Author Topic: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product  (Read 16134 times)

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Offline Richard/RMW

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Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2018, 07:22 AM »
Neil thanks for the testing/results. One of the best aspects of the squares is not even having to wonder if it.s square, i.e. I just attach and cut. If you have to stop and check the joined rails frequently just for peace of mind it will somewhat eliminate the benefits of their self aligning aspect.

Just my [2cents]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline NL-mikkla

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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2018, 09:45 AM »
LOL, simple adjustment to an old ongoing problem/discussion.
Festool must feel silly for not thinking of this solution.

Offline ChuckM

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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2018, 01:49 PM »
LOL, simple adjustment to an old ongoing problem/discussion.
Festool must feel silly for not thinking of this solution.
Big, bureaucratic companies are more prone to ignoring or missing opportunities to improve little things, while small, entrepreneurial businesses are more responsive to or quicker in responding to market feedback.

Offline TSO_Products

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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2018, 02:31 PM »
FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans

Offline Richard/RMW

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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2018, 03:36 PM »
Kudos Hans, well played. Hope your new design meets a set & forget standard, it will be a great addition to the product line.

RMW

FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ChuckM

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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2018, 03:42 PM »
No way a company such as Festool or Bosch or the like can respond to the market in a speedy manner like that.

By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 03:44 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Cochese

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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2018, 04:39 PM »
FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans

Man, while I'm disappointed that I can't order (literally had my card out), I appreciate the attention to detail.

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2018, 08:22 PM »
No way a company such as Festool or Bosch or the like can respond to the market in a speedy manner like that.

By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?

@ChuckM  - while it's off-topic for this thread let me share with you that BETA testing resulted in the addition of another feature benefit which is going back into machining the next btach of BETA test units. NO Launch date yet. Staytuned to TSO INSIDER newsletter  [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2018, 01:02 PM »
It seems to me that a design based on the Wedgelock product would be a better option. If only they were available in a suitable size.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2018, 01:32 PM »
It seems to me that a design based on the Wedgelock product would be a better option. If only they were available in a suitable size.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

@box185  - thank you for offering a helpful suggestion. We agree and we seriously looked at the wedge approach as well as other means of adjusting the crossection of the Connector. But very quickly the complexity, production cost and resulting selling price moved this out of final consideration. We're not afraid of revisiting any of these alternatives should we not be successful in producing a "TSO worthy" configuration of the current concept.

Keep the suggestions coming while we modify and test the current concept!
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2018, 02:02 PM »
more on the wedgelock concept:
here is a link with a more detailed illustration
                  http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks/-d-series.aspx

One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.

That said, the idea of searching for inspiration in unrelated technical fields is certainly the right one.
During the Cold War era the Soviet Union made a concerted effort to find ways to apply results of their space program research to other commercial applications. After "that"  Wall came down, this research effort became public. I took the opportunity to attend a day long training  session in  a Lockheed Martin conference room to familiarize myself with this approach to inventing solutions. Certainly opened my mind to always look much more broadly at possible solutions.

I could imagine that in the medical field there are methods and devices which could inspire. In our woodworking applications the challenge quickly narrows down to low product cost at (relatively) very low unit volume - which limits what you can spend on tooling.

Keep the ideas coming!

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2018, 02:57 PM »

One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.


It seems that the socket head could be accessible along the direction of the slot in the Festool Guide Rail using a ball driver - similar to some of the 80/20 connectors.

Among other applications, the Wedgelock product is used in military applications - holding circuit card assemblies in the equipment chassis. This application endures significant vibration testing without failure.

I agree that looking for solutions outside of the box is useful - one of the reasons that a forum is so valuable. Everyone has a different experience.

I’ve contacted the manufacturer of the Wedgelock to find out if the have other sizes available. The Festool application is probably larger than what they typically deal with, but I wanted to ask.

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2018, 03:32 PM »
@box185 - you're quite right that a ball driver with a long enough blade or a flexible shaft driver could be made to work. Where we derailed with the wedge or other expansion device was the cost imposed by market level pricing for such a low volume item in woodworking.
it would be interesting to see a proforma itemized list of parts with production and tooling cost for every single line item, plus tooling amortization and see what selling price would have to result.

Ask what the individual cost of the mass produced "D" Wedgelock is.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline rst

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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2018, 04:55 PM »
Whenever I design a jig or tool modification, I always subject it to the KISS principle, a philosophy very similar to Ocam's Razor... Keep It Simple Stupid.  It always amazes me how many things a designed in an overly complicated manner.  I sell service and repair Gyro Tech automatic doors.  The gearbox for their automatic swinging doors was the original non-hydraulic or air operated door opener.  It was designed by one man in the 60's and every part excepting the motor and controls is exactly like the original today.  How many designs can claim that...not even Festool.

