Author Topic: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)  (Read 15421 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store



Order the Woodpeckers OneTIME Tool MFT Square

$69.99

Woodpeckers newest OneTime Tool, the MFT Layout & Assembly Square enables quick and accurate setup of your Festool MFT table and enhances layout and assembly tasks. Specifically designed for setting perpendicularity between the Festool MFT fence and guide, the added MFT Positioning Dogs ensure alignment of your MFT rail or fence with the dog holes; inline at 90° or at 45°.

Act Now, Order Deadline Is Monday, January 29, 2018!

In addition to taming your MFT table the versatility of the Woodpeckers MFT Layout and Assembly Squares’ makes it a valuable addition throughout your shop. It is keenly adept at keeping large panels held firmly in place; ensuring perpendicular during dry fits and glue ups on cabinetry and other large projects.

It excels at setting 45°and 90°angles on your table or miter saw. If you have an 18” bandsaw, you can square the table to the blade with the square standing upright on its 3/4" wide leg, leaving your hands free to adjust and set stops. And wood glue is a breeze to clean off the phenolic surface, wet or dry. When not in use, the large clamping slots keep it hanging conveniently nearby on your shop wall.

And being machined from a single slab of American made phenolic, this tool is virtually indestructible. Drop it, hit it or soak it in water and it’ll still be rock solid and perfectly accurate.

Order the Woodpeckers OneTIME Tool MFT Square

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:10 AM by Shane Holland »
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline ishmerc

  • Posts: 100
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 12:34 AM »
That's not a bad price compare to other ones time tool .

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 182
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 01:14 AM »
Hmmm, why the relieved corners? Kind of tough to gauge the accuracy of something short (like a 210mm saw blade sticking up through a table) when a chunk of the face of the thing you're registering off of is missing.

And no mention of its accuracy or whether it features a lifetime guarantee (like other WP's gear).

Is more info forthcoming?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:47 AM by TinyShop »

Online Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2359
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 05:29 AM »
I guess this one time tool is a cheaper alternative to the aluminum MFT square hanging off the side of my MFT.

Perhaps, sharp thin corners of a phenolic item would be more likely to mush if dropped or banged into something. The blunt corners would seem to be more durable.

In looking at this new square, I’m even happier with my old WP MFT square and my WP framing square. They both work well in my shop.
Birdhunter

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 08:32 AM »
The 5 months is probably lead-time for sheet stock.  Then they probably won’t start running these until all can be done in one setup.  Don’t forget about inspection time.

One place I worked had a dedicated model shop that could turn out one-off and prototype products very in a matter of weeks.  Other places I’ve worked need several months just to schedule a machine to run one prototype.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 247
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 08:44 AM »
Is this item more for the convenience crowd? Currently using @Peter Halle video using dogs. I take the fence off and use it as a spacer and align the rail to a set of dogs so as to not cut into the dog holes. Then once that's locked in I do the fence to another set of dogs. It isn't the most convenient but it works. The price isn't terrible when you factor in shipping costs of the Anderson Plywood unit. Although once you've setup a perfectly square MFT you could just cut your own 'square' out of thick plywood/MDF.

Offline buckeyeguy

  • Posts: 31
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 09:33 AM »
And no mention of its accuracy or whether it features a lifetime guarantee (like other WP's gear).

I called Woodpeckers directly this morning with the same questions. As of right now, they are guaranteeing .0085" per foot accuracy. The person I spoke with actually went out and talked with someone else to get the answer. She did say that they are still deciding on what machine they will be using to cut the square, so by actual production day, accuracy could be increased, but it is going to be at least .0085"/ft.

I also inquired about the lifetime warranty. This is backed by the lifetime guarantee for accuracy as long as it there doesn't appear to be user damage (i.e. running through the saw, fire). She did state all of their Woodpecker branded items are backed by the lifetime guarantee.

Lastly I asked if it was possible to purchase extra dogs in surplus to the two shown included. As of right now, there is no way to purchase extra.

As someone who does not own the larger MFT square, and factoring in the two extra dogs, this seems like a fair price for what it is.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 10:06 AM »
8.5/1000" accuracy per foot is garbage.

It looks like you're mixing units. Woodpeckers' accuracy is 0.0085" over a foot, or 0.04 degrees by my calcs.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 10:30 AM »
Something is way off if 8.5/1000" per ft is the Woodpeckers' rating. If they can cut their aluminum squares to 1/1000" per ft then phenolic should be not different. Maybe they plan on using the red-headed step child CNC for this OTT.

Maybe they don’t want to grind it?

I have no idea how phenolic behaves when machining.  I’m going to take a guess that it’s close to machining aluminum, easy to cut and a bit ‘gummy’.

I got the same answer as Shane:  0.0085” (aka 8.5 thousandths) deviation across 12” is 0.04 degrees.  If my math is correct, that could translate to 0.030” deviation across a 42.5” span [1080 guide rail].

Offline mike_aa

  • Posts: 1052
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 10:39 AM »
And no mention of its accuracy or whether it features a lifetime guarantee (like other WP's gear).

I called Woodpeckers directly this morning with the same questions. As of right now, they are guaranteeing .0085" per foot accuracy. The person I spoke with actually went out and talked with someone else to get the answer. She did say that they are still deciding on what machine they will be using to cut the square, so by actual production day, accuracy could be increased, but it is going to be at least .0085"/ft.

I also inquired about the lifetime warranty. This is backed by the lifetime guarantee for accuracy as long as it there doesn't appear to be user damage (i.e. running through the saw, fire). She did state all of their Woodpecker branded items are backed by the lifetime guarantee.

Lastly I asked if it was possible to purchase extra dogs in surplus to the two shown included. As of right now, there is no way to purchase extra.

As someone who does not own the larger MFT square, and factoring in the two extra dogs, this seems like a fair price for what it is.

@rmh  and  @Zeusman

What will the accuracy be for the new square?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 10:51 AM »
I think while they said .0085" per foot, I think they actually meant to say .0085º instead.

All of the rest of their machined items have been advertised to be within .0010" to .0015" or LESS per foot.

Using .0085" means this is 8.5 times less accurate than their previous offerings.

EDIT: I just checked the paperwork I received with my Woodpecker Model 6S Carpenters square and it reads accurate to .0085º.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:59 PM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 11:47 AM »
That's not a bad price compare to other ones time tool .

A lot of the price difference is the cost of the phenolic versus the cost of the cast aluminum tooling plate they use in their other tools.

The MIC 6 or ALCA 5 cast aluminum tooling plate is 2x-3X the cost of phenolic. 

Offline Woodtech28

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 12:02 PM »
Hey Everyone, I just want to clear things up a bit...  This is Ed from Woodpeckers and this is my tool. 

First: The accuracy statement.
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot.  Typically, the metal squares run much truer than that, but that is the max tolerance.

The MFT Layout & Assembly tool:
In the prototype stages, the MFT Layout & Assembly Square is right there, running about .008 to .009 “Degrees” over the 15” length. 

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 12:14 PM »
In the prototype stages, the MFT Layout & Assembly Square is right there, running about .008 to .009 “Degrees” over the 15” length.

Good to hear...thanks for weighing in.  [smile]

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 12:34 PM »
...

First: The accuracy statement.
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot.  Typically, the metal squares run much truer than that, but that is the max tolerance.

...

What about the position of the dog holes with respect to the edges?  Hopefully +\- 0.005” or better.

Offline buckeyeguy

  • Posts: 31
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 12:53 PM »
Hey Everyone, I just want to clear things up a bit...  This is Ed from Woodpeckers and this is my tool. 

First: The accuracy statement.
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot.  Typically, the metal squares run much truer than that, but that is the max tolerance.

Well, I guess my credibility just took a hit on here [big grin]

Since it was a new tool offering the person I talked to (who was very pleasant to talk to) wasn't sure of the specifics yet and had to put me on hold to ask. I took the "8 and a half thousandths per foot" as inches and not degrees. My bad. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for clearing that up!

A couple of questions for anybody here.

In general, does phenolic material have any tendencies to warp due to heat in the .75" thicknesses? When I refer to heat, I am referring to an non air-conditioned garage which can get quite hot in the summer months.

Also, is phenolic material resistant to wood glue such as the Titebonds (I, II, III)?

Offline promark747

  • Posts: 459
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 12:56 PM »
Hey Everyone, I just want to clear things up a bit...  This is Ed from Woodpeckers and this is my tool. 

First: The accuracy statement.
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot.  Typically, the metal squares run much truer than that, but that is the max tolerance.

The MFT Layout & Assembly tool:
In the prototype stages, the MFT Layout & Assembly Square is right there, running about .008 to .009 “Degrees” over the 15” length.

Thanks Ed.  Would you say the better accuracy for the metal squares is due to the material itself or additional machining (grinding, etc)?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1532
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 01:47 PM »
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot. 
If this is degree, than why "per foot"? It's either deviation per distance (for example, inch per foot), or simply angle (deg.)

Offline tomp

  • Posts: 48
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 02:08 PM »
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot. 
If this is degree, than why "per foot"? It's either deviation per distance (for example, inch per foot), or simply angle (deg.)

Agreed. It's either made within an accuracy of .0085° or with a deviation of .0085" per foot. The total error would be based on the length of the part - at .0085"/per foot, the error would be .017" for a 2' part, .0255" for a 3' part and so on. Degrees per foot is meaningless. BTW, an accuracy of .0085° would give an error of .0036" at a length of 24" - pretty accurate I would say.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3664
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 02:18 PM »
My concern is that it's only 3/4" thick.  If you're working with 3/4" material, you have to lower the rail to calibrate it, but in raising the rail to accommodate the 3/4" (or 18mm, or 19mm, or whatever) material, the act of releasing the rail clamp and resetting it to a different height is likely to induce an error, however minor.  If Woodpeckers had chosen to make it thicker, say 1-1/8" (like the original MFT square), one could zero the rail and not be concerned about errors induced by raising and/or lowering the rail once it's been zeroed.  This rather makes the argument about "the '.0085" is .0085 degrees per foot'" insignificant.
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Woodtech28

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 03:02 PM »
A couple of questions for anybody here.

In general, does phenolic material have any tendencies to warp due to heat in the .75" thicknesses? When I refer to heat, I am referring to an non air-conditioned garage which can get quite hot in the summer months.
 

