Author Topic: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada  (Read 12843 times)

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Offline cpw

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2017, 12:00 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.

Offline Paul G

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2017, 12:17 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.
My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.
+1

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2017, 12:37 PM »
Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.


I write my tools off as a business expense so I pay the use tax.  Even if I didn't that still wouldn't change what Toolnut is doing is questionable.
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Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2017, 05:30 PM »
You actually keep a separate accounting sub-category in your books that differentiates between locally bought tools and materials vs. those that you buy out of state ?

And then tally those at the end of each month; file a PA-1 and remit a check with ?

Holy cow !  I'll bet you're one of the few round here.

Bravo.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:34 PM by antss »

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2017, 09:07 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.
My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.

Neither sawstop nor Bosch are small entities although Bosch is arguably much larger. I own a sawstop and love it, but wasn't convinced that Bosch stole any IP ( i.e software, firmware ) to build their version, and their implementation looks different and had different features and so the idea of flesh detection itself being patentable seems questionable since there are other technologies out there for flesh detection. There are patent battles every day between large companies, and I'm not sure that everyone will agree with the court ruling on Bosch.

Arguably, this square implementation looks exactly the same with some tweaks and it's up to each person to decide what they think. I wrote what I think and as someone whose dealt with IP issues in the past I feel that it's good to support an entity that is small and niche, works with the members of this forum, takes feedback and ideas and comes up with innovative products. Whether that resonates with anyone else is up to them,  but I don't have to support retailers on this forum that don't see it that way.

Offline woodvkk

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2017, 09:44 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2017, 10:23 PM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2017, 11:26 PM »
 Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2017, 01:19 AM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 01:24 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline ewils91

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2017, 07:21 AM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.

I agree. Heck, TSO comes here regularly to monitor for problems and improvement opportunities and seems to jump all over problems and even communication shortcomings in their company.

Has anyone seen anything from the actual company producing this wanna be? They may have somewhere but I haven't heard or seen it.

Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2017, 09:42 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.





Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2017, 10:03 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.

Why don't you put the screws to the guy that stole the IP, or the retailers that are willing to look the other way to make a buck.  I've met some of the guys at Toolnut, and I've known Shane for a decade, and met him half a dozen times.  Nice guys, all of them.  They've earned a good reputation.  It seems shortsighted for them to offer a product that in a direct ripoff a well know product here on the FOG, from a well respected FOG member.  They chose to risk their reputation.  Don't blame the guys that don't like the choice they've made.   
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2017, 10:06 AM »
At the end of the day what will happen falls into TSO's hands.  Will they spend money to defend their position on patents pending (there may be multiple patents pending on a product). It may or may not make financial sense.  This is why many copycat items are produced in China.  Expensive and not a good legal system.

If they do, the action will be against the manufacturer.  The retailers have not done anything wrong.  Usually it will be a cease and desist letter from legal counsel and then escalate from there if necessary.  If then real legal action is required then the normal course of business would be to seek a ruling and obtain possibly a legal injunction to force the manufacturer to remove the items from the market.  Once again. - the retailers have done nothing wrong.  If an injunction is granted, and if so desired, then there are proceedings to grant damages if it makes economical sense to do so.  Tough to collect money from a turnip so to say.

I am certain that TSO will be tight lipped here regarding this situation for obvious reasons.  I am also certain that they appreciate the moral support for their products and also their customer service.

And I would bet money that they are not holding a grudge nor have any bad feelings against dealers.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2017, 10:08 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.
Translation:
- N stole from M.
- Don't complain, you might under report your taxes.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11 AM »
Those who want to discuss the pros and cons of the square (s) ..... rock on.

Those who want to have a taxes discussion please take elsewhere ..... like private.

Seth

Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2017, 11:14 AM »
Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points :

1.  It seems most don't realize or are simply glossing over is that "patent pending" does not afford much protection.  If TSO's patent is denied - then this discussion is moot.  If it's granted , then they can seek a royalty from the infringers.  It's all just hypothetical now.

If it's denied, then companies like toonut have wasted an opportunity.  And customer's denied a product.  If TSO's clip or whatever is patented , then they'll have recourse.  Assuming they haven't buried the other guys with a better product first !

2. Any discussion of ethics by folks needs to tempered by looking in the mirror. I bring up the tax issue because anyone that is claiming ToolNut or anyone else is acting unethically has no leg to stand on if they are not squeaky clean themselves.  And most people are not 100%.

This "use" tax issue is an easy gotcha because most guys are ignorant to the laws ( not a valid excuse) and or simply don't feel like abiding.  I'm not deriding civil disobedience , but I'm fairly confident that most of the guys questioning TN's motives are not paying use taxes at some point.  Especially rich if they buy from TN now and don't live in NY, VA, & KY.

I suppose it can be argued that not paying taxes is not unethical , but it certainly is illegal.

I think TSO will triumph in the end.  But, not because of a patent; but because they simply have a better run business with better people.  And because they are innovators, not copy cats.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2017, 01:20 PM »
Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points...

The patent pending issue is a legal matter that TSO seems to have the upper hand in.  I'm not really concerned about the legal aspect, its the ethical part that bothers me. 

It doesn't matter one bit if I'm the least ethical guy on the planet, I'm going to decide where to spend my money in no small part based on the people/companies that I feel I can respect and trust.

TSO/Hans worked with the community to develop its products.  They have earned respect and the business of the FOG members that wanted these products. Now another retailer comes along selling a ripoff product to undercut the guy that earned the respect and the business.  That doesn't sit right with me.  Adding insult to injury that are supporting a guy that stole IP.
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Offline Paul G

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2017, 03:18 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.
+1

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2017, 05:38 PM »
Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.
Ha ha you first ;)
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.

Its already been mentioned that Bosch spend time/money to improve on the design, its not a 1:1 copy like the knock off guide rail square.  Very big difference.
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Offline geoffshep

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2017, 09:04 AM »
I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 

The following 'new' products (in this link) look pretty similar to existing products to me:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-sales-dealer-area/tso-launches-new-20mm-workholding-accessories/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:10 AM by geoffshep »

Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2017, 10:39 AM »

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 


The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]     [sad]

http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 10:58 AM by Cheese »

Online DynaGlide

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2017, 11:00 AM »

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 


The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]     [sad]

http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html

You missed his point. Follow the link be posted.

Offline geoffshep

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2017, 11:11 AM »
Thanks dyna - my post now edited to add clarity  [wink]