Author Topic: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada  (Read 10929 times)

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Offline Dan Clermont

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New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« on: June 14, 2017, 04:50 PM »
Hello,

We are excited to announce a new track saw accessory - the Insta-RailSquare.



The RailSquare slides into the T-slot in the bottom of a Festool or Makita guide rail and self-aligns with a draw-clamp. It's fast and easy to install and makes square cuts a breeze. We think you'll find this to be a very handy accessory.



A laser-engraved scale simplifies repetitive cuts. Made in Canada from CNC'ed aluminum, anodized.

Free shipping in Canada. Visit our website for details and to order.
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
604.291.9663

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 04:57 PM »
I'm sorry, but this looks like 1:1 TSO product ripoff. Plus scale, but minus clamp slot.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 05:00 PM by Svar »

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 05:22 PM »
Nice! Is it cheaper than the TSO version?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 481
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Oh boy...
 [jawdrop] [popcorn]
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3145
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2017, 06:09 PM »
I'm sorry, but this looks like 1:1 TSO product ripoff. Plus scale, but minus clamp slot.

Maybe Hans has a licensing agreement? That would make sense, however about the name change...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2017, 06:22 PM »
After speaking with Hans for about an hour a couple of days ago I doubt he has a licensing agreement.

Peter

EDIT:  After just speaking with Hans this is not a licensed product.  Other than that I will let him speak for himself, or not, if he wishes because patents are involved.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 06:36 PM by Peter Halle »
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2017, 06:44 PM »
Competition is good, but it's still overpriced for what it is.
It's not competition, it's nearly exact copy. At least they could have improved something.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2017, 07:12 PM »
we can answer the question clearly:

TSO Products has not licensed or authorized anyone to reproduce or sell a copy or cheapened replica of our Patent Pending invention: the GRS-16 series of Guide Rail Squares.

We continue to sell AND SHIP worldwide.
Your business and continued support is welcome and sincerely appreciated.

Hans and ERic
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline jimbo51

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2017, 09:07 PM »
I would hope that most Foggers would be honorable enough to ignore this attempt to make a buck from someone else's hard work and effort. I guess TSO should have applied for a Canadian patent also, but then someone elsewhere might have made the copy.

The fact that a Festool dealer is promoting this knock-off product is disappointing.

Offline The.Handyman

  • Posts: 57
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 10:03 PM »
I agree with Jimbo ☝️. I am very disappointed people are promoting this, especially the dealers on Instagram. I will continue to call out the knockoff when I see it posted.

Travis
@toolsbydesign

Offline Chris Perren

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 10:11 PM »
I also agree with Jimbo and Handyman.  Disappointed!

Offline glass1

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 11:08 PM »
I could not look myself in the mirror if I bought this knock off if it was not licensed.

Offline neilc

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 11:47 PM »
I think dealers promoting this are doing a disservice to TSO for carrying this clone of a product. 

We all want innovation.  We all want new ideas.  We want a reliable supply.  And we should want healthy suppliers. 

Making a buck off of someone else's innovation may not be illegal without a massive patent battle.   But it is wrong.

FOG members and Festool users are creators.  Builders.  Many make their living off of executing original ideas.  Their craft.  Their fit and finish.  Their commitment to quality. 

It's a shame to see Dan undermining the spirit of that creativity and the business of TSO.  To only make a few bucks on a rail square. 

I don't know the company manufacturing the new square, but can clearly see it's a cheaper clone of a product I'm sure TSO has spent hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars developing.

If you Google 'guide rail square' TSO owns the results.   Google calls that 'category authority.' 

If you Google 'Insta Railsquare' you get a video on YouTube.  Uploaded 5 hours ago.



Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 12:12 AM »
Does the patent TSO have in the US matter in Canada (assuming TSO has a patent at all)?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Online tjbnwi

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 12:30 AM »
All I can say is wow, what I'd truly like too say would get me band permanently from this forum.

Tom

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 12:41 AM »
Really? Dan and other dealers are doing NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition. It's a TSO issue as to what they want to do. If that was the case everyone here would buy nothing but a QWAS dogs and we know darn well that's not the case and the companies selling knock offs would not be here instead of actually being leaders here.

Qwas was playing with these things YEARS before anyone else, yet tons of guys here praise the other companies products  that we all know knocked him off. And still no one but Qwas Dogs even fit right. he pretty much isn't even here anymore and it's a shame. So this is nothing new.

Its either  fair game for everyone or not. SO please dont call out anyone trying to make money, it's business and it's not always nice nor perfect.

So many of my so called competition over the years have taken my pictures from my site and actually used them on their own site, even stolen my designs to the point they didn't even redraw them, but took  a picture of designs I made for a client and just posted it on their site! And it's a larger company too. I dint cry over it, I worked around it.

I don't cry like a baby, I foster relationships with clients and it overrides anyone efforts to intentionally or unintentionally hurt  me. I dont think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt TSO, they are trying  to make a living.

If you put a good idea out there some will use it. So don't share ideas or start a business unless you expect copies and have a plan. TSO is in business and they know what happens and I am betting anything they wont let it bother their bottom line. With TSO quick changes to products based on feedback the others trying to copy will most likely fail.

I have seen many in 15 years laugh at me say making those inlays is easy, start up a business and now they are gone. I even get calls from people that purchased from the big guys saying they were unhappy and I get their new business. If I let some of those early copy cats get to me I would have stopped 14 years ago and I am glad I didn't. I am here the others are gone and I am betting if TSO focuses on niche stuff they will be fine as well. With a product like this a person usually gets what they pay for, if it's cheaper it's almost certainly not as good. I know TSO cant be making much as it is so anything as good can't possibly cost much less. The margins just arn't there. I am not sure how TSO even sells their stuff in the first place. Trying to undercut them can't last long.

We dont have to dis others selling or promoting similar items. Heck it may induce TSO to make improvements to their products yet again. I use one of their items every single day and no knock off that is cheaper will cause me to bail on them when I go to make my next purchase.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:55 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 01:05 AM »
Apparently some believe that patent infringement is nothing wrong.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Apparently some believe that patent infringement is nothing wrong.
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Really? Dan and other dealers are doing NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition. It's a TSO issue as to what they want to do. If that was the case everyone here would buy nothing but a QWAS dogs and we know darn well that's not the case and the companies selling knock offs would not be here instead of actually being leaders here.

Qwas was playing with these things YEARS before anyone else, yet tons of guys here praise the other companies products  that we all know knocked him off. And still no one but Qwas Dogs even fit right. he pretty much isn't even here anymore and it's a shame. So this is nothing new.

Its either  fair game for everyone or not. SO please dont call out anyone trying to make money, it's business and it's not always nice nor perfect.

