Author Topic: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool  (Read 40500 times)

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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2016, 07:25 AM »
Ill still be buying some before I judge.

I do see the benefits to these and would like them to be cheaper over time.

 
I know a more complex fixing system will cost more but I dont mind paying a little more.


These types of fixings like Lamelo can soon add to the overall cost of the project.

So DominoFix look like they can become a cheap fixing system if demand for them grows.


I personally cant see why a dominofix can be made using the Festool Domino at its widest setting this will allow for a wider fixing to be used.
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Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2016, 07:27 AM »
Ill still be buying some before I judge.

I do see the benefits to these and would like them to be cheaper over time.

 
I know a more complex fixing system will cost more but I dont mind paying a little more.


These types of fixings like Lamelo can soon add to the overall cost of the project.

So DominoFix look like they can become a cheap fixing system if demand for them grows.


I personally cant see why a dominofix can be made using the Festool Domino at its widest setting this will allow for a wider fixing to be used.

Dominofix is made with the widest setting already

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2016, 07:32 AM »
I'm interested to see these in action. I was disappointed that Festool chose to release their connectors for the 700 before the 500 as I see sheet good construction as a much bigger use for such connectors.

However if this product doesn't have any pulling force I am struggling to see much in the way of real life applications. Exhibition display stands could be a possible market for exhibitors to flat pack the display stands but without any form of clamping force it seems that they could be a bit wobbly and loose, especially if regularly dismantled and reassembled.

Shame there wasn't some form of eccentric cam in the design instead of the screw.

We have tested and experimented with many different options on installing, connecting and many other functions with Dominofix. We choose for the one that worked out best in the overall picture.

Dominofix is designed for mostly furniture, cabinets, framework, ... an easy, cost-effective and fast way of assembling those.
An alternative option (but not the only one) for other similar connections on the market. Every connection has it pro's and cons.
Same in machines, go for a Festool Domino or for a Lamello.

It doesn't mean that we are not developing and looking in to market demand to have Dominofix connectors for different areas of application. But that progress depends on the demand.

As any product developer you would like to please everybody, but in reality it is different. But we do appreciate from everybody to have this kind of "wishlist" on what different kind of connectors should come on the market. It gives us a good idea of demand to develop extra models.

I understand that businesses have to make choices and can't please everyone all of the time. Choices such as choosing to develop fixings for the 500 before you move on to the 700, or choosing 10mm fixings before you release 8mm fixings, etc. Are all understandable business choices.

However having no clamping force, IMO isn't something that can be swept under the rug of not being able to please everyone, but more of an overarching flaw/omission in the design, because I can't imagine any application where people would complain about having their joints pulled a little bit tighter or having a bit more strength as a result.

I understand the price issue, but again this is an internal issue of investment capital and being able to afford to manufacture on a large scale so the individual cost to the end user isn't sky high, just because of s slightly more complex product that can clamp. IMO you needed to set the core functions and design parameters of the product and then work on how to get them manufactured at a reasonable price, not compromise on the core functionality to fit a MSRP.

I don't mean to be the bearer of negativity on someone who is trying to innovate, but I fear if you can't produce a product that can clamp and at a reasonable price someone else with deeper pockets to afford the tooling up costs/bulk quantity outsourcing for manufacture, will start producing them.

It has nothing to do with costs for that matter because it would barely affect it. "just swiping it under the rug" is not something we have done. There is bit more to it then just bringing the idea in to reality . It is affecting the other functions in the design as mentioned in the previous post:
The reason we couldn’t use the same tightening function is because of its size. If we would use that function the joint would not be stabile and will be moving/breaking. The Lamello is very wide compared to domino’s so the strength is in there making it possible to have this and still have a strong joint. The Festool ones have there depth and thickness to make it possible and strong.

We have had over a 100 prototypes with different designs for testing and fine tuning and seeing what works best. The clamping force was of course the initial idea, but it affected the strength of the parts in the slots to much and the strength and stability of the dowels.

But the traditional cam and pin of kitchen knock down fittings are also small like the domino and they function well. I'm also sure you have invested many hours into this project and will be able to competently objection handle any criticisms.

However I do think this is a product that has been released too early with too little development to make it into the product it truly needs to be. Though I do wish  you success in the hope that you will bring out a second more mature product that will satisfy A broader audience.

