Author Topic: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada  (Read 14162 times)

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Offline Dan Clermont

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New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« on: June 14, 2017, 04:50 PM »
Hello,

We are excited to announce a new track saw accessory - the Insta-RailSquare.



The RailSquare slides into the T-slot in the bottom of a Festool or Makita guide rail and self-aligns with a draw-clamp. It's fast and easy to install and makes square cuts a breeze. We think you'll find this to be a very handy accessory.



A laser-engraved scale simplifies repetitive cuts. Made in Canada from CNC'ed aluminum, anodized.

Free shipping in Canada. Visit our website for details and to order.
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
https://www.ultimatetools.ca/
604.291.9663

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 04:57 PM »
I'm sorry, but this looks like 1:1 TSO product ripoff. Plus scale, but minus clamp slot.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 05:00 PM by Svar »

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 05:22 PM »
Nice! Is it cheaper than the TSO version?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 577
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Oh boy...
 [jawdrop] [popcorn]
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 06:09 PM »
I'm sorry, but this looks like 1:1 TSO product ripoff. Plus scale, but minus clamp slot.

Maybe Hans has a licensing agreement? That would make sense, however about the name change...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 06:22 PM »
After speaking with Hans for about an hour a couple of days ago I doubt he has a licensing agreement.

Peter

EDIT:  After just speaking with Hans this is not a licensed product.  Other than that I will let him speak for himself, or not, if he wishes because patents are involved.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 06:36 PM by Peter Halle »
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 06:44 PM »
Competition is good, but it's still overpriced for what it is.
It's not competition, it's nearly exact copy. At least they could have improved something.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 07:12 PM »
we can answer the question clearly:

TSO Products has not licensed or authorized anyone to reproduce or sell a copy or cheapened replica of our Patent Pending invention: the GRS-16 series of Guide Rail Squares.

We continue to sell AND SHIP worldwide.
Your business and continued support is welcome and sincerely appreciated.

Hans and ERic
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline jimbo51

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 09:07 PM »
I would hope that most Foggers would be honorable enough to ignore this attempt to make a buck from someone else's hard work and effort. I guess TSO should have applied for a Canadian patent also, but then someone elsewhere might have made the copy.

The fact that a Festool dealer is promoting this knock-off product is disappointing.

Offline The.Handyman

  • Posts: 62
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 10:03 PM »
I agree with Jimbo ☝️. I am very disappointed people are promoting this, especially the dealers on Instagram. I will continue to call out the knockoff when I see it posted.

Travis
@toolsbydesign

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 10:11 PM »
I also agree with Jimbo and Handyman.  Disappointed!

Offline glass1

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 11:08 PM »
I could not look myself in the mirror if I bought this knock off if it was not licensed.

Offline neilc

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 11:47 PM »
I think dealers promoting this are doing a disservice to TSO for carrying this clone of a product. 

We all want innovation.  We all want new ideas.  We want a reliable supply.  And we should want healthy suppliers. 

Making a buck off of someone else's innovation may not be illegal without a massive patent battle.   But it is wrong.

FOG members and Festool users are creators.  Builders.  Many make their living off of executing original ideas.  Their craft.  Their fit and finish.  Their commitment to quality. 

It's a shame to see Dan undermining the spirit of that creativity and the business of TSO.  To only make a few bucks on a rail square. 

I don't know the company manufacturing the new square, but can clearly see it's a cheaper clone of a product I'm sure TSO has spent hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars developing.

If you Google 'guide rail square' TSO owns the results.   Google calls that 'category authority.' 

If you Google 'Insta Railsquare' you get a video on YouTube.  Uploaded 5 hours ago.



Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 12:12 AM »
Does the patent TSO have in the US matter in Canada (assuming TSO has a patent at all)?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Online tjbnwi

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 12:30 AM »
All I can say is wow, what I'd truly like too say would get me band permanently from this forum.

Tom

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 12:41 AM »
Really? Dan and other dealers are doing NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition. It's a TSO issue as to what they want to do. If that was the case everyone here would buy nothing but a QWAS dogs and we know darn well that's not the case and the companies selling knock offs would not be here instead of actually being leaders here.