So many of my so called competition over the years have taken my pictures from my site and actually used them on their own site, even stolen my designs to the point they didn't even redraw them, but took  a picture of designs I made for a client and just posted it on their site! And it's a larger company too. I dint cry over it, I worked around it.

I don't cry like a baby, I foster relationships with clients and it overrides anyone efforts to intentionally or unintentionally hurt  me. I dont think anyone is intentionally trying to hurt TSO, they are trying  to make a living.

If you put a good idea out there some will use it. So don't share ideas or start a business unless you expect copies and have a plan. TSO is in business and they know what happens and I am betting anything they wont let it bother their bottom line. With TSO quick changes to products based on feedback the others trying to copy will most likely fail.

I have seen many in 15 years laugh at me say making those inlays is easy, start up a business and now they are gone. I even get calls from people that purchased from the big guys saying they were unhappy and I get their new business. If I let some of those early copy cats get to me I would have stopped 14 years ago and I am glad I didn't. I am here the others are gone and I am betting if TSO focuses on niche stuff they will be fine as well. With a product like this a person usually gets what they pay for, if it's cheaper it's almost certainly not as good. I know TSO cant be making much as it is so anything as good can't possibly cost much less. The margins just arn't there. I am not sure how TSO even sells their stuff in the first place. Trying to undercut them can't last long.

We dont have to dis others selling or promoting similar items. Heck it may induce TSO to make improvements to their products yet again. I use one of their items every single day and no knock off that is cheaper will cause me to bail on them when I go to make my next purchase.
Exactly. Glad someone said it! I just wish they would have made this one a lot cheaper. These products are too overpriced for what they are IMO. Oh well, guess we're going to have to wait till the chinese start making a copy.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:27 AM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 01:45 AM »
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
Usually no, but selling a knockoff in US would be illegal until patent expires.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2017, 01:51 AM »
NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition.
Actually not. That's why we have patents with expiration dates. It's a delicate ballance. Stealing someone's R&D fresh from the oven does not encourage innovation. Text book stuff, really.

Offline live4ever

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2017, 02:12 AM »
Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.
Usually no, but selling a knockoff in US would be illegal until patent expires.

It's possible (and would be prudent) that they won't ship to the US.
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2017, 03:53 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Ultimate Tools does not manufacture this product. Matter of fact, we do not manufacture any products at all.

We were offered the opportunity to carry this product in our retail store and just happened to be the first dealers to post this product on the FOG.

I am not sure what agreement the manufacturer has with TSO and was not aware of any patents or royalties.

We carry both Qwas Dogs and Fine Tool Work Dogs in our store. You could consider one to be the knock off of the other, but both lines do quite well and we have had no complaints.

TSO is in the US, we are in Canada. Many customers do not like to deal with bringing products across the border. Having an option in Canada would be good for customers north of the border

We would be more than happy to carry TSO squares for Canadian customer if possible and welcome that opportunity.

We will remove this product from our website until we talk to the distributor

Thanks
Dan Clermont
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:04 AM by Dan Clermont »
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2017, 10:28 AM »
It is a good move on the part of Ultimate Tools to withdraw the product temporarily until everyone has had a chance to think through the issue.

My understanding is that the TOS guide rail square does not have any Canadian patent protection (correct me if I am wrong) and hence this isn't a legal issue. Ultimate Tools may decide to carry or not to carry this competitor or copy product, depending on your perspective, but it won't mean the alternative product will not be available to Canadian consumers as other retailers are still carrying it.

Bosch cannot now sell its Reaxx saws in the States but it is still selling the saws in Canada. So what do you think about that? Patent protection is a tool a manufacturer can have to protect its invention; if it is not used by an inventor, an inventor should not expect others not to copy the invention. Of course, as we all know, it is expensive or sometimes financially not viable to go after someone who infringes on your patent right, even if it is there. However, morally or ethically, the battle is easier to win.

Another example is the Tite-Mark marking gauge. The inventor has not filed for any patent protection (again, correct me if I am wrong) and now a copy at half the price (?) is circulating (on Amazon, I think). Do you think Amazon will knowingly carry a product that infringes on someone's patent right? Amazon will remove the product from its site if it is the case.





« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:37 AM by ChuckM »

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 242
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2017, 12:07 PM »
Let nobody forget...



Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.

Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2017, 01:02 PM »
Let nobody forget...

(Attachment Link)

Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.


And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK




If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2017, 03:05 PM »
Hello Everyone,

For what it is worth we did reach out to TSO on June 7th about carrying their product line in our store and on our website.

We received a response from Eric stating they were not interested in distribution. If they would have shown an interest in distribution we would have gladly followed through with TSO.

We did very well with the Woodpecker One Time Tool  Guide Square offered a year ago from our customer base. Their is a market in our customer base to provide an accessory for squaring up guide rails. This was the alternative option

Best Regards
Dan Clermont
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
604.291.9663

Offline charley1968

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2017, 03:44 PM »
I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, @Dan Clermont. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 03:55 PM by charley1968 »
Just for today..

Online RobBob

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2017, 04:14 PM »
I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, @Dan Clermont. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..

@charley1968 My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  They only sell direct through their website.  Also, they have clearly stated that they will sell to anyone anywhere in the world.
We ship worldwide - $14.95 USD to all destinations outside the United States
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 04:18 PM by RobBob »

Offline charley1968

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2017, 05:20 PM »
That's what i understood as well. But by using a distributor the producer offers the product to a bigger/ wider market. That's what TSO appearently declined and that's what i meant.
Just for today..

Offline ChuckM

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2017, 05:45 PM »


@charley1968 My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  [/url]

With due respect, that is hair-splitting.

I am not saying TSO Products is wrong in its decision to sell direct or not to use a distributor, but that could be an incentive for someone else (I don't know who produces the alternative square) to come in legally in Canada to fill that void. Why TSO Products doesn't want to have a distributor in Canada or anywhere else outside the US is not important as it is its marketing right. Yet, if they were not seeing the alternative (or copycat as some put it) coming, they had themselves to answer to.

Sooner or later, someone within or outside North America would find a manufacturer in China or Taiwan and mass produce something similar and sell them outside the US -- legally. $200 Cdn (shipping included) is big incentive. They can produce and sell a copycat for $120 Cdn or even $100 Cdn to Europe (where Festool is common) or Australia and still make a decent profit.

May be someone is already doing that....
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:47 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2017, 08:14 PM »
@Dan Clermont ,  I want to compliment you for they way you have responded.  You have always been a class act.

