Author Topic: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos  (Read 148132 times)

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Offline squarecut

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #270 on: February 02, 2017, 01:10 AM »
If you've got a set of parf dogs that were manufactured when they were first released, there may be an issue fitting them into the jig for the PGS.  I'm having trouble with both the short and tall dogs, neither will fit inside the jig, they get stuck halfway.  I do have another set of tall dogs I ordered a year or so ago and those fit inside very tightly.  I'm going to call Lee Valley tomorrow.  I suspect they will just send out a new set of dogs.
@RKA  I am getting ready to use my PGS on new bench tops & your post regarding this problem prompted me to checkout the fit of my Parf dogs to the PGS jig. I basically found the same problem you described much to my chagrin. I tried the 3mm bushing supplied with the PGS & found that it initially was a tight fit as well. This indicated to me that quite possibly the orange finish was of enough thickness to be causing the problem. I decided to try some moderate experimenting to see if I could rectify the issue without going the vendor complaint route. First, I applied a coating of 3 in 1 oil to both the inside of the jig holes & the external surface of the Parf dogs to negate friction. Then I used very fine steel wool on the oiled surfaces to remove any possible foreign matter. Then using extreme patience I proceeded to press each Parf dog into each hole at least a half dozen times. Each time the dog entry got easier. I suspect the tolerances on the hole & Parf dog are very tight to insure accuracy of the system & if the dog is slightly askew it will immediately jam, so care must be taken when inserting it. I have one set of Long & Short Parf dogs I purchased in March 2014 & two pair Short - one pair Long purchased in August 2016 so I do not think the issue is with the dogs, at least in my case. By the way, the long dogs are not used with the PGS. I realize this can be frustrating as one would expect the components to mate right out of the box. Hope my findings help with your issue.
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Offline RKA

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #271 on: February 02, 2017, 11:14 AM »
@squarecut @Peter Parfitt

Thanks!  I played with it for 15 minutes last night.  I tried wax and that didn't improve matters with the old dogs.  I too thought the anodization may have added just enough thickness to cause binding.  The newer dogs however go in just right (you do have to be careful not to insert at an angle or it can bind).  If anything it's a little fiddly and I expect oil will smooth it out nicely.  I know it needs to be a very tight fit to maintain precision, but it does seems the older dogs are sized exactly the same size as the hole rather than a thou smaller.  I'll try the oil anyway but I doubt it will improve matters. 

It's very possible they were never milled with this level of precision from batch to batch.  In the way they were originally intended to work, this variation would never be seen or noticed in a finished product, but with Peter's subsequent ingenuity....

BTW, I checked the dates on my orders.  The older dogs were shipped on 10/15/13 and the newer set were shipped on 1/4/16. 
-Raj

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #272 on: February 02, 2017, 01:51 PM »
Hi Chaps

Sorry but I have been out all day and have only just returned to base.

Axminster are aware of this and are doing some research now. I do not believe that it is a Lee Valley /  Parf Dog problem at this stage - after all they are making Parf Dogs for track saw cutting stations and Axminster are utilising them in the Parf Guide System to create custom track saw cutting stations. Here are my thoughts but I must stress that @AxminsterTools will need to let us know what they discover.

1.   The fit of the dog shoulders in the 20 mm jig has been made deliberately as close as possible to slop free.

2.   Yes, it is certainly possible for the anodising to be just a dash too thick - or rather the oxide is too thick. This is being looked at by Axminster and their anodising processor.

3.   The deliberate tighter fit means that the dogs may need a little "wiggle" to get perfect alignment for them to pass through.

4.   I would hope that Axminster can give some very simple guidance to users to sort this out which would not invalidate any warranty - something along the lines of what @squarecut has done - but please wait for Axminster's advice.

If the fit of the dogs into the 20 mm guide block were loose then the accuracy might suffer.

Peter

Offline squarecut

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #273 on: February 02, 2017, 08:11 PM »
@RKA @Peter Parfitt
Have done some more experimenting & I am more convinced that the culprit may well be the anodizing thickness. Went through another series of repetitive insertions of the dogs into the guide bar holes resulting in greater ease of insertion.
Also, I discovered that it is more difficult attempting to accomplish insertion freehand than it is with the guide block positioned above 20mm holes in the work surface. In addition, by utilizing the fastening knob from the Festool clamping elements threaded onto the Parf dog it aids insertion. This practice lines up the dog with the 20mm hole and virtually eliminates the skewing of the dog in the guide block hole thus preventing jamming. I also tried the long Parf dog as a substitute for the knob and that worked as well.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 10:01 PM by squarecut »
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Offline RKA

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #274 on: February 02, 2017, 08:56 PM »
Peter, I tried oil and it didn't resolve the issue, the older dogs will not fit.  But I did realize the bottom side of the hole is a hair wider allowing the dog to get halfway in before it binds.  The top side is narrower preventing the dog from getting into the hole at all.  Trying this same thing with the newer dogs yielded the same results, in the sense it was easier to insert from the bottom and more difficult to insert in the top (but since they are a bit smaller, they will insert fully from either side). 