Offline JD2720

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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2018, 06:36 PM »
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.


No alignment variation on inside extrusion
(Attachment Link)

Isn't the inside extrusion, where the saw rides, the only extrusion that needs to be in alignment?
That is where my alignment jigs mount.

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2018, 11:18 PM »
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.


No alignment variation on inside extrusion
(Attachment Link)

Isn't the inside extrusion, where the saw rides, the only extrusion that needs to be in alignment?
That is where my alignment jigs mount.

@JD2720  -You are correct to the extent  that you are talking about "lining up the two ends of the upside-down t-slot the saw rides on. That's the easy part. The challenge is to keep both tracks pointed, as perfectly as possible, in a straight line.

hope that helps clarify when we're talking about "aligning"

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2018, 12:13 AM »
I had some time this evening to look at pricing for the Wakefield-Vette Wedgelock products.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

I searched for the 426C7 series and found this

http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?2076899_g10e&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvrDhyOHG3wIVhLrACh34cQgTEAkYAiABEgIQOfD_BwE

Another search for the 422C-480UMB-CKP product ( slightly narrower ) yielded this.

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiinc/en/apps/part-detail.html?partsNumber=422C-480UMB-CKP&mfgShortname=WKV&utm=ga-shopping&channel=ppc&source=google&campaigns=tti-brand&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_s-RvuTG3wIVE57ACh1qXg8wEAkYASABEgJfqvD_BwE

Both of these parts are too small for the Festool Rail Guide, but this information is provided for reference. It does seem that a narrow strip of material could be attached to the Wedgelock, making it fit into the Festool Guide Rail.

Offline Gregor

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« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2018, 07:28 AM »
While the principle of the wedgelock is great when your want to apply pressure along a seam (or a card in a holder) it might fall short when it comes to aligning the t-slots at the seam between two FS rails. This would need some testing.

But to have a rail connector operate on the sides of the t-slots (instead of top and bottom, as all current solutions do) would IMHO be a good idea to follow as the sides of the slot have to be parallel and in one line to get a straight cut.

A slight deviation in the vertical direction would worst case hinder movement of the saw (it might catch on the ledge) if there would be an offset at the rails seam, but that shouldn't happen when the rails lie on a flat surface when being connected and the flexibility of the rail itself should compensate for any slight non-parallelism on the vertical axis...

Offline skids

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« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2019, 10:19 AM »
good test Neilc...I think the very fact the rails move is what makes these TSO connectors more valuable..Every time you move them easier to square them back up with out additional straight edges.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realise it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it

Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2019, 02:10 PM »
The latest generation of the GRC-12 Connector (REV C)
began shipping from TSO April 29, 2019. A refined connector-body profile is accompanied by the most noticeable change – custom set screws -reflecting customer suggestions since the release of the original configuration:

A large “flat-foot” Set Screw which retracts into the counterbored Connector body has replaced the original blunt tip set screw. No more divits in guide rail t-slots. More specifics can be seen at https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/grc-12-self-aligning-guide-rail-connectors/

And here’s a tip for new users:
When first using the Connector set, the retracted Set Screws need to be loosened by turning the 3mm ball-tipped Allen Hex Driver clockwise. When packaged, these set screws were tightened to keep them from vibrating out during shipment. Tightened a bit too much, it turns out. This misled some customers thinking there is something wrong because of the force required to break them loose.
The nature of a ball driver means there is intentional play between the Driver and the hex-socket  compared to using a straight Driver or L-wrench. We are now retracting the Set Screws only lightly into the Connector body

Hans
PS: a picture I tried to attach to this post earlier seems to have caused an upload problem -I'll try the picture again separately
TSOproducts.com

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Offline TSO Products

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« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2019, 02:41 PM »
one more try to upload the GRC-12 REV C picture . . .
Hans
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Bob D.

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2019, 07:26 AM »
The flat heads on the screws will not bite into the rail, which may be both good and bad. Good as it does not damage or deface the rail (inside the alignment grooves), and bad because they will not have the same 'grab' as a cup point set screw does. Once you snug the stock set screws down they are less likely to slip I would think. I wonder if adding a cross hatch pattern to the flat face of the TSO screws would be enough to eliminate the slip. Of course that would mean it might Mar the surface of the rail inside the grooves but it would be less damage than done by the stock Festool set screws I think.

