Author Topic: Parf Dogs  (Read 126629 times)

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Offline grbmds

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 07:03 AM »

I'm curious what additional functionality you get from adding the Parf Dogs to an already complete Veritas Clamping Kit (which also includes dogs).

As Peter Parfitt details here starting at 2:45
the Parf Dogs can be used to achieve dead accurate crosscuts on the MFT/3 table without the use of the fence. There are other uses but the crosscutting feature sells me on them.

Dave

Further question then - Unless I'm missing something, the Veritas set, given it also contains multiple dogs that fit in the MFT holes, would server exactly the same purpose. How many dogs do you need on one particular task. Seems like the Veritas kit has sufficient dogs and even adds clamps which fit in the holes. I'm thinking that this would be the extent of what you would usually need unless there was some unique job you were doing that required additional dogs.
Randy

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 07:22 AM »

Further question then - Unless I'm missing something, the Veritas set, given it also contains multiple dogs that fit in the MFT holes, would server exactly the same purpose. How many dogs do you need on one particular task. Seems like the Veritas kit has sufficient dogs and even adds clamps which fit in the holes. I'm thinking that this would be the extent of what you would usually need unless there was some unique job you were doing that required additional dogs.

Hi -

The Parf dogs actually complement the Veritas set. The main difference between the two is that the Veritas MFT set was designed for work-holding, where the Parf dogs (the tall ones) are intended as a complement to track saw (and similar)operations - more about positioning. Certainly the small SS dogs have a lot of functional overlap with the small dogs in the Veritas set.

Cheers -

Rob

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 10:25 AM »
I like that the collar height will be 10mm which will allow me to use a 1/4" sacrificial piece of MDF under the work piece with enough additional height for the collar to register the work piece.
 Using the Parfs for cutting, the width of the Festool guide rail effects the kerf line to intersect a row of holes -- I'm in the minority with reluctance to adding kerf cuts to the nice MFT work surface and even less with kerfs intersecting holes so my sacrificial 1/4" MDF along with the well designed Lee Valley Parfs will do me nicely.
I'll be ordering two (2) sets of both the long and short versions.  [thumbs up]

Hi Ron,

The kerf line is just a factor of the 96 mm pitch and guide rail width and we have been used to this with the original design. It is not an issue for me but if anyone is really concerned then one can either follow your lead and have a sacrificial (1/4" MDF) under your work piece or use a 1-2" parallel sided spacer between the Parfs and the guide rail to move things over. I think that there are people around who do not like to saw into their MFT top at all and so your option of the sacrificial piece under the work may be attractive to them. For me, I am happy to just use it as it comes.

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 10:48 AM »
I like that the collar height will be 10mm which will allow me to use a 1/4" sacrificial piece of MDF under the work piece with enough additional height for the collar to register the work piece.
 Using the Parfs for cutting, the width of the Festool guide rail effects the kerf line to intersect a row of holes -- I'm in the minority with reluctance to adding kerf cuts to the nice MFT work surface and even less with kerfs intersecting holes so my sacrificial 1/4" MDF along with the well designed Lee Valley Parfs will do me nicely.
I'll be ordering two (2) sets of both the long and short versions.  [thumbs up]

Hi Ron,

The kerf line is just a factor of the 96 mm pitch and guide rail width and we have been used to this with the original design. It is not an issue for me but if anyone is really concerned then one can either follow your lead and have a sacrificial (1/4" MDF) under your work piece or use a 1-2" parallel sided spacer between the Parfs and the guide rail to move things over. I think that there are people around who do not like to saw into their MFT top at all and so your option of the sacrificial piece under the work may be attractive to them. For me, I am happy to just use it as it comes.

Peter

Now that the Parfs had made it very easy to duplicate the MFT tops perhaps I'll get crazy & start kerfing my tops also...  [unsure]
It's really a minor concern.