I am sure that the majority of members here now do not know that you were one of the original team of Members here who visited a training center and got hands on time with some new to market tools.  I am sure that not many know that you became a Festool dealer after your participation here and that trip.  Many here probably have never read a post of yours prior to you becoming a dealer when you spent lots of time helping out newbies like me.

Thank you for being YOU!  The real issue isn't with you but with the producer of the tool.

Guess you are celebrating your ten years here also!

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Baartman

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2017, 09:46 PM »
I'll echo this sentiment, I order from Ultimate tools and am happy with the service I receive. Last order they took the time to contact me and inform me of an opportunity to upgrade to airstream batteries. The order came without the FSK rail by accident, and when I called, without me asking, they overnight shipped the rail.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2017, 01:38 AM »
To classy for me. If Dan did not receive a formal cease and desist form TSO he should not pull a darn thing. I wouldn't let a few posters railroad me into removing a product. I am hoping Dan didn't react without TSO contacting him and asking for  removal becasue if they didn't care no one else should.

Dan Clermont has been a name on this forum as long as I remember, a good poster and I feel bad a few guys here called his ethics into question.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Nesting

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 06:10 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it gets to the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 12:15 PM by Nesting »

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 242
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2017, 09:11 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it hits the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.

Video available on this website: http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE


I am not sure I grasped the 45° cut feature until seeing this video.


http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2017, 12:36 PM »
There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2017, 12:52 PM »
the angle on the GRS-16 is intentionally not 45 degrees.
 
The resulting reference edge becomes so short that accuracy degrades seriously. The same thing is true of using the short parallel edge as PE style feature .By not making it a specific angle we wanted to preclude creating the false impression that this is really a practical  feature.
We actually have CAD models of such a tool. The idea was also suggested by a toolmaker customer. Not a new idea at all.


Expect a  separate response form us on the broader topic of imitation in a separate post into the weekend when we have time to respond thoughtfully.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Nesting

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2017, 01:12 PM »
There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?
(Attachment Link)

I wasn't talking about the 45 deg, but the short side of the square where "INSTA" is lasered. It looks like you could use that edge as a 90 deg on the other side of your rail, like the GR-16PE. Hence one square doing what both GR-16's are doing...  I could be wrong, but it looks like it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:17 PM by Nesting »

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 265
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2017, 02:09 PM »
With patents like most things it's the details that matter. What is the TSO patent on? Not just a square that fastens to the rail, Qwas had one of those out as did many others. This square obviously gets inspiration from the TSO square but is not identical. You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

I would imagine the manufacturer considered the patent but I guess we will find out? [popcorn]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 125
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2017, 02:25 PM »
You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

It doesn't matter at all if TSO indeed has not filed for a Canadian patent, since the Insta Square is being sold in Canada and not the US. The same plight the SAWSTOP is in. On the other hand, if TSO held a Canadian patent, that's outright infringement and I would not support this Canadian product.

Perhaps TSO will shed some new light on the topic over the weekend or so.

As for the 45-degree edge feature, I will wait for a user review before thinking it is useful in practice. The mitre edge, good in theory, doesn't seem to be long enough to register for dead-on long mitre panel cuts.

 

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 265
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2017, 03:50 PM »
"If TSO held a Canadian patent,"
A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.

It will be interesting to see what the result of this is. [popcorn]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2017, 04:02 PM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2017, 04:41 PM »
A patent on what? We need to know what the details to know if the patent has been infringed on. The TSO square is somewhat similar to the Qwas square and some of the other previous offerings. There is probably some innovative portion of the TSO product that is covered in the patent.
If I had to guess it's how it fastens to the rail: hooks into bottom t-slot and clamps to the top one pressing horizontally towards the rail edge. Quick, strong, accurate, and repeatable. That's the key feature, which many seem to disregard making it about "inventing" a square.
All other squares are simply fastened with t-slot nuts, potentially allowing some wiggle room in horizontal plane.

Hopefully it will be settled nicely and results in better products.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:49 PM by Svar »

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2017, 04:58 PM »
If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 05:02 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2017, 05:02 PM »
"What can be done with one, can be done with the other."

Except for using a clamp with the rail and square, there is
no notch to accept the clamp. I know the DeWalt square had
that feature and they've been out for a year or two I believe.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3145
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2017, 05:07 PM »
Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?

Yes, but its internal to the patent office and the inventor. Patent Pending is the ideal state to be in, it announces to everyone that a patent has been applied for, so you better be careful,  however, it also does not divulge any of the "secrets/art". It's sitting in the cat bird seat...

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2017, 05:44 PM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2017, 06:09 PM »
If it's patent pending they don't  have the patent, it very well could be it's denied and the people selling this square will get a patent themselves!

Right off a link from the patent office regarding patent pending items:

Therefore, it would not be appropriate to allow patent applicants to stop others from making, using, selling, and importing the invention (e.g. patent rights) described in their patent application because it is possible the Patent Office might later determine a patent should not be granted.


This alone should of stopped Dan from pulling anything at all.

There are provisional rights, but until the patent has been granted and the company feels they want to go after someone everything these guys selling this new square are doing is legal in Canada and the US.

Dan  should put that back on his site becasue he is hurting the people making it, who are we to decide TSO is the one that is in the right, that's not our call at all. Maybe this guy(or company) showed his design 3 years ago on another forum. Maybe he is pulling out his hair saying how dare TSO use this design. Maybe they both thought of it concurrently, but we can think they copied, we know nothing at all. And to my eye it NOT identical. Would it aggravate me if I was TSO, heck yes, but business sucks.

Patent Pending means just that, it's pending. That being said I bought TSO and will stick with them.

Thats what I thought. Now, wonder what it would cost to get the Insta shipped to the US as the conversion from USD to CAN makes the Insta quite a bit cheaper depending on the shipping cost.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2017, 10:37 PM »
to all:
TSO is humbled by the outpouring of support from customers and FOG friends in the face of a blatant imitation of our flagship product – the GRS-16.
We also could not help notice the number of FOGGERS vouching for ULTIMATE TOOLS - shown with Dan Clermont’s “HOLD” announcement taking the high road on a product they are not involved with design or manufacture.

TSO invested significant resources in the development of the GRS-16 product line:
The first product to completely break the reliance on T-slots for accuracy.
The first product to automatically compensate for rail and tool variations.
The first product to do so with no tools, loose parts or secondary calibration need.
The first product to offer these benefits worldwide with prompt availability.

Thos of you who know us, are well aware that we're not newcomers to innovation. We have a keen ear for the "Voice of the Customer" on the FOG and elsewhere. When we heard customers bemoaning the inability to buy an 18" OTT Triangle when they need it, we came to the rescue with the PTR-18 with a few small enhancements. We then took it  further with our innovative MTR-18 SYSTEM Triangle - refining the offering as customer input came forth on the FOG and elsewhere.
You can count on more innovation to increase the utility of FESTOOL and other leading tools.

