Author Topic: TSO MTR-18  (Read 10438 times)

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Offline tjbnwi

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TSO MTR-18
« on: April 28, 2017, 08:37 PM »
Hans has this up on the TSO site. I was fortunate enough to be chosen to beta the unit. Works very well, has a lot of uses.

Over the next couple of weeks I'll put together my thoughts on the unit and what uses I found for it.

https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/mtr-18-precision-system-triangle-with-infinite-angle-setting/

Tom

Online Atonwa

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 09:12 PM »
I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline Svar

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 09:28 PM »
I assume it does not attach to the rail and is for MFT use.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:34 PM by Svar »

Offline Z48LT1

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 09:54 PM »
Seems legit.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 09:57 PM »
I assume it does not attach to the rail and is for MFT use.

Does not attach to the rail;.

Can be used on the MFT and as a stand alone square.

Tom

Offline bkharman

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 10:01 PM »
I also did some beta work with one and it is very nice!  I will be taking pics and some other docs soon enough, but I used it to make some picture frames as well as cut some odd angle casing.

To be completely honest, I also jerry rigged it a bit to use on my CMS for some cuts. Outstanding on all counts!

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 52
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 10:08 PM »
Is this a one time tool? Do I have only 30 days to order?  [big grin]
Ill be ordering the standard version.
Thanks Hans.

Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 11:15 PM »
I also had a chance to work with an early version.  While I have a large Woodpecker square, I like the balance of this better, and if you bump it, it never drops off the edge of the bench!

It's an excellent addition to the shop!  Accurate, substantial in heft, and offers a lot of flexibility.

Hans and Eric have a winner with this one!

The photo shows one of my favorite features - the ability quickly clamp it with spring clamps.  I could never get them over the large end of the Woodpecker square to easily hold them in place.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:51 AM by neilc »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 11:20 PM »
I just received an email about the MTR. When I first posted this there was no "Add to Cart" button on their website, there is one now.

Tom

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 11:27 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 11:35 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

I don't think the accessory kit comes with the MRT, below is copied and pasted from the website;

What’s in the Box
MTR-18 Precision Triangle Body
MTR-18 Removable Foot
M4 Socket Head Cap Screws (6)
M6 Edge Index Pins (2)
M3 Allen Wrench

Tom

Offline jimbo51

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 12:05 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.

Online DoubleL

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 12:09 AM »
In the description it states: "but adds the ability to be set to any angle with the optional indexing pointer and brass locking pin.

The "optional" I'm pretty sure means it doesn't come with it, you need to buy it in addition.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 12:14 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.

Hans will most probably address some of these issues. Two things I know for certain about Hans----he listens and learns.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 12:33 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.
your comment is very helpful to us as we try to provide the best choices and accompanying information.

Here's the thought behind out approach: not everyone has an immediate need for an angle setting triangle but may need just a triangle WITH THE OPTION to upgrade later when an acute angle related need arises - or when the additional funds are available. The way we present it is to give the customer choices. For that reason we also offer the choice of just a Precision Triangle - less money and few options. Otherwise our offer would amount to; All or nothing - take it or leave it". And that's not how we would want to be treated ourselves.

What would be a more helpful way of presenting this tool set?

Hans
TSOproducts.com
Transport Store Optimize
Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 12:38 AM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.
TSOproducts.com
Transport Store Optimize
Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares - and the MTR-18 Triangle

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 04:25 AM »
There seems to be only a 50$ shipping option?

Offline grobkuschelig

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 04:33 AM »

What would be a more helpful way of presenting this tool set?

Hans

Hi Hans,

I think what makes it confusing is that:
1) The product is named: "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting", which suggests it comes "with" Angle Setting Accessory.
2) Almost all your product pictures/animations show the product with accessories.

Just a look at your product page suggests that the added cost is due to the accessories, from plainly looking at the pictures. See attached...

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you should have incorporated both triangles into one.
Why did you not incorporate the holes at 5" and 13" plus the one at 5"/45° into the angle square!?
This just seems like the perfect product incorporating all the use cases making your lineup a lot cleaner and easier to understand.
One triangle + optional angle accessory.  [poke]

Maybe you can share some details about your design decisions, I'd like that.