Hopefully that helps shed some light.  Pics are below in case I wasn't clear in my descriptions.

(Edit 2/13/17)
Just a quick follow up on this issue for those similarly affected.  I deemed the fit a little too tight to proceed with the honing and since I could see variation in the dogs, I asked Lee Valley to send out a replacement set for the ones I purchased in 2013.  The new set arrived last week and the small dogs fit perfectly in the guide.  The larger dogs almost fit.  I could hone the guide a bit, however really speaking, I will only use the short dogs with this guide and they fit perfectly, so why add slop to the fit?  In summary:
-small and large dogs purchased in 2013 do not fit
-large dogs purchased in 2016 do fit
-small dogs from 2017 do fit
-large dogs from 2017 do not fit

Kudos to Lee Valley for their excellent service! 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 11:32 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #275 on: February 02, 2017, 10:27 PM »
My first thought is that a very fine valve grinding compound would lap them in for a perfect fit (apply to the inner surface, insert the dog, and gently rotate 180 degrees clockwise and counterclockwise 3 or 4 times, then clean profusely.

If there is a fear of that being too aggressive then try using toothpaste as the lapping compound. It is MUCH finer than  valve compound.

Either would leave shallower scratches than steel wool.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline AxminsterTools

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #276 on: February 03, 2017, 09:51 AM »
Good Afternoon All,

The tolerances we use when machining the hole in the jig are extremely accurate, the jig is then anodized which gives a better, more durable protective coating.

The anodizing process adds a very small layer on the surface of the block, normally around 15-20 microns in thickness. To put that into context, photo copier paper is around 100 microns. After anodizing all the holes are checked for tolerance using a plug gauge.

The dog and hole are both made to such a high tolerance that very occasionally you may experience the dog being a bit tight when inserting into the hole. If this occurs we would recommend using a very mild abrasive such as brasso / T-cut / honing pastes, or as South Rider recommends toothpaste, between the dog and hole to slacken the whole ever so slightly. This will likely only need a couple of turns "back and forth" to sort.

Of course, should this no remedy the issue or you do not feel comfortable taking the remedial steps then we will replace any guide block FOC.

We trust that helps.

Best regards

Axminster Tools & Machinery
Axminster Tools & Machinery

03332 406406
www.axminster.co.uk

Offline squarecut

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #277 on: February 03, 2017, 03:06 PM »
@AxminsterTools
Thank you for your prompt response to this issue - used toothpaste as suggested by your post and combined with my prior experimental remedies, my issue has been resolved. As @Peter Parfitt is fond of saying  - Spot On ! Also a shout out to @SouthRider  for his toothpaste suggestion as well.
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Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #278 on: February 03, 2017, 03:48 PM »
Thanx guys - in another lifetime I was a motorcycle mechanic, and apprentice to a true master.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #279 on: February 03, 2017, 03:53 PM »
When I was "cut adrift" by my father as I left home after schooling I had £50 to my name. That was a reasonable amount of money in 1968 and I felt reasonably secure as I boarded the train to London with all of my worldly possessions with me.

I had made most of that stash from grinding valves on old cars - for the UK people that was B series engines and the Morris 1000s and Wolsey 1500s come to mind - there were quite a few big ends too.

But I have learnt a little more now and toothpaste is certainly the flavour of the day.

Well done everyone and thank you Mr Axminster for giving great advice.

Peter

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #280 on: February 03, 2017, 04:00 PM »
Thanx guys - in another lifetime I was a motorcycle mechanic, and apprentice to a true master.

In my previous life in Belgium I bought a new Piaggio scooter to get from my flat to work. The last mile was up a very long and steep hill. I picked up my new scooter and was horrified that despite the speedo showing up to 140 km per hour it would only do about 30 kph. I took it back to the shop the next day and said fix it or I want my money back (I said it very politely of course).

I was asked to return 3 days later to collect the scooter. Not only would it easily do 100+ kph on the flat it would go up that hill at 75 kph. I went back to the dealer to thank him.