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2017, 11:17 PM »
- ooops - looks like our posting skills need remedial training. Here goes the rest of our post that disappeared in cyberspace:

at our TSO annual Business Review June 10th we set the stage to begin taking our products to retail distribution. - A perfect time to pick up where our Eric had left off with Dan Clermont a while back about a retail partnership. (sorry Conspiracy Theorists: no drama here [wink]

We're really pleased our Canadian customers will soon enjoy the convenience of in-country purchasing and delivery directly from Canadas newly authorized retailer of TSO Products:
                              ULTIMATE Tools     www.ultimate tools.ca

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Don T

  • Posts: 1692
  • Phoenix, Az
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2017, 12:47 AM »
Anyone know the patent number? All I can find is "Patent Pending" statements. Isnt there a number assigned to the application while its pending?
Actually under patent pending there  isn't a patent number at all,  when pending they call it an "application number".
Patent pending is a good thing. As long as there is an application for patent, no one can copy the product. The patent life does not start until it is a true patent. So you can extend the time that your product can't be copied due to patent pending.
RO150, C12, DF 500 Q, CT33, TS75, MFT3, Kapex 120, MFT3/Kapex, MFK 700, RO 90, ETS150/3, CT22, Centrotec Installers Kit, Parallel Guides & Ext, Carvex, OF1400, LR32 Set, MFS400 w/700 rails, KA UG Set, First Aid Kit, RTS 400 EQ, Vecturo OS400 Set, CT Wings, CT Drill Guide, Pro 5, CXS

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2017, 01:17 AM »
Hello Everyone

As I mentioned earlier in this thread Ultimate Tools does not manufacture any products.

We rely on companies to create innovative, leading edge products and our success has been based on providing premium products and services to our customers.

Our lines include Festool, Felder, Woodpecker, Whiteside, Lie Nielsen, Powermatic, SawStop and TSO PRODUCTS

I had a lengthy conversation with Eric and Hans today about the FOG and how it has helped shape our businesses. The FOG is where we both turned to for support and product enhancement.

We at Ultimate Tools are excited about carrying the TSO line of products and look forward to providing our customers with even more innovative products in the future.

Best Regards
Dan Clermont
Canadian Festool Dealer and User!!!
604.291.9663

Offline jobsworth

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2017, 05:06 AM »
All I can say is wow, what I'd truly like too say would get me band permanently from this forum.

Tom

Me to buddy

So Ill just say I wont be getting one
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2017, 06:58 AM »
Quote
And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK

(Attachment Link)

This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square
pre-dates them all. I wonder if DeWalt applied for a patent. I noticed they trademarked the word
TrackSaw, so if they went that far I just wonder if they patented the T-Square accessory.
Notice how in the video the T-Square does not require any tools to install.

From the DeWalt website:

   The DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square has a self-aligning design and delivers   
    accurate 90° cuts. For use with TrackSaw™ cutting system.


-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 125
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2017, 08:49 AM »
Sounds like a good conclusion for now to this matter (I, too, don't believe in any conspiracy thing about the new distribution development). Looks like Canadian customers will soon be able to buy the TSO squares from some Canadian retailers including Ultimate Tools.

What is not clear from TSO Products' latest statement is if it has any Canadian patent on its guide rail squares. If it hasn't, then the INSTA SQUARE is not considered an infringement of its innovation IN CANADA, at least in my book. An imitation, yes.

Also unknown for the time being is, of course, how much the Canadian price is for the TSO square (vs the price $169 for the INSTA SQUARE).



« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 09:03 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Brian Livingstone

  • Posts: 118
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2017, 09:37 AM »

Awesome news !  I will be adding one of the TSO products to my next Ultimate Tools order in the coming weeks.

Ultimate Tools, Gary, Dan and Chris are the best !

Brian
Fall River, Nova Scotia Canada.
Kapex, TS75, MFT, OF1010, OF1400, DTS400 REQ, Parallel guide rails, 1080, 1400, 3000 guide rail, Domino 500, CT36, ETS 150/3, RS2E, Crown stops, 6 drawer Sortainer, Carvex, Syslite II, Festool safety glasses must start to wear.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2017, 12:37 PM »
This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.
I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2017, 11:31 PM »
This YouTube video from 2008 would suggest that the DeWalt DWS5027 TrackSaw™ T-Square pre-dates them all.
I am pretty sure Festool rail protractor predates Dewalt track saw.

That may be true, but not apples to apples. The DWS5027 is a toolless self-aligning T-square style accessory like the GRS-16, the GRS-16 PE, the woodpeckers version, and all the other follow-on squares. It's not a protractor style guide rail accessory. But DeWalt also made (and still offers) a protractor type accessory for their track saw which was also available back in 2008 and maybe before that. I'm not trying to say that DeWalt was before Festool, but it appears to me that it does pre-date TSO, Woodpeckers, and the others. And if DeWalt could continue to sell their accessory why is that? Does it not infringe on any Festool patents and if not then it would seem there is nothing to stop anyone else from doing the same unless there is some form of agreement between the parties involved.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2017, 02:35 PM »
ToolNut has the Insta-RailSquares listed on their website now for $139 with free shipping: LINK

I didnt know it fit in a Systainer:

264640-0


Anyone know how thick the unit is?
EDIT: Its 7/16" or 11mm thick per ToolNut.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 02:45 PM by ben_r_ »
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 125
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2017, 03:19 PM »
ToolNut has the Insta-RailSquares listed on their website now for $139 with free shipping: LINK

I didnt know it fit in a Systainer:

(Attachment Link)


Anyone know how thick the unit is?
EDIT: Its 7/16" or 11mm thick per ToolNut.

The video says "US rights."
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 03:23 PM by ChuckM »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2017, 05:05 PM »
to clarify ToolNut's position before anyone writes fresh posts on this topic, I posted the following Review in response to the YouTUbe on the ToolNut website:
"GRS-16 Guide Rail Square
imitation is the finest fomr of flattery but we recognize a number of shortcuts in this imitation which keep it from being the equal of the original GRS-16 and the GRS-16 PE. The advertised product is not an authorized copy of the original GRS-16 (US and Int'l Pat Pend).
ToolNut is a respected retailer who was not aware that the GRS-16 is now also available to established retailers in Canada, USA and overseas.
Hans"

we appreciate the prdicament of a retailer like ToolNut who is a majaor player in this market. GRS-16 became a clearly successful product thanks in no small part to all the support and approving ccomments from FOG members not just in the USA but around th world.

