Author Topic: TSO MTR-18  (Read 11618 times)

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Offline tjbnwi

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TSO MTR-18
« on: April 28, 2017, 08:37 PM »
Hans has this up on the TSO site. I was fortunate enough to be chosen to beta the unit. Works very well, has a lot of uses.

Over the next couple of weeks I'll put together my thoughts on the unit and what uses I found for it.

https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/mtr-18-precision-system-triangle-with-infinite-angle-setting/

Tom

Offline Atonwa

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2017, 09:12 PM »
I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline Svar

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2017, 09:28 PM »
I assume it does not attach to the rail and is for MFT use.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:34 PM by Svar »

Offline Z48LT1

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2017, 09:54 PM »
Seems legit.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2017, 09:57 PM »
I assume it does not attach to the rail and is for MFT use.

Does not attach to the rail;.

Can be used on the MFT and as a stand alone square.

Tom

Offline bkharman

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2017, 10:01 PM »
I also did some beta work with one and it is very nice!  I will be taking pics and some other docs soon enough, but I used it to make some picture frames as well as cut some odd angle casing.

To be completely honest, I also jerry rigged it a bit to use on my CMS for some cuts. Outstanding on all counts!

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Getmaverick

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 10:08 PM »
Is this a one time tool? Do I have only 30 days to order?  [big grin]
Ill be ordering the standard version.
Thanks Hans.

Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 11:15 PM »
I also had a chance to work with an early version.  While I have a large Woodpecker square, I like the balance of this better, and if you bump it, it never drops off the edge of the bench!

It's an excellent addition to the shop!  Accurate, substantial in heft, and offers a lot of flexibility.

Hans and Eric have a winner with this one!

The photo shows one of my favorite features - the ability quickly clamp it with spring clamps.  I could never get them over the large end of the Woodpecker square to easily hold them in place.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:51 AM by neilc »

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 11:20 PM »
I just received an email about the MTR. When I first posted this there was no "Add to Cart" button on their website, there is one now.

Tom

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 11:27 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 11:35 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

I don't think the accessory kit comes with the MRT, below is copied and pasted from the website;

What’s in the Box
MTR-18 Precision Triangle Body
MTR-18 Removable Foot
M4 Socket Head Cap Screws (6)
M6 Edge Index Pins (2)
M3 Allen Wrench

Tom

Offline jimbo51

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 12:05 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.

Offline DoubleL

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2017, 12:09 AM »
In the description it states: "but adds the ability to be set to any angle with the optional indexing pointer and brass locking pin.

The "optional" I'm pretty sure means it doesn't come with it, you need to buy it in addition.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 12:14 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.

Hans will most probably address some of these issues. Two things I know for certain about Hans----he listens and learns.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 12:33 AM »
I think that the description of this tool is confusing and misleading. Perhaps they believe that the full price would be too much of a shock and decided to divide it so the total is not immediately apparent. Without the accessory kit, it is just a nice triangle. The accessory kit is what makes it an angle tool.

I might end up buying one, but I am unimpressed by this initial rollout.
your comment is very helpful to us as we try to provide the best choices and accompanying information.

Here's the thought behind out approach: not everyone has an immediate need for an angle setting triangle but may need just a triangle WITH THE OPTION to upgrade later when an acute angle related need arises - or when the additional funds are available. The way we present it is to give the customer choices. For that reason we also offer the choice of just a Precision Triangle - less money and few options. Otherwise our offer would amount to; All or nothing - take it or leave it". And that's not how we would want to be treated ourselves.

What would be a more helpful way of presenting this tool set?

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2017, 12:38 AM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2017, 04:25 AM »
There seems to be only a 50$ shipping option?

Offline grobkuschelig

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2017, 04:33 AM »

What would be a more helpful way of presenting this tool set?

Hans

Hi Hans,

I think what makes it confusing is that:
1) The product is named: "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting", which suggests it comes "with" Angle Setting Accessory.
2) Almost all your product pictures/animations show the product with accessories.

Just a look at your product page suggests that the added cost is due to the accessories, from plainly looking at the pictures. See attached...

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you should have incorporated both triangles into one.
Why did you not incorporate the holes at 5" and 13" plus the one at 5"/45° into the angle square!?
This just seems like the perfect product incorporating all the use cases making your lineup a lot cleaner and easier to understand.
One triangle + optional angle accessory.  [poke]

Maybe you can share some details about your design decisions, I'd like that.

Btw: I have your GRS-16 and absolutely love it. [not worthy]
Also, please keep on inventing and improving. I think you guys at TSO are a HUGE positive impact to us all! Thank you for that!  [thumbs up]

Edit: changed file type of attachment from pdf to jpg for inline viewing.

Offline Atonwa

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 08:16 AM »
Just a quick question Hans. In another thread you mentioned that the included threaded holes on the GRS would have a new device available for it. Is this still in the plans or does this new triangle replace that original idea?

I'd hate to pony up for this triangle and then have the adapter kit for the GRS come out in the next few weeks that would duplicate it. My guess is they may have something to do with the doubledogs now?

A question to the Beta testers too. How do you end up storing this thing and it's accessories? 25" triangle is pretty large precise object and I wouldn't want to drop it or ding the edge. I was thinking a woodpecker style MDF holder and wall mount may be the best option but like to hear what you all are doing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:23 AM by Atonwa »

Online Peter Halle

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2017, 08:21 AM »
For me this is one of the most personally satisfying threads.  I remember speaking with Hans after the start of the GRS-16 and hearing that he wanted to do a triangle.  We talked extensively and I urged him to do something different and slay the category.  I agreed to a non-disclosure agreement and every now and then we talked.

I saw the very first mock up triangle in a hotel parking lot last year at JLC Live and invited Hans to come to dinner with a bunch of Foggers and show off his creation.  That dinner was something to remember where many of those here who post often were freely giving ideas and thoughts.

I am glad that Hans waited until all the legal work was done prior to unveiling this and that once again TSO Products has proven itself as a company that welcomes input and really does involve those who use the tools as part of their development process. 

Thank you to all those who helped bring this to market.

PS:  The only affiliation I have with TSO Products is that we talk and then they do their own thing.  I have no financial interest in the company.