Qwas was playing with these things YEARS before anyone else, yet tons of guys here praise the other companies products  that we all know knocked him off. And still no one but Qwas Dogs even fit right. he pretty much isn't even here anymore and it's a shame. So this is nothing new.

Its either  fair game for everyone or not. SO please dont call out anyone trying to make money, it's business and it's not always nice nor perfect.

So many of my so called competition over the years have taken my pictures from my site and actually used them on their own site, even stolen my designs to the point they didn't even redraw them, but took  a picture of designs I made for a client and just posted it on their site! And it's a larger company too. I dint cry over it, I worked around it.

I don't cry like a baby, I foster relationships with clients and it overrides anyone efforts to intentionally or unintentionally hurt  me. I dont think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt TSO, they are trying  to make a living.

If you put a good idea out there some will use it. So don't share ideas or start a business unless you expect copies and have a plan. TSO is in business and they know what happens and I am betting anything they wont let it bother their bottom line. With TSO quick changes to products based on feedback the others trying to copy will most likely fail.

I have seen many in 15 years laugh at me say making those inlays is easy, start up a business and now they are gone. I even get calls from people that purchased from the big guys saying they were unhappy and I get their new business. If I let some of those early copy cats get to me I would have stopped 14 years ago and I am glad I didn't. I am here the others are gone and I am betting if TSO focuses on niche stuff they will be fine as well. With a product like this a person usually gets what they pay for, if it's cheaper it's almost certainly not as good. I know TSO cant be making much as it is so anything as good can't possibly cost much less. The margins just arn't there. I am not sure how TSO even sells their stuff in the first place. Trying to undercut them can't last long.

We dont have to dis others selling or promoting similar items. Heck it may induce TSO to make improvements to their products yet again. I use one of their items every single day and no knock off that is cheaper will cause me to bail on them when I go to make my next purchase.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:55 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 01:05 AM »
Apparently some believe that patent infringement is nothing wrong.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Apparently some believe that patent infringement is nothing wrong.
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 825
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Really? Dan and other dealers are doing NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition. It's a TSO issue as to what they want to do. If that was the case everyone here would buy nothing but a QWAS dogs and we know darn well that's not the case and the companies selling knock offs would not be here instead of actually being leaders here.

Qwas was playing with these things YEARS before anyone else, yet tons of guys here praise the other companies products  that we all know knocked him off. And still no one but Qwas Dogs even fit right. he pretty much isn't even here anymore and it's a shame. So this is nothing new.

Its either  fair game for everyone or not. SO please dont call out anyone trying to make money, it's business and it's not always nice nor perfect.

So many of my so called competition over the years have taken my pictures from my site and actually used them on their own site, even stolen my designs to the point they didn't even redraw them, but took  a picture of designs I made for a client and just posted it on their site! And it's a larger company too. I dint cry over it, I worked around it.

I don't cry like a baby, I foster relationships with clients and it overrides anyone efforts to intentionally or unintentionally hurt  me. I dont think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt TSO, they are trying  to make a living.

If you put a good idea out there some will use it. So don't share ideas or start a business unless you expect copies and have a plan. TSO is in business and they know what happens and I am betting anything they wont let it bother their bottom line. With TSO quick changes to products based on feedback the others trying to copy will most likely fail.

I have seen many in 15 years laugh at me say making those inlays is easy, start up a business and now they are gone. I even get calls from people that purchased from the big guys saying they were unhappy and I get their new business. If I let some of those early copy cats get to me I would have stopped 14 years ago and I am glad I didn't. I am here the others are gone and I am betting if TSO focuses on niche stuff they will be fine as well. With a product like this a person usually gets what they pay for, if it's cheaper it's almost certainly not as good. I know TSO cant be making much as it is so anything as good can't possibly cost much less. The margins just arn't there. I am not sure how TSO even sells their stuff in the first place. Trying to undercut them can't last long.

We dont have to dis others selling or promoting similar items. Heck it may induce TSO to make improvements to their products yet again. I use one of their items every single day and no knock off that is cheaper will cause me to bail on them when I go to make my next purchase.
Exactly. Glad someone said it! I just wish they would have made this one a lot cheaper. These products are too overpriced for what they are IMO. Oh well, guess we're going to have to wait till the chinese start making a copy.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:27 AM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 01:45 AM »
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
Usually no, but selling a knockoff in US would be illegal until patent expires.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2017, 01:51 AM »
NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition.
Actually not. That's why we have patents with expiration dates. It's a delicate ballance. Stealing someone's R&D fresh from the oven does not encourage innovation. Text book stuff, really.

Offline live4ever

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2017, 02:12 AM »
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
Usually no, but selling a knockoff in US would be illegal until patent expires.

It's possible (and would be prudent) that they won't ship to the US.
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2017, 03:53 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Ultimate Tools does not manufacture this product. Matter of fact, we do not manufacture any products at all.

We were offered the opportunity to carry this product in our retail store and just happened to be the first dealers to post this product on the FOG.

I am not sure what agreement the manufacturer has with TSO and was not aware of any patents or royalties.

We carry both Qwas Dogs and Fine Tool Work Dogs in our store. You could consider one to be the knock off of the other, but both lines do quite well and we have had no complaints.

TSO is in the US, we are in Canada. Many customers do not like to deal with bringing products across the border. Having an option in Canada would be good for customers north of the border

We would be more than happy to carry TSO squares for Canadian customer if possible and welcome that opportunity.

We will remove this product from our website until we talk to the distributor

Thanks
Dan Clermont
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:04 AM by Dan Clermont »
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2017, 10:28 AM »
It is a good move on the part of Ultimate Tools to withdraw the product temporarily until everyone has had a chance to think through the issue.

My understanding is that the TOS guide rail square does not have any Canadian patent protection (correct me if I am wrong) and hence this isn't a legal issue. Ultimate Tools may decide to carry or not to carry this competitor or copy product, depending on your perspective, but it won't mean the alternative product will not be available to Canadian consumers as other retailers are still carrying it.

Bosch cannot now sell its Reaxx saws in the States but it is still selling the saws in Canada. So what do you think about that? Patent protection is a tool a manufacturer can have to protect its invention; if it is not used by an inventor, an inventor should not expect others not to copy the invention. Of course, as we all know, it is expensive or sometimes financially not viable to go after someone who infringes on your patent right, even if it is there. However, morally or ethically, the battle is easier to win.

Another example is the Tite-Mark marking gauge. The inventor has not filed for any patent protection (again, correct me if I am wrong) and now a copy at half the price (?) is circulating (on Amazon, I think). Do you think Amazon will knowingly carry a product that infringes on someone's patent right? Amazon will remove the product from its site if it is the case.





« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:37 AM by ChuckM »

Offline clark_fork

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2017, 12:07 PM »
Let nobody forget...



Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.

Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

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don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2017, 01:02 PM »
Let nobody forget...

(Attachment Link)

Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.


And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK




If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2017, 03:05 PM »
Hello Everyone,

For what it is worth we did reach out to TSO on June 7th about carrying their product line in our store and on our website.

We received a response from Eric stating they were not interested in distribution. If they would have shown an interest in distribution we would have gladly followed through with TSO.

We did very well with the Woodpecker One Time Tool  Guide Square offered a year ago from our customer base. Their is a market in our customer base to provide an accessory for squaring up guide rails. This was the alternative option

Best Regards
Dan Clermont
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
https://www.ultimatetools.ca/
604.291.9663

Offline charley1968

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2017, 03:44 PM »
I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, @Dan Clermont. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 03:55 PM by charley1968 »
Just for today..

Online RobBob

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2017, 04:14 PM »
I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, @Dan Clermont. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..

@charley1968 My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  They only sell direct through their website.  Also, they have clearly stated that they will sell to anyone anywhere in the world.
We ship worldwide - $14.95 USD to all destinations outside the United States
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:18 PM by RobBob »

Offline charley1968

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2017, 05:20 PM »
That's what i understood as well. But by using a distributor the producer offers the product to a bigger/ wider market. That's what TSO appearently declined and that's what i meant.
Just for today..