With experience in another manufacturing business selling through distribution we wanted to get our products and production "RIGHT" as well as our internal operations before facing the demands of the retail market. Not the least was the need to get our costs to a point where we could offer a competitive retail margin.

The problem with our approach is that we created a demand in the market and also a vacuum in the retail space which we failed to address in a timely manner - shame on us.

ToolNut is just doing what a market responsive retailer should be doing: handle product which their customers want. They asked TSO early on to handle the GRS-16 but we were not ready. So don't throw unkind words at the ToolNut because its TSO who created the problem.

now let's get back to woordworking [wink]
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com





TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2017, 05:28 PM »
I respect TSO products, but since Tool Nut now carries the Insta, I bought one. The fact that the demonstration showed it will fit in my TS75 systainer is a plus, less clutter. I know it's only $10 more than the TSO, but the ruler and possibly 45 degree use does add value.
I ordered one too. The TSO one just costs more than I believe a product like this should cost. Really I think it should be around $99, but yea, so much for that I guess.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1080
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2017, 05:54 PM »
How many of you guys actually bought one of these squares ?

Of those-  how many actually use them ?
For what, and how often ?

Clearly people are buying if retailers are banging down doors to get the products.  But, personally I scratch my head.  I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.

So, I'm curious what you guys are using this on often enough to justify $150+ ? If you sent me one gratis, I wouldn't even carry it in the systainer for the space and weight penalty.  But maybe I'm just not doing the kinds of operations that make this valuable.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2017, 06:28 PM »
How many of you guys actually bought one of these squares ?

Of those-  how many actually use them ?
For what, and how often ?

Clearly people are buying if retailers are banging down doors to get the products.  But, personally I scratch my head.  I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.

So, I'm curious what you guys are using this on often enough to justify $150+ ? If you sent me one gratis, I wouldn't even carry it in the systainer for the space and weight penalty.  But maybe I'm just not doing the kinds of operations that make this valuable.
What method do you use to square a guide rail to a board?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 973
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2017, 07:00 PM »
How many of you guys actually bought one of these squares ?
Of those-  how many actually use them ?
For what, and how often ?
Clearly people are buying if retailers are banging down doors to get the products.  But, personally I scratch my head.  I've had a track saw since the mid 90's when Festool still had the patent , and not once have I ever wished I had a 90deg jig for the rail.
So, I'm curious what you guys are using this on often enough to justify $150+ ? If you sent me one gratis, I wouldn't even carry it in the systainer for the space and weight penalty.  But maybe I'm just not doing the kinds of operations that make this valuable.
Some time ago I would have found this square handy, not for $150 thought. But since I built my own MFT-like bench I don't need it. I mostly build hardwood furniture, everything from beds to bookshelves.
You need to make square cuts. If not a work bench setup then how? Traditional square and pencil?

Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2017, 07:02 PM »
I've never had that need.  Anything I've ever cut can be measured from one end with two witness marks, place rail, and cut.  And that accuracy is plenty for what I do. Within .5mm , even in a hurry and with my eyes.

I guess if I were building cabinets or casework on site I could see a use. But I don't.  I can't see eliminating measuring either.  You could eliminate one tic mark though. But that assumes your end is 90deg to begin with.  More efficient ways to accomplish production volume, and too much $$$ for a couple of times a year use.

Things I do requiring that kind of precision can be cut on one of my mitersaws or a sliding tablesaw if sheetgoods wider than 10-11".

Which one did you buy ? How often are you using it, and what are you cutting ?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 07:17 PM by antss »

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2017, 09:06 PM »
Minor stuff but I have to chuckle at seeing the TN marketing photos showing the square attached to the wrong end of the rail, probably in order to read the brand name. Which conversely is upside down when installed properly, as are the numbers on the scale. while in use.

Such, ahem, attention to detail by the manufacturer speaks volumes as to the potential accuracy of the product. Being 16" along it's reference edge, any minor deviance in the squareness (perpendicularness?) of the 2 important edges will be magnified by a factor of 3 in a 48" cut.

@TSO Products - Hans kudos on handling this with class, it has to sting to have someone copy your hard work, risk and investment while blatantly undercutting you by a few bucks to steal market. I for one would not buy it just because I don't care to reward such behavior.

Soap-box is firmly back in the closet now.

RMW 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 09:08 PM by Richard/RMW »
Add-on products for Festool @ www.ripdogs.com
Discounts for FOG members @ www.ripdogs.com/fog-discount/

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2017, 09:32 PM »
... ruler and possibly 45 degree use does add value.
The ruler adds little value because the distance between the back of the rail and the cut line varies at least +/- 1mm from rail to rail (or rather saw to saw). Unless the scale can be adjusted (Incra style) it is pretty much useless. You could probably calibrate your saws to the square's scale and recut or reposition you splinter strips. But this looks like much trouble.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 10:11 PM by Svar »

Offline TSO Products

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2017, 09:40 PM »
Minor stuff but I have to chuckle at seeing the TN marketing photos showing the square attached to the wrong end of the rail, probably in order to read the brand name. Which conversely is upside down when installed properly, as are the numbers on the scale. while in use.

Such, ahem, attention to detail by the manufacturer speaks volumes as to the potential accuracy of the product. Being 16" along it's reference edge, any minor deviance in the squareness (perpendicularness?) of the 2 important edges will be magnified by a factor of 3 in a 48" cut.

@TSO Products - Hans kudos on handling this with class, it has to sting to have someone copy your hard work, risk and investment while blatantly undercutting you by a few bucks to steal market. I for one would not buy it just because I don't care to reward such behavior.

Soap-box is firmly back in the closet now.

RMW

Richard- at times like this is helps to not be distracted from clearly established goals and business principles.
and thank your kind words.
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2017, 11:54 PM »
Totally weird. Certain people don't like the tool, then bash the cost. Don't buy it, we can say that about any jig, fixture, even power tool. But don't bash it or elude that the seller is ripping anyone off.

Whether you like the tool or believe it has value in the shop has zero relation to what the tool, jig or fixture cost to make and then sell to make a profit.

I can't cut an aluminum square like this in my shop on my CNC, machine the rest, source the other parts and then put it together for what TSO sells it for, let alone make one to resell at that price AND make money.

My square NEVER leaves my rail. I use it hundreds of times a week when I am busy, at least once a day when I am slower. The way I use the square is I bring the track to the ply stack with the square on it.  I am not lifting 50 sheets anywhere, so saying a table or anything else like that is better just makes no sense. It's not how most of us use the square. Heck, I could say why ever buy a track saw, I can mark two hash lines and just use a piece of ply as a guide and use my sidewinder,  one similar complaint I read here about why they don't use the square.

The TSO and most likely any other track saw square does what it is supposed to do, saves me loads of time.