Peter

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2017, 08:31 AM »
Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2017, 08:46 AM »
Hans,

It might be that the confusion derives from the breakdown at the bottom of the page under "Related Products". One could take that to mean you are just getting the triangle and the lip piece for $229. I was not confused though as the main part of the add states "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" clearly states the features of the unit pictured to the left which includes all components in this system. Now, if I am wrong and the triangle with lip is all you get for the $229 that would be false advertising since one can easily conclude all components are included at $229. The only clarification I can think of would be to add description at the bottom of the page making it clear that the MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting can be purchased as two separate components.

Jack

It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

@Hans--with the confusion-----on the main product page after "MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting" add the line-----(shown with optional accessories)

Tom



Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2017, 09:06 AM »

A question to the Beta testers too. How do you end up storing this thing and it's accessories? 25" triangle is pretty large precise object and I wouldn't want to drop it or ding the edge. I was thinking a woodpecker style MDF holder and wall mount may be the best option but like to hear what you all are doing.

I have a space under my traditional workbench and store it flat.  You could also hang it on the wall.  The accessories I store in a box with MFT dogs and other clamps.

I have debated making a hanger from scrap wood on the side of the MFT table that slides in the T-slots to makes it accessible but securely stored.

I personally never liked the MDF holding panels from Woodpecker.

Offline Bohdan

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2017, 09:15 AM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

So having read all of the posts and looked at the website I still have no definite idea as to what the bits cost.

Could we get a definite answer from @TSO Products as to what you get for how much $$?

Offline Dane

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I concur.  I've read all the post and looked at the website numerous times and still have no idea what comes with the 229.00 option.  There appear to be 2 different squares- is the 229.00 just a more expensive bare square?  And then to get the angle thing and dogs you have to pay another 99.00?  So, 329.00 to get all the functions shown in the videos?

Online Cheese

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2017, 09:33 AM »
Well FWIW...I can see why some people are confused as to what's included in the package.

Under the main heading:MTR-18 Precision System Triangle with Infinite Angle Setting $229.95, there are 8 different photos that highlight the product but only 1 of those photos is of the actual product you receive for $229.95. The other 7 photos all show the Precision System Triangle along with Optional Master Accessories Kit which costs an additional $99.95. Therein lies the confusion.

The addition of the PTR-18 on the bottom of the page also adds to the confusion. It's simply a triangle with a removable foot...exactly what a naked MTR-18 is.  Thus a person could surmise that the $30 difference in price between the two triangles must be the additional parts that are shown at the top of the page in those 7 photographs.

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Someone may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 12:42 PM by Cheese »

Online HarveyWildes

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2017, 10:11 AM »
I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 10:12 AM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 10:25 AM »
I've been watching for this TSO announcement for a few weeks, and I'm somewhat disappointed by the concept of the tool.  I was hoping for something that would replace the Festool angle unit in the guide rail accessory kit.  In other words, something like the other TSO guide rail squares, but with variable angles.  I've been holding off on a TS 55, but just ended up buying it yesterday.  I was hoping to get the TSO variable angle guide rail square, so I am pretty sad that it doesn't exist.  It's even more disappointing since the Festool angle unit doesn't have a great reputation for holding an angle.  Any other variations on the Festool angle unit that I should consider?

That said, now I'll have to compare the TSO triangle to the Woodpecker large triangle and framing squares and the Anderson phenolic plywood square.  One of them will win out (or maybe two, if I get the Anderson square to start with on price).  A big disadvantage of the Woodpecker tools is that you have to wait for the next time they make a run of the tool.  Seriously, once they've made several runs of a one-time (I don't that word means what they think it means) tool, you'd think they'd figure out that keeping it in stock would not be a bad idea.  Any other variations on the precision triangle/framing square that I should consider?

The MTR does work well as a variable angle guide rail unit. It is not as convenient as the GRS but it can be set (using the accessory kit) to the desired angle, clamped to the work piece, the rail is then butted against it.

Tom


Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 10:33 AM »
As I stated in my first post I beta'd this square. As with everything I have tested once released I return all of the prototypes and purchase the item if I feel it warrants my money. Once I receive the production unit, I'll reevaluate it and offer my thoughts on the release.

With the prototypes there were some issues, dogs that did not fit/work well, no degree scale on the hypotenuse, foot that was not quite right.

Picture of the very first one I received.

Tom

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2017, 11:15 AM »
A video would also be helpful showing a variety of use cases. All the workpieces are small in photos shown. The triangle itself takes up so much room on the MFT, so how do you work with larger work pieces for example.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2017, 12:08 PM »
a BIG Saturday morning THANK YOU to all of you.
What a fantastic, helpful and usable feedback - priceless!

we'll go to work with appropriate improvements and responses in the days ahead. - keep'em coming - that's how e keep getting better.
Loo for an itemized list of changes/improvements on this thread sometime into this coming week

Hans and Eric
info@tsoproducts.com
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2017, 02:47 PM »
A couple of videos of the first time I used the MTR. I called it an MFT square, at the time the video was shot I had no clue what it would be called.

As with all my videos, what you see is what you get. No edits, no fixing my screw ups. I held off posting them until now due to the MTR not being released. Hans has not seen these. I have a few more I will post latter.





Tom

Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2017, 03:04 PM »
Thanks for the videos, Tom!  Nice walk-through.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2017, 12:14 PM »
There seems to be only a 50$ shipping option?

There was a glitch in our site that presented FedEx Overnight as the only shipping option for some visitors. I fixed that yesterday morning, and apologize for any confusion.

During the launch period, all of our Triangle products will ship for free anywhere in the world.

Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2017, 01:30 PM »
My impressions (apologies for redundancies) this product page is the first source of confusion.

On the left is the "Master accessory kit". Poor name. Master of what? What can it be used for other than adding the most heavily promoted feature to only one of the two triangles? Very high price for what looks like not much stuff. Add info on dimensions, other machining specifications and weight to justify price. Knobs should be include in that price IMO.

The middle product has the most confusing name/price description. It's just a simple triangle at the posted price. Only suits name if you also buy the "Master accessory kit". Therefore, it should be sold with the parts needed to live up to it's title. IMO the whole kit with everything needed to provide "...Infinite Angle Setting" should cost no more than $300.

