Author Topic: TSO MTR-18  (Read 11613 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2017, 11:15 AM »
A video would also be helpful showing a variety of use cases. All the workpieces are small in photos shown. The triangle itself takes up so much room on the MFT, so how do you work with larger work pieces for example.

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2017, 12:08 PM »
a BIG Saturday morning THANK YOU to all of you.
What a fantastic, helpful and usable feedback - priceless!

we'll go to work with appropriate improvements and responses in the days ahead. - keep'em coming - that's how e keep getting better.
Loo for an itemized list of changes/improvements on this thread sometime into this coming week

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2017, 02:47 PM »
A couple of videos of the first time I used the MTR. I called it an MFT square, at the time the video was shot I had no clue what it would be called.

As with all my videos, what you see is what you get. No edits, no fixing my screw ups. I held off posting them until now due to the MTR not being released. Hans has not seen these. I have a few more I will post latter.





Tom

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2127
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2017, 03:04 PM »
Thanks for the videos, Tom!  Nice walk-through.

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2017, 12:14 PM »
There seems to be only a 50$ shipping option?

There was a glitch in our site that presented FedEx Overnight as the only shipping option for some visitors. I fixed that yesterday morning, and apologize for any confusion.

During the launch period, all of our Triangle products will ship for free anywhere in the world.

Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2017, 01:30 PM »
My impressions (apologies for redundancies) this product page is the first source of confusion.

On the left is the "Master accessory kit". Poor name. Master of what? What can it be used for other than adding the most heavily promoted feature to only one of the two triangles? Very high price for what looks like not much stuff. Add info on dimensions, other machining specifications and weight to justify price. Knobs should be include in that price IMO.

The middle product has the most confusing name/price description. It's just a simple triangle at the posted price. Only suits name if you also buy the "Master accessory kit". Therefore, it should be sold with the parts needed to live up to it's title. IMO the whole kit with everything needed to provide "...Infinite Angle Setting" should cost no more than $300.

On the right is another simple triangle. What can it do that the other one can't? As someone mentioned, it would be better if the features of both triangles could be combined into one product. If it isn't much superior to the other triangle in some use why bother? I'd rather pay the extra $30 for the one that can be upgraded later.

I think it would be interesting to read some description of the machining process and material consumption etc. How much did that big chunk of aluminum weigh before you removed the bits that just add dead weight?

Another bit of personal opinion, round up to the nearest dollar. $200 rather than $199.99.

To sum up I'd change that Triangle product page to put the fully equipped "TSO MTR-18 with Infinite Angle Setting" @ $300 on the left, followed by the base "TSO MTR-18" @ $230 in the center, and the optional "Adjustable arm" @ $80. If it's justified, add a fourth position to the far right for the other triangle.

Offline DrD

  • Posts: 395
  • I might not be fast BUT I sure am slow
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2017, 02:15 PM »
Agree with @Michael Kellough, product page is too confusing, not easy to follow nor understand.  Product is priced like it was a Woodpecker OTT, yet we  know nothing about how it was calibrated, about how it was machined/milled/stamped, etc  I would need to know a lot more before considering purchase.
Dr.D

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 126
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2017, 05:10 PM »
@TSO Products

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2017, 05:38 PM »
@TSO Products

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

Not TSO but I know it does not attach to the guide rail---currently.

It can be used off the MFT, I used a prototype to lay out stair strings and roof rafters. In the US you have to convert pics to degrees to make it work for rafters, an easy thing to do.

I looked at the other videos I have from testing the MTR, they were videos to Hans for R&D purposes. I'll leave it up to Hans if he wants them posted.

In a couple of weeks I'll be doing another set of stringers, I'll video the process to post. I did not video the previous sets of stringers or rafters. Sometimes getting work done has to come first.

Tom

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 390
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2017, 08:38 PM »
I think that an obvious step would be to discount the Variable angle "set" so that buying the triangle and the adjusting bits together is cheaper than buying the two items separately. Festool often uses this approach.

I doubt that using acrylic would be only 30% the cost of aluminum. Part of the cost is paying down the investment in the R&D. The material used has no influence on that cost. When actually taking the tool to the work etc, I can see that acrylic might have durability issues.

The video on the large octagon did not teach me anything about the accuracy/precision of the system. I knew that the tool would be very good and that is all the video showed. I would like to know if the tool is extremely good and worth the high price. Because the fitting was done on an uneven surface and parts could not be carefully aligned, I could not determine how good the fit actually was.
Perhaps a follow-up will show how the pieces fit together on a good surface.

