Author Topic: Latest TSO Product  (Read 7436 times)

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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2018, 07:22 AM »
Neil thanks for the testing/results. One of the best aspects of the squares is not even having to wonder if it.s square, i.e. I just attach and cut. If you have to stop and check the joined rails frequently just for peace of mind it will somewhat eliminate the benefits of their self aligning aspect.

Just my [2cents]

RMW
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline NL-mikkla

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2018, 09:45 AM »
LOL, simple adjustment to an old ongoing problem/discussion.
Festool must feel silly for not thinking of this solution.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2018, 01:49 PM »
LOL, simple adjustment to an old ongoing problem/discussion.
Festool must feel silly for not thinking of this solution.
Big, bureaucratic companies are more prone to ignoring or missing opportunities to improve little things, while small, entrepreneurial businesses are more responsive to or quicker in responding to market feedback.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2018, 02:31 PM »
FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans

Offline Richard/RMW

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2018, 03:36 PM »
Kudos Hans, well played. Hope your new design meets a set & forget standard, it will be a great addition to the product line.

RMW

FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans
As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 934
Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2018, 03:42 PM »
No way a company such as Festool or Bosch or the like can respond to the market in a speedy manner like that.

By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 03:44 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 309
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2018, 04:39 PM »
FOG Members and customers:
We appreciate the comments and feedback. Neil’s report is very helpful, too – thank you. 
We made a mistake in judgement to start shipping because we got such excellent results in testing- obviously not sufficiently “life-like” testing – Lesson learned:
                                     no new TSO products go into production without outside BETA testing.

Based on what we have learned, we launched an initiative to test further design refinements.  When we have new parts to BETA test, we will put them in the hands of volunteer individuals, including some current purchasers, to see how far we can improve on the original design.

Meanwhile we have stopped accepting orders and notified purchasers of this product. If we can demonstrate in BETA testing that we have in fact achieved the desired improvements we will exchange customer owned GRC-12’s at no charge before resuming production shipments. Customers who wish to return their GRC-12 will of course get a refund with free return shipping.

The first step is to get to next design revision and complete testing. We expect this will take us into February. Meanwhile, thank you for your continued support.

Hans

Man, while I'm disappointed that I can't order (literally had my card out), I appreciate the attention to detail.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2018, 08:22 PM »
No way a company such as Festool or Bosch or the like can respond to the market in a speedy manner like that.

By the way, a while back, TSO has indicated a new Domino Joiner accessory is being worked on. Any update on that (we don't know what it is or what it does based on the scan info. provided at that time)?

@ChuckM  - while it's off-topic for this thread let me share with you that BETA testing resulted in the addition of another feature benefit which is going back into machining the next btach of BETA test units. NO Launch date yet. Staytuned to TSO INSIDER newsletter  [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2018, 01:02 PM »
It seems to me that a design based on the Wedgelock product would be a better option. If only they were available in a suitable size.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2018, 01:32 PM »
It seems to me that a design based on the Wedgelock product would be a better option. If only they were available in a suitable size.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

@box185  - thank you for offering a helpful suggestion. We agree and we seriously looked at the wedge approach as well as other means of adjusting the crossection of the Connector. But very quickly the complexity, production cost and resulting selling price moved this out of final consideration. We're not afraid of revisiting any of these alternatives should we not be successful in producing a "TSO worthy" configuration of the current concept.

Keep the suggestions coming while we modify and test the current concept!
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2018, 02:02 PM »
more on the wedgelock concept:
here is a link with a more detailed illustration
                  http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks/-d-series.aspx

One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.

That said, the idea of searching for inspiration in unrelated technical fields is certainly the right one.
During the Cold War era the Soviet Union made a concerted effort to find ways to apply results of their space program research to other commercial applications. After "that"  Wall came down, this research effort became public. I took the opportunity to attend a day long training  session in  a Lockheed Martin conference room to familiarize myself with this approach to inventing solutions. Certainly opened my mind to always look much more broadly at possible solutions.

I could imagine that in the medical field there are methods and devices which could inspire. In our woodworking applications the challenge quickly narrows down to low product cost at (relatively) very low unit volume - which limits what you can spend on tooling.

Keep the ideas coming!