On the right is another simple triangle. What can it do that the other one can't? As someone mentioned, it would be better if the features of both triangles could be combined into one product. If it isn't much superior to the other triangle in some use why bother? I'd rather pay the extra $30 for the one that can be upgraded later.

I think it would be interesting to read some description of the machining process and material consumption etc. How much did that big chunk of aluminum weigh before you removed the bits that just add dead weight?

Another bit of personal opinion, round up to the nearest dollar. $200 rather than $199.99.

To sum up I'd change that Triangle product page to put the fully equipped "TSO MTR-18 with Infinite Angle Setting" @ $300 on the left, followed by the base "TSO MTR-18" @ $230 in the center, and the optional "Adjustable arm" @ $80. If it's justified, add a fourth position to the far right for the other triangle.

Offline DrD

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2017, 02:15 PM »
Agree with @Michael Kellough, product page is too confusing, not easy to follow nor understand.  Product is priced like it was a Woodpecker OTT, yet we  know nothing about how it was calibrated, about how it was machined/milled/stamped, etc  I would need to know a lot more before considering purchase.
Dr.D

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 126
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2017, 05:10 PM »
@TSO Products

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2017, 05:38 PM »
@TSO Products

Can this new angle device attach to a guide rail.
Or only be used in conjunction with mft as shown in the video?

Cheers

Bryan

Not TSO but I know it does not attach to the guide rail---currently.

It can be used off the MFT, I used a prototype to lay out stair strings and roof rafters. In the US you have to convert pics to degrees to make it work for rafters, an easy thing to do.

I looked at the other videos I have from testing the MTR, they were videos to Hans for R&D purposes. I'll leave it up to Hans if he wants them posted.

In a couple of weeks I'll be doing another set of stringers, I'll video the process to post. I did not video the previous sets of stringers or rafters. Sometimes getting work done has to come first.

Tom

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 390
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2017, 08:38 PM »
I think that an obvious step would be to discount the Variable angle "set" so that buying the triangle and the adjusting bits together is cheaper than buying the two items separately. Festool often uses this approach.

I doubt that using acrylic would be only 30% the cost of aluminum. Part of the cost is paying down the investment in the R&D. The material used has no influence on that cost. When actually taking the tool to the work etc, I can see that acrylic might have durability issues.

The video on the large octagon did not teach me anything about the accuracy/precision of the system. I knew that the tool would be very good and that is all the video showed. I would like to know if the tool is extremely good and worth the high price. Because the fitting was done on an uneven surface and parts could not be carefully aligned, I could not determine how good the fit actually was.
Perhaps a follow-up will show how the pieces fit together on a good surface.

At least I was not the only one who thought the initial website presentation was not optimal.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2017, 09:03 PM »
I think that an obvious step would be to discount the Variable angle "set" so that buying the triangle and the adjusting bits together is cheaper than buying the two items separately. Festool often uses this approach.

I doubt that using acrylic would be only 30% the cost of aluminum. Part of the cost is paying down the investment in the R&D. The material used has no influence on that cost. When actually taking the tool to the work etc, I can see that acrylic might have durability issues.

The video on the large octagon did not teach me anything about the accuracy/precision of the system. I knew that the tool would be very good and that is all the video showed. I would like to know if the tool is extremely good and worth the high price. Because the fitting was done on an uneven surface and parts could not be carefully aligned, I could not determine how good the fit actually was.
Perhaps a follow-up will show how the pieces fit together on a good surface.

At least I was not the only one who thought the initial website presentation was not optimal.

Sorry, that octagon is long gone.

I had enough confidence in the prototype that I laid out this counter top.

Tom

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18 Triangle
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32 PM »
OK, fellows, you got our attention.
while we are working the bugs out of the website presentation we can tell you about a decision that became clear by Saturday morning: we will have a new SKU, # 61-333, on our website which includes the basic MTR-18 Triangle along with all the items listed in the "Master Accessory Kit" for a combined sales price of $ 299.95 - along with FREE global shipping during the introductory phase.

We noted some 23 distinct comments on this FOG thread spread over 40 posts which we have cataloged for responses -
We will figure out how to best respond to everyone of those observations and report back.

We are shipping orders from stock according to the sequence we received them.They ship in two separate packages for protection in transit.

-more in the days ahead
     thanks
     Hans and Eric

ps: THIS THREAD MAY BE MOVED TO THE DEALER SECTION OF THIS FORUM
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline John Stevens

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2017, 10:12 PM »
Reading the TSO Insider email last month announcing new products, I assumed they were new GRS units with additional functions, or accessories for the GRS units.  Adjustable stops along 600mm scales, something like that.  Wishing TSO success with this products, but no demand for it/them from this consumer.  Sorry not be cheering for the new products, but I hope this is useful info anyway.

--John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 299
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2017, 11:13 PM »
Hans,

I don't see the option at the website to purchase the complete system 61-333 for $299.95. Will that be added this week or can we order both the triangle and the accessories at the listed price and you all adjust the price (refund the difference) when you process the order?

Thanks
Jack

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2017, 11:30 PM »
Reading the TSO Insider email last month announcing new products, I assumed they were new GRS units with additional functions, or accessories for the GRS units.  Adjustable stops along 600mm scales, something like that.  Wishing TSO success with this products, but no demand for it/them from this consumer.  Sorry not be cheering for the new products, but I hope this is useful info anyway.

--John
@JohnStevens - we are so appreciative of the customer interest for our next new product - like the GRS-16 Accessory for setting Paraallel Guide distance AND squaring of the guide rail in one pass. with the launch of the new Triangles off to a very good (order) start, we can now move forward with the GRS-16 accessory - aiming to ship in the fourth quarter.
Hans and Eric
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2017, 11:36 PM »
Hans,

I don't see the option at the website to purchase the complete system 61-333 for $299.95. Will that be added this week or can we order both the triangle and the accessories at the listed price and you all adjust the price (refund the difference) when you process the order?

Thanks
Jack
@Claimdude - any orders placed for the MTR-18 AND Accessory Kit will automatically be refunded the difference until the new SKU and $ 299.95 price are up and running. We did the same automatic refunds thing with the shipping cost errors our system  spit out ( I think Eric will spit the Shipping software out shortly, too, if it keeps making mistakes!)