Also, is phenolic material resistant to wood glue such as the Titebonds (I, II, III)?
[/quote]

I have had my Woodpeckers router table for years in my unconditioned shop here in NE Ohio, as well as my coping sleds, and have not had an issue in either the summer heat or winter cold, and unfortunately have used them in both extremes.

I put woodglue (I & II, didn't have any III around at the time) and it cleaned off very easily, both wet and dry.

Ed (Woodpeckers)


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 03:21 PM »

I put woodglue (I & II, didn't have any III around at the time) and it cleaned off very easily, both wet and dry.

Ed (Woodpeckers)

That’s one of the reasons you used this material for your clamping cauls, correct?

Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 190
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 03:56 PM »
Seems to me that the pattern of holes, by design, give you 90/45 deg layout when using a rail with rail dogs. In that sense, a square would not be needed at all.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3664
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 05:22 PM »
Seems to me that the pattern of holes, by design, give you 90/45 deg layout when using a rail with rail dogs. In that sense, a square would not be needed at all.

You are correct.  It will do just that.  However, it aligns the rail such that the cut line crosses the 20mm system holes, leaving a small portion of the material being cut unsupported.  The cut line further weakens the MFT top in that area.  Ideally, the cut line crosses the MFT top between the 20mm holes.  Also, you will need to relocate the feather keys that Festool has ever so kindly placed for your benefit. 
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1532
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2018, 05:53 PM »
Seems to me that the pattern of holes, by design, give you 90/45 deg layout when using a rail with rail dogs. In that sense, a square would not be needed at all.
You are correct.  It will do just that.  However, it aligns the rail such that the cut line crosses the 20mm system holes, leaving a small portion of the material being cut unsupported. 
Just use some spacers between dogs and guide rail. A peace of aluminum extrusion, for example, a couple of identical blocks, etc.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2018, 10:28 PM »
Ed,

Thanks for taking the time to stop by the forum today to answer questions from the forum members and potential buyers of your well-designed MFT squaring solution. It's fantastic for us to have insight and information directly from the product's designer.

Shane
The Tool Nut

@Woodtech28
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2018, 11:40 PM »
Hey Everyone, I just want to clear things up a bit...  This is Ed from Woodpeckers and this is my tool. 

First: The accuracy statement.
This is for degrees, so the ".0085" is .0085 degrees per foot. 

As others have asked, what does this really mean?  Taken literally, 0.0085deg/foot * 1.5' = 0.0128deg.  But degrees/foot is really strange, as it would imply some kind of spiral (increasing curvature with distance). 
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2018, 12:41 AM »
As others have asked, what does this really mean?  Taken literally, 0.0085deg/foot * 1.5' = 0.0128deg.  But degrees/foot is really strange, as it would imply some kind of spiral (increasing curvature with distance).

I think the statement .0085 degrees per foot is just a misnomer on Woodpeckers part. If you take a look at the advertised perpendicularity specifications for other Woodpeckers products, you’ll see they reference .0085 degrees without adding the “ per foot” moniker.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2018, 09:23 AM »
I think the statement .0085 degrees per foot is just a misnomer on Woodpeckers part. If you take a look at the advertised perpendicularity specifications for other Woodpeckers products, you’ll see they reference .0085 degrees without adding the “ per foot” moniker.

Perhaps.

Could be related to the inspection method:  deviation of up to 0.0085 degrees as measured at 12 inches or across 12 inches.

Offline Woodtech28

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2018, 01:17 PM »

I put woodglue (I & II, didn't have any III around at the time) and it cleaned off very easily, both wet and dry.

Ed (Woodpeckers)

That’s one of the reasons you used this material for your clamping cauls, correct?
You are correct!
Ed - Woodpeckers

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 02:17 PM »
Bump. Only a few days left to get in on this one if you're interested. Order deadline is Monday, the 29th.

Order the Woodpeckers OneTIME Tool MFT Square

« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 02:46 PM by Shane Holland »
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 02:46 PM »
Monday the 29th, 12 days left.

Whoops...  [embarassed] Yes, *that* Monday.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline Welshdog

  • Posts: 48
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2018, 01:10 AM »
Hey Everyone, I just want to clear things up a bit...  This is Ed from Woodpeckers and this is my tool. 

Hi Ed, don't know if the tool design is "locked" at this point, but I have a suggestion. As several people have pointed out, it would be nice if there was a way to have the square be more than 3/4" thick. This of course was a feature of the Woodpecker MFT square - which was much more expensive than this tool.  How about some sort of phenolic or aluminum bushings/dogs that could be fit into the holes, thus raising it off the work surface?  This could be an optional add-on.

Regardless, I'll be buying one of these tools. It seems to have a lot of uses beyond setting up the MFT.  Thanks for creating a nice tool.
DF 500, RO125, MFT/3, ATF55e, OF1400, CT36, Syslite, Pro 5

Online Roseland

  • Posts: 577
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 02:48 AM »
Degrees per foot sounds to me as if they expect the phenolic to warp, and the supposedly flat reference faces to not be truly flat.

So measured close to a corner the error would be much less than further from the corner where the warp has had distance to build up.