Once again, this has been tested. There has been once a connector for domino 500 with cam and pin. The problem was that the force from that weakens the male part in the slot. To have an integrated one, the Dominofix is not wide enough, it's already with the widest setting it would loose overall stability and strength of the joint..

I understand all these questions and arguments because we had all of those our selfl and we got an answer from with testing and prototypes.

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2016, 07:33 AM »
Ill still be buying some before I judge.

I do see the benefits to these and would like them to be cheaper over time.

 
I know a more complex fixing system will cost more but I dont mind paying a little more.


These types of fixings like Lamelo can soon add to the overall cost of the project.

So DominoFix look like they can become a cheap fixing system if demand for them grows.


I personally cant see why a dominofix can be made using the Festool Domino at its widest setting this will allow for a wider fixing to be used.

Dominofix is made with the widest setting already

Oh lol cheers  my bad!!
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Offline bobfog

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2016, 07:34 AM »
I'm interested to see these in action. I was disappointed that Festool chose to release their connectors for the 700 before the 500 as I see sheet good construction as a much bigger use for such connectors.

However if this product doesn't have any pulling force I am struggling to see much in the way of real life applications. Exhibition display stands could be a possible market for exhibitors to flat pack the display stands but without any form of clamping force it seems that they could be a bit wobbly and loose, especially if regularly dismantled and reassembled.

Shame there wasn't some form of eccentric cam in the design instead of the screw.

We have tested and experimented with many different options on installing, connecting and many other functions with Dominofix. We choose for the one that worked out best in the overall picture.

Dominofix is designed for mostly furniture, cabinets, framework, ... an easy, cost-effective and fast way of assembling those.
An alternative option (but not the only one) for other similar connections on the market. Every connection has it pro's and cons.
Same in machines, go for a Festool Domino or for a Lamello.

It doesn't mean that we are not developing and looking in to market demand to have Dominofix connectors for different areas of application. But that progress depends on the demand.

As any product developer you would like to please everybody, but in reality it is different. But we do appreciate from everybody to have this kind of "wishlist" on what different kind of connectors should come on the market. It gives us a good idea of demand to develop extra models.

I understand that businesses have to make choices and can't please everyone all of the time. Choices such as choosing to develop fixings for the 500 before you move on to the 700, or choosing 10mm fixings before you release 8mm fixings, etc. Are all understandable business choices.

However having no clamping force, IMO isn't something that can be swept under the rug of not being able to please everyone, but more of an overarching flaw/omission in the design, because I can't imagine any application where people would complain about having their joints pulled a little bit tighter or having a bit more strength as a result.

I understand the price issue, but again this is an internal issue of investment capital and being able to afford to manufacture on a large scale so the individual cost to the end user isn't sky high, just because of s slightly more complex product that can clamp. IMO you needed to set the core functions and design parameters of the product and then work on how to get them manufactured at a reasonable price, not compromise on the core functionality to fit a MSRP.

I don't mean to be the bearer of negativity on someone who is trying to innovate, but I fear if you can't produce a product that can clamp and at a reasonable price someone else with deeper pockets to afford the tooling up costs/bulk quantity outsourcing for manufacture, will start producing them.

It has nothing to do with costs for that matter because it would barely affect it. "just swiping it under the rug" is not something we have done. There is bit more to it then just bringing the idea in to reality . It is affecting the other functions in the design as mentioned in the previous post:
The reason we couldn’t use the same tightening function is because of its size. If we would use that function the joint would not be stabile and will be moving/breaking. The Lamello is very wide compared to domino’s so the strength is in there making it possible to have this and still have a strong joint. The Festool ones have there depth and thickness to make it possible and strong.

We have had over a 100 prototypes with different designs for testing and fine tuning and seeing what works best. The clamping force was of course the initial idea, but it affected the strength of the parts in the slots to much and the strength and stability of the dowels.

But the traditional cam and pin of kitchen knock down fittings are also small like the domino and they function well. I'm also sure you have invested many hours into this project and will be able to competently objection handle any criticisms.

However I do think this is a product that has been released too early with too little development to make it into the product it truly needs to be. Though I do wish  you success in the hope that you will bring out a second more mature product that will satisfy A broader audience.

Once again, this has been tested. There has been once a connector for domino 500 with cam and pin. The problem was that the force from that weakens the male part in the slot. To have an integrated one, the Dominofix is not wide enough, it's already with the widest setting it would loose overall stability and strength of the joint..