At least I was not the only one who thought the initial website presentation was not optimal.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2017, 09:03 PM »
I think that an obvious step would be to discount the Variable angle "set" so that buying the triangle and the adjusting bits together is cheaper than buying the two items separately. Festool often uses this approach.

I doubt that using acrylic would be only 30% the cost of aluminum. Part of the cost is paying down the investment in the R&D. The material used has no influence on that cost. When actually taking the tool to the work etc, I can see that acrylic might have durability issues.

The video on the large octagon did not teach me anything about the accuracy/precision of the system. I knew that the tool would be very good and that is all the video showed. I would like to know if the tool is extremely good and worth the high price. Because the fitting was done on an uneven surface and parts could not be carefully aligned, I could not determine how good the fit actually was.
Perhaps a follow-up will show how the pieces fit together on a good surface.

At least I was not the only one who thought the initial website presentation was not optimal.

Sorry, that octagon is long gone.

I had enough confidence in the prototype that I laid out this counter top.

Tom

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18 Triangle
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32 PM »
OK, fellows, you got our attention.
while we are working the bugs out of the website presentation we can tell you about a decision that became clear by Saturday morning: we will have a new SKU, # 61-333, on our website which includes the basic MTR-18 Triangle along with all the items listed in the "Master Accessory Kit" for a combined sales price of $ 299.95 - along with FREE global shipping during the introductory phase.

We noted some 23 distinct comments on this FOG thread spread over 40 posts which we have cataloged for responses -
We will figure out how to best respond to everyone of those observations and report back.

We are shipping orders from stock according to the sequence we received them.They ship in two separate packages for protection in transit.

-more in the days ahead
     thanks
     Hans and Eric

ps: THIS THREAD MAY BE MOVED TO THE DEALER SECTION OF THIS FORUM
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline John Stevens

  • Posts: 792
  • Ardmore, PA
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2017, 10:12 PM »
Reading the TSO Insider email last month announcing new products, I assumed they were new GRS units with additional functions, or accessories for the GRS units.  Adjustable stops along 600mm scales, something like that.  Wishing TSO success with this products, but no demand for it/them from this consumer.  Sorry not be cheering for the new products, but I hope this is useful info anyway.

--John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 299
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2017, 11:13 PM »
Hans,

I don't see the option at the website to purchase the complete system 61-333 for $299.95. Will that be added this week or can we order both the triangle and the accessories at the listed price and you all adjust the price (refund the difference) when you process the order?

Thanks
Jack

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2017, 11:30 PM »
Reading the TSO Insider email last month announcing new products, I assumed they were new GRS units with additional functions, or accessories for the GRS units.  Adjustable stops along 600mm scales, something like that.  Wishing TSO success with this products, but no demand for it/them from this consumer.  Sorry not be cheering for the new products, but I hope this is useful info anyway.

--John
@JohnStevens - we are so appreciative of the customer interest for our next new product - like the GRS-16 Accessory for setting Paraallel Guide distance AND squaring of the guide rail in one pass. with the launch of the new Triangles off to a very good (order) start, we can now move forward with the GRS-16 accessory - aiming to ship in the fourth quarter.
Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2017, 11:36 PM »
Hans,

I don't see the option at the website to purchase the complete system 61-333 for $299.95. Will that be added this week or can we order both the triangle and the accessories at the listed price and you all adjust the price (refund the difference) when you process the order?

Thanks
Jack
@Claimdude - any orders placed for the MTR-18 AND Accessory Kit will automatically be refunded the difference until the new SKU and $ 299.95 price are up and running. We did the same automatic refunds thing with the shipping cost errors our system  spit out ( I think Eric will spit the Shipping software out shortly, too, if it keeps making mistakes!)

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2017, 11:54 PM »
I wish Festool would learn a thing or two from TSO how to engage with users. I have no interest in this particular product, but the way they listen, adapt, admit shortcomings, and improve in near real time and seems like 24/7 is admirable. Bravo, TSO.

Online TSO Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 469
    • TSO Products
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2017, 12:01 AM »
I wish Festool would learn a thing or two from TSO how to engage with users. I have no interest in this particular product, but the way they listen, adapt, admit shortcomings, and improve in near real time and seems like 24/7 is admirable. Bravo, TSO.
@Svar - comments like yours keeps us motivated! - thank you for your kind words
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline woodvkk

  • Posts: 84
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2017, 07:13 AM »
What about storage? Does this fit in the TS-55 Systainer?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2017, 08:24 AM »
What about storage? Does this fit in the TS-55 Systainer?

