Author Topic: Woodpecker Quality and price???  (Read 8826 times)

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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2018, 09:35 AM »
I just wouldn't go comparing the 2 brands.  One targets woodworkers, the other targets machine shops with metrology departments inspecting parts.  Starrett can charge way more, as those who need them will pay for it as part of doing business.  I don't think my company would know what to do with "woodpeckers" square and how to go about getting it calibrated yearly.

It's not a knock on woodpeckers, it's just they aren't targeting the same thing.

I guess my point was that until Woodpeckers made their framing square, there was only one other source for an accurate large sized Made in America square and that was Starrett, and the entry level price was high. Woodpeckers then entered the marketplace and produced a framing square that was close to the accuracy of the Starrett square yet was affordable for the average woodworker. That’s a very big deal because it brought the accuracy of the machine shop to the shop of the average woodworker. That’s not an insignificant event.

Oh I understand.   From above though I got the impression people were thinking them as the same thing/Starrett was massively overpriced, or that the price differences were "in a vacuum" and thus there is nothing else driving the price difference.  In general I struggle when people get into prices on most things as they just aren't looking at all things involved or the differences.  Of course I get one off and lower part count parts I design fabricated routinely, so I have a much different understanding of the cost in making these things then a lot of people.  Folks just don't understand how much it cost to design and make something, and how hard it is to get cost out and when you do, what you loose.  I generally try to get folks to understand that most thing we buy arn't expensive, most everything is insanely cheap when you realize all that was done to get it to market and on the shelf.  A Festool saw isn't expensive, its the 7-1/4" saw at the big box store is very cheap and that comes at many costs.

I'd say the biggest thing the last 20 years is simply the cost of CNC parts has fell thru the floor.  You can get a very good CNC "cheap" now, which has made the business for small companies to crank out highly accurate, low volume, special application machined parts a reality. If it wasn't woodpeckers it would have been other businesses.  I wasn't looking at this stuff then, so I will just assume they were the first ones to move on this based on your comments.  This is where companies need to be careful, it's very easy now for someone else to come along and do the same, so if you do things to sour some customers, it can snowball badly on you fast.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2018, 11:04 AM »
I'd say the biggest thing the last 20 years is simply the cost of CNC parts has fell thru the floor.  You can get a very good CNC "cheap" now, which has made the business for small companies to crank out highly accurate, low volume, special application machined parts a reality. If it wasn't woodpeckers it would have been other businesses.  I wasn't looking at this stuff then, so I will just assume they were the first ones to move on this based on your comments.  This is where companies need to be careful, it's very easy now for someone else to come along and do the same, so if you do things to sour some customers, it can snowball badly on you fast.

Ya, I was just thinking back to when the only "good" square you could afford was that $9 Stanley that had fallen from the scaffold 6 times and had also been run over with a car or a wheelbarrow. Woodpeckers changed that situation. [smile]

Talk about CNC, don't forget 3D printing. In 1988 a bunch of us asked management to procure a 3D printer for the model shop. That printer cost $50,000 at the time. That was a lot of money in 1988. The other day I saw that Dremel now makes one for $500-$600.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 450
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2018, 11:03 PM »

Ya, I was just thinking back to when the only "good" square you could afford was that $9 Stanley that had fallen from the scaffold 6 times and had also been run over with a car or a wheelbarrow. Woodpeckers changed that situation. [smile]


It's just been distressed to give it character and an older feel. It takes time and the attention of many 800lb gorilla's to add that craftsman ship to it, sure without that treatment they would only charge $7.95 but it just wouldn't have the charm.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2018, 11:20 PM »
It's just been distressed to give it character and an older feel. It takes time and the attention of many 800lb gorilla's to add that craftsman ship to it, sure without that treatment they would only charge $7.95 but it just wouldn't have the charm.

Well along with the charm lost... it also lost its accuracy.  [smile]

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2018, 09:26 AM »
Well, I noted in an earlier post that the 26" & 18" framing squares are no longer OTT, they are now regularly available production items.

I noticed this morning that the OTT DF500 Offset Base System has joined their ranks and is now, also a regular production item.  [big grin]. They've also maintained the pricing they had in 2015.

https://www.woodpeck.com/df500-offset-base-system.html?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Woodpeckers+DF500+Offset+Base+System&utm_content=Check+Out+the+Latest+Addition+to+our+Product+Line.&utm_campaign=11.7.18+DF500+Offset+Base+System+-+INTRODUCTORY+&_bta_tid=29743622045476421803960484196187290911130802761275264813130289801452796861754280394849903832181568545051&_bta_c=49ldt13bdxr6gzu5i2gzf5543gyxy

Offline RKA

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2018, 09:56 AM »
They have started “stocking” these items but there are some growing pains people should be aware of. I ordered the square the morning you posted that they would be regularly sold items. While the website indicated it was in stock, it appears it wasn’t. I’m still waiting. So they haven’t much much in inventory yet and if it’s not in inventory there will be a wait.
-Raj

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2018, 10:49 AM »
That's unfortunate Raj, as that was back on October 16th.  [sad]

You'd hope they would have suitable inventory levels before they make an announcement of something becoming a permanent addition to their product line. Hopefully, if this is just a hiccup, this hiccup will eventually go away.  [smile]


Offline RKA

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2018, 12:06 PM »
But they have a new website! 

I can't look up the order status though - more hiccups.  Not worth the call, it won't get here any faster.  I'll give them a pass on this one, setting up new websites and migrations are a royal pain in the butt.
-Raj

Offline RKA

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2018, 04:55 PM »
Drumroll please...
One month and 10 days after the order was placed the "in stock" order is on it's way.  So if you've been waiting on a square, they might be catching up now.
-Raj

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2018, 03:35 PM »
Drumroll please...
One month and 10 days after the order was placed the "in stock" order is on it's way.  So if you've been waiting on a square, they might be catching up now.

since TSO's  PTR-18 Precision Triangle is always in stock, you can always get one when you need such a tool. We're just as widely known so we have to try harder  [wink]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-precision-system-triangles/ptr-18-precision-basic-triangle/

Hans and Eric

Hans

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1868
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2018, 04:31 PM »
Every Woodpecker tool I own is high quality, accurate, and very precise. The OTT concept is clearly a marketing concept that has worked for awhile. If you think you want a OTT you the fact that it might not be available again is clearly a decision factor that isn't there when it's always in stock. It has moved me to buy a couple of items I might have not eventually bought if the tools would available all the time. Plus, some of the OTT's are definitely not necessities or even all that useful but, as someone else said, no one is twisting my arm to buy. As for responsiveness, I have never had a problem with Woodpeckers support. They have always given me help and straight answers.
Randy

Offline rst

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2018, 05:31 PM »
I love me some Woodpeckers.  I have an extensive collection as I frequently need to produce high quality, accurate pieces and jigs.  Are they expensive?  Yup, but who else makes such a varied selection of high quality measuring and placement tools, excepting the amazingly even more expensive measuring tools for knee bendingly accurate tools for air, aero space and other "no expense spared industry's"

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 450
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2018, 07:16 PM »

since TSO's  PTR-18 Precision Triangle is always in stock, you can always get one when you need such a tool. We're just as widely known so we have to try harder  [wink]

https://tsoproducts.com/tso-products-precision-system-triangles/ptr-18-precision-basic-triangle/

Hans and Eric

Hans

I have your dogs, and like them.  But on the triangle can TSO "try harder" (in your words) and offer it in pure metric version (and probably pure inch versions for those who want them).  I understand companies urge to "dual" things, but it just doesn't work, and also when you simple do not want inches on a tool (or mm for other folks).

This gets worse when you have something that can't be both.  Looking at the woodpeckers squares they list metric option, but show no pictures, which makes me concerned they just remark an inch square, which means the markings will make no real sense and not line up around the tool as they should.  The TSO triangle gives me similar concern, has they call it and 18" (457mm), so it's not native to the metric side it would seam, yet they are leveraging the 20mm hole system. This gets confusing. Things like what is the dimension of the 20mm holes to the edge comes to mind.  You need to have this be a logical mm value or a logical inch value, it can't be both. I can picture it being 32mm center of hole to edge, or 48mm (2 triangles in pins can but against each other), or 50mm. With any of those you can't use the same part in an inch based version. (1.25, 1.5, 2" from center is not the same value and wouldn't have potential useful-ness).  The "18" in the name makes me believe it's an inch tool with some mm holes and markings in/on it.  I'd love to see a PTR-600, or similar

