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Author Topic: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.  (Read 93240 times)

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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5986
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #390 on: March 16, 2019, 02:46 AM »
You don't see people flocking to the Internet to report they're completely happy with their purchases.

Actually, they do. This forum is one example, which is mainly dedicated to people who love Festool, not hate it. Another is on sites like amazon or newegg where you can leave reviews of your purchases, you read many positive reviews. If the product is good, it gets the praise it deserves.

If the failure rate of the Kapex was just as high as any other tool, we would read a lot about failures from other tools too here, but we don't. The Kapex stands out by a mile.

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Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #391 on: March 16, 2019, 07:39 AM »
I think with any product and any make, we tend to hear more about the ones that go wrong, than the ones that are bought and perform great as expected. Simply because if somebody were to go to a forum every time they bought something, and reported that it worked fine without fault and did exactly what it said on the tin or box, people would be wondering if the person was wired up properly! Lol!

I know from an experience of running a certain vehicle forum for many years, that these issues are very real, they’re not made up or rumours, they are characteristic issues with a certain product.
Sure you will get haters signing up on a forum, to simply stir the pot, or fan the flames of an issue but, the majority of the reported issues are real, often backed up with real proof.
I won’t mention the vehicles involved but, if somebody was buying that particular vehicle, I would instantly know what they should be looking for, and the chances are, there would be clear signs that the issues had been addressed.

We had a lot of dealing with the manufacturer and dealers of these vehicles. For a long time the issues were denied or not recognised, until more of the vehicles were sold, so the percentage of issues increased.
Sadly it was all coupled with media coverage, until eventually the issues were recognised and dealt with in an appropriate manner.

Cars, bikes, houses, tools, clothes and just about everything can and often does develop issues, it’s how the issues are dealt with that leaves an impression on customers right?

My thoughts are as follows, the Kapex carries a risk of developing a fault from when you first buy it, more so than other tools in the Festool range.
I have come to this conclusion, simply because i’ve read and heard from owners about a lot of these saws having the smoking/motor issue, unless they are all liars?

It’s not like we hear this on a fairly regular basis about other tools in the range, routers, sanders, circular saws, plunge saws, drills etc, the dust extractors apart from the flimsy tops are superb, the MFT type tables don’t have issues with legs falling off, or the tops breaking in half etc, etc. In fact most of the Festool range is heaped with praise, from pros to hobbyists right accross the board, and rightly so, they are superb tools.

The Kapex however, regardless of what the actual problem is, or the percentage that go west, does carry a risk of going wrong, and from the stats, much more so than any other tool in the line up.

It’s fine, and in reality, not a real worry apart from inconvenience and possible loss of income if a saw develops an issue, provided it’s still in warranty. If the saw is out of warranty, it’s a different story, and this for most of the owners that have experienced a Kapex acting up, is the real gripe.

So, some say Festool should extend the warranty, this then is like admitting there is a real risk with the saw. Also users of other tools would say why not extend the warranty accross the whole range, imagine the cost impact that would incur on the company?

I must admit that when I buy any new Festool tool or accessory, I have no worries or quibbles at all, apart from some of the prices, except the Kapex.
Whatever tool I buy nowadays, even more so for the workshop, would be Festool. The only exclusion I would have would be the Kapex. I don’t currently need a new miter saw but, if I did, it would almost certainly come from another manufacturer.

I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5986
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #392 on: March 16, 2019, 07:57 AM »
I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.

They did, some time ago, here on the forum. They said there wasn't a bigger failure rate for the Kapex than with any other tool. There was a slightly bigger failure rate, but not statistically significant.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 518
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #393 on: March 16, 2019, 08:17 AM »
So the kapex is as reliable as a Harley ?