I understand all these questions and arguments because we had all of those our selfl and we got an answer from with testing and prototypes.

So it's an impossibility that can never be solved?

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2016, 08:25 AM »
I'm interested to see these in action. I was disappointed that Festool chose to release their connectors for the 700 before the 500 as I see sheet good construction as a much bigger use for such connectors.

However if this product doesn't have any pulling force I am struggling to see much in the way of real life applications. Exhibition display stands could be a possible market for exhibitors to flat pack the display stands but without any form of clamping force it seems that they could be a bit wobbly and loose, especially if regularly dismantled and reassembled.

Shame there wasn't some form of eccentric cam in the design instead of the screw.

We have tested and experimented with many different options on installing, connecting and many other functions with Dominofix. We choose for the one that worked out best in the overall picture.

Dominofix is designed for mostly furniture, cabinets, framework, ... an easy, cost-effective and fast way of assembling those.
An alternative option (but not the only one) for other similar connections on the market. Every connection has it pro's and cons.
Same in machines, go for a Festool Domino or for a Lamello.

It doesn't mean that we are not developing and looking in to market demand to have Dominofix connectors for different areas of application. But that progress depends on the demand.

As any product developer you would like to please everybody, but in reality it is different. But we do appreciate from everybody to have this kind of "wishlist" on what different kind of connectors should come on the market. It gives us a good idea of demand to develop extra models.

I understand that businesses have to make choices and can't please everyone all of the time. Choices such as choosing to develop fixings for the 500 before you move on to the 700, or choosing 10mm fixings before you release 8mm fixings, etc. Are all understandable business choices.

However having no clamping force, IMO isn't something that can be swept under the rug of not being able to please everyone, but more of an overarching flaw/omission in the design, because I can't imagine any application where people would complain about having their joints pulled a little bit tighter or having a bit more strength as a result.

I understand the price issue, but again this is an internal issue of investment capital and being able to afford to manufacture on a large scale so the individual cost to the end user isn't sky high, just because of s slightly more complex product that can clamp. IMO you needed to set the core functions and design parameters of the product and then work on how to get them manufactured at a reasonable price, not compromise on the core functionality to fit a MSRP.

I don't mean to be the bearer of negativity on someone who is trying to innovate, but I fear if you can't produce a product that can clamp and at a reasonable price someone else with deeper pockets to afford the tooling up costs/bulk quantity outsourcing for manufacture, will start producing them.

It has nothing to do with costs for that matter because it would barely affect it. "just swiping it under the rug" is not something we have done. There is bit more to it then just bringing the idea in to reality . It is affecting the other functions in the design as mentioned in the previous post:
The reason we couldn’t use the same tightening function is because of its size. If we would use that function the joint would not be stabile and will be moving/breaking. The Lamello is very wide compared to domino’s so the strength is in there making it possible to have this and still have a strong joint. The Festool ones have there depth and thickness to make it possible and strong.

We have had over a 100 prototypes with different designs for testing and fine tuning and seeing what works best. The clamping force was of course the initial idea, but it affected the strength of the parts in the slots to much and the strength and stability of the dowels.

But the traditional cam and pin of kitchen knock down fittings are also small like the domino and they function well. I'm also sure you have invested many hours into this project and will be able to competently objection handle any criticisms.

However I do think this is a product that has been released too early with too little development to make it into the product it truly needs to be. Though I do wish  you success in the hope that you will bring out a second more mature product that will satisfy A broader audience.

Once again, this has been tested. There has been once a connector for domino 500 with cam and pin. The problem was that the force from that weakens the male part in the slot. To have an integrated one, the Dominofix is not wide enough, it's already with the widest setting it would loose overall stability and strength of the joint..

I understand all these questions and arguments because we had all of those our selfl and we got an answer from with testing and prototypes.

So it's an impossibility that can never be solved?

Impossible is a big word but there are to many complications. For example the force on the male part that it breaks in the slot. Or you would need more tools then just the domino if you want a combination between domino dowel and the cam and pin.

The main application area are cabinets, but not the only one!. Most common thickness of sheets used is 16mm which downsizes the fastening possibilities of the male part. Therefore it is designed as how it is now. If we go for the option on using multiple tools for making the holes and slots it would loose the ergonomy and it will downsize our audience a lot.

If we would make something like that, it means that it would be made for the same application area as the festool ones. We don't want to compete against festool but want to add some alternative connections instead of using other brands.