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Svar

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2017, 11:54 PM »
I wish Festool would learn a thing or two from TSO how to engage with users. I have no interest in this particular product, but the way they listen, adapt, admit shortcomings, and improve in near real time and seems like 24/7 is admirable. Bravo, TSO.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2017, 12:01 AM »
I wish Festool would learn a thing or two from TSO how to engage with users. I have no interest in this particular product, but the way they listen, adapt, admit shortcomings, and improve in near real time and seems like 24/7 is admirable. Bravo, TSO.
@Svar - comments like yours keeps us motivated! - thank you for your kind words
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2017, 07:13 AM »
What about storage? Does this fit in the TS-55 Systainer?

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2017, 08:24 AM »
What about storage? Does this fit in the TS-55 Systainer?

No.

Tom

Offline John Stevens

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2017, 08:38 PM »
we are so appreciative of the customer interest for our next new product - like the GRS-16 Accessory for setting Paraallel Guide distance AND squaring of the guide rail in one pass.

Thanks Hans & Eric.  I've owned an MFT and ATF55 for about a dozen years, and I've come to strongly prefer not attaching the guide rail to the table for almost all track-sawing tasks.  Good luck with the new triangles, glad to hear sales are off to a good start.  I figure anything to the success of an innovative company like TSO Products will tend to benefit me over the long run.

--John
What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2017, 10:54 PM »
It's actually $229.95 for triangle and the accessory set.
@Claimdude  - please help us see where we are not clear about the option and cost so we can correct our website presentation
Please email or let me know how I can call you for an explanation.
Your input would really help us

Hans info@tsoproducts.com

Jack

I like the idea and have been very happy with my GRS-16 PE. Just so I'm clear to get the full angle functionality I would purchase the MTR-18 and the accessory kit for $330?

The price looks pretty steep at first but coming from an engineering background and knowing what the precision machining, the 6061-T6 material and the quality anodizing just no way I could have my local shop make a similar one for that. Keep that in mind when you look at the price not even including the amount of R&D it took to design it.

My square has saved me so much time (and I honestly could have bypassed the Seneca parallel guides if I had seen it first) that it may be worth it to pick it up. Especially since I don't trust the MFT angle tool that much.

So having read all of the posts and looked at the website I still have no definite idea as to what the bits cost.

Could we get a definite answer from @TSO Products as to what you get for how much $$?

I have the rather large and expensive woodpecker square and it has a nifty hanger from the MFT, it would be cool to have something like that.  I am wondering how I am going to have both because I want this one too :P

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2017, 10:59 PM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

I've been more than once ticked that I missed a one time tool.  I find myself buying them now even if I am on the fence because I know I can always sell them for what I paid later if it doesn't really work out.    Sadly I end up always wanting to keep them, the MFT square they did which was I think around 300 dollars all in shipped is a beautiful flawless and heavy tool, I could not be more impressed with it.  This thing though has more features, the idea it has pivots and you can fasten it and such makes me want it too.

I am with you, I want something to replace the dumb festool adjustable angle guide for the track though.  Here's hoping something good comes along.

Offline jdw101

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2017, 11:07 PM »
Hmm can't quite figure out what to order, I guess the 229.95  Square and then the 99.95 master accessory kit?  What about the knobs that are coming soon? Can I buy them elsewhere or do I need to wait until they are released?

Thanks, I saw some of it in the thread but want to confirm before pulling the trigger.




Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2017, 11:29 PM »
Hmm can't quite figure out what to order, I guess the 229.95  Square and then the 99.95 master accessory kit?  What about the knobs that are coming soon? Can I buy them elsewhere or do I need to wait until they are released?

Thanks, I saw some of it in the thread but want to confirm before pulling the trigger.

There is the option of the square and master set at a discounted price. From what I understand if you order the 2 items it gets ported to the discounted price.

The knobs for the Clamping Elements work with the TSO dogs.

Tom

Offline jdw101

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2017, 11:35 PM »
Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

Thanks again!

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 12:42 AM »
Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

Thanks again!

That is my video---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. The track does not attach to any dogs, the rail is on the MFT rail brackets.

Tom

Offline bryan1982

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2017, 04:09 AM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

I've been more than once ticked that I missed a one time tool.  I find myself buying them now even if I am on the fence because I know I can always sell them for what I paid later if it doesn't really work out.    Sadly I end up always wanting to keep them, the MFT square they did which was I think around 300 dollars all in shipped is a beautiful flawless and heavy tool, I could not be more impressed with it.  This thing though has more features, the idea it has pivots and you can fasten it and such makes me want it too.

I am with you, I want something to replace the dumb festool adjustable angle guide for the track though.  Here's hoping something good comes along.


Yeay i need an angle attachment to be connected to the guide rail not my mft .


We will keep waiting

Cheers

Bryan

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 244
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2017, 10:52 AM »
 I am reviewing a plan for a two tier round glass top plant stand, It calls for three interlocking legs. The plans call for a 4° end cut on each arm with each arm  fitting into a 1/2 inch notch cut at a 4° angle. The entire project is shown being done on a table saw with the miter gauge set at 4°. The set up on a table saw requires a dado blade set. It occurs to me that if three arms are put side by side the notches can be plowed out with a router, fence rail and the TSO MTR 18 setting the path at 4°. The end cuts at 4° are a quick fix.

The TSO MTR 18 seems made for this project. I am sorry I can't find a photo to post.

At first I was hard pressed to come up with a project that would require the new offering.

Two questions:

1. Is a 4° angle easily set?

2. As my grandmother would exclaim... "What's the good of it? Where and for what purpose exactly would you use the TSO- MTR-18? 45° trim cuts? Picture framing? Shims?  Stair building? Rafter cutting? One recent poster noted the slope on a vegetable planter was 52°. That would be an easy cut for this tool.

You could spend the  money to make this:






Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2017, 11:00 AM »
Quote
    Thank you!  Also the dogs that are used in the MFT in that video, they have some type of fastener to the track.. what are those?  That would be handy.

    Thanks again!


That is my video---I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. The track does not attach to any dogs, the rail is on the MFT rail brackets.