Hopefully Rob will take your lead & also begin to offer the twist drill bits that you demonstrated while making your MFT tops.  I'd prefer to see it offered with a ~1/2" shank.
 

When I replicated my last MFT top I was tempted to leave one column and one row of holes un-drilled that would be at the right spots for sawing (North-South and East-West). Some people might find that tricky as they might have to do some cuts in different areas of the MFT3. For me that would not apply as I have made extensions for my MFT3 which allow me to always do my cuts in the same place.

Peter

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 12:49 PM »
^^^^ I plan on buying a replacement MFT top & use it as a template jig to make my own long table top that way making the 20mm holes spacing would be exact & precise
Using Peter's process of copying the top one could just walk the jig across a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF & precisely cut all the holes  in minutes .
 The MFT tables are just too small for my use .
 I'd keep the MFT top as jig over with all my other saved jigs .  
 So the Parf dogs are on the next to buy list of mine  ;D
Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2013, 01:20 PM »
^^^^ I plan on buying a replacement MFT top & use it as a template jig to make my own long table top that way making the 20mm holes spacing would be exact & precise
Using Peter's process of copying the top one could just walk the jig across a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF & precisely cut all the holes  in minutes .
 The MFT tables are just too small for my use .
 I'd keep the MFT top as jig over with all my other saved jigs .  
 So the Parf dogs are on the next to buy list of mine  ;D

Hi Slappy, one of the things I have on my list to do is to make a slightly larger mobile bench with the MFT pattern of holes done the way you suggest. The holes make jig work, work holding and, of course, sawing using the Parf Dogs, so easy. My bench will be on heavy duty castors, have some storage underneath and be able to support most of an 8x4 sheet if required. At a guess (I have not designed it yet) it might be 800 x 1600 mm (about 2/3 of an 8x4 in each direction.

Peter

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2013, 01:32 PM »
^^^^ I plan on buying a replacement MFT top & use it as a template jig to make my own long table top that way making the 20mm holes spacing would be exact & precise
Using Peter's process of copying the top one could just walk the jig across a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF & precisely cut all the holes  in minutes .
 The MFT tables are just too small for my use .
 I'd keep the MFT top as jig over with all my other saved jigs .  
 So the Parf dogs are on the next to buy list of mine  ;D

Hi Slappy, one of the things I have on my list to do is to make a slightly larger mobile bench with the MFT pattern of holes done the way you suggest. The holes make jig work, work holding and, of course, sawing using the Parf Dogs, so easy. My bench will be on heavy duty castors, have some storage underneath and be able to support most of an 8x4 sheet if required. At a guess (I have not designed it yet) it might be 800 x 1600 mm (about 2/3 of an 8x4 in each direction.

Peter
I'll be making a top only & then design 2 supports to hold up the top , I plan to have the supports  to be multiple use small tables that would act as a support system  to the removable top .  I want to be able to break down to save floor space BUT not for on site use . Just so I'd have flexibility to use the center of the room . the smaller support tables would also have the 20mm holes cut to their tops as well

 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??  
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:38 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2013, 01:40 PM »

 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??   

I will leave that for the good folks at Lee Valley to digest but I suspect that for the very few that need it you would be better to drill and tap yourself - I have done this and it is not rocket science.

Peter

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2013, 02:18 PM »

 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??   

I will leave that for the good folks at Lee Valley to digest but I suspect that for the very few that need it you would be better to drill and tap yourself - I have done this and it is not rocket science.

Peter
Yeah , i was thinking after posting , that it would best (cheaper)if I did drill & tap my own .
 But really to take the usefulness to the maximum a top access point is a good idea on " ANY " of these types of  Table Dogs
Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2013, 03:02 PM »

 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??   

I will leave that for the good folks at Lee Valley to digest but I suspect that for the very few that need it you would be better to drill and tap yourself - I have done this and it is not rocket science.

