Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.  (Read 31453 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« on: July 01, 2017, 10:42 AM »
So my 2.5 year old saw has blown smoke out of the motor and stopped working for the second time in 2 years. To Festools credit the unit was repaired free of charge. They tell me this is isolated. I can see here on fog that they are noy beimg forthcoming. I highly recommend if you do work in the hardwood industry to buy something different. You'll save yourself money and a headache. I own many other festool products i am happy with. I cant find a bad initial review about this saw anywhere. Seems the issues come about 1 year later.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline PA floor guy

  • Posts: 287
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2017, 12:10 PM »
I too install wood floors for a living.  This past week while installing some 5" white oak, I noticed the saw starting to bog down.  Keep in mind I baby this saw, really baby it.  I would be very disgusted if it burnt up.  It's about 2 years old. 

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 495
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2017, 12:16 PM »
So my 2.5 year old saw has blown smoke out of the motor and stopped working for the second time in 2 years. To Festools credit the unit was repaired free of charge. They tell me this is isolated. I can see here on fog that they are noy beimg forthcoming. I highly recommend if you do work in the hardwood industry to buy something different. You'll save yourself money and a headache. I own many other festool products i am happy with. I cant find a bad initial review about this saw anywhere. Seems the issues come about 1 year later.

I blew all these reports of Kapex failure off as bad luck for several years thinking the users just got a lemon or may have been working them to death. Luckily it has never happened to me, but mine was purchased the day they were released in the US. I think it is time to move onto other brands for mitre saws. There are several other manufacturers to pick from. Write it up as a loss and move on. As an installer you can't afford to be without your saw.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2017, 12:51 PM »
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 02:42 PM »
Anyone else have problems let me hear it on instagram. Use #brokenkapex

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2017, 06:01 PM »
As a Kapex owner (since early 2015), I am increasingly alarmed by this and other similar reports. I wish I had known about this forum before I bought my saw! As a saw, it is, however, excellent in all aspects, from dust collection (no one else is better) to angles to clamping (I don't have any issues with its ergonomics).

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2017, 06:33 PM »
I to wish i had known. I do like the saw. Just not willing to keep sinking money in it when the warranty is up.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2017, 09:50 PM »
Oh boy...mine is coming three years old and has been babied like the OP's. I'm starting to get worried. Please pray for my saw. Thx.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 10:33 PM »
Praying for yours and mine!

Happy Canada Day!


Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 01:25 AM »
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.
Interesting new Makita
+1

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 10:07 AM »
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.

I have been looking to replace my old Hitachi miter saw and the new Makita looks like a contender. I would never consider the Kapex although I own a lot of Festool tools. The fact that Festool continues to say this is not a problem makes me wonder what kind of a company they are. [unsure]

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2017, 10:38 AM »
Whats upsetting to me is that almost every comparison of mitre saws puts the KAPEX at the top. For intial testing, ease of use, dust collection yheu are right. For the ones using the saw to make money every day making hundreds of cuts in hard material, it just can't keep up. Being that is has faulty internals or is underpowered, we can only speculate because its all isolated incidents.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2017, 11:09 AM »
Whats upsetting to me is that almost every comparison of mitre saws puts the KAPEX at the top. For intial testing, ease of use, dust collection yheu are right. For the ones using the saw to make money every day making hundreds of cuts in hard material, it just can't keep up. Being that is has faulty internals or is underpowered, we can only speculate because its all isolated incidents.

I have no idea where Festool is in their investigation on the Kapex.  I also believe that silence on this issue will hurt them long term.  But they are a large enough company to devote resources and hire consultants to do what they need to do.

That being said, I have had my Kapex since 2010 and have made a bunch of bucks with it.  If it were to die - which I don't think that it will - I would have to get an old Hitachi out of storage to get me thru.  If I had to buy a new saw would I look at a Kapex?  Possibly.  But other brands would be considered primarily and heavily.

I might be a Moderator here but I shop with my dollars.  Hopefully someone at Festool has set up a notification for when I post and they will see this.

Head slap.

Mike drop.

Peter

Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 382
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 12:56 PM »
Well timed post this, my Kapex just smoked for the second time in 5 years. I wasn't going to post about it because everyone gets fed up of the Kapex bashing but since it has started up again I will join in.

Mine first burnt out when it was less then 2 years old, fixed under warranty. It has now just reached its 5th birthday, I was using it on Thursday, it made a funny noise, big puff of smoke out of the back and a really bad acrid smell just the same as the first time.

My Kapex is only used by me, normally in the workshop and certainly never pushed or used hard.

It is a great saw when it comes to extraction, accuracy and portability but the motor is certainly not fit for purpose, Festool should be fixing these saws free of charge even when out of warranty.

It's a 240v UK model so the problem is not just with the 110v American version.

I shall be calling Festool tomorrow for a chat.

Doug

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 02:29 PM »
Good luck with your phone call. My last few calls to repairs I spoke with Brett. After disscussing my issue and asking for some sort of resolution I?would be met with silence on the other end. Almost as he was unwilling to say anything. I asked for the tech to call me when my tool was on the work bench so I could inderstand what was happening. He took my repair order number and said they would call. Of course i was not surprised when the tool was returned fixed without getting a phone call.

I was asked the same questions. What environment i use the tool in?

How do I power the tool?

How do I make cuts?

What I am cutting?

What blades and how sharp?

I was also told this issue would likely not happen again. After that my local store got involved. They were told the issue is me not keeping the blade sharp. I have 3 that i rotate and have sharpened.

After answering all the questions and hearing that I am using the tool correctlty I was tranferred to applications. They tell me If using a higher tooth count blade , plug it into the wall and not the Ct 36. Dont cut anything wider than 3 inches.  Goodbye.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2017, 03:20 PM »
Dont cut anything wider than 3 inches.  Goodbye.

Seriously?!

Did you place your call on ... April the 1st?

I am much impressed with what Peter, the G.M., wrote above. He wrote from his heart...something a lot of people won't do these days to avoid upsetting someone higher up.

Festool has been burying its head in the sand for so long on this big eye-sore, and it is time it came up with a solution for all Kapex owners, before pushing any new tools. Divert and focus any new tool development resources to curing this cancer before its reputation is damaged beyond repair.

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 359
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 05:22 PM »
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 05:25 PM by Jaybolishes »

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 05:57 PM »
Same here. All the other tools I own from Festool, I really like.

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 06:06 PM »
The real mystery here is why they have not gotten out in front of this and done right by the people who bought these saws. I think the the cost would be less than the bad publicity this is going to cost them in the long run.

I don't know how you can equate the cost to the Festool name that this is causing but the longer it is left unresolved the harder it is going to be to overcome. [eek]

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 06:34 PM »
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.

Jay,  thank you for causing me to go and look something up! [big grin]

In an effort to be helpful  to others smh = Acronym for 'shake my head' or 'shaking my head.' Usually used when someone finds something so stupid, no words can do it justice.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 301
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 08:28 PM »
My Kapex, which only gets used occasionally, Still runs great. It is several years old (back when they were only $1300.00) and still looks virtually brand new.  I love it and hope (worriedly) that it never burns up..... but, I know of four contractors who drooled over my saw on the job and wanted one. I told them the good (which is all mine has been) and I warned them of the motor trouble that many have experienced and the lack of resolution from festool.  All these guys concluded that  there was no way on earth to justify ANY problem on such an expensive miter saw. These four guys would now be using a Kapex if not for the motor issue.  It is what it is...past time for resolution.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 08:56 PM »
I am really happy to see so many people discussing this. I dont complain when I have small issues. Usually I just roll with them as I did the first time the motor burned up. After my last experience I need somewhere to discuss how I feel. This has been a goos outlet and hopefully someone at Festool see these posts and the amount of views they get.

Offline overanalyze

  • Posts: 410
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 09:52 PM »
I have remained silent for years on our Kapex issues. Festool service has always been great so I didnt think it was a big deal. I LOVE the saw. I bought it back in 2012 or 2013. It blew the magic smoke right under the warranty period. All shipping and repairs covered. Awesome! Then just a few months ago it did it again. All repairs covered, I paid shipping to Indy. Still very pleased!

Now...if it died again?...Not sure what I would do. I use it for work. I am a builder. It is our finish trim saw. It gets used for trim work only. We have 20 year old Dewalts that are our framing and rough use saws.

I was talking to my father about it and he has a good background in electric. I told him how they always ask about length of cords, circuit amperage, etc. The saw says it is a 120v motor. Our area has always had high voltage power. Consistently runs 125v plus. He wondered if high voltage wasnt more an issue than voltage drop.  Certainly never crosse my mind before he said it...wonder if Festool ever looked at that as a possibility...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2017, 11:51 PM »
The standard ISO method is that usually one makes a fishbone diagram of the mechanisms that lead to failure. Like ISO 21500, IEC 60034, ISO 1940, ISO 7919... etc... There are tons of them as well as the US 6-sigma.

They should know what is failing as well as the mechanisms that cause those parts to fail.
While magic smoke is escaping, the mechanism of failure is not magical.
There is a design or manufacturing issue that do not allow Kapex' to last the 20+ years like the dewalts... But it should not be magical or mysterious, unless it is just a perception issue.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2017, 08:40 AM »
I think it's past time that @TylerC 's bosses come on here and make a statement re: this issue, non issue , or whatever they are calling it these days.

While they take a black eye around here , their overall reputation is barely scratched out there in tooldom.  Bloggers and Video reviewers keep lauding the machine, and the general public keeps buying Festools by the boat load.  Which motivates FT to do what exactly?

Now, if Tom's saw blew smoke on ToH, or Peter P.'s went tits up on an episode of the New Brit Workshop, or Popular Mechanics or Tool of the Trade ran an article - then maybe enough public pressure could be brought to bear.  But until Kapex problems lead the Google search string , I'm guessing nothing is going to happen.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2017, 09:15 AM »
Now, if Tom's saw blew smoke on ToH, or Peter P.'s went tits up on an episode of the New Brit Workshop, or Popular Mechanics or Tool of the Trade ran an article - then maybe enough public pressure could be brought to bear.  But until Kapex problems lead the Google search string , I'm guessing nothing is going to happen.
While something like that might lead to a good thing for the ones already owning one the bottom line would be bad.

I sometimes wonder if something similiar to (Fight Club 'the formula') applies here...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2017, 10:37 AM »
Major publicity is just bad for a company's bottom line and image anyway you slice it up.

Problem here is , FOG is not major publicity.  And many of the members take up the cause when a complainer shows up.  They defend FT chalking it up to just plain,ol bad luck ; or saying "what are the odds?" 

And they're right.  More guys have no trouble than not.

 Except.........when you the unlucky sod whose got one of the 2.000047% that aren't supercalafrajolistic ; you're not feeling too good about that $1300-1600 you spent and for a saw that lasted 3 1/2 years.  And all those easy bevel, 12% better dust collection, 5lbs lighter, it's a system features are worthless on an electric paperweight that doesn't even turn on.

Laminator's colleagues are correct. At this price, there should be no failures.

The fix is easy: offer a 10yr warranty on Kapex and eat the cost of all those 2.00047% of saws that break.  But just like the video highlights, the financial reality is doing that makes little sense. Especially when the tools keep flying off of the shelf.