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5802
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2018, 10:37 PM »
Yup, but who else makes such a varied selection of high quality measuring and placement tools, excepting the amazingly even more expensive measuring tools for knee bendingly accurate tools for air, aero space and other "no expense spared industry's"

Amen...just check out the best of the best.. Starrett, made in America, certified to calibration standards in America and priced like an ungodly American manufactured tool. They are what they are...and they’re still the best at their game.
However for the average Joe, the Woodpeckers measuring tools are a breath of fresh air. They’re accurate, there is a repeatability measurement value between their product line and they are reasonably priced. They’ll never be used by NASA, but who gives a rip?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5802
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2018, 10:56 PM »
Looking at the woodpeckers squares they list metric option, but show no pictures, which makes me concerned they just remark an inch square, which means the markings will make no real sense and not line up around the tool as they should.

Don’t sweat the small stuff... [smile]  Unlike Festool, Woodpeckers does absolutely demarcate their measuring equipment in metric measurements versus imperial measurements.
If they say metric it’s metric.   [smile]

With Festool, an inch is an inch unless it becomes a millimeter at which time all bets are off. A truly goofy group to deal with... strange behavior when their saws are marked in inches but adjusted in millimeters.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2018, 11:00 PM »
Looking at the woodpeckers squares they list metric option, but show no pictures, which makes me concerned they just remark an inch square, which means the markings will make no real sense and not line up around the tool as they should.

Don’t sweat the small stuff... [smile]  Unlike Festool, Woodpeckers does absolutely demarcate their measuring equipment in metric measurements versus imperial measurements.
If they say metric it’s metric.   [smile]

With Festool, an inch is an inch unless it becomes a millimeter at which time all bets are off. A truly goofy group to deal with... strange behavior when their saws are marked in inches but adjusted in millimeters.

Simple. An inch is 25 notches. Or 26. Whatever.  [embarassed]

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2018, 11:12 PM »
Simple. An inch is 25 notches. Or 26. Whatever.  [embarassed]

That’s good Michael...I’ll have to remember that line the next time I’m pulled over for speeding. 

55..........65........... whatever...  [smile]

Offline Cheese

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2019, 11:24 AM »
FWIW...just received an email and Woodpecker's OTT, the Variable Router Jig is now in their permanent product lineup. That makes at least 4 or 5 previous OTT items within the last couple of months that are now available on a permanent basis.


https://www.woodpeck.com/routing/router-accessories/woodpeckers-variable-router-jig.html

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 167
Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2019, 04:26 PM »
FWIW...just received an email and Woodpecker's OTT, the Variable Router Jig is now in their permanent product lineup. That makes at least 4 or 5 previous OTT items within the last couple of months that are now available on a permanent basis.


https://www.woodpeck.com/routing/router-accessories/woodpeckers-variable-router-jig.html

Thank you for that heads-up, that is great news. I crashed the bit into mine last week and milled a couple of mm off one segment. This will make it a lot easier to get a replacement piece.

Offline RKA

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2019, 05:22 PM »
@pixelated The replacement rails haven't been an issue.  You just have to call them to order.  See reply #4 in this thread for my blunder.
-Raj

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2019, 11:15 AM »
@Dan Clermont are you guys going to offer those as well?

I know that you use to have them as a OTT but since they will be on ATA I might be interested.
Mario

Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2019, 11:18 AM »
@Dan Clermont are you guys going to offer those as well?

I know that you use to have them as a OTT but since they will be on ATA I might be interested.

100% Absolutely!!!! I am not sure what the time line is for Woodpecker to provide us with this product but we will add them to the website and send out a newsletter on them shortly

Best Regards
Dan Clermont
LARGEST FESTOOL SELECTION IN BC!
https://www.ultimatetools.ca/
604.291.9663

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2019, 12:25 PM »
Thank you Dan  [thumbs up]

Just for Canadians that are wondering, Woodpecker Tools website charge $85 for shipping that jig alone. A one method shipment  [eek]

On top of it you get to pay sales taxes (province depending) + duties.
Mario

Offline Curt Boyer

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Re: Woodpecker Quality and price???
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2019, 09:21 PM »
The woodpeckers kit is less than half the price of Festool plus the extra rails are less expensive. Plus the woodpeckers screws adjust from the top which is easier to access than the Festool which is accessed from the side.
Cheers
Curt