Tom
It was in the photo, maybe I was mistaken, see the highlighted parts, the orange thing that seems like it attaches the dogs to the rail.



http://imgur.com/a/yzU0h


Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 508
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2017, 11:30 AM »
@jdw101
Those are UJK rail clips, available exclusively (for the time-being) from Axminster in the UK.  They will ship to the US - total cost to me on the west coast was $20.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology-dog-rail-clip-pair-102973
"What you have to do tomorrow, do today.  What you have to do today, do now."  - a wise grandfather who was clearly talking about purchasing Festools

Offline jdw101

  • Posts: 67
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2017, 11:37 AM »
@jdw101
Those are UJK rail clips, available exclusively (for the time-being) from Axminster in the UK.  They will ship to the US - total cost to me on the west coast was $20.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology-dog-rail-clip-pair-102973

Thanks!

Offline supimeister

  • Posts: 76
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2017, 10:21 PM »

One more item: the knobs that attach the square to the MFT are, I assume, standard Festool items, it would be nice to mention that somewhere in the body of the text. Some one may assume that they are also part of the Accessories Kit. [big grin]

From the text in the Master Accessory Set.

"Optionally, you can add SpeedKnobs™ (coming soon) to clamp the dogs in place for added rigidity, or use the M8 knobs included in Festool’s 488030 Clamping Elements kit."

Tom

I've been more than once ticked that I missed a one time tool.  I find myself buying them now even if I am on the fence because I know I can always sell them for what I paid later if it doesn't really work out.    Sadly I end up always wanting to keep them, the MFT square they did which was I think around 300 dollars all in shipped is a beautiful flawless and heavy tool, I could not be more impressed with it.  This thing though has more features, the idea it has pivots and you can fasten it and such makes me want it too.

I am with you, I want something to replace the dumb festool adjustable angle guide for the track though.  Here's hoping something good comes along.


Yeay i need an angle attachment to be connected to the guide rail not my mft .


We will keep waiting

Cheers

Bryan

 @TSO Products - three questions: 1) any chance you will be able to somehow come up with an accessory to connect to the guide rail rather than mft? 2) how long will you continue to offer free shipping on the MTR18?  3) I think several of us are still a bit confused on what to order for the $300 pricing option. 

Thanks for your helpful responses so far, and I look forward to another one  :) :)

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2017, 11:35 PM »
@supimeister  - answer to your first question: yes it can be made to connect to the FESTOOL Guide Rail. Now that we have ample Triangles and parts to work on developing this accessory we will do a little multi-tasking between other development work - BECAUSE - we have provided multiple accessory attachment positions in a standardized mounting pattern around the perimeter of the MTR-18 Triangle (same M6 mounting pattern on 10mm centers as on the GRS-16's). We will use a different Latch.

We would welcome your input describing how you would use this combination.
Please get in touch and email me your contact information so we can discuss. This invitation goes to any other FOG members who have ideas or questions for using our Triangles in creative ways.

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

PS: we're working over the website and hope the Triangle description gets a better report card by Monday  [wink]
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2017, 11:54 PM »
@supimeister - Your Question # 2 - earlier: - "how much longer will we offer free shipping?"
Answer: until we have given the product enough exposure via customer deliveries that word of mouth will carry us forward in a sustainable way. For sure long enough that there will be a clear understanding of the offering contents and related pricing. We want you to be able to make a thoughtful decision in possession of all the details you should have for such an important matter. You're not going to buy  another for a long time unless you need one for the shop and one for the road.
We are also bringing more accessories online to expand the overall utility of this Triangle.

Question # 3: Confusion caused by our less than stellar introductory information - we were too close to the trees and could not see the forest. But with hindsight, we're doing better now as you'll see when (our) Eric gets our "Triangles-at-a-glance" sheet up on https://tsoproducts.com/tools-equipment/mtr-18-precision-system-triangle-with-infinite-angle-setting/ - wait . . . till Sunday to look for it. Then give us our report card, candidly.
Hans
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Offline denovo

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2017, 06:43 AM »
Can the double sided foot be mounted on either the opposite or adjacent side of the triangle?  The reason I ask is to allow the metric or imperial markings to be where you want them depend on the orientation of the triangle.  Maybe this isn't an issue in use but seems like a good idea

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2017, 08:09 AM »
Can the double sided foot be mounted on either the opposite or adjacent side of the triangle?  The reason I ask is to allow the metric or imperial markings to be where you want them depend on the orientation of the triangle.  Maybe this isn't an issue in use but seems like a good idea

The opposite and adjacent sides are both drilled and tapped.

Tom

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2017, 11:18 PM »
@jdw101
Those are UJK rail clips, available exclusively (for the time-being) from Axminster in the UK.  They will ship to the US - total cost to me on the west coast was $20.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-technology-dog-rail-clip-pair-102973

Thanks!

We have imported a substantial inventory of UJK DOG RAIL CLIPS from the UK and will offer them for sale along with our 80mm TALL DoubleGroove Dogs later this month (May 2017).
They make a fabulously simple and quick connection between Guide Rail and  Tall Dogs and thus square the rail to the worktop or MFT/3.
The CLIPS are in stock in our warehouse in Minnesota, just waiting for our 80mm tall Dogs to come back from anodizing so we can offer both. They are simply a great combination as you all will see later in May. We will post it on the FOG and tell all about it on our TSO INSIDER Newsletter  as soon as we are set up to ship. Sorry, we are not set up to ship the Clips now -please don't ask and allow us the time to get everything set up on our website.

Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
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Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2017, 11:25 PM »
CHOOSING YOUR TRIANGLE at-a Glance

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-precision-system-triangles/

has just become a whole lot easier because we have heard you. Please look it up on our website, scroll down and let us know if we are doing a better job of explaining what each item does, what it includes and at what price.

Technical Spec Summary is next.
Stay with us

Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline bryan1982

  • Posts: 126
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2017, 08:09 AM »
Ok so im still confused

Will this product work now or in the future with a guide rail for angles with out the need for a bench with 20mm holes

@TSO Products

Or is there a new product coming for angles with a guide rail

Cheers

Bryan

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2017, 08:15 AM »
Ok so im still confused

Will this product work now or in the future with a guide rail for angles with out the need for a bench with 20mm holes

@TSO Products

Or is there a new product coming for angles with a guide rail

Cheers

Bryan

It will work to set the guide rail, with or without the 20 mm holes. The guide rail does not [currently], (I don't know what future plans are) attach to the MTR, just butts against it.

