Author Topic: NEW! Festool CT Cyclone Dust Separator + New Accessories Coming Fall 2018 (US)  (Read 6480 times)

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Offline RobBob

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Tough crowd. [big grin] Again, I think we're talking about semantics here. Call it a dust extracticator, coarse particle catcher, debris toilet, sawdust sanitizer, whatever. It captures coarse dust, saves on bags no matter what you call it. Feel free to submit your own ideas for what to call it.

Here are some pics of the guts.

The most effective cyclone geometry is a 3:1 height:width ratio, which is why clearvues are so tall and why laguna DCs get such crummy reviews. The design of this will induce a "cyclonic airflow" but it's far more like a baffled trashcan separator than it is a cyclone... i'll predict here + now that a dust deputy will outperform it both from fines collection as well as from minimizing static pressure loss.

not saying it won't be effective, but like you say - semantics. If they're going to use the word Cyclone, we're going to judge it on that basis ;)

Not everyone has the ceiling height for the tall cyclones.  The latest generation of Laguna cyclones get good reviews.  I'm very happy with mine.

I am sure the tall cyclones do have better sepration than the shorter cyclones, but we are talking small differences that do not matter to the home hobbiest. 

The Festool "cyclone" looks like it has an additional disk or plate that may contribute to better seperation.  The 3hp Laguna dust collectors also have an additional part that some people call the "restrictor plate".  My guess is that these extra parts contribute to evening out the differences between the tall and short cyclones.

Collect as much dust as possible at the source, wear a dust mask and use a whole shop air filter.  You will be fine.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I'm talking about the ratio and not the overall size. Oneida's Dust Deputy is still a true cyclone, despite its small size. The festool solution is more like a Thien baffle, where the cyclonic action is induced. A "true" cyclone works so well because the air accelerates downwards so there's more "pull" on the big stuff and the fines as well.

Like I say, I'm not saying it won't work for what it is - many people are happy with their Thien baffles. But when they use the word "cyclone" in their marketing, with the price point they've got, it instantly makes a lot of people compare it to actual cyclones. I for one will be very interested to see a comparison with a Dust Deputy

Yes, I know you were talking about the ratio.  That's why I used the words "tall" and "short".  Do you like "long" and "Squatty" better?

I have a Dust Deputy on my shop vac and an Ultimate Dust Deputy on my Festool CT26.  Neither of these Dust Deputies perform any better at dust separation than my Laguna 3hp HEPA dust collector. There are ways to mitigate the differences in dust separation between the ideal and the less than ideal cyclone ratios.

Stop maligning tools that you have not used based on theory. 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 08:45 AM by RobBob »

Offline guitarchitect

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Yes, I know you were talking about the ratio.  That's why I used the words "tall" and "short".  Do you like "long" and "Squatty" better?

I have a Dust Deputy on my shop vac and an Ultimate Dust Deputy on my Festool CT26.  Neither of these Dust Deputies perform any better at dust separation than my Laguna 3hp HEPA dust collector. There are ways to mitigate the differences in dust separation between the ideal and the less than ideal cyclone ratios.

Stop maligning tools that you have not used based on theory.

You said "Not everyone has room for a clearvue" when I had the dust deputy in mind, that's why I clarified.

I'm not maligning anything - Shane said it was all semantics and my point was that, sure - it is. If they're going to use the term cyclone, it's going to be judged on that basis. I said that I look forward to seeing the comparisons, because that's where the proof will lie (especially for those that don't trust the math).

Offline Gregor

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I've gotten confirmation that this is a true cyclone design, not a Thein baffle.
Dosn't match
I read on the Festool website 95% for wood dust from routers and saws, 80% for concrete grinders
as efficiency for a 'true cyclone design' is 99.9+% (of all fractions, not only the billard balls you suck up).

Stop maligning tools that you have not used based on theory.
Adding 'cyclone' to 'CT dust separator' is as misleading as adding 'CNC' to the existing 'OF 1400'.

We're not bashing the tool, only the marketing in the wording.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:16 PM by Gregor »

Offline Koamolly

  • Posts: 50
That's not what I'm seeing.  I'm seeing particles moving around from air turbulence.  I agree with others, I think "cyclone" is a stretch here.

Isn’t whatever “cyclone” action and debris separation taking place in the part you don’t see?  The clear bin is just to hold the debris that has already been removed and what a person sees is probably not an indication of what is happening above it.

Offline RobBob

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I do not see anything in the definition of a cyclone that mentions the "efficiency for a 'true cyclone design' is 99.9+%", or anything about a manmade device or the size, shape, design of parts or materials used in such a device.

"A cyclone is an air mass that rotates around a strong center of low atmospheric pressure. Cyclones are characterized by inward spiraling winds that rotate about a zone of low pressure."

I think some of you have lost sight of what a dust separator's (ie: cyclone) purpose is within the context of woodworking.  You can debate the relative merits and efficiencies of different designs, but it seems to me that you are arguing about very small differences.

The point is that the expensive vac bag and filter will not be replaced as often.  Practically any design will be better than not having a dust separator/cyclone at all.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 03:41 PM by RobBob »

Offline guitarchitect

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The point is that the expensive vac bag and filter will not be replaced as often.  Practically any design will be better than not having a dust separator/cyclone at all.

Happy to agree to disagree about that - the entire reason I started to comment about it is because you can significantly degrade the performance of your DC to capture fines with a poorly designed separator - I'll take emptying-more-often over a big SP loss any day of the week. Fine dust is the biggest threat to any woodworker, so I really do hope that the Festool design deals with the shortcomings of a typical baffled separator - time will tell.

Offline SRSemenza

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The point is that the expensive vac bag and filter will not be replaced as often.  Practically any design will be better than not having a dust separator/cyclone at all.

