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Author Topic: Another dead Kapex.  (Read 11811 times)

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Offline ALI Construction

  • Posts: 16
Another dead Kapex.
« on: April 08, 2018, 12:03 AM »
Intro: Hi all, my 1st post here thought I've bin reading these forums for few years already.

big festool fan got lots of their stuff alrady: df500, t15 impact with all attachments, 0f1010, ts55 with all rail lengths, trion(hate it), ets125 ec (brushless, love it) ct36, ctMini, bunch of other systainers and sortainers, few router jigs, and misc attachments. also got a kapex 120, with wings.

brief description:
kapex went up in smoke (just like many stories here) i didn't even open it up, knew it was the armature gone, ordered armature and brushes same day, armature came in 4 business days later, brushes took additional 4 days cause they were on back order, but i installed the field with old brushes because i had work to do, and didn't feel like using my old dewalt (temporary saw) any longer then I had to. the whole fix time took mi less then an hour, and that included me realigning the saw with a 5 cut method. (wasn't really necessary but i check it every once in a while)


Longer detailed story:

saw was made in 2014 according to sticker on motor cover, i purchased it from a guy i knew for cash, he originally purchased it from woodcraft at a show, but never used it. he had it sitting for a year. anyways i got it brand new from him because it was still in box, in foam with a big white ziptie holding the head to the table. 2014 was not original purchase date, who knows how long its bin sitting on shelve before 1st sale, the guy just never registered it, hence we had to go by the manufactured date.

when i called festool they could not veryfy any purchase dates via SN or TN, so over the phone they told me we would have to go by manufactured date which put the saw out of warranty automatically cause that was 2014.
I have used the kapex for 2 years so far btw this is my trim/kitchen installation saw only. i frame strictly with skilsaw, and for cutting  firewood i use my old dewalt. i keep my blades cleaned regularly and sharp (had woodcraft sharpen my 2 60T few times already) also bought an 80T. always used festool blades, never any other brands. 99 % of time i run this saw thru my CT 36, never thru a generator or any unstable electricity. almost never use speed control (i don't cut metal with this saw)

so roughly 2 years, and armature pops.
since saw is out of warranty (technically) they let me order parts:
armature: ~ $160
brushes: ~ $20
+tax/shipping total came around $230

now i have a spare unopened set of brushes because my old brushes were barely used when i pulled them i measured and they had 5/8" of graphite left in open position, after new brushes came in i measured them as well and they are 3/4" of graphite as NEW.
so since my old brushes only wore 1/6th of their life I'm leaving them in there.
yes during reinstall i've sanded them down around a socket wrapped with 400 grit paper to make new clean radius (socket same diameter as armature) everything works perfectly again, no sparks smells or smoke for 1 week of every day use so far.

reason i've decided to share this story with u guys is because i feel festool should at least acknowledge they have a COMMON problem with these armatures, and at least provide armatures to us as owners free of charge, i will try to upload pics if i can, the way the old armature looks is there's no way this is wear/tear, but clearly a failed design on their end. i mean $1500 saw with only 3 years of warranty and a known time-bomb?

i've bin reading up on armatures and their failures, and this particular failure according to other sources usually happens when windings have too thin of an insulator (urethane most of the time), and during slightest heat it would short within itself making armature electrically unbalanced. again, i'm no electrical engineer, just few things i've picked up researching

I feel like I should at least order another armature just to keep on the truck as spare now? or using the old armature bracket maybe see if its possible to rig up a stronger motor to the shaft, because armature also includes the aluminum bracket and shaft has the spline that spins the 90 degree transfer to blade. aluminum bracket has 4 holes which would allow me to mount anything i rig up to that shaft to existing side mount. (very unlikely option, but possible)
after all these saws are underpowered.

TO FESTOOL: please come up with a brush-less motor for these kapexes and we will all love you for that. you guys already did it for 5" sanders, just give us a larger brushless motor and will love you guys for instant torque and instant blade break (assuming it will act similar to ets125's instant on/off)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Festool Note added by Moderator...............

  Readers should note that the instructions shown in this thread were developed solely by the writer, and without any input or approval from Festool. Anyone choosing to attempt the aforementioned repairs on their own should be aware that such an attempt will, in all likelihood, void any remaining warranty on their tool and could possibly lead to safety issues, along with other performance-related problems. Festool always recommends that repairs of this type be undertaken only by qualified technicians in a certified Festool repair facility.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 02:26 PM by ALI Construction »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 593
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 12:34 AM »
Thank you for sharing your story. I wish I had your kind of mech. skill.

Offline Green Koolaide

  • Posts: 113
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2018, 02:20 AM »
Intro: Hi all, my 1st post here thought I've bin reading these forums for few years already.

big festool fan got lots of their stuff alrady: df500, t15 impact with all attachments, 0f1010, ts55 with all rail lengths, trion(hate it), ets125 ec (brushless, love it) ct36, ctMini, bunch of other systainers and sortainers, few router jigs, and misc attachments. also got a kapex 120, with wings.

brief description:
kapex went up in smoke (just like many stories here) i didn't even open it up, knew it was the armature gone, ordered armature and brushes same day, armature came in 4 business days later, brushes took additional 4 days cause they were on back order, but i installed the field with old brushes because i had work to do, and didn't feel like using my old dewalt (temporary saw) any longer then I had to. the whole fix time took mi less then an hour, and that included me realigning the saw with a 5 cut method. (wasn't really necessary but i check it every once in a while)


Longer detailed story:

saw was made in 2014 according to sticker on motor cover, i purchased it from a guy i knew for cash, he originally purchased it from woodcraft at a show, but never used it. he had it sitting for a year. anyways i got it brand new from him because it was still in box, in foam with a big white ziptie holding the head to the table. 2014 was not original purchase date, who knows how long its bin sitting on shelve before 1st sale, the guy just never registered it, hence we had to go by the manufactured date.

when i called festool they could not veryfy any purchase dates via SN or TN, so over the phone they told me we would have to go by manufactured date which put the saw out of warranty automatically cause that was 2014.
I have used the kapex for 2 years so far btw this is my trim/kitchen installation saw only. i frame strictly with skilsaw, and for cutting  firewood i use my old dewalt. i keep my blades cleaned regularly and sharp (had woodcraft sharpen my 2 60T few times already) also bought an 80T. always used festool blades, never any other brands. 99 % of time i run this saw thru my CT 36, never thru a generator or any unstable electricity. almost never use speed control (i don't cut metal with this saw)

so roughly 2 years, and armature pops.
since saw is out of warranty (technically) they let me order parts:
armature: ~ $160
brushes: ~ $20
+tax/shipping total came around $230

now i have a spare unopened set of brushes because my old brushes were barely used when i pulled them i measured and they had 5/8" of graphite left in open position, after new brushes came in i measured them as well and they are 3/4" of graphite as NEW.
so since my old brushes only wore 1/6th of their life I'm leaving them in there.
yes during reinstall i've sanded them down around a socket wrapped with 400 grit paper to make new clean radius (socket same diameter as armature) everything works perfectly again, no sparks smells or smoke for 1 week of every day use so far.

reason i've decided to share this story with u guys is because i feel festool should at least acknowledge they have a COMMON problem with these armatures, and at least provide armatures to us as owners free of charge, i will try to upload pics if i can, the way the old armature looks is there's no way this is wear/tear, but clearly a failed design on their end. i mean $1500 saw with only 3 years of warranty and a known time-bomb?

i've bin reading up on armatures and their failures, and this particular failure according to other sources usually happens when windings have too thin of an insulator (urethane most of the time), and during slightest heat it would short within itself making armature electrically unbalanced. again, i'm no electrical engineer, just few things i've picked up researching

I feel like I should at least order another armature just to keep on the truck as spare now? or using the old armature bracket maybe see if its possible to rig up a stronger motor to the shaft, because armature also includes the aluminum bracket and shaft has the spline that spins the 90 degree transfer to blade. aluminum bracket has 4 holes which would allow me to mount anything i rig up to that shaft to existing side mount. (very unlikely option, but possible)
after all these saws are underpowered.