Peter
Yeah , i was thinking after posting , that it would best (cheaper)if I did drill & tap my own .
 But really to take the usefulness to the maximum a top access point is a good idea on " ANY " of these types of  Table Dogs

I understand.

Peter

Offline grbmds

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2013, 05:11 PM »


Hi -

The Parf dogs actually complement the Veritas set. The main difference between the two is that the Veritas MFT set was designed for work-holding, where the Parf dogs (the tall ones) are intended as a complement to track saw (and similar)operations - more about positioning. Certainly the small SS dogs have a lot of functional overlap with the small dogs in the Veritas set.

Cheers -

Rob


OK I get that. Would it be safe to say that a combination of the Veritas set plus the tall Parf Dogs would be a good mix? It would seem that 2 tall Parf Dogs with the Veritas set would be sufficient to make the MFT table more flexible and a little easier to square up with the fence and hold work down for assembly, etc.

R
Randy

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2013, 05:42 PM »
(snip)
 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??  

Hi -

The small SS dogs will have an M8 tapped through hole.... The tall Parf dogs just have the tapped hole on the bottom...

Cheers -

Rob

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2013, 05:55 PM »
(snip)
 any chance that some Perf dogs have a opening on top that is threaded for adding jigs ??  

Hi -

The small SS dogs will have an M8 tapped through hole.... The tall Parf dogs just have the tapped hole on the bottom...

Cheers -

Rob

Now We/re Talkin'  [eek]

That is a HUGH +  selling point , over other "DoGs" on the market  IMO !
 that opens up making a jig that could have 2 dogs attached like on a angle bar OR even some of the 8020 rails that would make for some quick-set-up fences   [tongue]
 edit
 this makes making side rails on my newly to be designed/made extended type of Ho'made MFT top very easy with these dogs attracted to some 8020 rails

 that would be square & parallel to each other ,
opens up endless types of cutting jigs , clamping jigs , low profile router clamping jigs
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 06:15 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2013, 08:04 PM »
^^^^ I plan on buying a replacement MFT top & use it as a template jig to make my own long table top that way making the 20mm holes spacing would be exact & precise
Using Peter's process of copying the top one could just walk the jig across a 4 x 8 sheet of MDF & precisely cut all the holes  in minutes .
 The MFT tables are just too small for my use .
 I'd keep the MFT top as jig over with all my other saved jigs .  
 So the Parf dogs are on the next to buy list of mine  ;D

Hi Slappy, one of the things I have on my list to do is to make a slightly larger mobile bench with the MFT pattern of holes done the way you suggest. The holes make jig work, work holding and, of course, sawing using the Parf Dogs, so easy. My bench will be on heavy duty castors, have some storage underneath and be able to support most of an 8x4 sheet if required. At a guess (I have not designed it yet) it might be 800 x 1600 mm (about 2/3 of an 8x4 in each direction.

Peter
May be something like this?
93898-0

93900-1
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2013, 08:22 PM »
Quote
May be something like this?
Yes , but have the top be able to be taken off & placed on a panel cart for storage , I can't have a stationary table like that , it has to be broke down at times . I'd also run sets of the holes closer to the edges to use them as rail supports with the parf dogs in the edge holes 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 08:29 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2013, 10:09 PM »
Quote
May be something like this?
Yes , but have the top be able to be taken off & placed on a panel cart for storage , I can't have a stationary table like that , it has to be broke down at times . I'd also run sets of the holes closer to the edges to use them as rail supports with the parf dogs in the edge holes 
my suggestion was mainly for Peter as he suggested he needed, wheels hole grid, and storage with a larger area than the MFT. And mine has all those points. :)
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2013, 11:45 PM »
Jerome , your table is VERY nice , Nice job on that  [tongue]

 I wish I had that much room to build one like yours , I could use all those drawers for sure !

 does anyone ever laminate the tops with something like Formica   ?  ?  Seems that would make the MDF last longer ?  ?
Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2013, 12:57 AM »
....

 my suggestion was mainly for Peter as he suggested he needed, wheels hole grid, and storage with a larger area than the MFT. And mine has all those points. :)
Nice bench Jerome - with some of my new super castors it would fly around the workshop. Please would you empty out all of those odds and ends before you ship it to me !