Happy to agree to disagree about that - the entire reason I started to comment about it is because you can significantly degrade the performance of your DC to capture fines with a poorly designed separator - I'll take emptying-more-often over a big SP loss any day of the week. Fine dust is the biggest threat to any woodworker, so I really do hope that the Festool design deals with the shortcomings of a typical baffled separator - time will tell.

Exactly. lots of educated guessing and speculation going on. Nothing wrong with that, but...............  When someone in Europe gets one we will know a bit more.

Seth



Offline RobBob

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The point is that the expensive vac bag and filter will not be replaced as often.  Practically any design will be better than not having a dust separator/cyclone at all.

Happy to agree to disagree about that - the entire reason I started to comment about it is because you can significantly degrade the performance of your DC to capture fines with a poorly designed separator - I'll take emptying-more-often over a big SP loss any day of the week. Fine dust is the biggest threat to any woodworker, so I really do hope that the Festool design deals with the shortcomings of a typical baffled separator - time will tell.

Show me three dust separators available at the retail level that cause "significantly degraded performance of your DC."

Offline guitarchitect

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The point is that the expensive vac bag and filter will not be replaced as often.  Practically any design will be better than not having a dust separator/cyclone at all.

Happy to agree to disagree about that - the entire reason I started to comment about it is because you can significantly degrade the performance of your DC to capture fines with a poorly designed separator - I'll take emptying-more-often over a big SP loss any day of the week. Fine dust is the biggest threat to any woodworker, so I really do hope that the Festool design deals with the shortcomings of a typical baffled separator - time will tell.

Show me three dust separators available at the retail level that cause "significantly degraded performance of your DC."

You've seen trashcan separators, right? That hits your DC significantly. Is it better than nothing? In my estimation - no.
The other unit discussed already is the Thien baffle - while there's potential for it to work very well, it relies upon a very well-built unit to be most effective... and it's still not as good as a DD from most reports/tests. In which case, you're better off changing bags more often, and improving the dust shrouds at your (non-festool) tools.
As I say - time will tell re: the CT Separator...

Offline RKA

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Well there can be a significant difference between these different designs.  In my case, I would love to attach something small when I'm dealing with drywall dust because otherwise it clogs the bags, but if the "cyclone" isn't efficient enough to pick up that fine dust, it's no good to me, I'm better off prematurely tossing the bags when small job is done, even though they are largely empty.  I'm probably the exception.  Festool is aiming at the contractor who goes through 10 bags a month.  This new fangled contraption will probably reduce that to less than one bag a month.

As far as differences between these portable units, this is the only test that comes to mind, but it does show the difference in the efficiency of a few different units.  Whether that qualifies as "significant" depends on your point of view.  Obviously not everyone has my use case in mind. 

Start at 12:00 if you want to get to the point. 


And that clearvue mini was eventually redesigned to have a longer cyclone to match the Oneida's proportions and his update indicated it performed equally to the Oneida after that update (where before the update it didn't perform as well). 

-Raj

Offline Cheese

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Well, I saw it in action today at the Road Show at Betterley Tools. It was pretty slick, they had it hooked up to a Planex sanding drywall. What was also nice is that the clear plastic boxes don't need to always be used, you can attach the upper half to the lower half which makes for a lot shorter profile. You'd just need to empty more often. [big grin]  It's especially well suited for mobile applications.  [cool] very  [cool]
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 07:59 PM by Cheese »

Offline guitarchitect

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And that clearvue mini was eventually redesigned to have a longer cyclone to match the Oneida's proportions and his update indicated it performed equally to the Oneida after that update (where before the update it didn't perform as well).

Wow, you weren't kidding - the new CV06 outperformed the dust deputy, I'd say!

This is also an interesting comparison - a homemade Thien baffle versus a cyclone
http://www.ycmt2.com/thien-baffle-vs-cyclone-efficiency-comparison/

The thien baffle caused a 47% reduction in airflow, whereas the cyclone caused a 24% loss. I would call a 47% loss "significant", and that's why I made my statement about changing bags more often being better than a baffle in some cases... I really do believe that you'll put more dust into the air if you halve your airflow, unless you have extremely good collection at the source AND your airflow is enormous and overkill to begin with - which is rarely the case for a home shop. 

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: NEW! Festool CT Cyclone Dust Separator - SHIPPING MONDAY (US)
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2018, 09:43 PM »
Just a friendly reminder that the CT Cyclone and other new Festool items begin shipping on Monday. Order now for fast, free shipping.

Have questions? Post them here and we'll get them answered for you.
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Online Farming_Sawyer

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I'm really looking forward to trying this. I work on jobsites where not having huge amounts of shavings, drywall bits and sawdust fill up the extractor bag quickly and degrade sander dust collecting is a must.  The light, portable nature of the "cyclone" will be great. After watching New Brit Workshop's review of it I'm sold. Anything that presorts debris and makes it less expensive and easier to keep jobsite and work areas clean is great. And with 30days to beat the snot out of it and test under heavy conditions.... Why not.
CT 26E, RO125, sys-mft, sys-toolbox, a bunch of 30 year old tools I'm looking to replace.

Offline Shane Holland

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If you missed out on the Limited Edition SYS MINI Centrotec Set (203815), we have a few units remaining before they are completely sold out. Once they're gone, that's it. No more will be available.

Order the Festool MINI Systainer Centrotec Set
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Offline Shane Holland

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Everyone, just a reminder that the much-anticipated new Festool CT Cyclone and other new Festool products begin shipping immediately tomorrow, Monday, October 1st!
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Offline rst

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I received notice that my cyclone and mini Centrotec set had shipped today.  Going to interesting to see how well it separates plastics chips as I cut more of that than anything else.  I'll be able to compare it to the three Oneida's that I use.