If you look at festools application area, there is no way you can do it without the clamping force. That also explaines why they are designed as how they are and only for the 700.

Nevertheless I think it's a good idea that you bring up those arguments since it will explain questions for a lot of people :)

Offline Kev

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2016, 09:04 AM »
Here's a question from a different angle ...

Using 18mm veneered particle board, I would expect to be able to make a free standing shelf unit 900mm height, 300mm deep and 600mm wide .. consisting of nothing but 2 sides, top, bottom, plus two shelves and a small stabiliser at the front bottom ~75mm high. Made with dominos, glued and clamped I would expect this structure to be stable and solid without any back attached.

What would I expect if this same unit was made purely as a flat pack with Dominofix connectors? Would it be solid or would the joints allow the unit to wobble?

@Dominofix @bobfog

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2016, 10:54 AM »
Here's a question from a different angle ...

Using 18mm veneered particle board, I would expect to be able to make a free standing shelf unit 900mm height, 300mm deep and 600mm wide .. consisting of nothing but 2 sides, top, bottom, plus two shelves and a small stabiliser at the front bottom ~75mm high. Made with dominos, glued and clamped I would expect this structure to be stable and solid without any back attached.

What would I expect if this same unit was made purely as a flat pack with Dominofix connectors? Would it be solid or would the joints allow the unit to wobble?

@Dominofix @bobfog

I suppose it would still wobble if you used Dominofix alone or if not would do over time.

No reason you could add glue when using Dominofix. Benefit would be that you wouldnt require as many clamps. You would use your clamps at first then tigthen Dominofix and then remove clamps and move onto the next unit while the glue set.

This is what im hoping the Dominofix will help me with building units.

I have looked at other options and really Dominofix is currently the better options in my opinion.

Lamelo.... Requires special lamelo tool but also special tooling and attachment for my CNC and awkward programming in the cnc to perform the lamelo cutting action. It cant all be done on the CNC so its still two stage process.    So lamelo is extremly expensive set up plus the fixings are not cheap anyway and after all that its still a two stage proccess.

Rafix the best option for CNC its a one stage proccess which can be done entirely on CNC. However its a very noticeable fixing method.  So unless one face is hiden its an unsightly fixing. Plus it sits on the surface creating a lip.

Onto Dominofix.

Hard to comment until I have one to try out.

Like the Lamelo its a two stage proccess. 
However the small hole is just a simple drill and the slot is very easy and simple programming and tooling can cut the slot on the face.

The hole which the CNC drills can be used for the second stage proccess using the festool Domino this hole would act like refrence point for the festool Domino.   So set up costs and ease of use the Dominofix is miles ahead compared to Lamelo.

The Dominofix unlike the rafix is alot more discreet.

So looking at it the Dominofix has many benefits but like many have said and I have commented before the pulling force is the downer of the system
 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 10:57 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2016, 11:06 AM »
Here's a question from a different angle ...

Using 18mm veneered particle board, I would expect to be able to make a free standing shelf unit 900mm height, 300mm deep and 600mm wide .. consisting of nothing but 2 sides, top, bottom, plus two shelves and a small stabiliser at the front bottom ~75mm high. Made with dominos, glued and clamped I would expect this structure to be stable and solid without any back attached.

What would I expect if this same unit was made purely as a flat pack with Dominofix connectors? Would it be solid or would the joints allow the unit to wobble?

@Dominofix @bobfog

I suppose it would still wobble if you used Dominofix alone or if not would do over time.

No reason you could add glue when using Dominofix. Benefit would be that you wouldnt require as many clamps. You would use your clamps at first then tigthen Dominofix and then remove clamps and move onto the next unit while the glue set.

This is what im hoping the Dominofix will help me with building units.

I have looked at other options and really Dominofix is currently the better options in my opinion.

Lamelo.... Requires special lamelo tool but also special tooling and attachment for my CNC and awkward programming in the cnc to perform the lamelo cutting action. It cant all be done on the CNC so its still two stage process.    So lamelo is extremly expensive set up plus the fixings are not cheap anyway and after all that its still a two stage proccess.

Rafix the best option for CNC its a one stage proccess which can be done entirely on CNC. However its a very noticeable fixing method.  So unless one face is hiden its an unsightly fixing. Plus it sits on the surface creating a lip.

Onto Dominofix.