Offline Dave Reinhold

  • Posts: 528
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2017, 01:16 PM »
I had a kapex repaired last year, new armature, new armature  lasted until a few days before Christmas till that one burned. Brought out my backup kapex only to have that last 5 months in the field before that armature went up in smoke.
Now I'm down 2 kapex and went out and bought the Bosch glide. Way too heaven and has a ton of blade wobble. Hoping the new makita is as nova as it looks and can be a kapex replacement. The kapex seems too fragile for everyday work. But it's so hard to find something that can come close to its accuracy and light weight.

Dave
check out www.youtube.com/user/DaveReinholdTV for new tool demos every week

Offline rdr

  • Posts: 68
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2017, 02:36 PM »
I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on a Kapex120 but being a member of FOG is putting me off now. It would be for private use and wouldn't get anywhere near trade use so I worry about the possibility of it going pop outside the warranty period. I understand the complexities around Festools situation, it's a big thing to get to the bottom of issues like this and even bigger admitting it and applying remediation to an existing customer base.

If its not going to be addressed physically then I would like to see Festool offer a 10 year warranty from new on the electronics & drive train or maybe an Extended warranty option to take out at the 3rd year much like you can on cars and home appliances.

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 94
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2017, 03:55 PM »
As a member of my local woodworkers guild I am kind of considered the "festool guy" in the group that people come to for festool advice.. This problem has already cost them 2 sales in our small group (myself and another member who was planning to buy one, but asked me for feedback).

FOG members around the world are typically Festools leading enthusiasts,and thus key influencers to many many more potential customers.

For everyone who has run around their community raving about the Domino or CXS there are probably an exponentially larger group telling people not to touch a Kapex with a ten foot pole.

One would think that Festool recognizes the influence of this key group of customers, and would respond appropriately. They obviously believe catering to the FOG makes them money, as evidenced by what they spend for the Roadshow and Connect.

Just a few thoughts..............
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2017, 05:35 PM »
It would be against my conscience knowing what I know about the potential issue with the Kapex motor to recommend it unconditionally. If asked, I would say about the so many good things about the saw, BUT... is how I would continue and qualify my assessment.

To me, the time bomb can happen to anyone and it is not worth the worry in the back of the mind, given the price tag of $2,000 Cdn. If Festool came up with a permanent solution and offered a one-time $200 fix (10% of tool price), I would do it, just for the sake of peace of mind. Crowd funding, Festool?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2017, 06:17 PM »
I would have remained quite on my issues had I been offered a replacement or extension on the warranty. However I was met with silence on my request. So here I am and will be doing what I can to get other potential buyers to know what I did not.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 453
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
    • Portfolio
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2017, 06:56 PM »
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Longhair

  • Posts: 4
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2017, 08:11 PM »
I've been considering a new saw for  a couple of years and festool was the primary contender. No longer, I'm afraid. For that kind of price, I can't afford the possibility. I have a few festools, but not the Kapex.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2017, 10:04 PM »
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Good question. Anyone?

But since Festool sounds to me a typical departmentalized company, I wonder if anyone who had tried reached anything past the middle mgmt. The motor problem we have heard so much about is beyond anyone on the middle mgmt pay grade.


Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2164
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2017, 10:16 PM »
Christian Oltzscher is the CEO of Festool.  Formerly ran Festool USA and is now in Germany. 

He's a member here and the reason the FOG was brought under the Festool organization many years ago.  Great guy.  You might try sending him a direct message.  I've personally had a Kapex since it was introduced with no motor issues. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 08:33 AM by neilc »

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5305
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2017, 10:33 PM »
I run 2 Kapex's. Not a motor issue with either. I did have one that needed a yoke and two fences. Festool replaced them no questions asked.

The saws are run on CT's from the Midi to the 36 AC.

Tom

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 116
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2017, 03:32 AM »
I have a kapex and needless to say I follow these threads with much interest.

One question I have been meaning to ask is if these failures are more prevalent with newer units, vs the much older units bought around the time when Kapex was introduced. I get this feeling because several old timers seem to have no issue with their units over many many years. It is possible I am mistaken.

Thanks in advance.

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 382
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2017, 05:38 AM »
It's posts like the one from Dave Reinhold that sum up the Kapex for me. I remember seeing one of his videos a few years ago in which he was raving about how good the Kapex is, 5 years and 3 armatures later he has bought something else because the Kapex motor is not fit for purpose.

Doug

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 401
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2017, 09:46 AM »
I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2017, 10:11 AM »

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.


We don't know any facts about the failure rates, do we? Festool has been silent on the whole motor thing in public and that has made matters worse, because owners like me who have never had an issue with the motor have become worried, increasingly worried as our saws get older and older (passing or soon to pass the warranty period).

It would have been better if they had come out and told us the failure rates among different years of production or sales. At least some groups of owners would feel better....

We must also not forget that we are talking about one of the most expensive (costly?) tools from Festool. It is the second most expensive tool in my shop after the SawStop. As a hobbyist, I have zero concern about my SS, and I don't have any concern about my DF500 either, even we though we see some issues reported by its users here. Machines are machines and can be broken for all kinds of reasons, but the Kapex motors seem to stand out among the Kapex problems.

I like the saw, but not the uncertainty that comes with it.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2017, 11:25 AM »
I asked for the next person in line to move up the chain of command.  However again my request was met wiyh silence and redirected to applications.

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 11:30 AM »
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.

Online tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5305
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 11:38 AM »
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.

In my case I do run the saw(s) daily. I use them for trim and framing material. I am selective of which blades I use for the tasks.

Tomorrow I will be installing 3/4 x 5-1/4" Jatoba floor.

Tom

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 453
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
    • Portfolio
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2017, 03:50 PM »
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver

I asked for the next person in line to move up the chain of command.  However again my request was met wiyh silence and redirected to applications.

Ok, so @Rsrflooring has asked via telephone to speak to someone a little higher up the food chain and wasn't forwarded/connected properly.

Anyone else? Anyone used a different method?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2017, 04:23 PM »
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.

I have experience in trouble-shooting .

You can feel that way, but it depends on the mechanism of failure.
Bearings are different than electrical, so it depends on what has failed for a motor guru to work it out.
(In the past many have said low voltage?)

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1151
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2017, 04:30 PM »
Hi,
There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?
Kind regards,
Oliver
There is no doubt they are aware of the issue. It's inconceivable that service records of a major product is not communicated to the higher management along with sales figures and other information. If the CEOs sleep through board meetings, accountants will be sure to wake them up when they notice warranty repair expenses.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 04:35 PM by Svar »

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 453
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
    • Portfolio
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2017, 04:56 PM »
Hi,
There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?
Kind regards,
Oliver
There is no doubt they are aware of the issue. It's inconceivable that service records of a major product is not communicated to the higher management along with sales figures and other information. If the CEOs sleep through board meetings, accountants will be sure to wake them up when they notice warranty repair expenses.

Hi!

I have absolutely no doubt that Festool CEOs/Board Members are aware of the situation.

But since quite a couple of people affected by the issue have voiced their demands regarding the handling of the situation right here on the FOG, I'd like to know if those demands were also addressed to someone that can actually fulfill them/ sign off on them.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2017, 06:58 PM »
The answer to the question about someone speaking to someone higher up at Festool about the Kapex issue is yes.  Although I have not had a Kapex issue I have gone as high as I can go - which is about as high as one can go.  I know of at least one other who has also gone that high.

There isn't anything from that conversation that I can share other than Festool was investigating at that time.

Peter

Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Leozepolusa

  • Posts: 1
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2017, 12:37 PM »
Well,

I own several Festool products and was on the verge of finally dropping the cash on a Kapex when I ran into one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often.  I decided to look up the issue at FOG and immediately ran into this string.  This is a real bummer.  I do expect to use the variable speed often and will never spend $1,500 without this obvious motor issue resolved.  The fact Festool has not jumped on this with a response acknowledging the problem is very disappointing.  At 3X the cost of the competition for a machine with so many unique and useful features yet with a week powertrain is pointless.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2017, 12:58 AM »
one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often
This is an interesting data point that could explain the issue:

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 01:00 AM by Gregor »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2017, 03:42 AM »
There are thermal paints that change color at various temps. It is common to see a dab on parts.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2017, 05:44 AM »
one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often
This is an interesting data point that could explain the issue:

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).

I mostly understand your point Gregor.  To clarify, could you comment on this analogy.

Are you postulating that the Kapex has a "transmission" much like a vehicle?  I think most can understand that if one attempts to drive a vehicle at high speed in 1st gear, severe damage is almost a certainty.  Where my analogy falls short in this aspect is that a vehicle will send warnings to the operator and the operator will likely not push the motor beyond "redline" for too long.  To my knowledge, the Kapex cannot do this.  A reference to heat reactive paint is such a warning, but do we know such paint is used on any power tools?

Perhaps my 120 will survive, because I cannot recall a time when I have operated it at any speed less than full throttle. I work exclusively with wood and mostly softwood.  I do not cut metal, but if I did, I would use a different saw exclusively for cutting metal.  The other protocol I follow pretty religiously is that I let the 120s motor achieve top speed before engaging the materials being cut.  I was told years ago by a fine woodworker than this activity reduces blade harmonics and results in a truer cut.  Based on Gregor's post, I theorize that the notion of allowing the motor to reach top speed, also reduces heat from the current cut to add to that from previous cuts.

So far so good for me.  My 120 is coming three years old and running well, but every time i read new "up in smoke" posts, I get a little more anxious for the future of mine.
Dance with who brung ya...

Online T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 836
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2017, 07:13 AM »
With more and more manufactures coming out with new corded and corded/cordless miter saws I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next year Festool comes out the a new Kapex 120.   I think that it’s the only way to get past the troubles with the current saw.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2017, 08:20 AM »

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).

Some interesting conjecture...if this happens to be the case and it could well be, wouldn't it just be smart of Festool Corporate to make this announcement and potentially prevent some of the issues they are facing?

Here's an excerpt from the current owner's manual:
–Switch on the machine.
–Hold the saw unit by the handle (1.1), guide slowly downwards and cut through the
workpiece at an even rate of advance.
–Switch off the machine and wait until the saw blade stops completely.


That's it, nothing about bringing the blade up to speed or small/short repetitive cuts.  [tongue]

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2017, 09:54 AM »
My Kapex doesn't get much use.  I'm concerned about a $1500 saw dying on me.  I bought it with the thought that it would last a very long time like my other Festool tools are suppose to.  I'm wondering if it would be best to sell it and buy something else. 

What replacement miter saws would you guys recommend?  I use it mostly for straight and angled cuts (almost no compound cuts).  My main concern is good dust collection.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2017, 10:57 AM »
I mostly understand your point Gregor.  To clarify, could you comment on this analogy.

Are you postulating that the Kapex has a "transmission" much like a vehicle?
No, AFAIK the motor fan runs at the same speed as the motor itself. So as the motor runs slower when you turn the speed dial down the fan will also slow down, putting load on the blade will then lead to increased current flow (as the electronic will notice the blade slowing it'll compensate) which will result in more heat released in the winding - possibly leading to a situation where the fan (as of low motor speed) dosn't manage to move the heat out of the machine quick enough so it'll build up, leading to increased resistance in the winding as of higher temperature (possibly in an area that dosn't get ideal airflow), leading to more heat buildup in the winding, ... eventually resulting in winding meltdown (or shortcut because of insulation failure).

Keep in mind: just a speculation from my side given what I have read about the Kapex issue, I havn't looked at the guts of (enough) dead ones so I can't be sure.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:00 AM by Gregor »

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 382
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2017, 12:11 PM »
Never run my Kapex on anything but full speed and it's burnt up twice, I personally think it's the lots of small quick cuts that causes the problem as that is something I would be more likely to do.