Offline Mortiser

  • Posts: 39
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #394 on: March 16, 2019, 08:45 AM »
After reading all of the posts in this thread over the past couple of months, I am wondering if I am seeing a theme developing that, a Kapex saw that has a problem with an armature burning up, and that armature is then replaced, is it more likely that that particular saw is going to have the problem again? I've read about folks who have had their saw for a long time with no problem and then I read about those who have had the same "smoke" problem more than once on the same saw. If that's the case, you would not want to buy a used saw that ever had the smoking problem, even if Festool service had "fixed" it; or, once you have the problem, you may want to be looking for a different brand replacement saw and not pay the out-of-warranty cost to have it fixed again.
Am I correct in this perception?
Rich

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #395 on: March 16, 2019, 09:51 AM »
I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.

They did, some time ago, here on the forum. They said there wasn't a bigger failure rate for the Kapex than with any other tool. There was a slightly bigger failure rate, but not statistically significant.

That doesn’t tally with the amount of failures we hear about though Alex? As I mentioned in my earlier post, it’s like a certain car manufacturer saying a problem is non existent when it clearly was, and the manufacturer only conceded once media and disgruntled customer pressure forced their hand.

I think I’d have given Festool more credit if they’d said the problem was statistically consistant, which it seems to be?

So, a new improved Kapex with assurance that it carries little or no risk of developing the smoke/motor issues, that so many of the earlier models suffered with, would be very welcomed. Especially to the unfortunate owners that have had the issue at least once?

@Mortiser It certainly seems that way.

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 396
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #396 on: March 16, 2019, 10:01 AM »
It may be time for people to report to The Bureau of Consumer Protection.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6029
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #397 on: March 16, 2019, 10:09 AM »
After reading all of the posts in this thread over the past couple of months, I am wondering if I am seeing a theme developing that, a Kapex saw that has a problem with an armature burning up, and that armature is then replaced, is it more likely that that particular saw is going to have the problem again? I've read about folks who have had their saw for a long time with no problem and then I read about those who have had the same "smoke" problem more than once on the same saw. If that's the case, you would not want to buy a used saw that ever had the smoking problem, even if Festool service had "fixed" it; or, once you have the problem, you may want to be looking for a different brand replacement saw and not pay the out-of-warranty cost to have it fixed again.
Am I correct in this perception?

See reply #375 & #371...ticking time bomb.  [smile]

Offline alice

  • Posts: 102
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #398 on: March 16, 2019, 04:54 PM »
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11908
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #399 on: March 16, 2019, 05:23 PM »
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?

They didn't like each other? [big grin]

My guess is that it is a whole bunch of electronics that just weren't happy with each other.  The more complicated tools get I suspect we will see more of this.

Peter

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 498
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #400 on: March 16, 2019, 07:43 PM »
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?

Powerstation probably produces some very ugly looking AC (wave form),  kapex might see what it's getting and just say "no way".   Any DC to AC setup isn't going to be very pretty, but if it's done on cheap and small, it's not going to be the nicest looking power (less sin wave, more square wave).

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1446
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #401 on: March 16, 2019, 07:54 PM »
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.

Oops. 


Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6029
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #402 on: March 16, 2019, 10:31 PM »
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.
Oops.
.

Well that’s not good...I’ve got my 4100 hooked up to a Jet Vortex and everything is good...for now....has been for the last 7-8 years.

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1446
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #403 on: March 16, 2019, 11:38 PM »
Good news!

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 920
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #404 on: March 16, 2019, 11:52 PM »
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.

Oops.

Static?

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1446
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #405 on: March 17, 2019, 12:10 AM »
Not static, it was lacking electricity for start up if I recall correctly.

The helpful Bosch techs figured it out and a 40.00 dollar board made the table saw useful again.

I now plug the table saw into an outlet and the dust extractor into a different outlet. 

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #406 on: March 24, 2019, 08:16 AM »
I was in two different tool shops/stores yesterday, dipping into the pension fund again  [scared]

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.

It really is a shame, as yesterday Festool products relieved me of almost another £2,000. This month alone I must of spent three times that amount on tools, and two thirds of it was with Festool.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:27 AM by Jiggy Joiner »

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 498
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #407 on: March 24, 2019, 02:51 PM »

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.


They won't know what might be different, unless they have got out tools and did some teardown to compare PNs within.  And like anyshop, they are going to play dumb, or low key to the idea there are issues.  Hard to sell product when you go "oh yeah, these things have a history of frying a lot".