TO FESTOOL: please come up with a brush-less motor for these kapexes and we will all love you for that. you guys already did it for 5" sanders, just give us a larger brushless motor and will love you guys for instant torque and instant blade break (assuming it will act similar to ets125's instant on/off)
Can you describe what we are lookingat in image #3


Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

"Five out of every four people have problems with fractions"

Offline Retired Chippy

  • Posts: 50
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 02:57 AM »
Picture #3 is the backside of the whole part shown in picture #2

Offline PaulH99

  • Posts: 113
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2018, 06:37 AM »
kapex went up in smoke (just like many stories here) i didn't even open it up, knew it was the armature gone, ordered armature and brushes same day, armature came in 4 business days later, brushes took additional 4 days cause they were on back order, but i installed the field with old brushes because i had work to do, and didn't feel like using my old dewalt (temporary saw) any longer then I had to. the whole fix time took mi less then an hour, and that included me realigning the saw with a 5 cut method. (wasn't really necessary but i check it every once in a while)

Given the expense that many go through to ship their saw back to Festool for this exact repair, would you be open to the possibility of posting a video showing how you opened up the motor and put it back together again? I bet many folks on the forum would appreciate being able to repair their out-of-warranty saw for $230 and an hour of their time instead of sending it back to the service center.
-Paul
CT 26 • DF 500 • ETS 125 • KS 120 • OF 1400 • PS 420 • RO 125 • TS 55 R

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 593
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2018, 06:48 AM »
Excellent suggestion!

Perhaps Festool should do it, even if anonymously.

Offline ALI Construction

  • Posts: 16
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 09:08 AM »
Wow cool crowd here, didn’t think I’d get so many responses over night. (Eastern time zone here)

I’ll reserve this post now for later use, I’ll try to edit it later today hopefully, will take motor cover apart, and maybe a few more things, but not all the way,  because I don’t want to disturb the be top bearing ( I won’t split armature away from field winding) that’s the last step anywais, will just explain how to.

With pictures.

Online waho6o9

  • Posts: 1368
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 09:08 AM »
Thank you ALl Construction for an informative post and welcome to the FOG.

Offline PaulH99

  • Posts: 113
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 09:10 AM »
As an alternative, make a completely new post. The moderators might be able to "sticky" it to the top of the forum for those interested in repairing their own saw.
-Paul
CT 26 • DF 500 • ETS 125 • KS 120 • OF 1400 • PS 420 • RO 125 • TS 55 R

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2496
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 09:42 AM »
Appreciate your doing this process.  My Kapex is an original and I’ve had no issues but good to know parts and self repair could be an option.

And welcome to FOG.  BTW I have not had an issue with photo size... definitely larger than 400k for my inserts...

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 4825
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2018, 09:49 AM »
Great post...[thumbs up] [thumbs up]...seriously, I feel a lot less angst knowing I can fix the Kapex myself for $230 as opposed to sending it in to Festool and paying $450+.
[sad]

I've always wondered if mine smoked, if I would even fix it or just sell it as-is. This isn't a bad option...it's a great option.  [cool]

Seems like Festool could just put together their own first aid package which would include the armature, brushes, grease and instructions.

Maybe these would become a staple for Kapex owners, I'm serious, what's the difference between keeping a spare $170 Kapex 80 tooth blade around or keeping a spare $160 Kapex armature around?   [tongue]

I'd argue, the armature would be more important to keep as a spare item. That 80 tooth blade won't cut much of anything without a good armature behind it.  [crying]
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 09:53 AM by Cheese »

Online waho6o9

  • Posts: 1368
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 09:51 AM »
"Seems like Festool could just put together their own first aid package which would include the armature, brushes, grease and instructions. "

Wise ^^

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7348
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2018, 11:08 AM »
Seems like Festool could just put together their own first aid package which would include the armature, brushes, grease and instructions.