Hard to comment until I have one to try out.

Like the Lamelo its a two stage proccess. 
However the small hole is just a simple drill and the slot is very easy and simple programming and tooling can cut the slot on the face.

The hole which the CNC drills can be used for the second stage proccess using the festool Domino this hole would act like refrence point for the festool Domino.   So set up costs and ease of use the Dominofix is miles ahead compared to Lamelo.

The Dominofix unlike the rafix is alot more discreet.

So looking at it the Dominofix has many benefits but like many have said and I have commented before the pulling force is the downer of the system

You have summed up many reasons why we have developed the Dominofix, couldn't do it any better!  [big grin]

@Kev The Dominofix will hold it, but as @jmbfestool  mentioned it will be getting wobbly after a while. We always recommend on using a back with nails/screws or in a groove or if you would use two stabilisers of 120mm wide on the top and bottom with 2 Dominofix on each side, it also is not going to wobble (unless you are really forcing it, but then glued dominos/lamello/dowels will also start getting loose)

Offline bobfog

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2016, 11:18 AM »
Can I ask what exactly makes this better than using a normal domino and screw with a slightly offset hole to act as a draw bore tenon?

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2016, 11:24 AM »
Can I ask what exactly makes this better than using a normal domino and screw with a slightly offset hole to act as a draw bore tenon?

If you make a cabinet, you are not able to put a screw on both sides. If you try to put a screw in a 16mm sheet in the thickness, it will rip it apart. 

When your pieces are both in the same direction you can put a screw in the domino. But you will soon notice it will be very wobbly since the domino itself is not connected to your pieces.

I'm sure it is possible if you glue them and instead of a clamp use the screws.

Please try it out and you will understand what i mean  :)

Offline bobfog

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2016, 11:40 AM »
Yes I should have been more explicit. I meant with one side glued. I guess that wouldn't be glue less, which is half the point I guess.

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #102 on: July 04, 2016, 11:45 AM »
Yes I should have been more explicit. I meant with one side glued. I guess that wouldn't be glue less, which is half the point I guess.

No problem  :) But any way, some people prefer the one, some people prefer the other. Everybody has their favourites.
Time is running late here in Finland and its times to spend some quality time with my daughter. We are making a domino track from wooden Festool Dowels  [big grin]

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2016, 02:12 PM »
Can I ask what exactly makes this better than using a normal domino and screw with a slightly offset hole to act as a draw bore tenon?

Dont want to offend you but....... That ------^ is retarded
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Offline jimbo51

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2016, 04:29 PM »
One problem with the single screw draw bore idea is that all the force would be concentrated on the interface of the edge of the screw and 5-6 mm of wood (or plywood). The threads could act as little cutting edges if there was stress on the joint. This could cause the wood to weaken at the key holding area.


Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2016, 07:38 PM »
Do the Dominofix accept glue?

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2016, 12:24 AM »
One problem with the single screw draw bore idea is that all the force would be concentrated on the interface of the edge of the screw and 5-6 mm of wood (or plywood). The threads could act as little cutting edges if there was stress on the joint. This could cause the wood to weaken at the key holding area.

Hi,

It doesn't not affect to the wood because the Dominofix is attached with screws inside the slots.
There is no force/movement coming on the little hole in the wood where you put the locking screw

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2016, 12:25 AM »
Do the Dominofix accept glue?

If you would use some construction glue, yes. Not wood glue!

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2016, 01:21 AM »
Do the Dominofix accept glue?

If you would use some construction glue, yes. Not wood glue!

I dont know how snug the Dominofix are and if they are smooth or not but if it does have a little texture on the surface the wood glue will will act as a key and if it does have a little wiggle room the wood glue will set hard and elimante any remaining wiggle room which surly wil improve it slightly.

BUT!!  suggesting construction glue.....?  Is not a good idea at all in fact extremly bad Idea.  Look at some questions people ask you -----^  You will have less proffesional people in a mess.
Unless what you call construction glue is different to what we call construction glue.
Its far to thick! It sets a skin quickly and you wouldn't use it to glue two pieces of wood together.
So you would be applying wood glue to the edge and construction glue onto domiofix..... Pain in the  and a high risk of joint not pulling up or construction glue going everywhere which never wipes of easy on wood.

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Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2016, 01:31 AM »
Do the Dominofix accept glue?

If you would use some construction glue, yes. Not wood glue!