Tom

Offline Claimdude

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2017, 08:20 AM »
Hans,

Web page much easier to understand now.

Jack

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2017, 09:29 AM »
Ok so im still confused

Will this product work now or in the future with a guide rail for angles with out the need for a bench with 20mm holes

@TSO Products

Or is there a new product coming for angles with a guide rail

Cheers

Bryan

It will work to set the guide rail, with or without the 20 mm holes. The guide rail does not [currently], (I don't know what future plans are) attach to the MTR, just butts against it.

Tom

I spoke with Hans yesterday.  Currently this does not work with guide rails except as Tom mentioned BUT, based on my conversation with Hans, I believe that they are currently working on an accessory that will be able to be added at a later time so that it WILL be able to work with the rail.

Perhaps @TSO Products can confirm.

Peter

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 390
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2017, 01:38 PM »
The website still needs a bit of adjustment. The caption below suggests that the kit comes with the SpeedKnobs which is not the case. I realize that on the website itself, the font color is different for SpeedKNobs, but it is still a bit confusing.

Shown above with Master Accessory Kit  SpeedKnobs™

I also think it is a bit disappointing to buy a $300 tool and then be told to go look in your Festool accessories to find the knobs needed to use the tool.

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2017, 04:47 PM »
TSO website clip:

What’s in the Master Accessory Box
One Pointer with Parallax-Free Viewport
Two DoubleGroove™ Dogs
One T-bolt
One Locking Pin (brass)
Two M6 threaded Index Pins

 

Optional Accessories Coming Soon
Additional Brass Locking Pin Angle Stops
T-bolts
Tall (80mm) DoubleGroove™ Dogs
Dog Rail Clips
SpeedKnobs™
Clamping Angles
* * * * * * * * *
About the SpeedKnobs and why they are not standard:
Many FESTOOL users/customers already have the Clamping Elements Knobs which work for this purpose. We felt we should give the customer the choice and not make them pay for something they may consider redundant.

Our SpeedKnob is the result of searching high and low for the "perfect" Knob for this application. We found it in Germany and are importing it from there. It is a 50mm (2 inch) diameter 5-Lobe Knob, molded solid with smooth to-the touch edges and a cylindrical 25mm (1 inch) diameter Hub that is wider than the dog hole it needs to extend over. It is really the best handling knob for the purpose.
What makes it a "Speed" knob are the 5 Lobes that allow you to spin the knob on or off. This time saving convenience will be appreciated by anyone who has the choice.

My question to the FOG is is this: these Knobs will need to sell for somewhere between $ 10 and $ 15/pair. plus shipping if sold separately. You can buy the smaller Canadian injection molded Knob for $ 4.00 /pair plus shipping.  We tried all three and found the heavier  "SpeedKnob" best for the purpose - but customer choice.

We thrive on feedback - please comment [smile]
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2017, 04:54 PM »
Ok so im still confused

Will this product work now or in the future with a guide rail for angles with out the need for a bench with 20mm holes

@TSO Products

Or is there a new product coming for angles with a guide rail

Cheers

Bryan

It will work to set the guide rail, with or without the 20 mm holes. The guide rail does not [currently], (I don't know what future plans are) attach to the MTR, just butts against it.

Tom

I spoke with Hans yesterday.  Currently this does not work with guide rails except as Tom mentioned BUT, based on my conversation with Hans, I believe that they are currently working on an accessory that will be able to be added at a later time so that it WILL be able to work with the rail.

Perhaps @TSO Products can confirm.

Peter

YES, we have another accessory in the works - a means of attaching the the MTR-18 Triangle to the edge of the guide Rail. That is one of the reasons for the pattern of tapped M6 holes around the perimeter of the MTR-18 Triangle.
We expect customers will nominate some other accessory application for development.
Hans
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline jimbo51

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Re: TSO MTR-18 Service
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2017, 11:12 AM »
I recently received my TSO MTR-18. I have not have an opportunity to use it yet, but I will mention that TSO is trying to make sure any issues are handled quickly. The package contained a note that the included dogs were not anodized due to a scheduling error and that replacement anodized dogs would be shipped soon.

Hans has been very helpful in dealing with a parts issue I encountered. The brass pin and the T bolt would not tighten properly even after I chased the threads on both. Hans responded to my email very quickly. He asked me to check a couple of points and when that did not resolve the issue, he told me he would send replacement parts. I received an email last night saying that the replacement parts would be sent by overnight delivery. I see that an excellent service.

Hans also answered some questions I had and provided an explanation on why the brass locating/locking pin was smooth and not knurled (they wanted to avoid over tightening).

While the roll out of this product has had some glitches, I see Hans and TSO working hard to make things right for the customer.

Offline ShadyMaple

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2017, 07:33 PM »
So - maybe I am posting this in the wrong place - but I noticed the PTR-18 as well and it has what appears to be 20mm holes in a triangle pattern.

Could I theoretically use a hole saw with that pattern as a bit guide to make an MFT top? Or would the holes be out of spec size?

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2017, 08:57 PM »
@ShadyMaple  - using the PTR-18 as a pattern would be technically possible but would degrade a precision tool to just a precision triangle. To use a tool as a drill bushing you should really have hardened bushings. Aluminum is the wrong material for that.
BTW: the 20mm holes in our PTR-18 are all on 92mm centers

We are believers in using precision where it matters and can be bought at low cost. Some of our customers have used our free worktop CAD downloads and for about $ 150.00 incl. material had a commercial shop CNC rout them a 4x8 or smaller top with precision 20mm holes on precise 92mm centers.

If you are only using the 20mm holes to place clamps then precision doesn't matter a whole lot.

Hans
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Bohdan

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2017, 09:12 PM »

BTW: the 20mm holes in our PTR-18 are all on 92mm centers

Hans

So are you saying that they won't work with the festool MFT which have holes on 96mm centres?