I just received mine yesterday but haven't even opened the box, busy with yard work yesterday. Maybe later today I will get to check them out.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2019, 08:34 AM »
@Bob D. – thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain the engineering decision behind the GRC-12 a little bit more:
To begin with – the job of any connector is to keep the rails from shifting horizontally. There is no appreciable lateral force to pull the guide rails apart.

Traditional guide rail connectors
rely on friction between the connector body and screws (or Makita flat plate). To retain guide rails in alignment these connectors need to be kept from sliding horizontally Left/Right.

The GRC-12 Connectors oppose mis-aligning horizontal guide rail forces by locking the Connector body into the opening of the guide rail t-slot. It accomplishes this by using a jack screw effect from what used to be a set screw shape. Our special “Flat Foot” Screws need only to eliminate vertical clearance when snugged up. The actual “holding” is done by the inability of the interlocking shapes of the GRC-12 and the guide rail t-slot to move laterally while in compression.

And thank you for your purchase, Bob [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline reidbailey

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2019, 11:59 AM »
I received my connectors and accompanying ball Allen wrench this week. It appears that the Allen wrench is too small for the screws. I know with a ball head there will be play but this has no purchase to turn a screw.  I emailed a video to support earlier this week but have yet to hear back.

I also know I can use a different sized Allen wrench but really like the accompanying one sent with the connectors.

Has anyone else experienced this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Koamolly

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2019, 12:41 PM »
I received my connectors and accompanying ball Allen wrench this week. It appears that the Allen wrench is too small for the screws. I know with a ball head there will be play but this has no purchase to turn a screw.  I emailed a video to support earlier this week but have yet to hear back.

I also know I can use a different sized Allen wrench but really like the accompanying one sent with the connectors.

Has anyone else experienced this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes.  I ordered two sets of connectors.  One set the Allen wrench was too small, one set it was the correct size.  Was going to send an email with photos.


Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2019, 01:05 PM »
I received my connectors and accompanying ball Allen wrench this week. It appears that the Allen wrench is too small for the screws. I know with a ball head there will be play but this has no purchase to turn a screw.  I emailed a video to support earlier this week but have yet to hear back.

I also know I can use a different sized Allen wrench but really like the accompanying one sent with the connectors.
Has anyone else experienced this?
@Bob D. - @reidbailey – and other GRC-12 purchasers

Loose fit of the Eklind 3mm Allen Ball Driver into Special Foot set screw:
we are aware of the issue and will work with the Eklind to see what solution we can come up with quickly. We found that the Screw Socket and Ball Driver dimensions appear to be running at their opposite tolerance limits creating excessive clearance.

The first production lot of the new GRC-12 (REV C) was packaged with the Special Screws retracted into the body and tightened (too much) to keep them from vibrating loose in shipping. So to get started after unpacking a hard right hand twist on the driver or L-wrench is required the first time. Actually an L-wrench makes breaking it loose easier.

If you encounter any difficulties, email to info@tsoproducts.com – our ZENdesk customer service system creates a ticket and a record for us to respond to without risk of falling through the cracks at our end.

Our apology for this inconvenience.
Hans and Eric 

Offline Cheese

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2019, 01:28 PM »
Also look at the Eklind handle top/end there should be a 3 engraved on the end.

Offline Bob D.

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« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2019, 01:43 PM »
Thanks, I emailed you earlier today. I also found the ball to be undersize and the shaft slightly oversize when compared to my Elkind 3mm L wrench. Also, the hex in the screws seems slightly oversize. Tough to take an inside measure using a 6 inch micrometer but I came up with 3.14mm. I don't know what the tolerance is for a socket head screw but this seems high. Still the supplied wrench is off and that's not TSO's fault, they didn't manufacture them.

I thought when I opened the box; "wow, how about that, TSO sent along a made in USA hex driver from Elkind". One minute later my joy was neutralized as the ball spun around inside the hex. I did find that the T15 Torx driver on my Festool Toolie multi function tool fits snugly as does a standard 3mm hex wrench.
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Offline Bob D.

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2019, 01:44 PM »
Also look at the Eklind handle top/end there should be a 3 engraved on the end.

Yes, mine has the number 3. The ball is so small I was thinking maybe it was a 2.5mm with a 3mm handle by mistake.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Koamolly

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Re: Latest GRC-12 TSO Product
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2019, 01:53 PM »
Both mine say 3 on handle.