He told me that he had retired from a career as a mechanic on the race crew for Piaggio ! I am sure that the scooter was illegal or at least not technically covered by my insurance.

Peter

Offline PatR

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #281 on: February 03, 2017, 04:52 PM »
Crickey Peter, deja vu or what reading your experiences with the Piaggio dealer in Belgium.

I had a very similar experience when I was stationed at SHAPE and my little scooter found the hill from Maisieres to Casteau to be slightly beyond the capabilities of 50cc's of raw Italian power! However one of the "fixers" took it away for a service and it came back like a snarling beast. Might have been the same fellow!

Pat

Offline P2P

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #282 on: February 03, 2017, 05:07 PM »
Crickey Peter, deja vu or what reading your experiences with the Piaggio dealer in Belgium.

I had a very similar experience when I was stationed at SHAPE and my little scooter found the hill from Maisieres to Casteau to be slightly beyond the capabilities of 50cc's of raw Italian power! However one of the "fixers" took it away for a service and it came back like a snarling beast. Might have been the same fellow!

Pat

LOL - I just sent Peter a PM with an almost identical story.  That hill was a pain before the modifications to my motorbike.   [smile]  The hill up Route d'Ath to Jurbise was even worse!
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 11:38 PM by P2P »

Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #283 on: February 03, 2017, 07:05 PM »
Peter, My avatar is me racing in 1982 on a Husqvarna. For a few years I was fortunate to be named a "support rider" for them, which was a step (a BIG step) below a factory sponsored racer. They would loan us a current bike in January, and you had to reimburse them distributor cost in the Fall, plus there was a parts allowance.

It didn't take me long to realize just how much better the guys at the next level were, and that I wasn't going to be in their number. Manufacturers supported guys like us out of every dealers shop, and required weekly reports of machine failures, successes, tweaks, and mods that we made. All that info filtered up to the factory, and I was proud to have a set of custom gear ratios I dreamed up get used by an 8 time US champion the next year, and then put into production bikes the following year.

The funny part is that with similar mechanical experience - I have never heard of one of the brands you mention in your post! [eek]
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline BarneyD

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #284 on: February 03, 2017, 07:08 PM »
I just checked my Parf dogs in my PGS (both of which I received this week) and they are a perfect fit. Would not want them any tighter, nor any looser. And just for grins, I also checked the large Parf dogs and they are equally nice.  All this talk of old vehicles made me think of my first auto - a 1959 MGA.  Had almost purged it from the memory banks.
Barney

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #285 on: February 04, 2017, 12:06 AM »
Hi @P2P and @PatR

Yes, I was at SHAPE too (1999-2004) and that was the same hill going up from the town to SHAPE.

Peter


Offline PatR

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #286 on: February 04, 2017, 04:38 AM »
Missed you by a year Peter! That hill is etched firmly in my mind as it was a favourite of the PTI's for fitness runs.

But my time at SHAPE was not wasted and it started me on the slippery slope of Systainer mountain with the ubiquitous Festo AFT65.

And it did allow me to develop a deep love of Abbey beers and hone my self control whilst waiting for the Monks of Westvleteren to 'open the hatch!'

Pat

Offline Mr_Mod

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #287 on: February 04, 2017, 05:45 AM »
I bought the Parf dogs from Leevalley 18 months ago before the Parf guide was available, sadly the 2 dont like each other and dont fit snugly. So i have just purchased both long and the short Parf dogs from Axminster to see if this time they will marry, costly divorce though as the postage to Australia isnt cheap.

Having read the earlier few posts I may try some toothpaste on them to see if I can get them to fit.

Guy

Offline DB10

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #288 on: February 04, 2017, 07:44 PM »
I bought the Parf dogs from Leevalley 18 months ago before the Parf guide was available, sadly the 2 dont like each other and dont fit snugly. So i have just purchased both long and the short Parf dogs from Axminster to see if this time they will marry, costly divorce though as the postage to Australia isnt cheap.

Having read the earlier few posts I may try some toothpaste on them to see if I can get them to fit.

Guy
@Mr_Mod From my experience with Axminster they use Royal Mail & for some reason they don't offer tracking info on Australian bound parcels (well they haven't on any of mine) If anyone else in Aus has had tracking info from Axminster I'd be interested to know. After waiting 5 weeks and no parcel from Axminster they have re sent my order which means I'm now entering week 7 and still no parcel. Axminster have been fine and it's out of their hands once they dispatch but it seems it's not the same Service to Australia as it is to N/A where people report parcels only taking one week to arrive from Axminster & also with the all important tracking info.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #289 on: February 09, 2017, 01:25 PM »
In case it has not been spotted - Axminster have announced a competition for PGS owners...