No.

Tom

Offline John Stevens

  • Posts: 792
  • Ardmore, PA
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2017, 08:38 PM »
we are so appreciative of the customer interest for our next new product - like the GRS-16 Accessory for setting Paraallel Guide distance AND squaring of the guide rail in one pass.

Thanks Hans & Eric.  I've owned an MFT and ATF55 for about a dozen years, and I've come to strongly prefer not attaching the guide rail to the table for almost all track-sawing tasks.  Good luck with the new triangles, glad to hear sales are off to a good start.  I figure anything to the success of an innovative company like TSO Products will tend to benefit me over the long run.

--John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 10:54 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

So having read all of the posts and looked at the website I still have no definite idea as to what the bits cost.

Could we get a definite answer from @TSO Products as to what you get for how much $$?

I have the rather large and expensive woodpecker square and it has a nifty hanger from the MFT, it would be cool to have something like that.  I am wondering how I am going to have both because I want this one too :P

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 10:59 PM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

I've been more than once ticked that I missed a one time tool.  I find myself buying them now even if I am on the fence because I know I can always sell them for what I paid later if it doesn't really work out.    Sadly I end up always wanting to keep them, the MFT square they did which was I think around 300 dollars all in shipped is a beautiful flawless and heavy tool, I could not be more impressed with it.  This thing though has more features, the idea it has pivots and you can fasten it and such makes me want it too.

I am with you, I want something to replace the dumb festool adjustable angle guide for the track though.  Here's hoping something good comes along.

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 11:07 PM »
Hmm can't quite figure out what to order, I guess the 229.95  Square and then the 99.95 master accessory kit?  What about the knobs that are coming soon? Can I buy them elsewhere or do I need to wait until they are released?

Thanks, I saw some of it in the thread but want to confirm before pulling the trigger.




Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 11:29 PM »
Hmm can't quite figure out what to order, I guess the 229.95  Square and then the 99.95 master accessory kit?  What about the knobs that are coming soon? Can I buy them elsewhere or do I need to wait until they are released?

Thanks, I saw some of it in the thread but want to confirm before pulling the trigger.

There is the option of the square and master set at a discounted price. From what I understand if you order the 2 items it gets ported to the discounted price.

The knobs for the Clamping Elements work with the TSO dogs.

Tom

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 11:35 PM »
Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

Thanks again!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 12:42 AM »
Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

Thanks again!

That is my video---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. The track does not attach to any dogs, the rail is on the MFT rail brackets.

Tom

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 126
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 04:09 AM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

I've been more than once ticked that I missed a one time tool.  I find myself buying them now even if I am on the fence because I know I can always sell them for what I paid later if it doesn't really work out.    Sadly I end up always wanting to keep them, the MFT square they did which was I think around 300 dollars all in shipped is a beautiful flawless and heavy tool, I could not be more impressed with it.  This thing though has more features, the idea it has pivots and you can fasten it and such makes me want it too.

I am with you, I want something to replace the dumb festool adjustable angle guide for the track though.  Here's hoping something good comes along.


Yeay i need an angle attachment to be connected to the guide rail not my mft .


We will keep waiting

Cheers

Bryan

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 244
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 10:52 AM »
 I am reviewing a plan for a two tier round glass top plant stand, It calls for three interlocking legs. The plans call for a 4° end cut on each arm with each arm  fitting into a 1/2 inch notch cut at a 4° angle. The entire project is shown being done on a table saw with the miter gauge set at 4°. The set up on a table saw requires a dado blade set. It occurs to me that if three arms are put side by side the notches can be plowed out with a router, fence rail and the TSO MTR 18 setting the path at 4°. The end cuts at 4° are a quick fix.

The TSO MTR 18 seems made for this project. I am sorry I can't find a photo to post.

At first I was hard pressed to come up with a project that would require the new offering.

Two questions:

1. Is a 4° angle easily set?

2. As my grandmother would exclaim... "What's the good of it? Where and for what purpose exactly would you use the TSO- MTR-18? 45° trim cuts? Picture framing? Shims?  Stair building? Rafter cutting? One recent poster noted the slope on a vegetable planter was 52°. That would be an easy cut for this tool.

You could spend the  money to make this:






Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 11:00 AM »
Quote
    Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

    Thanks again!


That is my video---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. The track does not attach to any dogs, the rail is on the MFT rail brackets.

Tom
It was in the photo, maybe I was mistaken, see the highlighted parts, the orange thing that seems like it attaches the dogs to the rail.



http://imgur.com/a/yzU0h