I'm not explaining this well, but I hope you understand what I mean!

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2018, 07:17 PM »
Tomorrow is the last chance to get in on this one if you're interested. Order deadline is Monday, the 29th.

Order the Woodpeckers OneTIME Tool MFT Square

« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 08:10 PM by Shane Holland »
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline JerseyDan

  • Posts: 4
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2018, 12:15 PM »
Hey guys...  long time reader, first time poster. Please forgive me if this was discussed already, but I'm looking for some input before pulling the trigger on one of these knowing the deadline is today.

Would you go with this or the WP 12" precision square? 

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 247
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2018, 12:26 PM »
Instead of buying this one trick pony if only using to setup the MFT. .wouldn't it be better to buy a parallel TSO guide rail square? Attach to your rail, butt up against the fence and adjust. Sure it's more expensive but also extremely more useful.

I don't have either so I'm genuinely curious.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Re: Woodpeckers OneTime Tool - Festool MFT Layout & Assembly Square (US)
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2018, 12:41 PM »
Instead of buying this one trick pony if only using to setup the MFT. .wouldn't it be better to buy a parallel guide rail square? Attach to your rail, butt up against the fence and adjust. Sure it's more expensive but also extremely more useful.

There are plenty of squares out there. While the Insta-RailSquare does a great job at letting you get perpendicular cuts quickly and easily, it's a purpose built tool. It could be used for MFT alignment especially when used with the optional Insta dogs since you could use the MFT hole grid as a reference for the fence and rail. For the best deal, you can buy the Insta-RailSquare and dogs as a kit to save about $10.

The Woodpeckers OTT MFT square is going to be a thicker and longer square to give a more surface to reference off of. It's not a one-trick pony since it could be used for any squaring task, although there are features that help with MFT squaring.

The Woodpeckers 1281 could also definitely be used for squaring an MFT and includes a scale, unlike the OneTime Tool MFT Square.

I'm sure some of the forum members will give their insights and opinions.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 01:27 PM by Shane Holland »
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline reible

  • Posts: 4
I'm wondering who else that ordered has received theirs and if so are you seeing issues......... I have and yes I'm seeing "issues".

Mine came the day before yesterday and yesterday I had it out on my MFT to check it out.  The square portion worked fine, or shall I say good enough for me.

The issues seems to be that while the dogs fit the square and fit the table  a hole at a time when you try to add the second dog it will only fit some places.  A few places you can twist it in and well then getting the dog back out is difficult..... but places you simply can not get the second dog to fit, you can see the interference when looking through the square at the hole.

I have an original Festool top on my MFT-3, so I expected the square to fit anywhere, this is not the case.  I have contacted Woodpecker but have not heard back from them.  I'm wondering if my table top is out of wack or if the square is out of wack or is the design have a flaw such that not all tables and squares work together.

I have the green Anderson square and it works fine but was looking forward to having the dog holes and what they bring to the table, as it is not much..........

Love to hear others experiences.

Ed

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2514
I seem to recall reading on dog sizes that holes are meant to be bored to within a tenth of a millimeter and they do vary.  I don’t thin FT has any assurance of complete accuracy across the grid, but I have seen tighter holes when using the TSO triangle, but nothing to prevent insertion. 


Could be moisture in the top as well.  You could use a little sandpaper on a dowel to do a slight adjustment if there are particular holes that don’t quite align with ease. 




Offline sprior

  • Posts: 411
I received mine today, haven't taken it down to the shop yet, but I did notice the dog holes have a little play in them and while the two long perpendicular edges are smooth, the hypotenuse edge has saw marks.  Also the small relief corner between the perpenduicular faces has CNC tool marks.

I sent them an email asking if they consider this to be within spec.

Steve

Offline sprior

  • Posts: 411
I noticed that the dog holes have a lot of play in them compared to the ones in the MFT - both Qwas dogs and the Woodpecker provided ones felt loose in the square.  Enough slack that I'd be hesitant to use them as an angle reference. 

I also got a reply today from Woodpeckers saying that while they tried to minimize the saw marks in the hypotenuse side of the square they were not able to remove them all and consider it within spec.

This is the first Woodpeckers tool I'm a bit disappointed with the quality of, though I'll keep it since the primary reason I bought it was for squaring the MFT.

Offline reible

  • Posts: 4
Woodpecker got back to me.  They will pull a square then try it on the 3 MFT's they have and have it looked at optically.  If it passes then they will ship it to me for my testing.  Seems reasonable.  Having two to compare should tell me if they will work for what I hoped for or not.  I can always return them if not.

The apparent slop in the square's holes are how I think they take care of the inconsistencies that occur in MFT's.  What effect that has on using to square to the holes is something I don't know.  I did use it to verify my table settings after checking that with the Anderson square and that seemed right on.  When the new one arrives I will see how it does using the holes to get a square setup.  Mine MFT seems to hold alignment but I like to check it before starting to use it.  I'm not looking for thousands of an inch here but I still want it to be reasonable for woodworking.

They said it will take several days for it to be checked out and shipped so perhaps some time next week??

Ed

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5271
  • Does Anyone Know What Time It Is?
I got the Anderson Ply square. After squaring my MFT with it, I double checked the MFT using my WP 45CM square and got the exact same results. Its simular to the WP Layout Square and cost about a 3rd of the price.

