Author Topic: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada  (Read 12845 times)

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Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2017, 05:45 PM »


@charley1968 My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  [/url]

With due respect, that is hair-splitting.

I am not saying TSO Products is wrong in its decision to sell direct or not to use a distributor, but that could be an incentive for someone else (I don't know who produces the alternative square) to come in legally in Canada to fill that void. Why TSO Products doesn't want to have a distributor in Canada or anywhere else outside the US is not important as it is its marketing right. Yet, if they were not seeing the alternative (or copycat as some put it) coming, they had themselves to answer to.

Sooner or later, someone within or outside North America would find a manufacturer in China or Taiwan and mass produce something similar and sell them outside the US -- legally. $200 Cdn (shipping included) is big incentive. They can produce and sell a copycat for $120 Cdn or even $100 Cdn to Europe (where Festool is common) or Australia and still make a decent profit.

May be someone is already doing that....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:47 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2017, 08:14 PM »
@Dan Clermont ,  I want to compliment you for they way you have responded.  You have always been a class act.

I am sure that the majority of members here now do not know that you were one of the original team of Members here who visited a training center and got hands on time with some new to market tools.  I am sure that not many know that you became a Festool dealer after your participation here and that trip.  Many here probably have never read a post of yours prior to you becoming a dealer when you spent lots of time helping out newbies like me.

Thank you for being YOU!  The real issue isn't with you but with the producer of the tool.

Guess you are celebrating your ten years here also!

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Baartman

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2017, 09:46 PM »
I'll echo this sentiment, I order from Ultimate tools and am happy with the service I receive. Last order they took the time to contact me and inform me of an opportunity to upgrade to airstream batteries. The order came without the FSK rail by accident, and when I called, without me asking, they overnight shipped the rail.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2017, 01:38 AM »
To classy for me. If Dan did not receive a formal cease and desist form TSO he should not pull a darn thing. I wouldn't let a few posters railroad me into removing a product. I am hoping Dan didn't react without TSO contacting him and asking for  removal becasue if they didn't care no one else should.

Dan Clermont has been a name on this forum as long as I remember, a good poster and I feel bad a few guys here called his ethics into question.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Nesting

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 06:10 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it gets to the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 12:15 PM by Nesting »

Offline clark_fork

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2017, 09:11 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it hits the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.

Video available on this website: http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE


I am not sure I grasped the 45° cut feature until seeing this video.


http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE
Clark Fork

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Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2017, 12:36 PM »
There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2017, 12:52 PM »
the angle on the GRS-16 is intentionally not 45 degrees.
 
The resulting reference edge becomes so short that accuracy degrades seriously. The same thing is true of using the short parallel edge as PE style feature .By not making it a specific angle we wanted to preclude creating the false impression that this is really a practical  feature.
We actually have CAD models of such a tool. The idea was also suggested by a toolmaker customer. Not a new idea at all.


Expect a  separate response form us on the broader topic of imitation in a separate post into the weekend when we have time to respond thoughtfully.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Nesting

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2017, 01:12 PM »
There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?
(Attachment Link)

I wasn't talking about the 45 deg, but the short side of the square where "INSTA" is lasered. It looks like you could use that edge as a 90 deg on the other side of your rail, like the GR-16PE. Hence one square doing what both GR-16's are doing...  I could be wrong, but it looks like it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:17 PM by Nesting »

Offline Oldwood

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2017, 02:09 PM »
With patents like most things it's the details that matter. What is the TSO patent on? Not just a square that fastens to the rail, Qwas had one of those out as did many others. This square obviously gets inspiration from the TSO square but is not identical. You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

I would imagine the manufacturer considered the patent but I guess we will find out? [popcorn]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2017, 02:25 PM »
You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

It doesn't matter at all if TSO indeed has not filed for a Canadian patent, since the Insta Square is being sold in Canada and not the US. The same plight the SAWSTOP is in. On the other hand, if TSO held a Canadian patent, that's outright infringement and I would not support this Canadian product.

Perhaps TSO will shed some new light on the topic over the weekend or so.

As for the 45-degree edge feature, I will wait for a user review before thinking it is useful in practice. The mitre edge, good in theory, doesn't seem to be long enough to register for dead-on long mitre panel cuts.

 

Offline Oldwood

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2017, 03:50 PM »
"If TSO held a Canadian patent,"
A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.

It will be interesting to see what the result of this is. [popcorn]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2017, 04:02 PM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2017, 04:41 PM »
A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.
If I had to guess it's how it fastens to the rail: hooks into bottom t-slot and clamps to the top one pressing horizontally towards the rail edge. Quick, strong, accurate, and repeatable. That's the key feature, which many seem to disregard making it about "inventing" a square.
All other squares are simply fastened with t-slot nuts, potentially allowing some wiggle room in horizontal plane.

Hopefully it will be settled nicely and results in better products.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:49 PM by Svar »

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2017, 04:58 PM »
If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 05:02 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2017, 05:02 PM »
"What can be done with one, can be done with the other."

Except for using a clamp with the rail and square, there is
no notch to accept the clamp. I know the DeWalt square had
that feature and they've been out for a year or two I believe.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2017, 05:07 PM »
Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

Yes, but its internal to the patent office and the inventor. Patent Pending is the ideal state to be in, it announces to everyone that a patent has been applied for, so you better be careful,  however, it also does not divulge any of the "secrets/art". It's sitting in the cat bird seat...

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2017, 05:44 PM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2017, 06:09 PM »
If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.