I dont know how snug the Dominofix are and if they are smooth or not but if it does have a little texture on the surface the wood glue will will act as a key and if it does have a little wiggle room the wood glue will set hard and elimante any remaining wiggle room which surly wil improve it slightly.

BUT!!  suggesting construction glue.....?  Is not a good idea at all in fact extremly bad Idea.  Look at some questions people ask you -----^  You will have less proffesional people in a mess.
Unless what you call construction glue is different to what we call construction glue.
Its far to thick! It sets a skin quickly and you wouldn't use it to glue two pieces of wood together.
So you would be applying wood glue to the edge and construction glue onto domiofix..... Pain in the  and a high risk of joint not pulling up or construction glue going everywhere which never wipes of easy on wood.

Then we have a different kind of construction glue :)
No glue is needed because of what you said, the texture on the sides makes the Dominofix fit nice and snug.

If you want that your joint is permanent, you can always add Festool wooden dowels and use Dominofix as a replacement for clamps, many of our clients are buying Dominofix for that reason. Or to have them easily assembled on the job site. The 8mm Dominofix is easily drilled with standard settings of the DF 500. The male part is drilled with 12mm dept and the female part with 28mm dept. With those same settings you drill holes for the 8x40 wooden dowels (they are actually 38mm long) For the 10mm Dominofix you would need to re-adjust your depth settings if you want to combine wooden dowels.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 01:33 AM by Dominofix »

Offline CrazyLarry

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2016, 03:31 AM »
I've looked in on this thread with quite a keen interest, I do think there is a market (or three) for connectors using DF500 size holes, leveraging the ease, accuracy and repeatability of the domino to build both kd fittings cabinets and hybrid ones.

That said this doesn't seem to be the product to do it. It seems a muddled fudge creating as many problems / steps as it solves failing to utilise the domino's strengths and diluting them in fact.

What I would have hoped for (expected) was a connector that needs no tooling other than the domino in my hands, needs no change of cutter and minimal number of setting changes for use with the wooden dowel either side of it... for example: panel A to panel B 5 domino holes in each joining edge, all depth x in A and depth y in B with wooden dowels to go in centre and outside holes, drill access hole for securing / tightening connectors with same domino bit only needing to change depth and edge offset once.

Fit two halves of connectors to either side, marry up panels, tighten connectors, check for true... done.

Any other pathway is more work than the existing options!!!

Having no cam or pulling force, needing to change settings and cutters, needing to use glue and clamps all mean you'ld be better off without the dominofix and using an existing option for example hafale red jig / drill for cam connectors and df500 for dominos, both set up once and needing no changes throughout.

Those with a CNC like JMB may have a different set of needs but I suspect there are more domino owners without a CNC than with :)

« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 11:47 AM by CrazyLarry »

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2016, 03:49 AM »
I've looked in on this thread with quite a keen interest, I do think there is a market (or three) for connectors using DF500 size holes, leveraging the ease, accuracy and repeatability of the domino to build both kd fittings cabinets and hybrid ones.

That said this doesn't seem to be the product to do it. It seems a muddled fudge creating as many problems / steps as it solves failing to utilise the domino's strengths and diluting them in fact.

What I would have hoped for (expected) was a connector that needs no tooling other than the domino in my hands, needs no change of cutter and minimal number of setting changes for use with the wooden dowel either side of it... for example: panel A to panel B 5 domino holes in each joining edge, all depth x in A and depth y in B with wooden dowels ito go n centre and outside holes, drill access hole for securing / tightening connectors with same domino bit only needing to change depth and edge offset once.

Fit two halves of connectors to either side, marry up panels, tighten connectors, check for true... done.

Any other pathway is more work than the existing options!!!

Having no cam or pulling force, needing to change settings and cutters, needing to use glue and clamps all mean you'ld be better off without the dominofix and using an existing option for example hafale red jig / drill for cam connectors and df500 for dominos, both set up once and needing no changes throughout.

Those with a CNC like JMB may have a different set of needs but I suspect there are more domino owners without a CNC than with :)

I don't really understand what you mean... There is no change in bits. There is no change in tools... The reason why there is no cam function has been explained in details... There is no glue needed...

What you posted:
Fit two halves of connectors to either side, marry up panels, tighten connectors, check for true... done.