The track saw square helps me cut ply consistently to within 1/32" over 8 feet over and over, most times better, closer to 1/64" . Anyone that needs better might be a tool collector a type person that tests their miter saws claiming a 1/128" deflection, claiming they can't get good miters because of it. Anyone looking for the type of precision I have been reading complaints about here for the square probably should not be using a track saw for super accurate or precise work in the first place. For me a  track saw is not a hyper accurate nor hyper precision tool and I cringe when I see the cabinet installers on site use it as such. Many, if not most times no good comes of it resulting in shoddy work.

Possibly the seller hints the square is more than it is, certainly some readers here claim that to be the case. I never was under the impression TSO claimed it to be some super duper precision making phenomenon. What I got from the website when I purchased it was that it was a square to line up the tracks saw on a clean edge, ply normally and the rail would shoot out at a 90 to that edge. And the square does do that.

This square has value to me and it makes me loads of money, by saving me time. I use it within it's limits. It saves me making those thousands of hash lines 8 feet apart over and over and over. At 150.00 It's just simpler to buy it even though I could make one if I chose to. I like my track saw square(mine is TSO), if I lost it I would buy another the next day.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 01:15 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1080
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2017, 10:15 AM »
Dovetail - are you principally framing houses ?  Then I can see some value to a rail square.  I've never bought 50 sheets at one time ever.  If I did it'd be in a shop setting and I'd then have a materials handling system with a vac gantry to move them to the processing centers.

I'm doing finish work and none of the houses or condos I work in have anywhere near .5mm or 1/32" tolerances for plumb , level and especially square.  Meaning I'm never cutting panels square either. There's always an offset/taper or a parallelogram .  And each panel has a different one - making a jig ,for repeatability, of little use.

So far you're the only one round here that says they actually use one of these.  You mention others, but who ?  And where are they ?  I'm sincerely curious who else uses one (no matter the brand) and what they are using it to cut.  Maybe it's not for me, but clearly they are selling.  I just would like to know what kinds of tasks guys are actually using them for.  Not the marketing pitch, but what  fellas are really using it on.

Your principle use is to make sheetgoods smaller to handle in your shop ?  Which you then take to other tools to process ?  From which the edge you cut with the square is used as a reference edge ?  Is that correct ?

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2017, 12:04 PM »
I do have a TSO square and use it for my DIY projects. In my case mostly plywood for cabinets, etc.

I don't need machine shop tolerances for cabinets. If a panel is 1/32th out of parallel it doesn't effect the end result in any meaningful way. I obsess over too much shop stuff anyway, & have finally learned that there are times when tolerances in the thousandths of an inch are important and when it is not.

Some may recall I was dabbling with making a square before TSO came out with theirs. That effort used an adjustable reference arm so it could be squared perfectly, or within the limits of "perfectly" in my world. The issue it caused was uncertainty whether it had been bumped out of square during or between uses, so I ended up double checking squareness often. This obviated the benefits of quick attachment to the rail.

IF TSO's reference edge is out of square with the edge touching the guide rail by a couple thousandths then the cut would be off by 3X that amount over 4'. In my world this is perfectly acceptable. Even if the TSO square is perfect to 0.000", any crumb of sawdust between the reference edge and the stock being cut, or imperfection in the rail or elsewhere will impart as much or more error.

Come to think of it, I don't know that TSO advertises tolerances anyway. Hans and Eric probably figured out it was best not to go down that rabbit hole and that the results would speak for themselves.

What this all boils down, for me, is I can slap the TSO square on a rail and be comfortable that (1) the tolerance is no different that the last time I used it and (2) that the end result will be good enough for the girls I run with.

This time the soapbox is being padlocked to prevent easy access...

RMW
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 12:12 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2017, 12:22 PM »
My TSO square has lived on an FS rail for the last year of its life. Used mostly for cutting sheet goods for cabinetry, it's saved me from marking twice, placing the rail on the 2 marks and then tweaking the rail to keep it on both marks.

I now mark once and square the rail to the material and then cut.  [cool]

Offline ewils91

  • Posts: 166
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2017, 07:30 PM »
I too would not purchase a blatant copy. My crew fought over the first GRS-16 so I had to buy 2 more...one I keep just for me. I had already purchased one from the red company, whose products I love but I could see the clear advantage to the GRS-16 so ended up buying those.

I never saw the GRS-16 as a copy of the red company's because the entire tool was changed and improved in my opinion. I'll keep buying TSO products from them or a retailer if they decide to go that route.

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 486
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2017, 08:59 PM »
I use it regularly for sheet goods.Of course i could get by without one, but it's simpler and faster.
Just for today..

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2017, 11:46 PM »
Exactly, it makes life simpler and faster for sheet goods.

The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 312
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2017, 06:19 AM »
Blah. Blah. Blah. You foggers supporting the knock off miss the point. It's just about the letter of the law to you. What about being straight up, any of y'all willing to honor a hand shake.  There are many excellent third party options for festools. Did tso not come on this site and work with foggers to develop this product. Whatever in the end who cares, I mean the new one is cheaper, so let's encourage festool to move manufacturing to china😁

Offline Atonwa

  • Posts: 43
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2017, 06:39 AM »
Another happy TSO GSR user here. I am a one man show so I use it to cut down sheet goods before the pieces come into the shop. To me it's simply a convenience tool that I am very happy with and shortens the time I need to get work prepped. No more marking in multiple locations, trying to clamp rail on both ends, etc to make a cut.

Everyone is in a different situation but support from the manufacturer is worth more to me than saving a few bucks here and there. With my square I know the history of it and who to contact with questions so I will continue to support another small business like TSO like I would like people to support mine.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2017, 06:50 AM »
Another happy TSO GSR user here. I am a one man show so I use it to cut down sheet goods before the pieces come into the shop. To me it's simply a convenience tool that I am very happy with and shortens the time I need to get work prepped. No more marking in multiple locations, trying to clamp rail on both ends, etc to make a cut.

Everyone is in a different situation but support from the manufacturer is worth more to me than saving a few bucks here and there. With my square I know the history of it and who to contact with questions so I will continue to support another small business like TSO like I would like people to support mine.

Ditto. I use mine to break down sheets of ply to make it easier to get them into my basement shop. There is no direct outside access so I have to carry anything down a narrow dog-leg stair which puts the wall at risk of being damaged. Even with a 24x96 piece I have to stand it up at the landing to make the turn and descend the second set of stairs. The TSO GRS16-PE makes taking sheets of ply down to a manageable size an easy task. If both squares had been on the market at the time I would have still turned to the TSO square as I like the design better. One important point is that you can still use your guide rail clamp.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2017, 08:05 AM »
Blah. Blah. Blah. You foggers supporting the knock off miss the point. It's just about the letter of the law to you. What about being straight up, any of y'all willing to honor a hand shake....