Update on my Kapex that burnt out last week.

Was going to call Festool last Friday afternoon but found service only open till 3pm on Fridays.

Called Monday and asked to speak to someone about it, told call back in an hour, they emailed me a repair form.

Called back an hour later still nobody to speak to but told if I left my number somebody would call me back so left mobile number.

I filled in repair form and emailed it off on Monday, asked for someone to give me a call in a covering email, got the standard auto reply saying thank you for email and someone would be in touch asap.

Got to Thursday (today) and no calls or emails so I gave Festool a call. A very helpful girl told me yes they had received the repair form and I was on the waiting list. "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you. FFS!

So one week on and dead Kapex still waiting for collection and Festool made no attempt to return my calls or contact me to let me know what was happening. I moved my work around this week thinking I would have saw back for next week but I will have to change my plans again.

They sell themselves on tools built for the toughest demands and superb after service but afraid at the moment I'm not seeing either of these.

Doug




Offline Phil Beckley

  • Festool Employee
  • *
  • Posts: 1452
  • Ask the question, and get the discussion going...
    • youtube - Festool U.K
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2017, 12:39 PM »
Never run my Kapex on anything but full speed and it's burnt up twice, I personally think it's the lots of small quick cuts that causes the problem as that is something I would be more likely to do.

Update on my Kapex that burnt out last week.

Was going to call Festool last Friday afternoon but found service only open till 3pm on Fridays.

Called Monday and asked to speak to someone about it, told call back in an hour, they emailed me a repair form.

Called back an hour later still nobody to speak to but told if I left my number somebody would call me back so left mobile number.

I filled in repair form and emailed it off on Monday, asked for someone to give me a call in a covering email, got the standard auto reply saying thank you for email and someone would be in touch asap.

Got to Thursday (today) and no calls or emails so I gave Festool a call. A very helpful girl told me yes they had received the repair form and I was on the waiting list. "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you. FFS!

So one week on and dead Kapex still waiting for collection and Festool made no attempt to return my calls or contact me to let me know what was happening. I moved my work around this week thinking I would have saw back for next week but I will have to change my plans again.

They sell themselves on tools built for the toughest demands and superb after service but afraid at the moment I'm not seeing either of these.

Doug

Hi
Call me in the morning - I am in meeting but when out will call you back
Rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline RobWoodCutter

  • Posts: 80
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2017, 01:19 PM »
My view is different than most (all).

Contrary to the ads, I look at Festool products as more precision tools as oppose to construction grade tools. Can you use them in the field, yeah sure, but they seem more at home in the shop.

I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.

The difference is the precision and the dust collection.

I have had a Kapex since soon after they came out in the USA.

I always adjust the speed based on the material being cut.
I always bring the saw up to speed before cutting the material (yeah I know it doesn't say you have to but having been WW for the past 45+ years, this is common sense and mentioned in a number of tool manuals.)
I always use the Kapex as a sliding cut and never as a plunge cut. If you cut a 1x6 as  plunge cut you are engaging 6"+ inches of the blade circumference, by sliding cut you are only engaging 1" of blade circumference. You are putting more pressure on the motor by engaging more of the teeth at one time. (If I compare say the motor size on the Kapex to my 18" 5 hp delta radial saw, the 5hp motor does not care how many teeth are engage or what you are cutting.) This is similar comparison to a small motor on a tabletop tablesaw and HD motor on a cabinet saw.
You also get better dust collection by sliding because all of the sawdust is being pushed upwards and not rearward. 
I always take my time making the cut because I am looking for a clean last cut not a hacking/splittering cut a contractor saw does on a 2x4, 2x8 etc. with the expectation of sanding.
I always disconnect the hose to the Kapex and vacuum up the Kapex each day after it has been used.

The problem with Festool not responding to the Kapex issue, is we don't know how many have been sold and what percentage have had motor issues and of the ones that do have motor issues, what was the actual usage and environment. (i.e. was the saw mostly used outside in a construction environment with high humidity or in excessive dusty area with no vac attached.) If Festool were to published they have sold 50,000 Kapex worldwide and only a dozen have had motor issues is completely different that if they have sold only 200 worldwide and 50 have motor issues.

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 

Therein lies the problem of identifying what is causing the problem.

As someone with now has over $20K invested in Festool products, I would still continue to give them high marks overall....even if the my Kapex motor fries, in which case I will just order the replacement parts and fix it myself.

Rob



Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2017, 03:09 PM »
I disagree , the problem with FT not responding is simply that they are NOT RESPONDING.

It has been well over a year since they acknowledged the issue. Yet no response.

And yet during that same period they have found time to develop, manufacture and market an entirely new Mitersaw ?  😳

So either they aren't capable of testing damaged and new saws ,or they have found an issue and have chosen not to respond because of the financial exposure that it places on the business.

Neither speaks very highly of company in FT's position.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 116
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2017, 07:49 PM »
I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.
like some one said, Festool promotes its tools as meeting the toughest demands

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 
arguably other Festool tools could go through the same harsh treatment. There must be a reason why Kapex failures are reported much more (here) than the other tools.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2017, 08:20 PM »
There must be a reason why Kapex failures are reported much more (here) than the other tools.
Retail price vs. durability (especially where a Kapex failed repeatedly) ?

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 152
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2017, 09:19 PM »
My view is different than most (all).

Contrary to the ads, I look at Festool products as more precision tools as oppose to construction grade tools. Can you use them in the field, yeah sure, but they seem more at home in the shop.

I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.

The difference is the precision and the dust collection.

I have had a Kapex since soon after they came out in the USA.

I always adjust the speed based on the material being cut.
I always bring the saw up to speed before cutting the material (yeah I know it doesn't say you have to but having been WW for the past 45+ years, this is common sense and mentioned in a number of tool manuals.)
I always use the Kapex as a sliding cut and never as a plunge cut. If you cut a 1x6 as  plunge cut you are engaging 6"+ inches of the blade circumference, by sliding cut you are only engaging 1" of blade circumference. You are putting more pressure on the motor by engaging more of the teeth at one time. (If I compare say the motor size on the Kapex to my 18" 5 hp delta radial saw, the 5hp motor does not care how many teeth are engage or what you are cutting.) This is similar comparison to a small motor on a tabletop tablesaw and HD motor on a cabinet saw.
You also get better dust collection by sliding because all of the sawdust is being pushed upwards and not rearward. 
I always take my time making the cut because I am looking for a clean last cut not a hacking/splittering cut a contractor saw does on a 2x4, 2x8 etc. with the expectation of sanding.
I always disconnect the hose to the Kapex and vacuum up the Kapex each day after it has been used.

The problem with Festool not responding to the Kapex issue, is we don't know how many have been sold and what percentage have had motor issues and of the ones that do have motor issues, what was the actual usage and environment. (i.e. was the saw mostly used outside in a construction environment with high humidity or in excessive dusty area with no vac attached.) If Festool were to published they have sold 50,000 Kapex worldwide and only a dozen have had motor issues is completely different that if they have sold only 200 worldwide and 50 have motor issues.

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 

Therein lies the problem of identifying what is causing the problem.

As someone with now has over $20K invested in Festool products, I would still continue to give them high marks overall....even if the my Kapex motor fries, in which case I will just order the replacement parts and fix it myself.

Rob

Could not have said it better!

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2017, 09:43 PM »
" "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you."

 [eek] [eek] [eek]

We owners of a Kapex who have, touch wood, had no motor issues with our saws so far can only do one thing (till Festool comes up with a long-lasting fix): Increase our prayers from once a day (before we turn on the Kapex) to twice (or more) (before we unplug the cord).

I agree with many (but not all) of pointers that Rob outlined for using the Kapex or, for that matter, using any sliding compound saw. But it doesn't answer the question why other saws don't fail like Kapex when such good habits are not followed.

Silence is certainly not golden on the part of Festool in this matter. 

« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 09:46 PM by ChuckM »

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 57
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2017, 01:14 PM »
 It takes years to build a reputation for good tools and it only takes 3 pages of complaints/posts to destroy that reputation.

 I am a newbie to Festool, but I still spent $6k since Christmas on Festool and was going to buy the Kapex, I was so happy with the other Festools I purchased (still am), I easily assumed the Kapex was the very best on the market, now I know better and I am looking at others.  Why ? because the competition is talking and Festool is not.  Because of this issue, I will not blindly buy Festool like I did the first few months of this year, I no longer believe they are the best and I worry about customer support if this is the best they can do for support.

 There might not even be a problem with the Kapex, but Festool's silence tells me its a piece of junk and they know it so they keep quiet hoping we all go away on this subject.  Oh, and if its not a piece of junk, they sure let me think so by not telling me otherwise.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2017, 11:30 PM »
I have talked to 3 people this week in the process of selling my Kapex. Telling the them the pros and cons. They have a decided to to buy the new Makita. Mine is on order. I think that right there is saying something. I am selling my freshly fixed Kapex for $800 with three blades. Thats half off  new one. They still ask me what I am buying and then they decide to do the same and Im okay with that.


Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2017, 11:47 AM »
Hopefully this will be talked about at the pow wow @Tyler C is going to later this month.

And , there will be a formal response from upper management. 

I wouldn't hold my breath though.   [unsure]    My guess is FT will continue to sweep this under the carpet and then roll out the new mini saw.  Hoping people get distracted with all the new products, and the noise generated by those.

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 168
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2017, 11:59 AM »
Hopefully this will be talked about at the pow wow @Tyler C is going to later this month.

And , there will be a formal response from upper management. 

I wouldn't hold my breath though.   [unsure]    My guess is FT will continue to sweep this under the carpet and then roll out the new mini saw.  Hoping people get distracted with all the new products, and the noise generated by those.

I think you are right.  My bet is they bring out Kapex 2.0 in the future and offer upgrades to existing Kapex owners for some substantial amount of money.

I love my Kapex.  Unfortunately, I'm just a hobbyist and I baby the thing; and my 3 year ownership period is closing soon.  So when the thing blows, I'm paying a fortune to fix a saw that I already paid a fortune for.

Festool's parent company has plenty of cash (they are buying SawStop), but they are too cheep/greedy to fix an obvious fault in the Kapex motor and/or electronics.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline Rsrflooring

  • Posts: 15
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2017, 06:54 PM »
Well finding my self in a hard spot today. In my attempt to use my old makita while awaiting for the new one, Ive started a very detail hardwood job. darn you festool. You made a great saw with awesome dust collection amd very accurate. Just put crap componets inside. tomorrow its going back on my stand. I didnt want to. But i need to. Ahhh.

Offline M Smith

  • Posts: 1
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2017, 05:35 PM »
My Kapex motor burned up for the third time in 5 years a few weeks ago !!!   In the middle of a big trim job so had to go out and buy a temp/back up which is a joke considering how much I spent on the darn thing. Sent a brief email on the Festool website contact form but have not had a reply ?????   So frustrated like all the others on here. For the hundreth time doesn't anyone else agree that NO other miter saw on the market (US) has speed control and NO other miter saw has had this kind of motor failure issue ???  Since Festool wont come clean we have to "guess" what it is and MY guess is it has to do with the speed control and that it is running thru the CT vac"s. Time will tell, well maybe ??? 

Going to rebuild the Kapex myself since i already did it after the second motor burned up and I wasn't about to pay another $100 to ship it to them, of course, only IF they send me a new armature for free ? If not, it will sit and rust.

Chomping at the bit to get the new Makita LS1019L  but even though it is listed on Amazon's site, it sez it is not available for 1 -2 mos ???  Acmetool and Toolnut both also have it on their sites for a STEAL at $509.99 and FREE shipping !!!!!!!!!! but also "not in stock" yet.  Could buy 3 of them for the price of one Kapex !!!!!  Got the feeling this new Makita slider will become the "gold standard" in the sliding miter saw industry.

M Smith   

 

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 479
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2017, 05:50 PM »
My Kapex motor burned up for the third time in 5 years a few weeks ago !!!   In the middle of a big trim job so had to go out and buy a temp/back up which is a joke considering how much I spent on the darn thing. Sent a brief email on the Festool website contact form but have not had a reply ?????   So frustrated like all the others on here. For the hundreth time doesn't anyone else agree that NO other miter saw on the market (US) has speed control and NO other miter saw has had this kind of motor failure issue ???  Since Festool wont come clean we have to "guess" what it is and MY guess is it has to do with the speed control and that it is running thru the CT vac"s. Time will tell, well maybe ??? 

Going to rebuild the Kapex myself since i already did it after the second motor burned up and I wasn't about to pay another $100 to ship it to them, of course, only IF they send me a new armature for free ? If not, it will sit and rust.

Chomping at the bit to get the new Makita LS1019L  but even though it is listed on Amazon's site, it sez it is not available for 1 -2 mos ???  Acmetool and Toolnut both also have it on their sites for a STEAL at $509.99 and FREE shipping !!!!!!!!!! but also "not in stock" yet.  Could buy 3 of them for the price of one Kapex !!!!!  Got the feeling this new Makita slider will become the "gold standard" in the sliding miter saw industry.

M Smith

@M Smith

In stock today:

https://www.burnstools.com/ls1019l-10-dual-slide-compound-miter-saw

http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/makita-ls1019l
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set | C18 5.2 Set w/Centrotec Installer's Set | RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set |  Won the CXS Li 2.6 90 Limited Edition on 06/20/2016 | Metric Parallel Guide Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | FS1400/2-LR 32 Guide Rail (x1) | LS 130 EQ | Next  Purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2017, 09:27 AM »

https://www.burnstools.com/ls1019l-10-dual-slide-compound-miter-saw


Interesting as to how the Makita is being marketed. They list 24 different features, however,  "Excellent dust extraction performance with included dust bag" is the 24th and final feature listed. [eek]

Other features such as "Rubberized D-handle", "Replaceable miter scale" & "Oversized trigger switch" appear to be more important.  [jawdrop]
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:09 PM by Cheese »

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 351
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2017, 09:41 AM »
Cheese: And your point is what ?  A comfortable grip/ trigger is not important. I guess the carpel tunnel trigger on the kapex is good enough.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2017, 10:32 AM »
Cheese: And your point is what ?  A comfortable grip/ trigger is not important. I guess the carpel tunnel trigger on the kapex is good enough.

Just an observation...I just thought it was strange to put more emphasis on an "Oversized trigger switch" than on dust collection capabilities.

Especially when Makita has copied many of the Kapex features...why wouldn't dust collection be held in higher esteem?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2017, 11:31 AM »
Why is the new Makita saw still using the screw type clamp?

I observe that many saw users (regardless of brands other than Festool) do not use their clamps as it is inconvenient to engage and disengage them for every cut. The Kapex clamps are the best (and it is silly not to use them since they are soooo expensive and well designed for quick engagement and disengagement). I use the clamp in 90% of my cuts, even for the long boards, for safety, but also because clamping ensures zero creeping or movement.

Yes, dust collection on the Kapex is the best among all mitresaws, just as the SawStop dust collection blade guard is, in the cabinet saw category.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:38 AM by ChuckM »

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 351
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2017, 02:11 PM »
99% of the time actual site carpenters building actual houses do not use the clamp. Maybe it's different for the hobbyists. That being said the makita clamp looks goofy but is quite effective as it can pivot all around and has a deeper throat than the limited fancy expensive and yes easy to clamp festool clamp. Come on it's a miter saw how often does one need the clamp. I use it mostly to clamp a sacrificial fence for small pieces or quick dados.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2017, 06:33 PM »
Come on it's a miter saw how often does one need the clamp.

Every woodworker has their different ways of doing things. About 90% of the time I use the Kapex, I use the clamp. If the piece is too short, I use a bridge-over with the clamp. Precision as well as safety is important in my work. Speed, not so much by comparison.

When I teach and use the Kapex, 100% of the time I use the clamp by myself (as a model) or with the students. No exceptions there, for safety reasons. When I teach and use the bandsaw, I use sticks so the student's hands would not pass beyond the blade, in addition to using guard and feather boards where applicable. After teaching for about 10 years, I have had zero power tool injuries record for the students under my belt.

Yes, site carpenters do all kinds of things I wouldn't dare try. When my contractor roofers used their saws without push sticks, guards, etc., it was not my call to tell them to how to do it. (I did insist in writing they use safety harnesses on the roof. In writing as part of the contract). When my deck was rebuilt, I saw guys using their nailers and contractor saws without wearing ear or eye protection, it was none of my business to show them how they should use their tools. When the flooring guys did the hardwood flooring for my neighbor, they made angle cuts with their hands so close to the blade that I told my neighbor they were playing Russian Roulette. 

Personally, I consider the mitre saw the second most dangerous tool -- followed by the jointer and bandsaw -- in my shop. Others may think otherwise. I have seen well-known woodworkers on videos placing their hands inside the zone marked dangerous on the table. I am not them.


« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 10:28 PM by ChuckM »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2017, 06:43 PM »
This discussion has come up before and I remember Chuck being a champion of a clamp.

But the fact remains that most people don't use one.  Many saws don't ship with them, and most outlets don't even carry them as accessories for the brands that offer them.

I myself prefer to not have to pay for an item I'll never use.  If you like and use them great. Buy all you want , but don't penalize the rest of us.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2017, 07:02 PM »
Buy all you want , but don't penalize the rest of us.

?

???

I didn't suggest every mitre saw must be sold with a clamp. Festool -- not me -- bundles its Kapex with a  clamp.

I'd love to have one more, but the price tag ($80 at that time?) was too deep for me. If Festool sold a second one as an option with the new saw for $40, I would have bought one more for sure. Didn't they say you can never have enough....
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 10:27 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2017, 07:50 PM »
For almost 30 years I owned and used 2 Milwaukee mitre saws. Over that time I used the supplied Milwaukee clamp at the most 15-20 times.

And then I bought a Kapex...because of the wacky off-cut issues and throwing small pieces of wood, I use the Kapex clamp 90% of the time. I'm not afraid of the saw, but I do get startled when a piece of wood gets bounced off the saw or blade guard. The last thing I need is to become startled by the noise and move my hand into the spinning blade...the clamp prevents that from happening.  [cool]

And I'm certainly not a safety freak as I usually drive a motorcycle without a helmet and the blade guard/splitter on my Bosch 4000 series table was removed 10 years ago.  [tongue]

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1292
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2017, 08:59 PM »
After I bent a Festool blade on my Kapex I started using a ZCF (zero clearance fence) to minimize projectiles. I wasn't getting 90 degree cuts so I placed the blade on a piece of granite and used my feeler gauges to find out  that the blade wasn't  flat.


266034-0

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2017, 11:28 PM »
What I'm saying is I prefer companies that don't bundle accessories (that most people don't use) into the price of their machines. 

You don't think FT is giving the clamp away ? 

Having them as additional cost accessories is the fairest way. You can buy them because you want one , or need them to so,be a design flaw. But I don't have to pay for one when I feel they are of no value.   


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2017, 11:41 PM »
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It cuts both ways. If a clamp wasn't part of the deal, people could challenge or criticize it as being an incomplete saw for that kind of price (assuming it took out the clamp and lowered the price to, say, $1400).

Bundled or not, I look at the total cost and the benefits before I decide on a purchase.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #84 on: July 28, 2017, 09:42 PM »
 Earlier today I stopped into my local woodcraft and in the process of purchasing a few accessories I offhandedly asked if anyone had heard of the Kapex burning up issues.  Neither one of the sales associates had heard anything about it.  This particular woodcraft is the largest distributor of Festool in my area. How is it possible that they had not heard about this?

I was working with a another Festoolian today and his saw went up in smoke after  about a year and a half. It was repaired under warranty he and he maintains it is because the saw was not designed to be plugged into the CT 26 outlet. Now he uses a remote starter switch with two independent cords, one powers the vacuum and the other powers the saw.  Each cord from the switch is routed to its own 20A circuit.

 When I mentioned the issue with my coworker to the woodcraft sales associates they both said that their demonstration saw has been plugged into the CT vacuum for its entire life and they have had no problems with their demonstration saw.  This particular saw is used daily to cut millwork for customers and for classroom activities. It likely does not get the same use as a contractor would give it, but this particular unit they said is 10 years old and they have had no problems with it.

 I am beginning to think that when the Kapex became popular about five years ago, festool changed internal components and this has led to the failures.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 06:41 AM by Naildrivingman »
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline kdzito

  • Posts: 314
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2017, 06:30 AM »
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It's a secret but Festool will give you a free lunch at Festool Connect!
Building one day at a time.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3402
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2017, 08:11 AM »
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

For almost 30 years I owned and used 2 Milwaukee mitre saws. Over that time I used the supplied Milwaukee clamp at the most 15-20 times.

And then I bought a Kapex...because of the wacky off-cut issues and throwing small pieces of wood, I use the Kapex clamp 90% of the time. I'm not afraid of the saw, but I do get startled when a piece of wood gets bounced off the saw or blade guard. The last thing I need is to become startled by the noise and move my hand into the spinning blade...the clamp prevents that from happening.  [cool]

And I'm certainly not a safety freak as I usually drive a motorcycle without a helmet and the blade guard/splitter on my Bosch 4000 series table was removed 10 years ago.  [tongue]
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2017, 09:15 AM »
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

...

It is interesting, I always wear one.
But when skiing, when one wears googles for racing when they wear sunnies for regular skiing it changes the experience a lot.

In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.
The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense". Maybe they are more conscience, or maybe the car drivers are more aware, or maybe the cyclist are more careful and cautious.

If you plan on crashing, then a helmet is clearly a good idea.

Motorcycle have the benefit of being faster than push-bikes, so when it all goes "pear-shaped" it happens faster and with more force and energy.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2017, 09:21 AM »
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It's a secret but Festool will give you a free lunch at Festool Connect!

I know they hand out T-shirts, stickers and at some events (Connect?), even systainers, too!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 10:47 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 796
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2017, 10:03 AM »

In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.
The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense".

It's not the incidents of accidents but the severity of head injuries that should be compared.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5496
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2017, 10:39 AM »
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2017, 10:51 AM »

The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense".

Sure about this???

How to prove that? It is like saying using a tablesaw without any safety precautions (no guards, splitters, etc.) would reduce the incidence of accidents.

I can understand that a biker or tabelsaw user might exercise more precaution in such circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily result in lower incidence of accidents than when a helmet or guard is used, as for example, a motor cycle accident can be caused by other users of the road, whether or not a biker wears a helmet.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 11:30 AM by ChuckM »

Offline PatR

  • Posts: 184
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2017, 11:36 AM »
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]

Uhm, no there isn't.  [blink]

It is recommended that you wear a cycle helmet in Denmark but it is neither the law or obligatory. Just like The Netherlands.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5496
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2017, 01:55 PM »
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]

Uhm, no there isn't.  [blink]

It is recommended that you wear a cycle helmet in Denmark but it is neither the law or obligatory. Just like The Netherlands.