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2017, 09:45 PM »
@Bohdan - glad somebody on this forum keeps an eye on me and saving me from further embarassment [embarassed]
of course 32mm x 3 still equals 96mm (even at TSO [wink]) and our Triangles are designed to integrate with MFT/3 and other worktops using this pattern.
thanks for catching this !
Hans
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18 Service
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2017, 03:53 PM »
It's been a few weeks since I called and I've not received the replacement parts for the same problem. You say they overnighted it you? I've neither received a response to an email from a week ago requesting an eta and today not able to reach anyone by phone.

I recently received my TSO MTR-18. I have not have an opportunity to use it yet, but I will mention that TSO is trying to make sure any issues are handled quickly. The package contained a note that the included dogs were not anodized due to a scheduling error and that replacement anodized dogs would be shipped soon.

Hans has been very helpful in dealing with a parts issue I encountered. The brass pin and the T bolt would not tighten properly even after I chased the threads on both. Hans responded to my email very quickly. He asked me to check a couple of points and when that did not resolve the issue, he told me he would send replacement parts. I received an email last night saying that the replacement parts would be sent by overnight delivery. I see that an excellent service.

Hans also answered some questions I had and provided an explanation on why the brass locating/locking pin was smooth and not knurled (they wanted to avoid over tightening).

While the roll out of this product has had some glitches, I see Hans and TSO working hard to make things right for the customer.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2017, 11:00 PM »
@woodvkk  - glad you kept on trying to reach us in spite of not being able to get a response from us on our direct contacts.We apologize but don't have an explanation how or why this happened. So let's try to get it right - right now:

email us  with your customer name since we can't associate FOG names with customer names and contacts.
Let us know which replacement part you need so we can get it on the way to you on Monday from our complete stock.

we have an all-hands company meeting on Saturday to finalize the expanded Accessory kit offering content expect details on Monday here on the FOG. You'll all see that we have been working on more than just our website.

Hans
hans@tsoproducts.com

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2017, 02:59 AM »
Hans, thank you, will do
@woodvkk  - glad you kept on trying to reach us in spite of not being able to get a response from us on our direct contacts.We apologize but don't have an explanation how or why this happened. So let's try to get it right - right now:

email us  with your customer name since we can't associate FOG names with customer names and contacts.
Let us know which replacement part you need so we can get it on the way to you on Monday from our complete stock.

we have an all-hands company meeting on Saturday to finalize the expanded Accessory kit offering content expect details on Monday here on the FOG. You'll all see that we have been working on more than just our website.

Hans
hans@tsoproducts.com

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2017, 04:42 PM »
@woodvkk  -  please resend the email for which you did not receive a response from  TSO  so we can troubleshoot the cause of lack of connection.
also check to see if any of our emails are trapped in a spam blocking junk folder.

Look for a post to all within 24 hours on good news for accessory shipments to all existing MTR-18 Triangle purchasers [smile]

Hans
hans@tsoproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline woodvkk

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2017, 04:54 PM »
Hans, already sent it this AM

@woodvkk  -  please resend the email for which you did not receive a response from  TSO  so we can troubleshoot the cause of lack of connection.
also check to see if any of our emails are trapped in a spam blocking junk folder.

Look for a post to all within 24 hours on good news for accessory shipments to all existing MTR-18 Triangle purchasers [smile]

Hans
hans@tsoproducts.com

Offline Brian Livingstone

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2017, 07:32 PM »
Hi,

Have you considered working with any Canadian Festool dealers to distribute your products ?

If not, I recommend Dan Clermont's Ultimate Tools.  I live in Nova Scotia, they are in British Columbia.  They provide even a distant customer awesome service.

All the best.

Brian
Kapex, TS75, MFT, OF1010, OF1400, DTS400 REQ, Parallel guide rails, 1080, 1400, 3000 guide rail, Domino 500, CT36, ETS 150/3, RS2E, Crown stops, 6 drawer Sortainer, Carvex, Syslite II, Festool safety glasses must start to wear.

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2017, 11:26 PM »
Brian,  the recommendation of your Canadian FESTOOL distributor speaks well for their performance in taking care of customers - quite important in our own view. TSO is quite well established at this phase in our growth as a direct selling company (only) and benefitting from the direct contact with our international customer base and US customers as  well.
We do not have any plans for selling through distribution,
Thank you for thinking of us - very kind!

Hans and Eric
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2017, 07:52 PM »
accessory kit upgrades shipping free to early MTR-18 Kit purchasers shortly -
Expect to see updated information on our website and The TSO Insider soon for future purchasers

these kits constitute an upgrade to the original ACCESSORY KIT at NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE  for existing purchasers [smile]

Contents of upgrade portion only:
(2) Anodized DoubleGroove Dogs (replacing the original un-anodized ones) p/n 610-215
(2) SpeedKnobs, 5-Lobe, with M8 Stud p/n 610-217 (to lock down Dogs to MFT style worktops)
(2) Clamping Angles, 7 inch /177mm long, aluminum, anodized, p/n 610-226
(4) M6x10 Socket Head Cap Screws, Stainless, p/n 699-112 (for attching Clamping Angles)
(1) M3 Allen Hex Driver with screw driver handle (to fit the M4 Screws holding Triangle Foot); p/n 698-101
(1) M5 Allen Hex Driver with screw driver handle (to fit M6 Screws holding Clamping Angles); p/n 698-130
Recipients will receive individual tracking information automatically

your continued support is greatly appreciated!
Eric and Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 299
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2017, 08:26 PM »
Wow! Christmas in June!!!

Thanks Hans!

accessory kit upgrades shipping free to early MTR-18 Kit purchasers shortly -
Expect to see updated information on our website and The TSO Insider soon for future purchasers

these kits constitute an upgrade to the original ACCESSORY KIT at NO ADDITIONAL CHARGE  for existing purchasers [smile]

Contents of upgrade portion only:
(2) Anodized DoubleGroove Dogs (replacing the original un-anodized ones) p/n 610-215
(2) SpeedKnobs, 5-Lobe, with M8 Stud p/n 610-217 (to lock down Dogs to MFT style worktops)
(2) Clamping Angles, 7 inch /177mm long, aluminum, anodized, p/n 610-226
(4) M6x10 Socket Head Cap Screws, Stainless, p/n 699-112 (for attching Clamping Angles)
(1) M3 Allen Hex Driver with screw driver handle (to fit the M4 Screws holding Triangle Foot); p/n 698-101
(1) M5 Allen Hex Driver with screw driver handle (to fit M6 Screws holding Clamping Angles); p/n 698-130
Recipients will receive individual tracking information automatically

your continued support is greatly appreciated!
Eric and Hans
info@tsoproducts.com

Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2017, 09:38 PM »
First class responsiveness, Hans and Eric.