It has holes in it for using the festool clamps for clamping down on the MFT never used them as I use this square for setting up my MFT.

Offline CBRacerX

  • Posts: 12
I got the Anderson Ply square. After squaring my MFT with it, I double checked the MFT using my WP 45CM square and got the exact same results. Its simular to the WP Layout Square and cost about a 3rd of the price.

It has holes in it for using the festool clamps for clamping down on the MFT never used them as I use this square for setting up my MFT.

They just sold another one...

Offline Mike Upstate

  • Posts: 11
Shane,

Any update on delivery/order status of this item,  see that Woodpeckers web site indictes they are now shipping.  The Tool-Nut order status shows no update and customer service is unavailable due to high call volume.

Thanks

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
@Mike Upstate, I have been told that Woodpeckers expects to ship inventory to us in mid-June. I am contacting them to ask why their website states shipping now when we're a month away from getting inventory. I'll keep you posted if I get any other information.

Shane
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
... Woodpeckers expects to ship inventory to us in mid-June ...

If I recall correctly, early May was the delivery timeframe when I placed my order.  Hopefully you can get some better info for us.

Offline BadRobot

  • Posts: 47
... Woodpeckers expects to ship inventory to us in mid-June ...

If I recall correctly, early May was the delivery timeframe when I placed my order.  Hopefully you can get some better info for us.


I received it by the end of April.

Offline ProCarpenterRVA

  • Posts: 76
I got mine last week. Very thick, solid, accurate square and of course, the red anodized dogs. Great buy!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Guys, I did reach out to Woodpeckers and found that there's a pretty long window for shipment on these, and they are running late shipping them.

I asked where our order was in the queue and was told that we are among the very first that they ship OneTime Tools to. When we receive OneTime Tool orders from Woodpeckers we turn them around to our customers usually the next day.

That said, I suspect they ship to folks that buy direct first. It's always hard to compete against a manufacturer that sell direct for reasons like this. It may mean we lose your order in the future, but I hope that's not the case. The reality is that OneTime Tools are something you'll have to wait many months to receive. And, there are times that, due to unforeseen manufacturing complications, there are delays.

If you're in a hurry for such a tool, it may be best to find one something that's not made-to-order.

We appreciate everyone who chooses to order from us. You help support me and my family, so thank you.  [not worthy]
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
I received mine about a month ago, it’s very nice and robust...definitely worth the wait. Sometimes this OTT thing works out when referencing the time line, sometimes not. I’m still waiting for the 20mm hole boring jig that I ordered directly from Woodpeckers and was supposed to ship in February.

I also received in March, some other items that weren’t supposed to ship until May. Oh well, it is what it is.   [big grin]

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
I ordered the MFT Square from The Tool Nut around the end of January.  While I did not expect to receive mine in early May, I certainly did not anticipate mid to late June.

I understand that problems arise in a production environment.  What I do not like is the lack of communication.  That falls on both The Tool Nut (not Shane) and Woodpeckers.

Offline ProCarpenterRVA

  • Posts: 76
I received mine about a month ago, it’s very nice and robust...definitely worth the wait. Sometimes this OTT thing works out when referencing the time line, sometimes not. I’m still waiting for the 20mm hole boring jig that I ordered directly from Woodpeckers and was supposed to ship in February.

I also received in March, some other items that weren’t supposed to ship until May. Oh well, it is what it is.   [big grin]
I'm jonesin' for that hole drilling jig. I love making mft slabs[emoji39]

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
I understand that problems arise in a production environment.  What I do not like is the lack of communication.  That falls on both The Tool Nut (not Shane) and Woodpeckers.

@RustE, I completely agree. That was precisely one of the points in my email to them. That, if they determine there will be delays, that we need timely notification. With that information, we will be able to inform our customers of the delay. There were several other points of feedback that I gave that will hopefully improve things that I don't think need to be shared.

Shane
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline scary

  • Posts: 27
"Sometime" tools?

Too soon?

Offline Mike Upstate

  • Posts: 11
Shane,
 
  This will is my fourth "one-time" tool order,  but it will be my last. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 09:38 PM by Mike Upstate »

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Just to keep things interesting:

I received the Woodpecker’s OneTime Edge Tool Sharpening Guide this week.  My order was placed with Festool Products in early March.

Still no news on the MFT Layout & Assembly Square that I ordered in late January.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 437
If my eyes did not deceive me, I saw two MFT square on the shelf at Woodcraft in Allentown PA.

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 145
Have to start calling them "whenever" tools. Over the last 10 years I have NEVER gotten one on time, and the schedule seems to be slipping more each year.

No fault of the Tool Nut. I use them for these tools because of the free shipping.

With all that said - when I do decide to order one of these I know all this in advance - so there's no reason to get anxious or angry over the delays. If something is compelling enough to order, and not available competitively elsewhere it's a choice whether to put up with woodpeckers schedule and high prices. Kind of like buying Festool and then griping about it. Caveat Emptor!