Interesting how some people seem to jump from motorcycle to bicycle. There's a difference, you know. Maybe read a bit back.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2017, 02:04 PM »
Squirrel
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3554
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2017, 02:41 PM »
When I was riding motorcycles, I always wore a helmet.  anybody who rode on my bike was required to wear a hlmet.
I had a young man orking for me who loved to rid.  I allowed him to ride only if he wore a helmet, which, BTW, I supplied.  One day he got cut off head on by a driver making an illegal left turn at a traffic light.  My helper ended up with a dislocatd shoulder,a stretched knee ligament and an undamaged head.  He thanked me for the undamaged head.  I told me that he felt and heard his helmet banging along the side of the car. He told me his helmet might have hit the side of the car at least 5 or six times. He and his newly wed wife were happy that he was still alive.  They attributed that to having worn a helmet.  Just one life saved makes it worth while to me to have insisted.  I no longer ride motorcycles.  My children and grandchild do ride.  AND they all wear helmets when riding.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2017, 02:54 PM »
In my province, one must wear an approved motorcycle helmet when operating a power bicycle/motorcycle.

In addition, 6 years ago, the government made it mandatory for bicycle riders under 18 to wear helmets. Safety experts were applauding the legislation, citing studies "which show helmets reduce head injuries in cycling crashes by 90 per cent."


Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2017, 09:44 PM »
Rabbit
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2017, 11:30 PM »
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

Hey Edward...it probably goes back to when I first started riding bikes when I was around 15. At that time, light weight/high strength plastics were not yet available (or maybe even invented) at a reasonable consumer price. The norm was hand laid fiber glass mat and resin. This led to a strong but very heavy helmet.
I preferred a half helmet for dirt biking and a full helmet for street biking.
The half helmet was manageable but the full Bell Star helmet was extremely heavy. It also had limited peripheral vision. To make matters worse, at speeds over 30 mph, air pressure would build inside the helmet and attempt to pull the helmet off your head, straining your neck.
So, between the weight at lower speeds, and the extreme lifting forces at higher speeds along with the decreased peripheral vision, the full Bell Star helmet became a non-starter for me. I found I was more aware of traffic conditions and better able to be out of harms way without a helmet as opposed to with a helmet.

Interestingly enough, I've always worn a helmet for dirt biking and have always worn gloves, jeans and a long sleeved shirt or leather jacket for street riding. The helmet just messed with my visual and aural sensitivities when it came to street riding.
I do use a full face helmet when riding on the interstate...go figure.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3402
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2017, 06:38 AM »
Ah, that makes more sense. 

Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

Hey Edward...it probably goes back to when I first started riding bikes when I was around 15. At that time, light weight/high strength plastics were not yet available (or maybe even invented) at a reasonable consumer price. The norm was hand laid fiber glass mat and resin. This led to a strong but very heavy helmet.
I preferred a half helmet for dirt biking and a full helmet for street biking.
The half helmet was manageable but the full Bell Star helmet was extremely heavy. It also had limited peripheral vision. To make matters worse, at speeds over 30 mph, air pressure would build inside the helmet and attempt to pull the helmet off your head, straining your neck.
So, between the weight at lower speeds, and the extreme lifting forces at higher speeds along with the decreased peripheral vision, the full Bell Star helmet became a non-starter for me. I found I was more aware of traffic conditions and better able to be out of harms way without a helmet as opposed to with a helmet.

Interestingly enough, I've always worn a helmet for dirt biking and have always worn gloves, jeans and a long sleeved shirt or leather jacket for street riding. The helmet just messed with my visual and aural sensitivities when it came to street riding.
I do use a full face helmet when riding on the interstate...go figure.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 351
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2017, 08:18 AM »
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2017, 08:21 AM »
Sorry, had other non-forum stuff to do.

How about we get back on topic please.

Thanks.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Jozsef Kozma

  • Posts: 111
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2017, 09:42 AM »
No sorry needed Peter

Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4594
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2017, 11:25 AM »
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.

Threads as long and big as this go off a bit, so what.

Please stop making it seem like it's some coordinated, nefarious effort by Festool. If it were this topic would not exist and every negative thing would be deleted, including yours.

My lord do we want a fun place to talk, or do we just want a data base with information? Humans dont talk without veering off subject  a bit. From my perspective we were 10 posts away from moderator intervention.

Lets keep it fun.

That being said I sent 3 Kapex back, but they NEVER had a motor issue. Actually, other than this forum I never heard about a motor issue  and I know at least 5 people that own them. I could never get my hands on a broken one here in IL.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:28 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 169
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2017, 11:36 AM »
Well said Dovetail65 !
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2017, 11:41 AM »
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.


Yes, that's it, you've nailed it!   Why just this morning the execs were messaging me to let this topic run wild! That way no one will notice the ten million topics on Kapex problems.  [blink]

    I have never been instructed by Festool to do anything different or particular with the Kapex problems topics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are a ton of topics that go OT that we don't bother trying to keep on track.  There are a number of reasons we might try putting a thread back on topic. Sometimes it is at the OP's request, very commonly it is because the topic is headed into a discussion that is not allowed on FOG or because members are starting to take shots at each other. Or a new member is trying to find out some piece of info without a lot of clutter. Sometimes it is because something interesting or that  hasn't been discussed to death   is going to get buried by the OT.

    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 351
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #106 on: July 31, 2017, 12:20 AM »
Srsemenza. I guess sarcasm is above your pay grade. 😏

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2017, 08:46 AM »
I stumbled over this slashdot comment about a marketing approach to 'problematic' products (in the story about how microsoft had been blaming intel for its own bad surface drivers):
Quote
Customers who spend more on premium products tend to be more satisfied even when they are unreliable because they need to justify their own decision-making process.

Yep, this is a very well-known effect. I remember discussing this in a marketing class, and it's why you can find a lot of high-status consumer goods that are not very, umm, good.

Our instructor even quipped: if you that know your product is likely to have a high return rate, you're better off seriously overpricing it and spending extra attention on styling and marketing. People generally hate to admit to being taken and will keep it to themselves. They're more likely to act like the product is everything they expected it to be, sometimes even to the point of telling their friends how great it is. This tendency will lower your rate of returns and will reduce the amount of bad press and word-of-mouth you'll get.

Marketing is a sleazy business.

 ::)

Made me think about several discussions here (problems with certain tools) and lead me to the question about the extend customers actually can be manipulated that way. Does this strategy really work relieably enough to actually be employed on a wider scale?

And if the answer to the last question is 'yes': how to defend oneself (and others) against such attacks against the brain?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:51 AM by Gregor »

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 57
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2017, 12:32 PM »
    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   
  Come on, does anyone really believe that the higher ups at Festool even know this forum exists ?  They don't care, they got our money when we bought the tool and they are making money when we send it in for repair, its all good for them and they don't care this forum exists.  I do agree that if they wanted to bury the problems they would talk to FOG admins and the threads would be killed, but they don't even know there is a FOG or a problem.  That is how it works at big companies, by the time you get up the ladder you just know, company made this much or lost this much, the actual reason for profit is not important and if its a loss, its time for new managment, not a fix to the real problem.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 152
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2017, 01:51 PM »
I stumbled over this slashdot comment about a marketing approach to 'problematic' products (in the story about how microsoft had been blaming intel for its own bad surface drivers):
Quote
Customers who spend more on premium products tend to be more satisfied even when they are unreliable because they need to justify their own decision-making process.

Yep, this is a very well-known effect. I remember discussing this in a marketing class, and it's why you can find a lot of high-status consumer goods that are not very, umm, good.

Our instructor even quipped: if you that know your product is likely to have a high return rate, you're better off seriously overpricing it and spending extra attention on styling and marketing. People generally hate to admit to being taken and will keep it to themselves. They're more likely to act like the product is everything they expected it to be, sometimes even to the point of telling their friends how great it is. This tendency will lower your rate of returns and will reduce the amount of bad press and word-of-mouth you'll get.

Marketing is a sleazy business.

 ::)

Made me think about several discussions here (problems with certain tools) and lead me to the question about the extend customers actually can be manipulated that way. Does this strategy really work relieably enough to actually be employed on a wider scale?

And if the answer to the last question is 'yes': how to defend oneself (and others) against such attacks against the brain?

The term of art is expectation bias and it is arguably the reason the scientific process was needed.  The psychology behind it is that our expectations (due to word of mouth, appearances, what we paid, shiny bling, whatever...) strongly color our experiences.  So if I pay a buttload for something and its pretty and shiny and other people tell me how great it is, I will ignore my actual experience and allow my expectations to bias it.  In its ultimate incantation it has people feeling good about overpaying for things because of the exclusivity of being able to overpay!  Caveat emptor!

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2017, 05:58 PM »
I can assure you that the higher ups of FESTOOL know about this forum.  CHRISTIAN who is the CSO or CEO (depending on who is writing what) was instrumental in the development and growth of this forum while he was based in the US.  He and I have had conversations regarding the forum within the last year and yes, he does regularly read posts.  So do others and they have been doing that for years.

Peter

    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   
  Come on, does anyone really believe that the higher ups at Festool even know this forum exists ?  They don't care, they got our money when we bought the tool and they are making money when we send it in for repair, its all good for them and they don't care this forum exists.  I do agree that if they wanted to bury the problems they would talk to FOG admins and the threads would be killed, but they don't even know there is a FOG or a problem.  That is how it works at big companies, by the time you get up the ladder you just know, company made this much or lost this much, the actual reason for profit is not important and if its a loss, its time for new managment, not a fix to the real problem.
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2017, 06:11 PM »
Peter Halle link
"I can assure you that the higher ups of FESTOOL know about this forum.  CHRISTIAN who is the CSO or CEO (depending on who is writing what) was instrumental in the development and growth of this forum while he was based in the US.  He and I have had conversations regarding the forum within the last year and yes, he does regularly read posts.  So do others and they have been doing that for years.

Peter"



Other business leaders would die to have the kind of frank feedback -- even though sometimes less friendly or less courteous -- that this Forum has been collecting. I would be very surprised that Festool executives or designated managers would not be monitoring the comments expressed in this Forum. Companies -- banks, automakers, retailers (A&W, MacDonald's, etc.), fashions -- pay outside agencies to collect customer feedback on their behalf and the information they collect is not even as rich as that we see here in the Forum.

Other tool vendors or makers go to woodworking forums to scan and collect information relating to their companies (products, customer service, etc.) so they know what the endusers are saying about them. Woodworking magazines do the same. That is why they join the social media, too, to get in touch with customers in a way that the traditional channels (emails, telephone and snail mails) cannot replace.

In the old days (pre-Internet), the company I worked for had a dedicated dept. (Public Relations & Publicity) that monitored the press, columnists, customer complaints, service feedback and other community channels. Each morning, we received the "Digest" prepared by them covering news, service development and legislation relating to our industry so we all knew more about the outside world around us when we made our internal executive decisions. The people working to collect information were full-time head counts mostly with journalism, business or market survey and research backgrounds. We were just about to incorporate emails in our system in those days.