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2018, 02:57 PM »

One of the challenges TSO faced in choosing the design direction was the fact that our Connector would need to be adjustable from the "side' of the assembly - rather than in the preferred longtitudinal direction. The wedgelock design as you can see from the exploded catalog view is aleady a complex set of parts in its existing arrangement. Now add the need for adjustment from the side and you can see why we felt we should move on to other approaches.


It seems that the socket head could be accessible along the direction of the slot in the Festool Guide Rail using a ball driver - similar to some of the 80/20 connectors.

Among other applications, the Wedgelock product is used in military applications - holding circuit card assemblies in the equipment chassis. This application endures significant vibration testing without failure.

I agree that looking for solutions outside of the box is useful - one of the reasons that a forum is so valuable. Everyone has a different experience.

I’ve contacted the manufacturer of the Wedgelock to find out if the have other sizes available. The Festool application is probably larger than what they typically deal with, but I wanted to ask.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2018, 03:32 PM »
@box185 - you're quite right that a ball driver with a long enough blade or a flexible shaft driver could be made to work. Where we derailed with the wedge or other expansion device was the cost imposed by market level pricing for such a low volume item in woodworking.
it would be interesting to see a proforma itemized list of parts with production and tooling cost for every single line item, plus tooling amortization and see what selling price would have to result.

Ask what the individual cost of the mass produced "D" Wedgelock is.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline rst

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2018, 04:55 PM »
Whenever I design a jig or tool modification, I always subject it to the KISS principle, a philosophy very similar to Ocam's Razor... Keep It Simple Stupid.  It always amazes me how many things a designed in an overly complicated manner.  I sell service and repair Gyro Tech automatic doors.  The gearbox for their automatic swinging doors was the original non-hydraulic or air operated door opener.  It was designed by one man in the 60's and every part excepting the motor and controls is exactly like the original today.  How many designs can claim that...not even Festool.

Offline JD2720

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2018, 06:36 PM »
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.


No alignment variation on inside extrusion
(Attachment Link)

Isn't the inside extrusion, where the saw rides, the only extrusion that needs to be in alignment?
That is where my alignment jigs mount.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2018, 11:18 PM »
I put the GRC-12 connectors on a pair of 1080 guide rails.


No alignment variation on inside extrusion
(Attachment Link)

Isn't the inside extrusion, where the saw rides, the only extrusion that needs to be in alignment?
That is where my alignment jigs mount.

@JD2720  -You are correct to the extent  that you are talking about "lining up the two ends of the upside-down t-slot the saw rides on. That's the easy part. The challenge is to keep both tracks pointed, as perfectly as possible, in a straight line.

hope that helps clarify when we're talking about "aligning"

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline box185

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2018, 12:13 AM »
I had some time this evening to look at pricing for the Wakefield-Vette Wedgelock products.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/products/accessories/wedgelocks.aspx

I searched for the 426C7 series and found this

http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?2076899_g10e&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvrDhyOHG3wIVhLrACh34cQgTEAkYAiABEgIQOfD_BwE

Another search for the 422C-480UMB-CKP product ( slightly narrower ) yielded this.

https://www.ttiinc.com/content/ttiinc/en/apps/part-detail.html?partsNumber=422C-480UMB-CKP&mfgShortname=WKV&utm=ga-shopping&channel=ppc&source=google&campaigns=tti-brand&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_s-RvuTG3wIVE57ACh1qXg8wEAkYASABEgJfqvD_BwE

Both of these parts are too small for the Festool Rail Guide, but this information is provided for reference. It does seem that a narrow strip of material could be attached to the Wedgelock, making it fit into the Festool Guide Rail.

Offline Gregor

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2018, 07:28 AM »
While the principle of the wedgelock is great when your want to apply pressure along a seam (or a card in a holder) it might fall short when it comes to aligning the t-slots at the seam between two FS rails. This would need some testing.

But to have a rail connector operate on the sides of the t-slots (instead of top and bottom, as all current solutions do) would IMHO be a good idea to follow as the sides of the slot have to be parallel and in one line to get a straight cut.

A slight deviation in the vertical direction would worst case hinder movement of the saw (it might catch on the ledge) if there would be an offset at the rails seam, but that shouldn't happen when the rails lie on a flat surface when being connected and the flexibility of the rail itself should compensate for any slight non-parallelism on the vertical axis...

Offline skids

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Re: Latest TSO Product
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2019, 10:19 AM »
good test Neilc...I think the very fact the rails move is what makes these TSO connectors more valuable..Every time you move them easier to square them back up with out additional straight edges.
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