Thats what I thought. Now, wonder what it would cost to get the Insta shipped to the US as the conversion from USD to CAN makes the Insta quite a bit cheaper depending on the shipping cost.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2017, 10:37 PM »
to all:
TSO is humbled by the outpouring of support from customers and FOG friends in the face of a blatant imitation of our flagship product – the GRS-16.
We also could not help notice the number of FOGGERS vouching for ULTIMATE TOOLS - shown with Dan Clermont’s “HOLD” announcement taking the high road on a product they are not involved with design or manufacture.

TSO invested significant resources in the development of the GRS-16 product line:
The first product to completely break the reliance on T-slots for accuracy.
The first product to automatically compensate for rail and tool variations.
The first product to do so with no tools, loose parts or secondary calibration need.
The first product to offer these benefits worldwide with prompt availability.

Thos of you who know us, are well aware that we're not newcomers to innovation. We have a keen ear for the "Voice of the Customer" on the FOG and elsewhere. When we heard customers bemoaning the inability to buy an 18" OTT Triangle when they need it, we came to the rescue with the PTR-18 with a few small enhancements. We then took it  further with our innovative MTR-18 SYSTEM Triangle - refining the offering as customer input came forth on the FOG and elsewhere.
You can count on more innovation to increase the utility of FESTOOL and other leading tools.

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2017, 11:17 PM »
- ooops - looks like our posting skills need remedial training. Here goes the rest of our post that disappeared in cyberspace:

at our TSO annual Business Review June 10th we set the stage to begin taking our products to retail distribution. - A perfect time to pick up where our Eric had left off with Dan Clermont a while back about a retail partnership. (sorry Conspiracy Theorists: no drama here [wink]

We're really pleased our Canadian customers will soon enjoy the convenience of in-country purchasing and delivery directly from Canadas newly authorized retailer of TSO Products:
                              ULTIMATE Tools     www.ultimate tools.ca

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Don T

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2017, 12:47 AM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".
Patent pending is a good thing. As long as there is an application for patent, no one can copy the product. The patent life does not start until it is a true patent. So you can extend the time that your product can't be copied due to patent pending.
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Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2017, 01:17 AM »
Hello Everyone

As I mentioned earlier in this thread Ultimate Tools does not manufacture any products.

We rely on companies to create innovative, leading edge products and our success has been based on providing premium products and services to our customers.

Our lines include Festool, Felder, Woodpecker, Whiteside, Lie Nielsen, Powermatic, SawStop and TSO PRODUCTS

I had a lengthy conversation with Eric and Hans today about the FOG and how it has helped shape our businesses. The FOG is where we both turned to for support and product enhancement.

We at Ultimate Tools are excited about carrying the TSO line of products and look forward to providing our customers with even more innovative products in the future.

Best Regards
Dan Clermont
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
604.291.9663

Offline jobsworth

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2017, 05:06 AM »
All I can say is wow, what I'd truly like too say would get me band permanently from this forum.

Tom

Me to buddy

So Ill just say I wont be getting one
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Bob D.

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2017, 06:58 AM »
Quote
And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK

(Attachment Link)

This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square
pre-dates them all. I wonder if DeWalt applied for a patent. I noticed they trademarked the word
TrackSaw, so if they went that far I just wonder if they patented the T-Square accessory.
Notice how in the video the T-Square does not require any tools to install.

From the DeWalt website:

   The DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square has a self-aligning design and delivers   
    accurate 90° cuts. For use with TrackSaw™ cutting system.


-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2017, 08:49 AM »
Sounds like a good conclusion for now to this matter (I, too, don't believe in any conspiracy thing about the new distribution development). Looks like Canadian customers will soon be able to buy the TSO squares from some Canadian retailers including Ultimate Tools.

What is not clear from TSO Products' latest statement is if it has any Canadian patent on its guide rail squares. If it hasn't, then the INSTA SQUARE is not considered an infringement of its innovation IN CANADA, at least in my book. An imitation, yes.

Also unknown for the time being is, of course, how much the Canadian price is for the TSO square (vs the price $169 for the INSTA SQUARE).



« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 09:03 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Brian Livingstone

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2017, 09:37 AM »

Awesome news !  I will be adding one of the TSO products to my next Ultimate Tools order in the coming weeks.

Ultimate Tools, Gary, Dan and Chris are the best !

Brian
Fall River, Nova Scotia Canada.
Kapex, TS75, MFT, OF1010, OF1400, DTS400 REQ, Parallel guide rails, 1080, 1400, 3000 guide rail, Domino 500, CT36, ETS 150/3, RS2E, Crown stops, 6 drawer Sortainer, Carvex, Syslite II, Festool safety glasses must start to wear.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2017, 12:37 PM »
This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.
I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2017, 11:31 PM »
This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.
I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

That may be true, but not apples to apples. The DWS5027 is a toolless self-aligning T-square style accessory like the GRS-16, the GRS-16 PE, the woodpeckers version, and all the other follow-on squares. It's not a protractor style guide rail accessory. But DeWalt also made (and still offers) a protractor type accessory for their track saw which was also available back in 2008 and maybe before that. I'm not trying to say that DeWalt was before Festool, but it appears to me that it does pre-date TSO, Woodpeckers, and the others. And if DeWalt could continue to sell their accessory why is that? Does it not infringe on any Festool patents and if not then it would seem there is nothing to stop anyone else from doing the same unless there is some form of agreement between the parties involved.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2017, 02:35 PM »
ToolNut has the Insta-RailSquares listed on their website now for $139 with free shipping: LINK

I didnt know it fit in a Systainer:

264640-0


Anyone know how thick the unit is?
EDIT: Its 7/16" or 11mm thick per ToolNut.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:45 PM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!