One more thing: I also had a Manager coordinating and handling complaints, regardless of the nature of them. This way, the complainant had only one party to deal with. The Manager redirected the complaints to the relevant dept or managers as he saw fit. Outsiders didn't know or didn't want to know how your internal system worked and so we put in place one person (at a managerial level) as their contact point.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:28 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52 AM »
Holy smokes my less then 2 year old Kapex died yesterday. I just joined this forum and I can't believe that with blades I've got over 2000$ in a piece of junk. I'm semi-retired, I sell stuff on Etsy. This saw went from the box to a bench and mostly cuts Cedar 9 months out of the year. It has less then a years worth of professional use. I've had to replace the brushes twice already and I noticed it sounded a little funny but I though it had to be my imagination because cognitive dissonance was not allowing my brain to wrap around the fact my 1500$ miter box was already taking a dump. Sure enough yesterday it stopped working, if you smack the top of the handle it will work for awhile but also I noticed yesterday before I stopped using it I made 16 cuts in repetition on 1/2"x 2 1/2" white pine and the motor housing was too hot to touch. I unplugged it and finished the job with another saw. This saw is literally self destructing.This is really shoddy. I have been stolen from. I was a professional woodworker for 30 yrs. and my Dewalt DW708 lasted 25 of those years without one problem.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2017, 12:36 PM »
Arthur - sorry to hear about your trouble.

You should probably just send it back to Festool to have it repaired under warranty and then place it for sale, recouping most of your money. 

You can read about Makitas new saw , which by all early accounts is just about as good as kapex.  Yet, costs roughly 1/3 the price.

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2017, 12:46 PM »
Yep, I have to find out if it's still under warranty and hopefully get it fixed and sell it. I bought the new Makita this morning for a little over 500$.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2017, 12:50 PM »
Yep, I have to find out if it's still under warranty and hopefully get it fixed and sell it. I bought the new Makita this morning for a little over 500$.

Three year warranty. When did you buy it?

Seth

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2017, 01:10 PM »
Omg, I bought this 9/3/16. It's barely a year old. Wow, in my whole professional career I've never had a tool be more babied and self destruct this fast. I've got to get this fixed and I want it out of my shop as quickly as possible. You charge 1475$ for this. Shame.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2017, 01:17 PM »
Omg, I bought this 9/3/16. It's barely a year old. Wow, in my whole professional career I've never had a tool be more babied and self destruct this fast. I've got to get this fixed and I want it out of my shop as quickly as possible. You charge 1475$ for this. Shame.

So contact Festool  888-337-8600 .

Seth

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2017, 05:31 PM »
Holy smokes my less then 2 year old Kapex died yesterday...

The evidence of smoke is anything but holy.
But the following does have a religious fervour.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #119 on: October 03, 2017, 09:14 PM »
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #120 on: October 04, 2017, 09:55 AM »
anyone else hear that song by Queen playing in the background ?    [wink]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 495
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #121 on: October 04, 2017, 10:34 AM »
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.

20A or 15A circuit would never make a difference nor should material for the cost of this saw. Also, no need to back up your failure with justifications as to why it should not failing, as there is no excuse for any of them failing. Hopefully with your posting and those by many other people with failures will prevent others from buying them and suffering through a failure. It is obvious Festool has no intention on resolving the issue so the only option is to look elsewhere for a mitre saw.

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 859
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #122 on: October 04, 2017, 03:09 PM »
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick

Offline Harry1561

  • Posts: 39
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #123 on: October 04, 2017, 03:21 PM »
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick
I'm with Mick on this one, love the kapex and work it hard too.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #124 on: October 04, 2017, 03:40 PM »
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick
I'm with Mick on this one, love the kapex and work it hard too.


I’ll bet both of you guys have 230 volt models?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #125 on: October 04, 2017, 05:11 PM »
of course they do  ::)

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #126 on: October 04, 2017, 07:44 PM »
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.

20A or 15A circuit would never make a difference nor should material for the cost of this saw. Also, no need to back up your failure with justifications as to why it should not failing, as there is no excuse for any of them failing. Hopefully with your posting and those by many other people with failures will prevent others from buying them and suffering through a failure. It is obvious Festool has no intention on resolving the issue so the only option is to look elsewhere for a mitre saw.

I guess I justify only because of the stories I've heard from others who have had failures. Im of the mindset that FT could potentially look for end user fault as a loophole.  I'm going to go one step further when my saw returns.  I will be looking for two independent sources of power and running my CT off a demand switch.  I will no longer be powering the Kapex from the CT.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #127 on: October 04, 2017, 08:29 PM »
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 907
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #128 on: October 04, 2017, 08:49 PM »
  Well the 230v Kapex isn't exempt from going bad. Quite a few reports on the fog over the years about it, just seems the majority of Kapex's burning up seem to be 110v.
 It would be interesting to know what the ratio of sales between 230v & 110v Kapex's is. I would have thought that the 110v Kapex would have been in the minority.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #129 on: October 04, 2017, 09:05 PM »
of course they do  ::)

You don’t know that...they could be 110/120 models used with a tranny. For a proper analytical evaluation, (which we are all dying to perform on any Kapex thread) we need to know the actual facts...not just the assumptions.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #130 on: October 05, 2017, 06:47 AM »
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined power consumption of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.

I work with another Kapex owner and he runs his system off two independent power sources with a demand switch.  My warrantee clock will expire in about a year. I have to assume that since FT has not commented on a solution, they are simply replacing defective parts with parts from stock that may share the same defect.  I have to do everything I can to prevent this from happening again.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 08:26 PM by Naildrivingman »
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline VW MICK

  • Posts: 859
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #131 on: October 05, 2017, 01:21 PM »
Hi

Mine is a 110v one

And it's plugged into one of my 110v sockets in my dado trunking wich  is fed of a 5kva transformer  using the (I think 16ah plug the larger one if anyone can clarify)

All my festools are 110v apart from a couple that are not available

Mick

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #132 on: October 05, 2017, 04:33 PM »
I got my Kapex back today. Customer service was flawless. Took 1 week to get it back. keep in mind it's 13 months old and I'm semi-retired, saw stays in my garage and light use, and the saw is plugged into it's own 30amp breaker 15' from the breaker box. Here is the list of things they replaced, leg spring, end shield, brush holder and brushes, field assembly, gear housing. This saw was really messed up. The day it went out I bought the Makita LS1019L for 517$ and free shipping. I'm keeping the Makita and immediately selling the Kapex. One good thing is that you can buy a bushing so you can use the Kapex blades on a standard 5/8 arbor. I've got 7 Kapex blades so I'm happy I can use them on the Makita.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 581
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #133 on: October 05, 2017, 05:37 PM »
Here is the list of things they replaced, leg spring, end shield, brush holder and brushes, field assembly, gear housing.
According to EKAT this covers the complete motor assembly, except the covers and the electronics board.
Quote
This saw was really messed up.
My guess is that, unless the thing literally exploded the last time you used it (which I guess you would have noticed), they simply replaced it in total to be able to study it in detail as a whole (send it to a lab or back to the mothership, whatever - without keeping you waiting) in their quest to find the root cause of the problem.
Which I would chalk off as a very good idea.

Another guess is, as they don't employ slaves, that replacing the assemblies in full could be effectively cheaper than having to disassemble them.

But my money is on the first as it wouldn't make sense to replace (or even disassemble) the gear housing just to fix an electricial problem in the rotor or the field packet - pulling the motor including the end shield should be possible without removing the gear housing from the machine at all (unless I overlooked something).

Bottom line: you basically have, from a technical standpoint, a brand new saw.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #134 on: October 05, 2017, 05:51 PM »
//
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined amperage of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.
...

A GFI (aka RCID) will trip fast when it sees unequal current.

However many breakers will run forever on 100%. It is 200% that makes them trip quick, and 125% can take a while.
Or at least it is true for mobile breakers.

Whether the vacuum draws full current during startup and whether the Kapex draws full current at startup would need to be measured.

Once they are up to speed then the Kapex should draw SFA, and the vacuum something way less than full rated power.

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2017, 08:57 AM »
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined power consumption of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.

I work with another Kapex owner and he runs his system off two independent power sources with a demand switch.  My warrantee clock will expire in about a year. I have to assume that since FT has not commented on a solution, they are simply replacing defective parts with parts from stock that may share the same defect.  I have to do everything I can to prevent this from happening again.

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.

I don't see how using the CT would burn up the Kapex.  If anything I would think it would burn up the CT.  I seriously doubt that it's a power supply issue.

Regardless of what's causing these failures it still comes down to a design flaw.  If other manufacturers can produce saws that last forever while being beaten to death then there's absolutely NO reason that a Kapex should die in a shop!!!!!!!

I love my Kapex but all these accounts of them dying make me too nervous to trust it.

My opinion is that Festool is foolish to have let this go on soooo long!  Their prices are too high already and they continue to raise them every year.  They justify this by how reliable and dependable their precision tools are.  I have a good bit of Festool tools so I do find value in them.  However, I've also stopped buying them.  This Kapex problem made me realize that Festool tools just might not last long enough for me to justify the HIGH price.  It's a shame because they really are terrific tools.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2017, 11:26 PM »
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity.
...

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.
...

I thought is is nominally 120v, with the allowable 110-125.
http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #137 on: October 07, 2017, 07:10 PM »
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity.
...

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.
...

I thought is is nominally 120v, with the allowable 110-125.
http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges

That's why I wrote "caveman knowledge".

I was under the impression that American voltage is assigned a nominal voltage of 110 volts, with 120 being on the upper end of the scale.  That's why I used 110 as the divisor.  I've checked voltage at outlets a few times and I don't recall readings at or above 120.  Generally I see readings in the upper hundred-teens (116, 117, 118...)
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline overanalyze

  • Posts: 410
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #138 on: October 07, 2017, 07:23 PM »
My area has high voltage...consistently reads 125+/- ....actually wonder if that is part of the problem??...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 796
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #139 on: October 07, 2017, 08:33 PM »
What readings do you get at the wall outlet that the saw is plugged into when the saw is under load?

Offline overanalyze

  • Posts: 410
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #140 on: October 07, 2017, 09:33 PM »
What readings do you get at the wall outlet that the saw is plugged into when the saw is under load?
I don't know. I have never tested that. I can on Monday and see what it reads.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 152
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #141 on: October 07, 2017, 10:31 PM »
Nominal voltage in my area runs 120-125V.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #142 on: October 07, 2017, 11:10 PM »
Hey 👋 Naildrivingman,
Voltages on the east side of the Mississippi run 119-121.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #143 on: October 07, 2017, 11:54 PM »
My area has high voltage...consistently reads 125+/- ....actually wonder if that is part of the problem??...

No! not usually.

Too low of voltage generally translates to more current, and current gets converted to heat.
Hence brown-outs are generally a bigger issue.

If the mechanism was some arcing between windings then more voltage is not better. But a 230v motor would have move more voltage than a 110v.

The best people to investigate the issue is Festool, but I am not sure where they are at with it.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #144 on: October 08, 2017, 12:08 AM »
The best people to investigate the issue is Festool, but I am not sure where they are at with it.

I’m not sure Festool knows where they’re at with it. I was told several years ago by a Festool
rep that corporate was well aware of the problem, even whincing when the subject matter came up in conversation, however they didn’t have a solution. That does not bode well for this issue.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #145 on: October 08, 2017, 12:46 AM »
Some people claim that the US power grid, and world power grid in general, is the most complex system invented by man.
I saw this on some documentary, and the argument seemed compelling.
It is definitely beyond caveman level of understanding, but the documentary was easy enough to follow and started with N. Tesla, Westinghouse, and Edison.

The fact that most other tools seem to work being attached to the power grid, would imply that the power grid is not broken.

When someone suggests looking at the power grid, and knowing that the power grid is complex, seems like a roundabout message.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #146 on: October 08, 2017, 01:26 AM »
The fact that most other tools seem to work being attached to the power grid, would imply that the power grid is not broken.

When someone suggests looking at the power grid, and knowing that the power grid is complex, seems like a roundabout message.

Amen 🙏 Holmes...

Fact is, miter saws have been produced for the last 30+ years. They’ve been used to cut everything from concrete to steel.  Some people have waited for them to come up to speed before cutting while others have not. Some people have cut treated lumber while others have cut trim. They all just work, and their lifetime as measured in the construction industry is usually measured in years not months.

It’s just a saw people...for the life of me I can’t get my head around why fixing the Kapex issues is such a non-sequitur. Support the base of people that helped you gain name recognition in the first place. Without your base, you’d still be Protool.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #147 on: October 08, 2017, 07:40 AM »
Hey 👋 Naildrivingman,
Voltages on the east side of the Mississippi run 119-121.
Ok
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline JNComplete

  • Posts: 10
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #148 on: October 08, 2017, 04:43 PM »
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.

I totally agree here. Mine has Just been returned, my local lumber yard dealt with it for me. Was fed up with festool, I was hoping they would wave the standard purchase the box and shipping label deal. No such luck. Haven’t gone to pick it up yet. My makita LS1018 cost me $375 on Amazon and it’s great. Lightweight- good DC and cuts Quality rivals Kaoex. My kapex has now been to their repair location three times - twice for the armature. and this time the warranty is expired. But they know it’s not a random or rare problem here. To say I’m upset is to sugar coat it. I’ll be paying over $300 to get it back and I will also be responsible for the shipping charges. I’m ready to form a group of people here and some attorneys and go for a class action lawsuit. Blatant neglect of addressing a known problem with a product and continuing to sell the same tool to the public is just cause.  [mad]
Jonathan
Kapex, Domino 500, CT 26, 1400 series, LR 32, ETS 125(2)

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #149 on: October 23, 2017, 11:12 AM »
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2017, 01:23 PM »
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.

Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex.  There’s a growing market for high end miter saws in wood working.  It would be nice to a high quality Kapex competitor.  The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1151
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2017, 02:31 PM »
Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex. 
I'm sure it will be as effective as writing to Festool to see if they'll fix that Kapex motor. Eureca! Let's not write, let's start a thread about it on a Festool forum... Oh, wait...
[big grin]
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 03:36 PM by Svar »

Offline serge0n

  • Posts: 7
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2017, 02:43 PM »
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2017, 05:29 PM »
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.

Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex.  There’s a growing market for high end miter saws in wood working.  It would be nice to a high quality Kapex competitor.  The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2017, 05:57 PM »
Nobody knows here for a fact (including myself) that Festool doesn't have something in the pipeline.  Same thing for Mafell.  It takes years to develop a tool so in my estimation only time will tell.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2017, 08:00 PM »

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2017, 09:22 PM »

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth

Seth,

In a lot of ways it’s hard to understand Festool’s response to the issues to the Kapex.  They customer willing to drop $2000 on a miter saw, isn’t going to hesitate to spend $2500 on the vacuum clamp, $2000 grand on the Domino, $1000 on a Track Saw, $4500 on the Edge Bander, $1300 on the OF 2200; ect...

There’s more than just a miter saw at stake.  The customer with a really sour taste in mouth over a bad Kapex experience might be spending thousands of dollars with a competitor that would have otherwise been spent on a Festool product.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2017, 10:05 PM »

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth

Seth,

In a lot of ways it’s hard to understand Festool’s response to the issues to the Kapex.  They customer willing to drop $2000 on a miter saw, isn’t going to hesitate to spend $2500 on the vacuum clamp, $2000 grand on the Domino, $1000 on a Track Saw, $4500 on the Edge Bander, $1300 on the OF 2200; ect...

There’s more than just a miter saw at stake.  The customer with a really sour taste in mouth over a bad Kapex experience might be spending thousands of dollars with a competitor that would have otherwise been spent on a Festool product.


Ummm, yeah, OK but not sure what that has to do with what I said in reply to what Holmz said?

Seth

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2017, 05:15 AM »
WOW ... this thread started in July and the KAPEX bashing is still going ... and I bet that 90% of the people commenting have never owned a KAPEX!

Regardless of the number of KAPEX failures ... over 150 additional posts on the topic on one single failure and 22,000 reads is bonkers.

It's one thing when a person that's had a genuine problem complains, but everyone else hopping on the bandwagon and bagging the product doesn't help anyone.

From the very nature of this thread and the downward spiral of so many other threads I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures and the amplified noise on the FOG is the real problem.

I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong! [wink]

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2017, 06:23 AM »
I know two other Kapex owners.  The other two have returned their saws for motor service and mine is currently being repaired.  I'm not sure that this is statistically acceptable as in this part of the world, the Kapex is a pretty rare bird. There are not a lot of owners compared to other areas.  I accept that mistakes in R&D and manufacturing happen. Once mine is returned, I will hope that the problem is resolved and it is anomalous. I will have about 1 year's worth of warrantee left. If the saw fails again (multiple failures of the same saw have been reported here on FOG) and it is beyond warrantee protection, I don't know what I will do, but suffice to say I will not be happy.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Arthur444

  • Posts: 8
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2017, 07:25 AM »
Well mine bit the dust after only 13 months. The saw only has a 58% 5 star rating on Amazon and a lot of posts from people who had blown motors. I purchased a Makita LS1019L for 517$ and it does everything the Kapex does with a 15 amp motor. Unfortunately I think the cat is out of the bag per quality issues as I can't even sell mine. I've had mine on Craigslist almost a month and it's not going anywhere.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2017, 09:44 AM »
Clearly there have been a number of legitimate Kapex problems posted on FOG.  If people want to continue spending their time debating the topic in this thread and other Kapex problem threads they are free to do so. Personally, barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else.

Seth

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 298
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2017, 11:01 AM »
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #163 on: October 24, 2017, 11:30 AM »
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

That may or may not be true.  There’s some wacky corporate laws around the world.  It’s likely Festool’s legal team will always be extemely cautious about anything being posted online.  A lot of companies around the world are ridiculously cautious these days.  They know comments made online and in social media have come to bite them in the butt when they least expect it.

Realistically there should be a recall.  A lot of companies prefer to do recalls without admitting legal fault whenever possible.

Most companies procrastinate on recalls until their 99.9% sure they have a working solution in place.   
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 11:51 AM by Steven Owen »

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2017, 03:31 PM »
I keep visiting these threads so that I can get feedback on possible replacements for the Kapex. I would have kept the Kapex forever but it’s obvious that it doesn’t last as long as other miter saws. So these threads continuing are beneficial.

It took a while to sell it on Craigslist but it did eventually sell.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2017, 04:01 PM »
My Kapex came back this past Wednesday.  Total time gone was three weeks and one day (including two weekends).  My vendor had an internal problem getting in touch with the correct department at FT, so the saw didn’t actually leave my vendor’s location until on week ago this past Tuesday.  That means in 8 days time the saw was shipped from MN to IN, unpackaged, inspected, repaired, repackaged and shipped back.

I have been somewhat vocal in my criticism of the Kapex failures.  I now need to be complementary to FT and my vendor for getting my saw resolved.

WELL DONE!!!
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2017, 06:27 PM »
Has anyone ever figured out what’s causing the failures?  Is a case of the motor overheating?  Is a mechanical issue?

Offline harry_

  • Posts: 1160
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2017, 06:56 PM »
Has anyone ever figured out what’s causing the failures?  Is a case of the motor overheating?  Is a mechanical issue?

Your tea leaves on the subject are as good as ours  [scratch chin]
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline cash_23

  • Posts: 18
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #168 on: October 28, 2017, 07:25 PM »
My company added one to the blown up list, thankfully it was during the warranty period. I Sent it back Thursday, Hoping for quick return and no further problems. We'd certainly hate to join the unfortunate ones that have had multiple problems with same saw. Also praying my personal Kapex doesn't go up in smoke too. Fingers crossed!!!

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #169 on: October 28, 2017, 07:28 PM »
Quote
I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong!

Is yours a 110v version ?   
This seems to be a favorite counterpoint for our Euro and Australasian friends who overwhelmingly have 230v versions.  The ones that don't go poof after a few years or after cutting a truckload of thin material.  [tongue]

Quote
I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures
Another counterpoint from those that don't have a saw just out of warranty facing a repair bill approaching 40% of a new one.  And remember, this is pretty much the most expensive saw on the market - so customers expect more than a few gee wiz features and saw that cuts straight.  And that their friend's saw still works.

Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?



Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #170 on: October 28, 2017, 08:04 PM »
Quote
I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong!

Is yours a 110v version ?   
This seems to be a favorite counterpoint for our Euro and Australasian friends who overwhelmingly have 230v versions.  The ones that don't go poof after a few years or after cutting a truckload of thin material.  [tongue]

Quote
I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures
Another counterpoint from those that don't have a saw just out of warranty facing a repair bill approaching 40% of a new one.  And remember, this is pretty much the most expensive saw on the market - so customers expect more than a few gee wiz features and saw that cuts straight.  And that their friend's saw still works.

Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?

I wonder if selective quoting will make it to the Olympics as a sport.  It seems to be fun, but then again how would you judge it?

Sorry for the distraction.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 561
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #171 on: October 28, 2017, 09:46 PM »
I wonder if diverting a conversation away from anything negative about Festool will be recognized as a sport also.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #172 on: October 29, 2017, 12:12 AM »


Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?

    Hey, feel free to spend however much time you like discussing Kapex issues. Never said people had to stop. But , you know, it's not like it hasn't been talked over, and over, and over ,and over.  There is more to FOG than Kapex.

    Pretty sure there are several really big billboards on FOG relating to Kapex problems. They are not going away and will show as new / unread to anyone new, and have certainly been viewed a bajillion (guesstimate) times by anyone that has been here for a while. There is more to FOG than Kapex.

    I don't take the time to do the facebook and twitter thing, but I can't imagine that Kapex hasn't been talked about on those avenues. There is more to FOG than Kapex.

Seth

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #173 on: October 29, 2017, 12:20 AM »
I wonder if diverting a conversation away from anything negative about Festool will be recognized as a sport also.

 Hey, look over there!

 Nope guess it didn't work because there is all this negative stuff about Festool on FOG. Oh well, there goes my chance for the Olympics. Then again I wasn't really trying to divert attention from anything negative about Festool. If that were the intention we could make life easy and just ......... delete it all.

Seth

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #174 on: October 29, 2017, 07:38 AM »
I agree that there has been too much negative about the Kapex.  It seems that there is something wrong with the motor given the seemingly limited market of the tool (because of price) and the number of problems noted with it.  I do question some of the other comment’s validity on issues like dust extraction and quality of cut. I personally do not share those sentiments or experiences.  My Kapex has been repaired once and I am pleased with the turnaround.  I also am one of the Pro 5 owners who had to return the tool for service.  I am pleased with that experience as well.

I own the DF 500, TS 75, 1400/2700 rails, RO 150, Carvex, T15, T18, Centrotec, CT 26 and OF 1400.  All of the tools do what I need/expect if them.  Are they the best in the world?  I don’t know.  But they are the best I can afford and that is good enough for me.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #175 on: October 29, 2017, 08:09 AM »
I noticed on the Tele last night that there was a Cheech-n-Chong movie on.
"Still smokin" was the title...
I has a slight smile and realised I was in a fog.

Offline cash_23

  • Posts: 18
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #176 on: November 01, 2017, 09:07 AM »
I too hope Festool offers recall or longer warranty or something to remedy these issues. I just had company Kapex go up in smoke. I sent it back last Thursday and just got a call this morning that it's ready for pickup. So I think that is amazing turn around and I do appreciate that!  I'm hoping it doesn't happen again especially after warranty period is up like some have had happen. Or that my personal Kapex doesn't go up in smoke too. Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #177 on: November 01, 2017, 11:06 AM »
Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.

It appears that they are replacing some units after they have been in repair once...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #178 on: November 01, 2017, 02:58 PM »
Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.

It appears that they are replacing some units after they have been in repair once...

What is this based on?

JNComplete was charged for his third repair back on 10/8.

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #179 on: November 04, 2017, 07:31 PM »
Not replacement, but I have heard of some repairs being covered by FT outside of warranty. I think this falls in to the warranty language of “at vendor’s discretion” or something to that effect.

Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3483
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #180 on: November 08, 2017, 09:48 AM »
What is this based on?

User (ljraubner) on instagram.
The saw was 9yrs. old and bought used.

JNComplete was charged for his third repair back on 10/8.

All situations are different.
Tim

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #181 on: November 17, 2017, 05:28 PM »
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.
It is physically very large, extremely heavy and the dust extraction isn't a patch on the Kapex, We had two (both brand spanking new) on hire a few years back and whilst they have bags of power the weight issue (they are the only mitre saw I've ever used which absolutely needed 2 men to carry them across site) was something everybody was concerned about. As a point of comparison, at the time I owned a Makita LS1013 and was regularly also using an LS1214 and a deWalt DW718. None of those tools was anywhere near as back breakingly awkward to move about as the Milwaukee. Haven't tried th Bosch glider, though.
 
My own Kapex (110 volt) is 16 months+ old and still working away nicely. Easily the most accurate and easy to use SCMS I've ever used, but obviously the motor issues some people have do tend to lurk at the back of my mind sometimes. Would I buy another one if this one failed - probably (but that would be that)

Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1428
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #182 on: November 17, 2017, 05:53 PM »
Sure , I've actually experienced that myself from FT for other tools.   

But I have not heard of any of that with Kapex.  And like I said earlier, two members with not far out of warranty Kapex (and previously repaired) didn't receive that consideration.

So, don't base your Kapex decision hoping they will single you out.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 11:21 AM by antss »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #183 on: November 19, 2017, 12:59 AM »
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.
It is physically very large, extremely heavy and the dust extraction isn't a patch on the Kapex, We had two (both brand spanking new) on hire a few years back and whilst they have bags of power the weight issue (they are the only mitre saw I've ever used which absolutely needed 2 men to carry them across site) was something everybody was concerned about. As a point of comparison, at the time I owned a Makita LS1013 and was regularly also using an LS1214 and a deWalt DW718. None of those tools was anywhere near as back breakingly awkward to move about as the Milwaukee. Haven't tried th Bosch glider, though.
 
My own Kapex (110 volt) is 16 months+ old and still working away nicely. Easily the most accurate and easy to use SCMS I've ever used, but obviously the motor issues some people have do tend to lurk at the back of my mind sometimes. Would I buy another one if this one failed - probably (but that would be that)

I have a DW 782 (Second Cousin to DW 780) It’s a heavy Son of a _____!  It would be hard to call it mobile by any means at 58 pounds.  I have a rolling stand that makes it manageable.  The newer Dewalts are lighter with a trade off on some durability.  It lacks the bevel accuracy of the Kapex.  I have to use Woodpeckers and Incra accessories to improve the Mark.  It ‘s held up well and been used outdoors in the winter when it’s -5 F outside without fail.

I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3402
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2017, 07:16 AM »
So far I've had no problem operating my Kapex across several winters in my unheated garage shop.  Have you heard things to the contrary?


I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2017, 07:51 AM »
Doesn't look like they made it work outside in the wintertime?  Don't tell David:



Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #186 on: November 19, 2017, 08:17 AM »
Thanks for the post Peter...cool video, haven't seen that one.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10925
  • Let's Redux / Revive / Rewind / Rollback the FOG!
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #187 on: November 19, 2017, 08:54 AM »
There is a thread here with that video.  In the thread you can read that David was not compensated for the video, and by looking at his post you can see that he DOES live and work in a cold climate.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/david-askew-integrity-construction-%27i-can%27t-afford-to-buy-bad-tools%27/

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 267
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #188 on: November 19, 2017, 10:03 AM »
Wow! He is brave...using his Kapex outdoors in such condition.

Mine is used outdoors (on my driveway) occasionally but only if it is summer, sunny and dry!

Cold climate...in the winter, my shop has an average temperature of 10 to 12C (when the heater is on) and much lower when the garage door is opened for photo-shooting purposes. On cold days (-15C and below outside), I hibernate and don't woodwork! I do all my finishing in the shop and then move the finished article indoors right away...repeat the same for every coat till it is done.

Life is much easier in the summer.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:12 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #189 on: November 19, 2017, 06:54 PM »
Wow! He is brave...using his Kapex outdoors in such condition.

Mine is used outdoors (on my driveway) occasionally but only if it is summer, sunny and dry!

Cold climate...in the winter, my shop has an average temperature of 10 to 12C (when the heater is on) and much lower when the garage door is opened for photo-shooting purposes. On cold days (-15C and below outside), I hibernate and don't woodwork! I do all my finishing in the shop and then move the finished article indoors right away...repeat the same for every coat till it is done.

Life is much easier in the summer.

I wouldn’t want to use any $2k tool that wasn’t explicitly designed to operate outdoors.   

Offline Naildrivingman

  • Posts: 362
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #190 on: November 19, 2017, 07:51 PM »
I don’t know that the Kapex is strictly a climate controlled use tool, but I do know that I do not wish to subject mine to the rigors of day in and day out general use. I bought mine strictly for fine finishing. For heavier applications, I resort to my other SCMS.

I don’t do it this way because I want to baby the Kapex, but because I want the integrity of the Kapex not to be compromised by heavy use.  If I could justify owning more than one Kapex, then I may not proceed this way.  A friend of mine owns a cabinet shop and they buy Kapex for site work.  Every year they buy a new one and the older ones get retired down the chain based on condition and accuracy.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #191 on: November 20, 2017, 12:14 AM »
A friend of mine owns a cabinet shop and they buy Kapex for site work.  Every year they buy a new one and the older ones get retired down the chain based on condition and accuracy.

FWIW...this is the same method that digital calipers exchange hands from the aeronautical industry. Once you hit that .001”-.0015” threshold, they’re put down the road. Most trades don’t need that type of precision or repeatability, so there’s a huge market for these gently used calipers.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:21 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3709
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #192 on: November 20, 2017, 12:25 AM »
I wouldn’t want to use any $2k tool that wasn’t explicitly designed to operate outdoors.

If that’s the case, you’ll be digging the footings for your new home/garage by hand.  [jawdrop]

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1151
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #193 on: November 20, 2017, 01:13 AM »
I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.
It would probably manage better than others. In freezing temperature one of the most vulnerable parts is drive belt. Unlike almost any other SCMS, Kapex 120 does not have one, it's gear driven.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 152
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #194 on: November 20, 2017, 07:51 AM »
The noteworthy risk issue with Kapex seems to be related to the adequacy of armature cooling under the higher currents seen with 120V operation.  Convective heat transfer is directly proportional to the temperature difference between the armature windings and the air temperature so Kapex armature cooling would benefit greatly from a 50F (28C) or so drop in air temperature.  I have used mine outside for several days in temperatures about freezing with no ill effects.

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 93
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #195 on: November 22, 2017, 07:04 AM »
I don’t know that the Kapex is strictly a climate controlled use tool, but I do know that I do not wish to subject mine to the rigors of day in and day out general use. I bought mine strictly for fine finishing. For heavier applications, I resort to my other SCMS.

I don’t do it this way because I want to baby the Kapex, but because I want the integrity of the Kapex not to be compromised by heavy use.
Precisely why I have a smaller deWalt SCMS for the more general sort of work where the super accuracy of the Kapex would just not be necessary

In freezing temperature one of the most vulnerable parts is drive belt. Unlike almost any other SCMS, Kapex 120 does not have one, it's gear driven.
The older Makitas (LS1013, LS1213/14, etc) also had a gear drive as do the curremt LS1016 and LS1018 models. But the bevel scales on them all are fairly illegible
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline SoonerFan

  • Posts: 331
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #196 on: November 22, 2017, 09:24 PM »
I have a Kapex and so far it is trouble free (fingers crossed).  I read this entire thread tonight hoping (but not expecting) for an update from a Festool.  Alas, seems there are still a fair number of issues (who knows how many or what percentage of units have an issue).  No response from Festool as I assumed.

For now I will go back to using my saw, hoping it’s keeps working and then check back on some of these Kapex threads in a few months.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #197 on: November 22, 2017, 09:49 PM »
I have a Kapex and so far it is trouble free (fingers crossed).  I read this entire thread tonight hoping (but not expecting) for an update from a Festool.  Alas, seems there are still a fair number of issues (who knows how many or what percentage of units have an issue).  No response from Festool as I assumed.

For now I will go back to using my saw, hoping it’s keeps working and then check back on some of these Kapex threads in a few months.



Just don’t play this track while you’re working in your shop.  It’s just bad luck.

Offline SoonerFan

  • Posts: 331
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #198 on: November 23, 2017, 08:36 AM »

Just don’t play this track while you’re working in your shop.  It’s just bad luck.

I like Queen but don’t like bad karma so will avoid that particular track  [smile]

Offline 1toolshort

  • Posts: 61
    • Big Bob's Carpentry
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #199 on: November 23, 2017, 11:01 AM »
I have been watching the Kapex scenario play out for years.  I turned my buddy onto Festool, and he's bought everything over the last few years, (not everything, but almost!!) including the Kapex.  I do more finish carpentry work than he does, but I also do decks, and basement build outs.  I found for the price of the Kapex, I bought a DWS 703, Bosch sliding 10", and a Bosch sliding 8 1/2".  I've used the 10" Bosch for almost 20 years in the shop.  The DeWalt and smaller sliding saw go out on the job.  Everything is covered that I need.  I don't want to deal with 12" runout.  That configuration covers it all.
Couldn't be happier with the Festool name tools I own.  Wouldn't do anything different.  Kinda glad I never jumped on the Kapex bandwagon.
ts-55 track saw; Rotex 125; mini vac; multi function table 3; cordless drill; domino,orbital sander 400; DWC-18

Offline shaneken50

  • Posts: 1
Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
« Reply #200 on: November 24, 2017, 01:27 PM »
We build staircases and are hauling the Kapex in and out of the truck all of the time. What I like about it is it's lite and stays true to accuracy. The best saw to date for holding up for being moved around a lot. Yes it is worth the money for what we use it for and Yes the motor is a major flaw. It has been back to the repair shop four times in three years all for the motor. One time the motor started started to smoke, two times no power to cut though a 1x, one time it came back even with lack of power after a few cuts and died. They gave me a new saw after that and  that one went back for motor problems.
  I bought through a dealership, they have been great about sending it back and were the ones that said give him a new saw. The Road Show came to town and I told them about the problem, the guy standing next to me said he had the same problem. The Road Shoe rep said their working on it, to what degree is anyone's guess. We love the saw but it has a MAJOR motor problem.