Btw: I have your GRS-16 and absolutely love it. [not worthy]
Also, please keep on inventing and improving. I think you guys at TSO are a HUGE positive impact to us all! Thank you for that!  [thumbs up]

Edit: changed file type of attachment from pdf to jpg for inline viewing.

Online Atonwa

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 08:16 AM »
Just a quick question Hans. In another thread you mentioned that the included threaded holes on the GRS would have a new device available for it. Is this still in the plans or does this new triangle replace that original idea?

I'd hate to pony up for this triangle and then have the adapter kit for the GRS come out in the next few weeks that would duplicate it. My guess is they may have something to do with the doubledogs now?

A question to the Beta testers too. How do you end up storing this thing and it's accessories? 25" triangle is pretty large precise object and I wouldn't want to drop it or ding the edge. I was thinking a woodpecker style MDF holder and wall mount may be the best option but like to hear what you all are doing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:23 AM by Atonwa »

Online Peter Halle

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 08:21 AM »
For me this is one of the most personally satisfying threads.  I remember speaking with Hans after the start of the GRS-16 and hearing that he wanted to do a triangle.  We talked extensively and I urged him to do something different and slay the category.  I agreed to a non-disclosure agreement and every now and then we talked.

I saw the very first mock up triangle in a hotel parking lot last year at JLC Live and invited Hans to come to dinner with a bunch of Foggers and show off his creation.  That dinner was something to remember where many of those here who post often were freely giving ideas and thoughts.

I am glad that Hans waited until all the legal work was done prior to unveiling this and that once again TSO Products has proven itself as a company that welcomes input and really does involve those who use the tools as part of their development process. 

Thank you to all those who helped bring this to market.

PS:  The only affiliation I have with TSO Products is that we talk and then they do their own thing.  I have no financial interest in the company.

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 298
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 08:31 AM »
Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

@Hans--with the confusion-----on the main product page after "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" add the line-----(shown with optional accessories)

Tom



Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 09:06 AM »

A question to the Beta testers too. How do you end up storing this thing and it's accessories? 25" triangle is pretty large precise object and I wouldn't want to drop it or ding the edge. I was thinking a woodpecker style MDF holder and wall mount may be the best option but like to hear what you all are doing.

I have a space under my traditional workbench and store it flat.  You could also hang it on the wall.  The accessories I store in a box with MFT dogs and other clamps.

I have debated making a hanger from scrap wood on the side of the MFT table that slides in the T-slots to makes it accessible but securely stored.

I personally never liked the MDF holding panels from Woodpecker.

Offline Bohdan

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2017, 09:15 AM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

So having read all of the posts and looked at the website I still have no definite idea as to what the bits cost.

Could we get a definite answer from @TSO Products as to what you get for how much $$?

Offline Dane

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I concur.  I've read all the post and looked at the website numerous times and still have no idea what comes with the 229.00 option.  There appear to be 2 different squares- is the 229.00 just a more expensive bare square?  And then to get the angle thing and dogs you have to pay another 99.00?  So, 329.00 to get all the functions shown in the videos?

Online Cheese

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2017, 09:33 AM »
Well FWIW...I can see why some people are confused as to what's included in the package.

Under the main heading:MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting $229.95, there are 8 different photos that highlight the product but only 1 of those photos is of the actual product you receive for $229.95. The other 7 photos all show the Precision System Triangle along with Optional Master Accessories Kit which costs an additional $99.95. Therein lies the confusion.

The addition of the PTR-18 on the bottom of the page also adds to the confusion. It's simply a triangle with a removable foot...exactly what a naked MTR-18 is.  Thus a person could surmise that the $30 difference in price between the two triangles must be the additional parts that are shown at the top of the page in those 7 photographs.

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Someone may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:42 PM by Cheese »

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 475
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2017, 10:11 AM »
I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 10:12 AM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 10:25 AM »
I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

The MTR does work well as a variable angle guide rail unit. It is not as convenient as the GRS but it can be set (using the accessory kit) to the desired angle, clamped to the work piece, the rail is then butted against it.

Tom


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 10:33 AM »
As I stated in my first post I beta'd this square. As with everything I have tested once released I return all of the prototypes and purchase the item if I feel it warrants my money. Once I receive the production unit, I'll reevaluate it and offer my thoughts on the release.

With the prototypes there were some issues, dogs that did not fit/work well, no degree scale on the hypotenuse, foot that was not quite right.

Picture of the very first one I received.

Tom