Do you really want their grease?? [tongue]
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 11496
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 11:32 AM »
I hate to put my Moderator hat on here, but unless Festool approves ( @TylerC , @Festool USA ) give an approval for posting a video or an image thread about repairing a tool - any tool - here it will probably not be allowed.

This has nothing to do with the Kapex issues posted here.  It has nothing to do with Festool's quietness on the subject.  Although this forum is owned by Festool USA it has always been treated as its own entity.  This is about safety.  We try to not allow depictions of modifications of the tools and I would imagine taking apart a tool to repair it would fall along the same lines.

Other hat on now.  I am a Kapex owner.  I am surprised that nothing has come forth over the months about the Kapex.  I would love to see a video or a pictorial but I imagine that if I were to something like that I would put it on youtube or a place away from the forum and then offer to send links to those interested.

Peter

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3469
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 11:40 AM »
I hate to put my Moderator hat on here, but unless Festool approves ( @TylerC , @Festool USA ) give an approval for posting a video or an image thread about repairing a tool - any tool - here it will probably not be allowed.

This has nothing to do with the Kapex issues posted here.  It has nothing to do with Festool's quietness on the subject.  Although this forum is owned by Festool USA it has always been treated as its own entity.  This is about safety.  We try to not allow depictions of modifications of the tools and I would imagine taking apart a tool to repair it would fall along the same lines.

Other hat on now.  I am a Kapex owner.  I am surprised that nothing has come forth over the months about the Kapex.  I would love to see a video or a pictorial but I imagine that if I were to something like that I would put it on youtube or a place away from the forum and then offer to send links to those interested.

Peter

Word to the wise...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 593
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2018, 11:43 AM »
If it is considered that this Forum is not the appropriate platform to post the DIY Kapex fix, I hope the OP will consider doing so either on other public channels (youtube or other woodworking forums) or sharing such info. via PM. It may be too much work to create a video, but even step-by-step photos with captions would be a great help.

Offline Green Mojo

  • Posts: 50
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2018, 12:15 PM »
Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me could weigh in... Do you think you could take the dead armature to a motor shop and have it properly rewound?

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5694
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2018, 12:17 PM »
I hate to put my Moderator hat on here, but unless Festool approves ( @TylerC , @Festool USA ) give an approval for posting a video or an image thread about repairing a tool - any tool - here it will probably not be allowed.

I've posted plenty of pictures of tools I've opened and repaired in the past, and it was never a problem, not a single time. And that was mostly under the Shane regime, and I can tell you from experience he was a lot more picky than Tyler, the current Festool representative. Repair is not the same as modification.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5694
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2018, 12:19 PM »
Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me could weigh in... Do you think you could take the dead armature to a motor shop and have it properly rewound?

That's nearly impossible without the proper machine to do that.

Offline Peter Halle

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  • Posts: 11496
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2018, 01:03 PM »
I hate to put my Moderator hat on here, but unless Festool approves ( @TylerC , @Festool USA ) give an approval for posting a video or an image thread about repairing a tool - any tool - here it will probably not be allowed.

I've posted plenty of pictures of tools I've opened and repaired in the past, and it was never a problem, not a single time. And that was mostly under the Shane regime, and I can tell you from experience he was a lot more picky than Tyler, the current Festool representative. Repair is not the same as modification.

Alex,  I just wanted to give the OP a heads up as well as readers about expectations.  I know what it is like to spend time putting together videos and pictorials and then never having the views to justify the time spent.  As far as I am concerned it will be up to Festool USA to allow or disallow.  I have a recollection of numerous posts here about tools being sent in for repair and then the owner decides not to have it repaired and they get it back in parts because of Festool policies dictated by risk management programs.