Is the only thing you need to do with Dominofix and all drilling is done with standard depth settings...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 03:55 AM by Dominofix »

Offline CrazyLarry

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2016, 04:07 AM »

I don't really understand what you mean... There is no change in bits. There is no change in tools... The reason why there is no cam function has been explained in details... There is no glue needed...

What you posted:
Fit two halves of connectors to either side, marry up panels, tighten connectors, check for true... done.

Is the only thing you need to do with Dominofix and all drilling is done with standard depth settings...

Two scenarios:
1) two panels equal thickness (18mm (at least) is the norm unless you're trying to compete with ****** & *********)
right angles to one another. One depth for vert panel one depth for horiz, so only one setting change needed

2) two panels equal thickness edge to edge one depth fitting for all

Dominofix needs no more than this? But has no cam or pulling force and needs a drilling jig to fix with screws into both sides rather than using the domino to make neat matching holes? And will also need squares and clamps?

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2016, 04:38 AM »

I don't really understand what you mean... There is no change in bits. There is no change in tools... The reason why there is no cam function has been explained in details... There is no glue needed...

What you posted:
Fit two halves of connectors to either side, marry up panels, tighten connectors, check for true... done.

Is the only thing you need to do with Dominofix and all drilling is done with standard depth settings...

Two scenarios:
1) two panels equal thickness (18mm (at least) is the norm unless you're trying to compete with ****** & *********)
right angles to one another. One depth for vert panel one depth for horiz, so only one setting change needed

2) two panels equal thickness edge to edge one depth fitting for all

Dominofix needs no more than this? But has no cam or pulling force and needs a drilling jig to fix with screws into both sides rather than using the domino to make neat matching holes? And will also need squares and clamps?

Dominofix 8mm minimum thickness in material is 16mm (as mentioned on the website)
Dominofix 10mm minimum thickness in material 18mm (as mentioned on the website)

Scenario 1:

Depth for vertical panel (female part) is standard dept setting 28mm (no other depth possible)
Depth for horizontal panel (male part) is standard dept setting 12mm

Scenario 2:

Edge to edge: Female part has to be in 28mm dept. Male part can be also drilled in 28mm dept because the part cannot go deeper because of its form.

You need to drill a hole in only one slot. With opted for this because you now only get a small hole. You can also make a big hole with your domino, because the hole inside the wood does not affect the strength of the tightening but the Dominofix does.

It has no cam with clamping force, as mentioned in previous posts with the reasons why. It tightens because the holes are offset.

If you material is bend hard, which occurs sometimes with raw plywood, we advise to use a clamp before. When your material is more or less straight, the tightening screw pulls it on place.

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #114 on: July 05, 2016, 05:02 AM »
I also want to point out that we try to bring out a good product in addition to other alternatives on the market and to have an add on for Festool Domino DF 500 and alternative routed slots. We know that we cannot satisfy everybody. Some like Festool, Some like Lamello, Some like Mafell, Some like DeWalt, Some like boys, Some like girls...

Offline Kev

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #115 on: July 05, 2016, 05:12 AM »
I also want to point out that we try to bring out a good product in addition to other alternatives on the market and to have an add on for Festool Domino DF 500 and alternative routed slots. We know that we cannot satisfy everybody. Some like Festool, Some like Lamello, Some like Mafell, Some like DeWalt, Some like boys, Some like girls...

YEP - some people certainly do like different types of connectors [wink] [big grin]

Offline CrazyLarry

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2016, 05:21 AM »
Dominofix 8mm minimum thickness in material is 16mm (as mentioned on the website)
Dominofix 10mm minimum thickness in material 18mm (as mentioned on the website)

Scenario 1:

Depth for vertical panel (female part) is standard dept setting 28mm (no other depth possible)
Depth for horizontal panel (male part) is standard dept setting 12mm

Scenario 2:

Edge to edge: Female part has to be in 28mm dept. Male part can be also drilled in 28mm dept because the part cannot go deeper because of its form.

You need to drill a hole in only one slot. With opted for this because you now only get a small hole. You can also make a big hole with your domino, because the hole inside the wood does not affect the strength of the tightening but the Dominofix does.

It has no cam with clamping force, as mentioned in previous posts with the reasons why. It tightens because the holes are offset.

If you material is bend hard, which occurs sometimes with raw plywood, we advise to use a clamp before. When your material is more or less straight, the tightening screw pulls it on place.