Cheers.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 02:52 AM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline rjwz28

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2013, 02:57 AM »
Can someone point out to me what is the difference between the Parf Dogs and regular bench dogs besides that the Parf ones are taller?  No offense to the inventor, but I watched the video and wonder what am I not getting?

Thanks,
Rob

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2013, 03:39 AM »
....

 my suggestion was mainly for Peter as he suggested he needed, wheels hole grid, and storage with a larger area than the MFT. And mine has all those points. :)
Nice bench Jerome - with some of my new super castors it would fly around the workshop. Please would you empty out all of those odds and ends before you ship it to me !

Cheers.

Peter
Thanks for the complement, No problem except you would need to pay the shipping, air package from Thailand and my guess is that it is somewhere about 70kg mark. :o :o [jawdrop]

There are some construction pics and detail of the construction at.
.
http://Meekings.selfip.com/nui/Groups-of-photos/Wood_work_etc/Pages/Workbench.html

FWIW it can be easly be taken apart for transport, and both the boxes of draws have their own wheels for easy movement.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2013, 03:52 AM »
I think that we will see a growth in the building of custom benches as it is easy make some 20mm holes, where needed (and no more), for the dogs and produce perfect right angle cuts every time.

Thanks for the pictures Jerome.

Peter

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2013, 07:38 AM »
I think that we will see a growth in the building of custom benches as it is easy make some 20mm holes, where needed (and no more), for the dogs and produce perfect right angle cuts every time.

Thanks for the pictures Jerome.

Peter
There are a few more on the making of the template I used and a few more items using the 96mm grid.

Template and a few items

And here.
making the template
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 07:44 AM by Jerome »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Wuffles

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2013, 08:23 AM »
Without meaning to hijack the thread...

I've just had an 8' x 4' sheet of MR 18mm MDF cut out by a local CNC company, about 220 holes at 20mm. Whilst I was at it I figured a template might be handy for the future, so taken from someone else's idea I had a half sheet made up with registration holes for 20mm dogs in the four corners (for repetition) and then the rest of the holes spaced correctly using a 30mm hole for my guide bush to conveniently drop straight into allowing the use of a 20mm straight cutter.

£100 all in. Was quite happy with that considering I haven't had to spend any time on it other than dropping the sheets off and picking up after. Looking forward to using the template to sneakily convert my Wife's Ikea step-up (featured in another thread) into a handy clamping stand for use indoors and also to pop some holes into my CT26 custom made top - idea also stolen from another thread.
Tool list updated to reflect knowledge :: hammer, screwdriver, one pozi bit, and another bigger hammer.

Offline grbmds

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2013, 01:59 PM »
Getting a top done using a CNC seems to me to be the only way to get complete accuracy. The Festool tops are expensive but accurate. Doing it even with a template seems risky. If any holes aren't exactly drilled right accuracy will suffer. I think we all like the concept of finding a way to create jigs and these Festool tops on our own, but I'll stick with Festool's tops for now. The dogs and clamping kits are a great idea though and, especially the clamping kit would make securement of parts easier and faster, especially for assembly but cutting also.
Randy

Offline joiner1970

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Re: Re: Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2013, 03:01 PM »

Looking forward to using the template to sneakily convert my Wife's Ikea step-up (featured in another thread)

Lol I can imagine someone sneaking around drill mft holes in any flat surface they can without getting caught.