Is is what it is, and out of my control.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 142
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Regards:
Woodpeckers' "ONE TIME TOOLS" versus "Whenever Tools".
It's hard to understand how a tool company making PRECISION tools -
Can't keep a FIXED production schedule on ORDERS MADE MONTHS IN ADVANCE.
Last year - When I ordered a WP's "ONE TIME TOOL" - The scheduled date of delivery passed by nearly a month.
So I called 'em - And complained - Saying: "If you can't deliver it - Cancel my $300+ order".
After listening to their excuses about suppliers not delivering materials to make the product - I repeated my "deliver or cancel my order" edict.
That was in the late afternoon (EST - Their time).
Interestingly... Somehow... My completed order arrived the next afternoon.
As my Dad used to say: "Who they tryin’ to fool?"

WP's makes excellent products. I have many of them.
And... I probably/maybe will order another ONE TIME TOOL in the future.
TRUST Woodpeckers as a company? Nada. Nope. Not any more.

At some point - Another company will begin to compete with Woodpeckers.
It almost always happens sooner or later.
Old business saying: "Ignore your customers - They'll go away."
My own addendum: Lie to ‘em - And they’ll run from your business -
“Bad mouthin’ ya” to everybody as they go.

As a caveat - This is about Woodpeckers' ongoing poor business practices.
I, nor I doubt anyone else, has anything but good to say about Shane or The Tool Nut.
My experience has always been that you:
Do what your say your going to do - Are customer oriented - And go out of your way to: "Get it right - Make it right".
You do your best to make up for the failures of your suppliers.
Kudos to you and your team.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 05:32 PM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline ProCarpenterRVA

  • Posts: 76
I thought I'd chime in on the One Time Tool thing. Just my thoughts and opinion based on recent experiences over the last year.

I have bought quite a few one time tools over the past year. Some come early, some come late. I don't stress over it because I know that it's going to be made and it'll be a good tool.

Woodpeckers sells a ton of the One Time tool orders. They have a niche market that delivers high quality products for discerning crafts people. These people are willing to work with their schedule because they are getting something that isn't available elsewhere.

Woodpeckers business model for this program is a good way for them to keep inventory at a minimum and offer more products than they would otherwise given their size.

My guess would be that Woodpeckers uses subcontractors for some phases, and that they do have supply chain problems just like I do in my business. Also, I would guess that the earlier you order your tool in the marketing cycle, the sooner you get it when they begin production. That has been the pattern for the delivery of my tools. I am sure that they are very helpful and willing to give some on the delivery if you call and complain,  they're just trying to keep people happy. I doubt that they are trying to mislead or lie to anyone. They're trying to make the stuff and get it out the door!

Lastly, given the current tariff issue for steel and aluminum, they may be facing pressure in the market for raw materials both in cost and availability...

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065

1. My guess would be that Woodpeckers uses subcontractors for some phases, and that they do have supply chain problems just like I do in my business.

2. Also, I would guess that the earlier you order your tool in the marketing cycle, the sooner you get it when they begin production. That has been the pattern for the delivery of my tools. I am sure that they are very helpful and willing to give some on the delivery if you call and complain,  they're just trying to keep people happy. I doubt that they are trying to mislead or lie to anyone. They're trying to make the stuff and get it out the door!

3. Lastly, given the current tariff issue for steel and aluminum, they may be facing pressure in the market for raw materials both in cost and availability...


1. I've talked with several of the designers and also the owner of Woodpeckers. According to them, everything is done in-house except for the anodizing. They have had issues with the anodizer.

2. I also confirmed the FIFO purchase/ship issue with them.

3. This new tariff issue will be effecting us more and more. Got this note from Starrett just yesterday.


June 1, 2018

Subject: Section 232 Steel Tariffs – June 1, 2018 – Imported Steel
Re: June 8th Effective Surcharge Ground Flat Stock and Drill Rod

The U. S. Government has imposed a 25% duty on steel imported from the European Union effective June 1, 2018. This action will have a significant impact to our cost and, as a result, we will implement an immediate material(s) surcharge.

Without additional notice or exception, effective with the start of business June 8, 2018, The Company shall add a surcharge to all ground flat stock and drill rod of: 10%.

We appreciate your understanding during this unsettled period and we thank you for your continued business.

The L.S. Starrett Company
121 Crescent Street | Athol, MA 01331 - USA
Phone: (978) 249-3551 | Fax: (978) 249-8495

Offline Mike Upstate

  • Posts: 11
 Just cancelled and requesred a refund to my Paypal account.  Customer service at Tool-Nut was accomodating, though insisted that Woodpeckers has not released the tool to any purchasers.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Just cancelled and requesred a refund to my Paypal account.  Customer service at Tool-Nut was accomodating, though insisted that Woodpeckers has not released the tool to any purchasers.

I would interpret that as none of the ToolNut purchasers have received their order.  The folks at Woodpeckers are shipping orders now that their production issues are mostly resolved.  As previously mentioned they are following the first in, first out philosophy.  What I do not know is if the ToolNut purchasers are in a group near the very end of that list.

Like you, I am growing tired of my money being out on an interest-free loan.  Really tempted to grab an Anderson Plywood square from Amazon for $30/shipped.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633
[

Snipe

June 1, 2018

Subject: Section 232 Steel Tariffs – June 1, 2018 – Imported Steel
Re: June 8th Effective Surcharge Ground Flat Stock and Drill Rod

The U. S. Government has imposed a 25% duty on steel imported from the European Union effective June 1, 2018. This action will have a significant impact to our cost and, as a result, we will implement an immediate material(s) surcharge.
.