Nowhere near as bad as I thought then. But it does still seem a little inelegant to me, pushfit connectors similar to jmb's suggestions (blum drawer gallery rail) to eliminate the screws and an allen key tightened cam or spline driven lock would give your product an undeniable edge.

Trying to be constuctive here... I like the idea and have looked at the previous attempts made by others but I can't help thinking a little more complexity in engineering will pay off in simplicity of use which would make it much more compelling especially from a commercial perspective.

Take the screws v cam / spline other lock / grab / expansion approach it's not just about whether clamping is necc in some cases or not.,..

Single frame 4 corners domiinofix needs 8 connectors, 32 body screws and 8 locking screws
A cam / spline / grab with a locking allen screw would only need 4 connectors the other 4 could be wooden dominos due to clamp action so there are only 4 screws to tighten 1/10th of the effort! Now make a dozen of those and you've saved a half day.

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2016, 05:33 AM »
Dominofix 8mm minimum thickness in material is 16mm (as mentioned on the website)
Dominofix 10mm minimum thickness in material 18mm (as mentioned on the website)

Scenario 1:

Depth for vertical panel (female part) is standard dept setting 28mm (no other depth possible)
Depth for horizontal panel (male part) is standard dept setting 12mm

Scenario 2:

Edge to edge: Female part has to be in 28mm dept. Male part can be also drilled in 28mm dept because the part cannot go deeper because of its form.

You need to drill a hole in only one slot. With opted for this because you now only get a small hole. You can also make a big hole with your domino, because the hole inside the wood does not affect the strength of the tightening but the Dominofix does.

It has no cam with clamping force, as mentioned in previous posts with the reasons why. It tightens because the holes are offset.

If you material is bend hard, which occurs sometimes with raw plywood, we advise to use a clamp before. When your material is more or less straight, the tightening screw pulls it on place.

Nowhere near as bad as I thought then. But it does still seem a little inelegant to me, pushfit connectors similar to jmb's suggestions (blum drawer gallery rail) to eliminate the screws and an allen key tightened cam or spline driven lock would give your product an undeniable edge.

Trying to be constuctive here... I like the idea and have looked at the previous attempts made by others but I can't help thinking a little more complexity in engineering will pay off in simplicity of use which would make it much more compelling especially from a commercial perspective.

Take the screws v cam / spline other lock / grab / expansion approach it's not just about whether clamping is necc in some cases or not.,..

Single frame 4 corners domiinofix needs 8 connectors, 32 body screws and 8 locking screws
A cam / spline / grab with a locking allen screw would only need 4 connectors the other 4 could be wooden dominos due to clamp action so there are only 4 screws to tighten 1/10th of the effort! Now make a dozen of those and you've saved a half day.


Push fit connectors are not strong enough in this case because of how the force is acting. A possibility was to have a push fit with a screw inside like some hinges, but having normal screws had a stronger results because of the thread. Again because of how the force acts, thats also why it is possible with hinges and drawers. To make a proper cam, there would be more space required in the models, which we don't have. We also had to make it so it would be good in an overall picture, if we would have gone for the cam, the joint itself would be very weak.

Dominofix is also not made for the heavy duty work such as for the Festool ones. We are also not planning to make any for the same application area's as Festool, we dont want to compete against them, but add an addition for Domino and an alternative to other brands.

Once we have them in stock we can make a detailed product video and it will explain a lot of things. We only have those models in a different material and we don't want to use them for the product videos.

I do really appreciate all those comments and questions!

As i posted in the Festool Talk Group on FB:
Hi guys! We need your help! For those that have been following the Dominofix topic on FOG have seen that there have been a lot of questions rising up about it. All have been answered but we would like to add an FAQ with those Q&A to our website.
The problem is that we see Dominofix from a different point of view then our clients because we have been working on it for almost a year so we kind of know it inside out and many things what are logic for us are of course not for the client. Please comment on this post any questions you might have so we know to add them on our FAQ page! I will also try to answer them all on here and FOG. Thanks a lot in advance!

Offline Kev

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2016, 06:01 AM »
Just a random thought while all this is going on ... a concealed Domino friendly hinge of some sort would be cool [wink] [big grin]

Offline Dominofix

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Re: Glue-less Domino Dowel for Festool
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2016, 06:04 AM »
Just a random thought while all this is going on ... a concealed Domino friendly hinge of some sort would be cool [wink] [big grin]

That's our next project depending on the success of these ones