Offline Slappy

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2013, 04:20 PM »
Getting a top done using a CNC seems to me to be the only way to get complete accuracy. The Festool tops are expensive but accurate. Doing it even with a template seems risky. If any holes aren't exactly drilled right accuracy will suffer. I think we all like the concept of finding a way to create jigs and these Festool tops on our own, but I'll stick with Festool's tops for now. The dogs and clamping kits are a great idea though and, especially the clamping kit would make securement of parts easier and faster, especially for assembly but cutting also.
I myself have been able to accurately duplicate many high tolerance needed templates over onto another board very successfully ,
It's all about getting  solid stable reference points , with a new MFT top & these parf dogs (or any pair of the other threaded dogs bolted from the top then the underside ) as long as there at least two reference points it can be drilled OR use of a good high tolerance trim cut router bit .
 I like the trim cut bits (1" deep ones) as the cut is precisely perpendicular to the top surface .  I myself have been very satisfied that I can repeat this all day long on production work , Yes I have to predrill a hole that allows the bit & bearing  to enter but the way it cuts the risk of a plunge bit not staying in reference is gone .
 this is where a non-plunge router is useful , I have one Porter Cable 890 router that is it's only function , the use of the trim cut-off bits at just over a $100.oo for the PC on sale it's a no brainer single use tool  , with 3  flute cut-off  bits  , I end up with a very  fine cut surface . I'm not saying this is the best way but I have been able to duplicate a template to where you can't tell which piece is the template when I'm done
 Everyone has their own processes that they are comfortable with  & If you feel you can't do as I do that's great go the CNC route .  It's a what works for you is the best method .

    
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 05:53 PM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Rob Lee

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Parf Dogs Now available for shipment...
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2013, 05:42 PM »
Hi -

These are now in stock, and available for shipment!

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71185&cat=51&ap=1

Have to give Kudos to our development and manufacturing staff...in fewer than 7 days, we went from initial agreement with Peter, through a re-design phase, Engineering and QC, to stock on the shelf....write-ups, pricing, and web treatment too! Even have orders headed for export (UK and Australia, so far).

We have never come close to being that fast before!

Cheers -

Rob

Offline cliffp

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2013, 05:49 PM »
Order placed!
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline Daver

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2013, 06:01 PM »
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Offline grbmds

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2013, 01:17 AM »
Getting a top done using a CNC seems to me to be the only way to get complete accuracy. The Festool tops are expensive but accurate. Doing it even with a template seems risky. If any holes aren't exactly drilled right accuracy will suffer. I think we all like the concept of finding a way to create jigs and these Festool tops on our own, but I'll stick with Festool's tops for now. The dogs and clamping kits are a great idea though and, especially the clamping kit would make securement of parts easier and faster, especially for assembly but cutting also.
I myself have been able to accurately duplicate many high tolerance needed templates over onto another board very successfully ,
It's all about getting  solid stable reference points , with a new MFT top & these parf dogs (or any pair of the other threaded dogs bolted from the top then the underside ) as long as there at least two reference points it can be drilled OR use of a good high tolerance trim cut router bit .
 I like the trim cut bits (1" deep ones) as the cut is precisely perpendicular to the top surface .  I myself have been very satisfied that I can repeat this all day long on production work , Yes I have to predrill a hole that allows the bit & bearing  to enter but the way it cuts the risk of a plunge bit not staying in reference is gone .
 this is where a non-plunge router is useful , I have one Porter Cable 890 router that is it's only function , the use of the trim cut-off bits at just over a $100.oo for the PC on sale it's a no brainer single use tool  , with 3  flute cut-off  bits  , I end up with a very  fine cut surface . I'm not saying this is the best way but I have been able to duplicate a template to where you can't tell which piece is the template when I'm done
 Everyone has their own processes that they are comfortable with  & If you feel you can't do as I do that's great go the CNC route .  It's a what works for you is the best method .

    

When you say "trim cut bit" is that the generic name under which they are sold? Are they sold in 20 mm diameter? Will a spiral upcut bit do the same job? I suppose the spiral bit might not be available in that size.
Randy