Thanks!


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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2017, 10:07 PM »
speaking of responsiveness:
YES, we try hard, but have noticed a gap in our system where follow-up and response requests can fall through the cracks. Incoming communication cannot be tracked by us systematically. Depending on the subject matter it may be seen by one of us while slated for response by someone else.

It would be helpful if we could find an app that allows us to track each incoming communication with a "Case Number" so we can see what's open, due for a response and a way to confirm the customer has the expected response.

Anyone know of an app or a business who seems to have an exemplary means of keeping track? We know Microsoft Office 365 does and their system is very effective. There must be something out there for us little people too, SAAS software as a service ?

Hans

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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline SouthRider

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2017, 10:13 PM »
Check out zendesk for a customer service system. I believe it is scalable.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2017, 10:22 PM »
@SouthRider  - zendesk with 300 million in sales and 1700 employees must be on to something. A quick glance at their website tells its worth looking into.

We'll check out zendesk and see what else is out there. Thanks foe the quick help!

Hans
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline neilc

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2017, 07:48 AM »
+1 on Zendesk.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2017, 09:23 AM »
Any word on the rail clips? I do not see any mention on the website.

Offline tomp

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2017, 04:45 PM »
Can the double sided foot be mounted on either the opposite or adjacent side of the triangle?  The reason I ask is to allow the metric or imperial markings to be where you want them depend on the orientation of the triangle.  Maybe this isn't an issue in use but seems like a good idea

The opposite and adjacent sides are both drilled and tapped.

Tom

Just received mine last week, and only the one edge is tapped. The face on both sides is tapped however. Was this an error?

Tom

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2017, 06:02 PM »
@tomp  - no the edge drilllinig on one side was no manufacturing error. It was a judgement call we made in the absence of information to the contrary.
Can we do it? - absolutely
Does it add cost - certainly

It may not seem like much - but a little bit here and a little bit there  adds cost to a product offering  that is already a margin challenge for us.
What led to the decision to have just one side drilled and tapped was the absence of any indication that the one-side-only drilling on the widely known RED WP OTT 18" Precision Triangle has only one side tapped. We felt that was real-life validation it was not needed.
But thinking about this again, I believe we now know why this works on the WP tool: it is the fact that it does NOT offer METRIC and IMPERAIL scales on one and the same tool  as TSO has done. Therein lies the rub.

We are open to suggestions - as you can see in our move to expand the Accessory contents while we figure out the cost/price ramifications. This product is an ambitious undertaking to bring expanded capabilitiy to the market so we stuck our neck out.

Based on this insight we will pull our entire inventory of finished Triangles and add the second side of tapped holes to PTR-18 and MTR-18 Triangles before shipping any more.

If we have any customers for whom the existing hole pattern is a problem, please let us know. We will find a way to make it right regardless in what part of the world our customer lives.

This brings me to another insight: the rabbettet 6mm slot for the T-Bolt is only on one side. If we are going to bring finished tools back into the shop we would consider milling the rabbet on the other side as well. We will supply a larger 5/8" / 15.8mm diameter Brass Locking Pin/Knob so it will cover the rabbett when used as a stop-block next to rather than through the Indexing Pointer.

Your feedback on all this now, please.
Hans
info@tsoproducts.com
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline tomp

  • Posts: 5
Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2017, 06:47 PM »
Hans,

I honestly don't see the need to be able to mount the foot to either edge, I just commented because the post I referenced stated that both edges were tapped. IMO, the scale markings on the edges are a nice reference, but I would use a regular scale to make any required accurate marks on the part - layout a perpendicular pencil line off the edge and then use a thin steel scale to mark off dimensions so as not to have any parallax errors creep in. I use one of the WP scales with the tapered edges and the end stop for layout, and would keep doing that.

On another subject, I also bought a GRS-16 and am awaiting the attachment to allow cross-cutting parts to length. I'm assuming that it's going to be similar to the one that I made for my EZ square which allows me to cut lengths just past the height of a bottom cabinet end.


264349-0264351-1

Offline denovo

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2017, 07:14 PM »
I use metric in my shop and imperial on site so having the ability to change the foot location and having the t-bolt on either side is a huge advantage to me.  If these changes are made then I'll be ordering one of these

Cheers,
Bryan

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2017, 10:05 PM »
thank you gentlemen for your responses and differeing perspectives - it all helps.
And you won't have to wait long for the full fledged 'has everything" version of the MTR-18 to be available to order AND ship as a set with all the accessories.

stay tuned and keep the comments coming!

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline Bigdaddy65

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2017, 12:26 PM »
@TSO Products
Hans,

Is the ability to clamp the MTR-18 to the rail still in the plans? if so, will this be an additional accessory or will it be included in the master accessory kit and do you have an ETA? I've been watching and waiting to purchase until everything was available but looks like waiting has cost me about $80.

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2017, 02:14 PM »
@TSO Products
Hans,

Is the ability to clamp the MTR-18 to the rail still in the plans? if so, will this be an additional accessory or will it be included in the master accessory kit and do you have an ETA? I've been watching and waiting to purchase until everything was available but looks like waiting has cost me about $80.

@Bigdaddy65 - yes the MTR-18 Triangle attachment to Guide Rails is very much on our radar. But holding up ordering something until the next generation comes out is not a practical approach in our view.

If you can use the MTR-18 in its current configuration you should just go ahead and get it now.
We have been very focused on getting the Triangle product line and accessories set up in a way which responds to the customer feedback we have received.

We don't have a target date for the MTR-18 guide rail attachment, yet. It will be in THE TSO INSIDER newsletter as soon as we have a date.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

Offline TSO Products

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Re: TSO MTR-18
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2017, 10:40 PM »
Check out zendesk for a customer service system. I believe it is scalable.
@SouthRider  @neilc  and others who have responded to our call for a proven customer service management software: THANK YOU ALL for nominating ZENDESK.

We have started implementation  [smile]
Hans, Eric and Tamara
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Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions