Author Topic: Parf Dogs  (Read 116661 times)

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Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2013, 02:03 AM »
 might be using the wrong term
but these are what I use
but I use the 3 flute model  I'll post the bosch p/n in the morning for the 3 flute model  I've used both the 1/2" & the 1/4" shank

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-85266M-Diameter-Laminate-Bearing/product-reviews/B000GY9WCC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
 I'm Not actually drilling the hole I'm cutting the hole out with a bearing loaded trim cut router bit , the 3 flute give a fine cut surface , the bearing actually copies the holes & cuts an exact copy of the template on the new board .
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 02:07 AM by Slappy »
Mike

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2013, 04:22 AM »
might be using the wrong term
but these are what I use
but I use the 3 flute model  I'll post the bosch p/n in the morning for the 3 flute model  I've used both the 1/2" & the 1/4" shank

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-85266M-Diameter-Laminate-Bearing/product-reviews/B000GY9WCC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
 I'm Not actually drilling the hole I'm cutting the hole out with a bearing loaded trim cut router bit , the 3 flute give a fine cut surface , the bearing actually copies the holes & cuts an exact copy of the template on the new board .

I would not use a flush cutter like this as I do not believe that I could get the accuracy and consistency required - it will also take a lot longer than using a single operation with a 20mm cutter.

Peter

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1680
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2013, 07:49 AM »
might be using the wrong term
but these are what I use
but I use the 3 flute model  I'll post the bosch p/n in the morning for the 3 flute model  I've used both the 1/2" & the 1/4" shank

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-85266M-Diameter-Laminate-Bearing/product-reviews/B000GY9WCC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
 I'm Not actually drilling the hole I'm cutting the hole out with a bearing loaded trim cut router bit , the 3 flute give a fine cut surface , the bearing actually copies the holes & cuts an exact copy of the template on the new board .

I would not use a flush cutter like this as I do not believe that I could get the accuracy and consistency required - it will also take a lot longer than using a single operation with a 20mm cutter.

Peter

Peter,

I've seen your video. My concern with the replication process is getting the 20mm holed drilled exactly perpendicular to the top. My experience with using the type of bit you demonstrated was that it causes enough vibration during the drilling that the drill moves around at least slightly. I used it to drill holes in my workbench top for regular bench dogs and the result was usable but not at the precision that the MFT tops come from Festool. I did just buy the Parf dogs from Lee Valley though because I think they are a great idea.
Randy

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 265
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2013, 08:22 AM »
Hi,

After watching Peter's video on youtube it sounds like the TS 75 will not pass by the Parf dogs on the track? Is this true?

Thanks,
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2013, 08:50 AM »
Hi,

After watching Peter's video on youtube it sounds like the TS 75 will not pass by the Parf dogs on the track? Is this true?

Thanks,
Gerry

Yes, unless the stock is very thick. It is simple to make a spacer (parallel strip of 19mm MDF would do) that fits between the rail and the Parf Dogs but it is only for those people using the TS75. I have seen, perhaps it was on the FOG, a picture of some small 19mm MDF discs that someone made - they had 20mm holes in the middle and fitted down on the Parf Dog - very simple.

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2013, 08:54 AM »

Peter,

I've seen your video. My concern with the replication process is getting the 20mm holed drilled exactly perpendicular to the top. My experience with using the type of bit you demonstrated was that it causes enough vibration during the drilling that the drill moves around at least slightly. I used it to drill holes in my workbench top for regular bench dogs and the result was usable but not at the precision that the MFT tops come from Festool. I did just buy the Parf dogs from Lee Valley though because I think they are a great idea.

You do need to be careful. Some people have used a spiral up-cut cutter in a router to maintain the squareness. Others have used a miniature drill press (but I do not have one). You can make up a guide block which I have done. This will be picked up in the new Parf Dog video.

Peter

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2013, 09:06 AM »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline Oldwood

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  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2013, 09:17 AM »
Thanks for clearing that up Peter. I wonder if something fastened to the rail might not be more convenient as long as it was light weight & accurately made?

Thanks,
Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Steve Rowe

  • Posts: 820
  • Teach them safety when they are young.
Re: Parf Dogs Now available for shipment...
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2013, 10:29 AM »
Hi -

These are now in stock, and available for shipment!

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71185&cat=51&ap=1

Have to give Kudos to our development and manufacturing staff...in fewer than 7 days, we went from initial agreement with Peter, through a re-design phase, Engineering and QC, to stock on the shelf....write-ups, pricing, and web treatment too! Even have orders headed for export (UK and Australia, so far).

We have never come close to being that fast before!

Cheers -

Rob


Awesome!  This is one of many reasons to love Lee Valley.  Perhaps it is a bit early to ask but, are there any plans to integrate the Parf Dogs into the MFT clamping set?
Thanks,
Steve

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Parf Dogs Now available for shipment...
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2013, 10:44 AM »
Hi -

These are now in stock, and available for shipment!

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=71185&cat=51&ap=1

Have to give Kudos to our development and manufacturing staff...in fewer than 7 days, we went from initial agreement with Peter, through a re-design phase, Engineering and QC, to stock on the shelf....write-ups, pricing, and web treatment too! Even have orders headed for export (UK and Australia, so far).

We have never come close to being that fast before!

Cheers -

Rob


That's amazing! What was the motivation to go for the record?

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 513
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2013, 12:37 PM »
I'm impressed - I placed my order just before going to bed. When I got up (at 7:00 am) I had already had a reply offering me postage options. Within another couple of hours it was all finalised. I rarely experience this level of efficiency in the UK when there is no time zone difference, let alone dealing with the complications of international postage.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1608
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2013, 12:46 PM »
I'm impressed - I placed my order just before going to bed. When I got up (at 7:00 am) I had already had a reply offering me postage options. Within another couple of hours it was all finalised. I rarely experience this level of efficiency in the UK when there is no time zone difference, let alone dealing with the complications of international postage.

Did you miss the bit about them being stocked by Axminster soon? Or could you just not wait?  [poke]
[NOTE: Tools from other manufacturers are of course available. As this is the Festool Owners Group, I tend to limit my advice to the tools that Festool sell, and assume that you've come to this site to get advice on Festool tools and because the level of skill and experience of the community here outstrips most you'll find elsewhere. If you *are* interested in tools from other manufacturers, please mention it in your post and also take the time to visit their user forums too.]

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Offline John_

  • Posts: 159
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2013, 12:56 PM »
I myself have been able to accurately duplicate many high tolerance needed templates over onto another board very successfully ,
It's all about getting  solid stable reference points , with a new MFT top & these parf dogs (or any pair of the other threaded dogs bolted from the top then the underside ) as long as there at least two reference points it can be drilled OR use of a good high tolerance trim cut router bit .
 I like the trim cut bits (1" deep ones) as the cut is precisely perpendicular to the top surface .  I myself have been very satisfied that I can repeat this all day long on production work , Yes I have to predrill a hole that allows the bit & bearing  to enter but the way it cuts the risk of a plunge bit not staying in reference is gone .
 this is where a non-plunge router is useful , I have one Porter Cable 890 router that is it's only function , the use of the trim cut-off bits at just over a $100.oo for the PC on sale it's a no brainer single use tool  , with 3  flute cut-off  bits  , I end up with a very  fine cut surface . I'm not saying this is the best way but I have been able to duplicate a template to where you can't tell which piece is the template when I'm done
 Everyone has their own processes that they are comfortable with  & If you feel you can't do as I do that's great go the CNC route .  It's a what works for you is the best method .

I agree and this is how I do it also.  I would like to add that I use a 5/8 ID x ¾ OD 'drill bushing' so that I do not damage the template (mcmaster carr 8492A327).  Also, not all 'top bearing flush trim bits' are the same.  I have found that most manufacturers slightly undersize the bit compared to the size of the bearing - so that the it will not cut into the template. This difference is enough so the actual hole size is too small to fit the dog.  A Freud 50-102 will work or you can call Whiteside and they will hand find one for you that matches (bit to bearing).  Even though I use my plunge router, I find it easier to just shut it off (foot switch) and not plunge it.

    

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 513
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2013, 02:03 PM »
Quote
Did you miss the bit about them being stocked by Axminster soon? Or could you just not wait?

I am keen to get them soon. I can imagine it would be a while before Axminster did get them and with the PM-V11 chisels they never seemed to get any stock and their prices were much higher than direct from Veritas. I can imagine there wouldn't be a great deal of difference in price anyway, even taking into account the postage (its costing me 35 dollars for the 5-6 days service).
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline joiner1970

  • Posts: 3199
Re:
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2013, 02:33 PM »
Peter can you let us all know when axi have them in stock ?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re:
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2013, 02:46 PM »
Peter can you let us all know when axi have them in stock ?
I can give them a call on Monday - I would contact Rob Lee but it is a Canadian holiday on Monday and Axminster ought to know approximately when they are due in.

As soon as I receive my set I will start a new video. I am preparing quite a bit in advance and so it should not take long to get it up on YouTube.

Peter

Offline Slappy

  • Posts: 567
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2013, 02:52 PM »
I myself have been able to accurately duplicate many high tolerance needed templates over onto another board very successfully ,
It's all about getting  solid stable reference points , with a new MFT top & these parf dogs (or any pair of the other threaded dogs bolted from the top then the underside ) as long as there at least two reference points it can be drilled OR use of a good high tolerance trim cut router bit .
 I like the trim cut bits (1" deep ones) as the cut is precisely perpendicular to the top surface .  I myself have been very satisfied that I can repeat this all day long on production work , Yes I have to predrill a hole that allows the bit & bearing  to enter but the way it cuts the risk of a plunge bit not staying in reference is gone .
 this is where a non-plunge router is useful , I have one Porter Cable 890 router that is it's only function , the use of the trim cut-off bits at just over a $100.oo for the PC on sale it's a no brainer single use tool  , with 3  flute cut-off  bits  , I end up with a very  fine cut surface . I'm not saying this is the best way but I have been able to duplicate a template to where you can't tell which piece is the template when I'm done
 Everyone has their own processes that they are comfortable with  & If you feel you can't do as I do that's great go the CNC route .  It's a what works for you is the best method .


I agree and this is how I do it also.  I would like to add that I use a 5/8 ID x ¾ OD 'drill bushing' so that I do not damage the template (mcmaster carr 8492A327).  Also, not all 'top bearing flush trim bits' are the same.  I have found that most manufacturers slightly undersize the bit compared to the size of the bearing - so that the it will not cut into the template. This difference is enough so the actual hole size is too small to fit the dog.  A Freud 50-102 will work or you can call Whiteside and they will hand find one for you that matches (bit to bearing).  Even though I use my plunge router, I find it easier to just shut it off (foot switch) and not plunge it.

    

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-85216MC-Diameter-Laminate-Bearing/dp/B000GYG2WA

I use a Bosch p/n 85216MC  3 flute carbide with a 1" cut   it's a bottom bearing model which allows the bearing to ride on the template these Bosch don't cut the template at all I've used this model for years with duplicating templates & get a perfectly matched cut to the copy material .
 yes it's slightly more work BUT it makes for a true cut that is parallel up / down & perpendicular to to the surface  , a exact copy to the templates . I keep 3 or 4 new ones of these at all times in my shop  .  They are not expensive .  
Mike

Offline joiner1970

  • Posts: 3199
Re:
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2013, 04:02 PM »
I used a similar technique, where you use 3 dogs on an mft to cut square , on Friday. I haven't got an mft but have a homemade version which is just a dewalt saw table with a new ply top I cut holes in. Instead of dogs I just used 3 clamps set up in the same way to form a right angle. Worked well to cut square ends on some 2x1 when I couldn't be asked to get my chop saw out.

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Parf Dogs Now available for shipment...
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2013, 09:12 AM »

Awesome!  This is one of many reasons to love Lee Valley.  Perhaps it is a bit early to ask but, are there any plans to integrate the Parf Dogs into the MFT clamping set?
Thanks,
Steve

Hi Steve,

It's been discussed, but nothing concrete just yet. We'll likely take a closer look at it once we've done a bit more development in this area (we're not done yet).

Cheers -

Rob

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Parf Dogs Now available for shipment...
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2013, 09:18 AM »

That's amazing! What was the motivation to go for the record?

Hi Michael -

It was just serendipity that we had the material on hand and the availabilty to free up some lathe capacity. While there were some minor changes to the design, the Parf dogs were a product that was understood by the market, and the was clear demand for it.

Sometimes - it's good for staff to see that they can handle a crash effort as well as they did. Good for morale, and confidence.

Cheers -

Rob
(the whip cracker....)

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1549
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2013, 10:07 AM »
Rob, your tool additions within the last 5 years, including the festool range, have made Lee Valley an amazing place to shop! You seem to be bringing in all the right stuff lately and whoever is responsible deserves to be recognized. Keep up the good work! And Happy Thanksgiving! I'm thankful for Lee Valley right now.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re:
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2013, 09:03 AM »
Peter can you let us all know when axi have them in stock ?

I spoke to Axminster this morning. The guy said that they are not sure of exact shipping dates but he seemed to think that it would all happen reasonably quickly. I have asked them to email me when they have something definite for the UK crowd.

Peter

Offline joiner1970

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Re:
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2013, 09:07 AM »
Cheers , do they have any UK prices yet ?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re:
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2013, 12:17 PM »
Cheers , do they have any UK prices yet ?

I did not ask but I suspect they are busy preparing all of that sort of thing - web site, entry catalogue number and so on.

I will post any information that I get as soon as it comes in.

Peter

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 513
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2013, 10:56 AM »
I received the 2 Parf dogs and two small dogs today. They were very nicely packed and are beautifully made (as one would expect from Lee Valley). I tried setting up a cut to see how square the guide rail was to the long edge of the workpiece and it was absolutely perfect! I checked the diameters and they were all 19.90mm. There was a bit of wobble in the dogs which I thought might be an issue with the Parf (ie taller) dogs particularly if thicker wood was being cut so I used the knobs on the clamping elements to tighten them down - this got rid of the wobble completely. I can't imagine there would be any significant error with these dogs as they are machined to such tight tolerances and therefore the pair responsible for alignment in each plane are perfectly matched (indeed all four are perfectly matched). I think the diameters are probably just right as they would be difficult to insert if they were any larger.

I don't recommend importing to the UK as it is too expensive. The dogs themselves are a bargain at 35 dollars (2 Parf, 2 normal) but reasonably quick postage to the UK (3 working days) is another 35 dollars (UPS) and duty and brokerage fees adds a massive £20.65 bringing the total cost in sterling to £65!

I have been in touch with Axminster to find out how much they will charge and they said £17.75 for a pair of Parf dogs and £13.20 for a pair of small dogs - both prices including VAT.  They have now placed their order and expect stock to be available within 6 weeks (this just based on past experience).

I think this represents a bargain.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline joiner1970

  • Posts: 3199
Re:
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2013, 11:04 AM »
Well done Cliff on getting the prices from axi :)

I've got a friend on a UK forum who's making me some similar dogs for free from stainless steel. So unless that doesn't work out I doubt I will be buying any now.

However those prices are pretty good I don't think axminster have been greedy.

Offline Festoolfootstool

  • Posts: 2076
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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2013, 11:33 AM »
thanks for the reveiw and axminster info I will have to get some.. [thumbs up]
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 513
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2013, 11:36 AM »
Quote
I will have to get some.. Thumbs Up

You will have to get some - they are 'the dogs' in more ways than one...
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2013, 12:03 PM »
I received the 2 Parf dogs and two small dogs today. They were very nicely packed and are beautifully made (as one would expect from Lee Valley). I tried setting up a cut to see how square the guide rail was to the long edge of the workpiece and it was absolutely perfect! I checked the diameters and they were all 19.90mm. There was a bit of wobble in the dogs which I thought might be an issue with the Parf (ie taller) dogs particularly if thicker wood was being cut so I used the knobs on the clamping elements to tighten them down - this got rid of the wobble completely. I can't imagine there would be any significant error with these dogs as they are machined to such tight tolerances and therefore the pair responsible for alignment in each plane are perfectly matched (indeed all four are perfectly matched). I think the diameters are probably just right as they would be difficult to insert if they were any larger.

I don't recommend importing to the UK as it is too expensive. The dogs themselves are a bargain at 35 dollars (2 Parf, 2 normal) but reasonably quick postage to the UK (3 working days) is another 35 dollars (UPS) and duty and brokerage fees adds a massive £20.65 bringing the total cost in sterling to £65!

I have been in touch with Axminster to find out how much they will charge and they said £17.75 for a pair of Parf dogs and £13.20 for a pair of small dogs - both prices including VAT.  They have now placed their order and expect stock to be available within 6 weeks (this just based on past experience).

I think this represents a bargain.

That is excellent information - I asked Axminster yesterday and they did not know prices - I suspect I was not talking to the right person. Lee Valley did well to get yours to you so soon. I am waiting for mine to arrive and I will then make the new video.

Peter

Offline cliffp

  • Posts: 513
Re: Parf Dogs
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2013, 12:11 PM »
Its a great product Peter and about time you got some return on your investment in the time to design and demo them.
T15+3 set, CXS set, Centrotec set (2011), TS55REBQ, TS75EQ, 1400 rail, 1900 rail, 1400 LR32 rail, LR32 set, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, Guide rail adapter, edging plate, angle arm, chip catcher, small bore base, MFS400, MFS1000 profiles, RO90DX, RO150, ETS150/3, Domino DF500, Domino assortment systainer, CTL Midi, compact cleaning set, CMS GE, TS75 Module, OF Module, VL and VB extensions, LA Stopper, Sliding table, Carvex 420 Li 18 GG, core maker set, EHL65EQ, Syslite.