I was just trying to do what I thought was the right thing in this instance.

Peter

Offline ALI Construction

  • Posts: 16
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2018, 01:58 PM »
Relax ppl I’ll have a tutorial coming soon, I just took it apart and put it back together while taking atleast 25-30 pictures, will edit some, insert text, and make a word or pdf file for everyone who requests to see. Give me an hour or two. Y’all lucky kids r sleeping and I really didn’t feel like taking them anywhere today. Maybe later for them.
Anywais, just wait.
By the way after doing it a second time I really think this is a half hour deal. I mean whole thing with taking pictures took like 35-40 min

As far as technicalities, oh well, this is a grown ups forum, if you as a user rather pay ~$500 for someone else to fix something that should have not bin broken in a first place, you decide.
I say if you do your own oil changes in your car, you can tackle this easily

I am fully aware of the risks I’m taking in taking this saw appart.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1077
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2018, 02:50 PM »
Nice! A tutorial on this would be awesome! Thanks for putting the time into that!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 593
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2018, 02:52 PM »
There is no way I will pay $500 to repair my Kapex which three-year warranty just expired if it goes broken, especially there is no guarantee that it will not break down again within a couple of years.

So I am more than willing to take the risk of fixing it myself based on a set of field tested instructions. Thanks in advance for your pdfs and I sure hope, after reviewing them when I get them, I will never have to open them again....

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 217
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2018, 03:35 PM »
ALI Construction,

Hats off to you for taking the plunge...hearing that this is a less than one hour job makes it a no-brainer in my mind!  Looking forward to seeing your tutorial.

Offline ALI Construction

  • Posts: 16
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2018, 04:19 PM »
so taking it apart with pictures and assembling back together took like 40 min, editing it in word and paint took almost 3hrs.
so i have a PDF of a rudimentary tutorial put together, anyone interested, message me, and ill email it. also since this is my first one ever, please leave feedback/criticism on this forum.

Thx

P.S. don't hate, i'm a carpenter, not a computer geek lol

Offline ALI Construction

  • Posts: 16
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2018, 05:07 PM »
Also another suggestion for festool, this would maybe fit best in suggestions section but oh well:
while i was taking saw apart, why did festool pick the flimsy bevel lever and bevel stops?
Many saws noways have all upfront switches which are very convenient, I love the fine bevel adjust via a know thru right side rail.

What if bevel release would be changed for top rear (not always convenient to reach there) to a quarter turn style and incorporated into the other rail? you guys already have the design.
while were at it, might as well throw a separate selector ring on that same rain between rail and release/tighten knob for he 0-45,+45/-45, and +47/-47 presets? maybe even add a 22.5 degree presets in there?
kinda like turning rear windshield wipers on in most cars where switch sits right next to front wipers switch on a turn signal.

and I'm still longing for a brushless motors on these things. now that's a saw worth $1500 in my opinion.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 217
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2018, 07:47 PM »
Although it's far too risky to post here I had a chance to review ALI Construction's document and it makes the Kapex armature repair very doable!  Nice job ALIC!

All that remains is the deafening silence from Festool on the Kapex armature (non-) issue.

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 300
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2018, 08:08 PM »
Although it's far too risky to post here I had a chance to review ALI Construction's document and it makes the Kapex armature repair very doable!  Nice job ALIC!

All that remains is the deafening silence from Festool on the Kapex armature (non-) issue.

I got it too; thanks, and great job!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 593
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2018, 08:45 PM »
Thanks for taking so much time to prepare the pdf. I probably would need an hour to replace the parts.

Now, the groundwork has been laid. If any future unfortunate Kapex owner gets to fix his or her saw based on this set of instructions and shoot a video of the process, please share it. Every Kapex owner (other than those who are never worried about theirs) would appreciate it.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1077
Re: Another dead Kapex.
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2018, 09:01 PM »
How large is the PDF file? Can it not be posted as an attachment to a post?
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!