We Canucks got hit by the tariffs as well, not just EU and we supply more steel and aluminum than any others. So expect the steel product prices to go all up across the board. If the proposed tariffs on autos materialize, vehicles will get more pricey, too.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633

Snipe
WP's makes excellent products. I have many of them.
And... I probably/maybe will order another ONE TIME TOOL in the future.
TRUST Woodpeckers as a company? Nada. Nope. Not any more.


I have had no experience with WP and so my comment is not about that company. I will not deal with a vendor if it has proved to be distrustful regardless of the quality of the products it sells.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
What I do not know is if the ToolNut purchasers are in a group near the very end of that list.

I think I may have mentioned this before but don't mind sharing it again.

Woodpeckers ships to their own customers first since they are the manufacturer. I have asked several times and have been consistently told that we are shipping products as soon as they finish production for their own customers and are among the first to get OneTime Tools.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 145
To repeat myself.

Ordering one time tools through The Tool Nut gets me free shipping.
Ordering from woodpeckers I pay shipping, but get the tool a little earlier.

After waiting 3-6 months for a tool a few extra weeks is worth the trade-off to me. We don't order one-time tools because they are something we urgently need for a project or a job.

These are luxuries we indulge ourselves with. Why all the anxiety?
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 633


These are luxuries we indulge ourselves with. Why all the anxiety?

As I see it, the root of the "delay" problem is due to the business model in which a manufacturer sells direct to customers as well as through dealers AND then delivers the finished goods to the direct customers first. Perhaps this is why a dealer offers free shipping as a means to compensate for the "delay".

Those who can't wait have the free option to pay a higher price for an earlier delivery. That is no different from me paying a top-tier courier fee when I want something delivered the next day overseas.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
@Shane Holland - Any news on the timing for this thing?

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
@Shane Holland - Any news on the timing for this thing?

@RustE, we are shipping these today and tomorrow. We just received inventory yesterday. You will receive tracking info shortly for your order.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline nostoct

  • Posts: 5
@shane holland

Does Tool Nut have any extra of these due to canceled orders or otherwise? I missed the deadline but would like to pick one up.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
@nostoct, I'll check and send you a PM once I know. It'll be tomorrow morning before I have an answer.

Shane
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Mine arrived today.  I have nothing good to say about the initial appearance.

281142-0  281144-1

Looks like the folks at ToolNut grabbed the Woodpeckers box, slapped a label on it, and sent it on the way.  The square somehow survived shipping as I could not find any visible impact damage.

The machining around the perimeter of the square is not very clean with both visible and tactile marks.  I can tolerate these in the relief areas but not along the primary three edges.


Offline mrgeigh

  • Posts: 8
Please don't blame the Tool Nut for the condition of your package upon delivery. Mine showed up the same way. Woodpeckers could do a better job at packaging but it's the savages at the US postal service and UPS that do the damage. Everything I order that goes through the postal service comes mangled. No wonder it's another government entity that costs us money to run.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
...Woodpeckers could do a better job at packaging but it's the savages at the US postal service and UPS that do the damage....

No disagreement on the shipping savages.

However, the white box that you see is meant for retail display and not for shipping.

Offline Shane Holland

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 10497
    • The Tool Nut's Festool Store
Guys, if you're shipment is damaged, please let me know and I'll get a replacement sent out. Also, I'll be sure that evaluate to make sure that packaging is adequate to prevent damage in transit. As was mentioned, the delivery folks aren't always gentle.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img
Fast, Free Shipping - Festool Trained Experts - Unparalleled Customer Service
Toolnut.com and FestoolProducts.com

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
If I remember correctly, as it’s been a couple of months, I received my square from Woodpeckers in the white box which was inside of a brown box with folded paper for cushioning.

I checked the machined edges of mine and they’re all pretty smooth, probably a 63/32 finish except for a spot about 1/2” long which was about 125.

Photo 1. The one poor spot.

Photo 2. All the rest of the machined edges.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Looking down one of the legs to the relief corner.  The other leg is very clean and smooth.  I am not sure why Woodpeckers chose to have the machine change speeds at this location.

281152-0

Looking at the hypotenuse (longest edge).  The first was taken in the middle and the second was taken towards an end.

281154-1    281156-2

From a realistic perspective, only one edge of this square is a good quality reference surface.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
Just a brief update:  Woodpeckers confirmed that their boxes are meant for retail and not for direct shipping.  I was also told that the MFT square I received is above average quality per the designer's standard.  Really disappointed in the outcome of this deal.



Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 649
I was also told that the MFT square I received is above average quality per the designer's standard.

They consider the one you got to be above average quality?!  That's pathetic.  The average quality must look atrocious then.  The designer really should up their standard - in actuality shouldn't they all be the same??
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

TS55, CT26, RO150, CXS, ETS 150/3, ETS EC 150/5, MFT/3, TS75, DF500, DTS400, OF1400, CT SYS

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
... in actuality shouldn't they all be the same??