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-sales-dealer-area/win-over-80-worth-of-accessories-for-the-parf-guide-system-50261/

It is open to all PGS owners world wide.

Peter

Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #290 on: February 10, 2017, 10:15 PM »
Received mine last week and threw together a top for a home made systainer cart. The dogs fit just right - like a glove on a wet rooster!
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #291 on: February 11, 2017, 01:48 AM »
Received mine last week and threw together a top for a home made systainer cart. The dogs fit just right - like a glove on a wet rooster!

Could I ask you to put a review on the Axminster web site for the PGS as it really does help other people make the decision about a tool that they have never seen before.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #292 on: February 11, 2017, 07:06 AM »
Review done Peter! Great product & design.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #293 on: February 11, 2017, 10:04 AM »
Review done Peter! Great product & design.

That is really kind and will help everyone.

Did you see that Axminster are running a competition for PGS owners ?

Cheers.

Peter

Offline SouthRider

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #294 on: February 11, 2017, 08:37 PM »
Yes - can't get my stinking iphone to sync up with my tablet. Thanx!
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Mr_Mod

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #295 on: February 13, 2017, 06:21 AM »
Recieved the new Parf dogs from Axminster on last Thursday which was around 6 days from the UK, even more outstanding is Aus post didnt loose them. I gave them a fitness test this evening and am happy to say they fit like a dream.

A big thank you to Axminster tools

Offline msc

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #296 on: February 14, 2017, 04:27 AM »
Ime in the uk and ordered the parf dogs and the short bench dogs when they first came out. Ordered the parf guide system about two weeks ago, but due to work etc I only just looked at it. Have to say quality wise it all looks good but the fit between the dogs and the pgs hole is rather sloppy, and Ime rather disappointed due to the cost of this system compared to a router type system I bought on eBay which didn't work too we'll but was a fraction of the price. Don't know if accuracy will be affected of if the slop is just eliminated when the system is put to use.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #297 on: February 14, 2017, 04:44 AM »
Ime in the uk and ordered the parf dogs and the short bench dogs when they first came out. Ordered the parf guide system about two weeks ago, but due to work etc I only just looked at it. Have to say quality wise it all looks good but the fit between the dogs and the pgs hole is rather sloppy, and Ime rather disappointed due to the cost of this system compared to a router type system I bought on eBay which didn't work too we'll but was a fraction of the price. Don't know if accuracy will be affected of if the slop is just eliminated when the system is put to use.

You say you have slop between the PGS hole and the dog - do you mean by PGS hole the you created with the 20 mm cutter that comes as part of the PGS?

Parf Dogs should fit really snugly into these holes. How are the Parf Dogs in the MFT3?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 04:52 AM by Peter Parfitt »

Offline msc

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #298 on: February 14, 2017, 04:58 AM »
The slop is between the hole in the aluminium pgs and dog.

I have not actually used the system yet to make any holes in a board.

I suspect that there will be no slop in the hole cut in the material as I've used the Festool centrotec zorb bit to make the very simple type cutting board you showed in your videos when the parf dogs were first introduced and I have been happy with the fit of the dog and the hole made by a centrotec 20mm zorb bit.

Just went for this attempt to make something more accurate with more hole etc. The router system one I bought I gave up on due to poor tolerances and allot depended on the actual diameter of router bit (I found using a cutter that had been sharpened a few times gave better results but still not very good)


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
« Reply #299 on: February 14, 2017, 05:36 AM »
The slop is between the hole in the aluminium pgs and dog.

I have not actually used the system yet to make any holes in a board.

I suspect that there will be no slop in the hole cut in the material as I've used the Festool centrotec zorb bit to make the very simple type cutting board you showed in your videos when the parf dogs were first introduced and I have been happy with the fit of the dog and the hole made by a centrotec 20mm zorb bit.

Just went for this attempt to make something more accurate with more hole etc. The router system one I bought I gave up on due to poor tolerances and allot depended on the actual diameter of router bit (I found using a cutter that had been sharpened a few times gave better results but still not very good)

Got it - many thanks.

The fit between the large boss on the short Veritas Parf Dogs and the large holes in the 20 mm guide block of the PGS is critical. I will alert Axminster and get them to assist - it sounds like an issue with the 20 mm guide block from what you say.

Peter