I agree, its about integrity.  I see it no different than some guy walking down the street offering to sell you an extension ladder.  You know the guy stole the ladder because you recognize it as your neighbor's, and you buy it anyways.

Deciding this one is a no brainer.  One guy is selling a stolen idea, the other guy worked with FOG to develop a product that the community wanted.  If you are having any trouble deciding which one to buy, well, I question your integrity. 
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Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2017, 08:42 AM »
For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2017, 12:38 PM »
John,

I normally avoid debating stuff on the net, it's just too much to me like standing on a street corner preaching to passers by. Everyone has opinions and I don't particularly care if anyone agrees with mine or if I even hear theirs.

However, I have to say I totally but respectfully disagree with your statement. If we all take the cynical easy choice wherever faced with it then as a society we are all worse off. Doing the right thing, whatever you might consider that to be, is important and worthwhile.

Seems like I am gonna have to burn that soapbox.  [doh]

RMW

For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John
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Offline bnaboatbuilder

  • Posts: 126
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2017, 12:55 PM »
Richard, so which came first the Ripdog Rip Guides or Seneca Woodworking Parallel Guides? They do the same thing and are so basically the same design save for an angle versus an inside corner.
- John

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2017, 01:21 PM »
John,

I normally avoid debating stuff on the net, it's just too much to me like standing on a street corner preaching to passers by. Everyone has opinions and I don't particularly care if anyone agrees with mine or if I even hear theirs.

However, I have to say I totally but respectfully disagree with your statement. If we all take the cynical easy choice wherever faced with it then as a society we are all worse off. Doing the right thing, whatever you might consider that to be, is important and worthwhile.

Seems like I am gonna have to burn that soapbox.  [doh]

RMW

Yah want a match.

John

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2017, 02:35 PM »
There is an old thread on here where I was yapping about making them but as usual taking my time. Sometime before I finalized anything Ron Wenner emailed me to tell me he was planning to offer the same thing. They hit the market around the same time.

Both products and the later Precision guides were all copies of a homemade set that another Fogger posted. None of us actually innovated anything over the original poster's idea, nor did anyone claim any intellectual property ownership. Ron's DomiPlate was also the result of improving on a Fogger's homemade jig and making it available to the public.

I guess I get your point relative to my indignation, but IMHO the situations are somewhat different. TSO did not release their product prior to applying for a patent. Anyone copying it is clearly offering a center-finger salute to the IP holder.

My reaction to the other John's post was more about the idea that our times/society is not the place for discussions about integrity.

The funny thing is, I now recall that thread ending after Shane schwacked me (rightly) for using the FOG to market a product that competed with Festool's own parallel guides.

RMW

Richard, so which came first the Ripdog Rip Guides or Seneca Woodworking Parallel Guides? They do the same thing and are so basically the same design save for an angle versus an inside corner.
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Offline ewils91

  • Posts: 166
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2017, 05:43 PM »
For better or worst business is based on taking an idea and trying to sell and there is very little integrity, wake up and smell the coffee. The better/first/cheapest/most expensive product doesn't always win and the few people here discussing it won't mean a ratass to sales. If you want to talk integrity this is the wrong time and wrong society to do it in. This whole thread is clear evidence.

John

I for one do what I feel is the right thing even when no one is watching and even if it is a futile gesture. I'll do this until the day I die.

I honor a deal and a handshake even when I realize I screwed up. I've made so much repeat business by being honorable, and I refuse to buy a knock off product. It's my choice and the way I live my life, your mileage may vary.

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2017, 10:47 PM »
I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2017, 07:55 AM »
I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

I agree.  The price is the same for Festool products so we buy on service and from the people we feel good about spending our money with.  I can't feel good about giving my money to people who's integrity I have to question.  Dan has made the right choice, I hope Toolnut does the same.
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Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2017, 09:40 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1897
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2017, 11:35 AM »
I know Hans said don't throw unkind words at toolnut. But they frequent this forum and if they know IP is being compromised by a product they are selling, I question my purchasing from them in the future unless they address this ethically. There are plenty of festool dealers out there for me to choose from.

Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.
+1

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 39
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2017, 12:00 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1897
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2017, 12:17 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.
My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.
+1

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2017, 12:37 PM »
Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.


I write my tools off as a business expense so I pay the use tax.  Even if I didn't that still wouldn't change what Toolnut is doing is questionable.
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Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2017, 05:30 PM »
You actually keep a separate accounting sub-category in your books that differentiates between locally bought tools and materials vs. those that you buy out of state ?

And then tally those at the end of each month; file a PA-1 and remit a check with ?

Holy cow !  I'll bet you're one of the few round here.

Bravo.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:34 PM by antss »

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2017, 09:07 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.

REAXX definitely had some innovations over the Sawstop; not damaging the blade and the dual-fire cartridges for one.  I've got a PCS that I'm super happy with, and have never had the brake fire - but I can see that for someone with employees how the REAXX technology would be a win.
My point is that it was well known that there was an IP dispute between Sawstop and Bosch but I never read of people questioning the ethics of any retailer selling the REAXX.

Neither sawstop nor Bosch are small entities although Bosch is arguably much larger. I own a sawstop and love it, but wasn't convinced that Bosch stole any IP ( i.e software, firmware ) to build their version, and their implementation looks different and had different features and so the idea of flesh detection itself being patentable seems questionable since there are other technologies out there for flesh detection. There are patent battles every day between large companies, and I'm not sure that everyone will agree with the court ruling on Bosch.

Arguably, this square implementation looks exactly the same with some tweaks and it's up to each person to decide what they think. I wrote what I think and as someone whose dealt with IP issues in the past I feel that it's good to support an entity that is small and niche, works with the members of this forum, takes feedback and ideas and comes up with innovative products. Whether that resonates with anyone else is up to them,  but I don't have to support retailers on this forum that don't see it that way.

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2017, 09:10 PM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3145
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2017, 09:44 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2017, 10:23 PM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Cheese

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2017, 11:26 PM »
 Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2017, 01:19 AM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 01:24 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline ewils91

  • Posts: 166
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2017, 07:21 AM »
I wish this thread would have stayed on the topic of the new product. I was only interested in how it compared to the TSO version. I'd like to know why one might choose the TSO version over this one, other than because it came first in design but not in concept.

As far as functionality to  my eye the new one does the same thing and for me it would work the same. So go cheaper if you dont have the funds. I like the TSO and use it daily.

Functionality is sometime not the sole reason to buy a product from a certain  place though. One reason to go with TSO is you are buying straight from a small US company directly rather than from a tool store that just distributes the tool. So if service is a major issue TSO could be the better buy.

For example even the seller said they would have to contact the manufacturer to answer a question, with TSO that step is skipped. This communication and service is important to many buyers.

I agree. Heck, TSO comes here regularly to monitor for problems and improvement opportunities and seems to jump all over problems and even communication shortcomings in their company.

Has anyone seen anything from the actual company producing this wanna be? They may have somewhere but I haven't heard or seen it.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1080
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2017, 09:42 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.





Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2017, 10:03 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.

Why don't you put the screws to the guy that stole the IP, or the retailers that are willing to look the other way to make a buck.  I've met some of the guys at Toolnut, and I've known Shane for a decade, and met him half a dozen times.  Nice guys, all of them.  They've earned a good reputation.  It seems shortsighted for them to offer a product that in a direct ripoff a well know product here on the FOG, from a well respected FOG member.  They chose to risk their reputation.  Don't blame the guys that don't like the choice they've made.   
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2017, 10:06 AM »
At the end of the day what will happen falls into TSO's hands.  Will they spend money to defend their position on patents pending (there may be multiple patents pending on a product). It may or may not make financial sense.  This is why many copycat items are produced in China.  Expensive and not a good legal system.

If they do, the action will be against the manufacturer.  The retailers have not done anything wrong.  Usually it will be a cease and desist letter from legal counsel and then escalate from there if necessary.  If then real legal action is required then the normal course of business would be to seek a ruling and obtain possibly a legal injunction to force the manufacturer to remove the items from the market.  Once again. - the retailers have done nothing wrong.  If an injunction is granted, and if so desired, then there are proceedings to grant damages if it makes economical sense to do so.  Tough to collect money from a turnip so to say.

I am certain that TSO will be tight lipped here regarding this situation for obvious reasons.  I am also certain that they appreciate the moral support for their products and also their customer service.

And I would bet money that they are not holding a grudge nor have any bad feelings against dealers.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Svar

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2017, 10:08 AM »
Some food for thought for all of you outraged at Toolnuts ethics :

Have you / are you reporting your purchases from them to your state and paying the use tax on those purchases ?  Or the other internet sources you buy your tools from ?

Thought not.

It's easy to be ethically outraged when it's not your money that the questionable ethics are affecting.

I've paid a lot of good hard earned after tax money to toolnut. So it is my money.

And are you sending in your Washington State Consumer Use Tax Form with payment for all of those ToolNut purchases ?    You're obligated to pay that under Washington law even if you used your after Federal income taxed money to buy the stuff.
Translation:
- N stole from M.
- Don't complain, you might under report your taxes.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11 AM »
Those who want to discuss the pros and cons of the square (s) ..... rock on.

Those who want to have a taxes discussion please take elsewhere ..... like private.

Seth

Offline antss

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2017, 11:14 AM »
Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points :

1.  It seems most don't realize or are simply glossing over is that "patent pending" does not afford much protection.  If TSO's patent is denied - then this discussion is moot.  If it's granted , then they can seek a royalty from the infringers.  It's all just hypothetical now.

If it's denied, then companies like toonut have wasted an opportunity.  And customer's denied a product.  If TSO's clip or whatever is patented , then they'll have recourse.  Assuming they haven't buried the other guys with a better product first !

2. Any discussion of ethics by folks needs to tempered by looking in the mirror. I bring up the tax issue because anyone that is claiming ToolNut or anyone else is acting unethically has no leg to stand on if they are not squeaky clean themselves.  And most people are not 100%.

This "use" tax issue is an easy gotcha because most guys are ignorant to the laws ( not a valid excuse) and or simply don't feel like abiding.  I'm not deriding civil disobedience , but I'm fairly confident that most of the guys questioning TN's motives are not paying use taxes at some point.  Especially rich if they buy from TN now and don't live in NY, VA, & KY.

I suppose it can be argued that not paying taxes is not unethical , but it certainly is illegal.

I think TSO will triumph in the end.  But, not because of a patent; but because they simply have a better run business with better people.  And because they are innovators, not copy cats.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2017, 01:20 PM »
Brice - et al .

I'm not putting the screws to anyone.  I have two points...

The patent pending issue is a legal matter that TSO seems to have the upper hand in.  I'm not really concerned about the legal aspect, its the ethical part that bothers me. 

It doesn't matter one bit if I'm the least ethical guy on the planet, I'm going to decide where to spend my money in no small part based on the people/companies that I feel I can respect and trust.

TSO/Hans worked with the community to develop its products.  They have earned respect and the business of the FOG members that wanted these products. Now another retailer comes along selling a ripoff product to undercut the guy that earned the respect and the business.  That doesn't sit right with me.  Adding insult to injury that are supporting a guy that stole IP.
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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1897
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2017, 03:18 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.
+1

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 672
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2017, 05:38 PM »
Then I'd suggest you purchase both versions of this product, the original and the wannabe version. Compare them, report back and then return the losing product for a refund.
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2017, 06:25 PM »
Interesting, I don't recall ever reading anyone applying the same principle to any retailer of the Bosch REAXX.


Apples and oranges...

Only because some people don't like the founder of SS while the folks at TSO are liked.

Its already been mentioned that Bosch spend time/money to improve on the design, its not a 1:1 copy like the knock off guide rail square.  Very big difference.
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Offline geoffshep

  • Posts: 146
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2017, 09:04 AM »
I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 

The following 'new' products (in this link) look pretty similar to existing products to me:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-sales-dealer-area/tso-launches-new-20mm-workholding-accessories/
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:10 AM by geoffshep »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3145
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2017, 10:39 AM »

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 


The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]     [sad]

http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 10:58 AM by Cheese »

Online DynaGlide

  • Posts: 33
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2017, 11:00 AM »

I guess I am missing something here but there seems to be support for one lot and outrage at the other. 


The Cliffs Notes version:
TSO designed the Guide Rail Square, and about a year ago they released it for sale to the public. There was much interaction between Hans (TSO) and some members of the FOG prior to its release. After the release, Hans became very active on the FOG, soliciting feedback both good & bad, on the product in order for TSO to fine tune their square. [cool]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-guide-rail-squares/

A year later a NEW Guide Rail Square appears that is a virtual copy of the original square. The only substantive change is the anodizing color and a $10 reduction in price.  [sad]     [sad]

http://www.toolnut.com/insta-railsquare-festool-makita-track-saw-square.html

You missed his point. Follow the link be posted.

Offline geoffshep

  • Posts: 146
Re: New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada
« Reply #115 on: July 20, 2017, 11:11 AM »
Thanks dyna - my post now edited to add clarity  [wink]