Ideally, all of these should look the same (visual standard) and have three quality reference surfaces (dimensional standard).

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 145
Got my square last week, and there is noticeable slop between the dogs and the square. The dogs have a nice interference fit in my mft, but once there you can rock the square quite a bit in all directions due to the play between the square itself and the dogs.

Is this by design?

I don't plan on using it with the dogs, but it sure doesn't seem like you could get consistent accuracy with this setup.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
Got my square last week, and there is noticeable slop between the dogs and the square. The dogs have a nice interference fit in my mft, but once there you can rock the square quite a bit in all directions due to the play between the square itself and the dogs.

Is this by design?

I don't plan on using it with the dogs, but it sure doesn't seem like you could get consistent accuracy with this setup.

How well do the Woodpeckers dogs fit in the holes of the Woodpeckers MFT square?

Have you checked the squareness of the Woodpeckers MFT square against a known standard?

Have you checked the squareness of your Festool MFT against a known standard?
 
I talked with Ed the designer of the MFT square and he told me he placed 2 old Festool MFT tops and 1 new Festool MFT top on their vision system and all 3 tops were "out quite a bit".


Offline Welshdog

  • Posts: 48
My layout square and dogs have the same issue - slop.  the square is square, but using the dogs it is loose. I even bought extra dogs and they are loose in any MFT hole I place them in. My Qwas dogs fit with almost no movement.  If I use the Qwas dogs on the square, it fits better, but is still pretty loose. Not sure yet if this really matters to me - depends on how I end up using the square for setup I guess.
DF 500, RO125, MFT/3, ATF55e, OF1400, CT36, Syslite, Pro 5

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
The square is square, but using the dogs it is loose. I even bought extra dogs and they are loose in any MFT hole I place them in. My Qwas dogs fit with almost no movement.  If I use the Qwas dogs on the square, it fits better, but is still pretty loose. Not sure yet if this really matters to me - depends on how I end up using the square for setup I guess.

Have you measured the squareness of your MFT hole pattern using a known standard?

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 145
My previous post says it all. The square is square. The dogs fit the mft table appropriately. I'm not talking about how well this fits an mft.

The dogs do NOT fit the square appropriately. They are very loose (I didn't measure the slop, nor will I). If you insert the Woodpeckers dogs in the Woodpeckers square they rattle significantly, thus when you install the square to an mft the square moves on it's own dogs while the dogs are nice and snug in the mft.
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3573
If you have a round pin (dog) you might find a round hole it fits well. You might find a bunch of round holes it fits pretty well, especially if the holes were all cut at the same time in the same way in the same material. Like an MFT.

Even on an MFT you’ll find some holes that the pin does not fit as well.

Expecting that pin to fit a hole cut at a different time with different specs with a different tool in a different material is a setup for disappointment.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5065
The dogs do NOT fit the square appropriately. They are very loose (I didn't measure the slop, nor will I). If you insert the Woodpeckers dogs in the Woodpeckers square they rattle significantly, thus when you install the square to an mft the square moves on it's own dogs while the dogs are nice and snug in the mft.

Well I measured mine for you... [smile]  I measured at all 4 hole positions on the MFT Square and with the Woodpeckers dog, all were in the .0025 - .0035" range. I've also measured all the Woodpeckers dogs (4 of them) for another previous issue and they were all within .0005" of each other.

So, if you have that much slop that the dogs actually rattle in their bores, either the dogs are undersized, the bores are oversized or both conditions exist. I'd contact Woodpeckers and chat with them.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 12:48 PM by Cheese »

Offline Cincinnati

  • Posts: 45
We like parts to fit reasonably tight. But even if the fit is “too sloppy”, as long as all holes are the “same” size and all dogs are the “same” size the system works.

Here’s the example:

If your dogs are too small, or the holes were too big,  as long as the holes are on 96mm centers and in proper geometric registration in the MFT and in the Woodpeckers square, you can push them to one side of the holes and your fence or square will remain in registration with the hole pattern.

So pull the Woodpeckers square toward you or push it to the left, and bring the rail up to it. It will be square to the horizontal rows of holes in the MFT. this works whether you have 1/8 inch or 0.002” of “slop”.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 342
I'm going to guess that the holes in the Layout Square are sized to account for the majority of tolerances:  MFT hole sizes and positions, Dog diameters and run-out, Layout Square hole sizes and positions.

About the only way to tighten-up the design is to use long "pins" that go through both the Layout Square and the MFT simultaneously.  The holes in the Layout Square would be 20mm like the MFT and the "pins" would have a shoulder to rest on the Layout Square.
Correction:  The above paragraph is how it was designed.  I didn't have a way to check since mine is gone.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 03:21 PM by RustE »

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1723
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
I take the quality issues very seriously, but I can't get too steamed about the scheduling issues.

I know when I make the very first one of a new product, it takes a lot of time, sometimes an unpredictable "lot of time".   Suppliers contribute to that as do subcontractors, unforeseen technical issues, last minute design changes, etc.  It sometimes takes me ten times longer to make the first acceptable good one as it does the second.  The One Time Tool business model is hostage to that.  I great prefer a maker who takes the time to get it right.  I would never plan a project around the arrival of a one time tool. [unsure]