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #408 on: March 24, 2019, 03:02 PM »
In the meantime, while people are debating (which is the right word because we really are clueless about how big or widespread the motor problem is) about the Kapex, or struggling if this is the right time to get one, or wondering if, as one of the owners, theirs would smoke in the near future (I'm one of them  [big grin]), I have been cutting amazing mitres (as perfect as they can ever be) ....
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 03:04 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #409 on: March 24, 2019, 04:36 PM »

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.


They won't know what might be different, unless they have got out tools and did some teardown to compare PNs within.  And like anyshop, they are going to play dumb, or low key to the idea there are issues.  Hard to sell product when you go "oh yeah, these things have a history of frying a lot".

Yes DT, you’re right and I never pressed the point with either of the assistants because of the points you mention.
I did find myself getting very touchy feely with the display model, and was as usual very impressed at the innovation and little touches that have made this saw legendary.

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 172
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #410 on: March 24, 2019, 07:28 PM »
And so it goes... 9 pages - 410 Replies... So far.
If Festool would fix the problems with the Kapex - I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
But, a fickle woman... No matter how beautiful and sexy -
Just isn’t worth the aggravation and unfaithfulness.

So, until Festool fixes the problems - The FOG commentary stops detailing failures -
And this - When it’s right - Apparently incredible tool - Can be trusted -
I’ll stick with my tried and trusty Bocsh 5412L SCMS.
Still cuts straight and true... Every time... At a 1/3 the price.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 07:52 PM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #411 on: March 30, 2019, 07:49 PM »
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

I would almost certainly choose a 240 volt version, as although I've heard of cases with both voltages acting up, the 110-120 volt seems the higher percentage?
I genuinely don't know whether to take a leap of faith, or buy a saw roughly three times cheaper? Part of me thinks go for it! but, I then think it would be just my luck to buy one, and it takes a dive out of warranty  [scared]

Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.
However, doubt is a punisher at times.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1096
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #412 on: March 30, 2019, 08:05 PM »
Can't help you on the armature issue (or worry about the armature issue (after 3 years)), but on the precision aspect, I have not handled anything like the Kapex. See the dead-on mitres in a recent project.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 08:12 PM by ChuckM »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6029
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #413 on: March 30, 2019, 10:05 PM »
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 498
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #414 on: March 30, 2019, 11:40 PM »
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]

Well, if you never use it, you save a lot of money on not buying a CT for it and still keeping it dust free, which in turns makes the overall cost of owning a Kapex much less.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6029
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #415 on: March 31, 2019, 01:00 AM »
Well, if you never use it, you save a lot of money on not buying a CT for it and still keeping it dust free, which in turns makes the overall cost of owning a Kapex much less.

Excellent...I think we're on to something here that's called value added.

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 426
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #416 on: March 31, 2019, 05:17 AM »
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

This is where Festool have really shot themselves in the foot. Even if they have fixed the issue they can't say they have because that is admitting that there was one.

 

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 460
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #417 on: March 31, 2019, 08:10 AM »
Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?

This is similar to the Elio car company approach. People put down a $1000 deposit and never have to pay a cent more to operate their Elio. Of course, they do not actually have a Elio in their possession, but that seems like a trivial point.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #418 on: March 31, 2019, 08:57 AM »
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]

 [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] Look here Mr Cheese, I’ve only just started my love affair with plastic. So now I also have to get used to the idea of buying tools to look at, but not use?
You might have a point though, I could just buy one, perch it on the bench, right in the centre, pride of place etc. Then buy a cheaper saw, with no known risk, and use it for everything, and wipe any stray dust off the Kapex.
Then in ten years, I can say “My Kapex has never missed a beat!”
 [doh]  [tongue]

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 473
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #419 on: March 31, 2019, 08:59 AM »
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

This is where Festool have really shot themselves in the foot. Even if they have fixed the issue they can't say they have because that is admitting that there was one.

 

That’s been my thinking lately Doug