Festool Owners Group

FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool Tool Problems => Topic started by: Rsrflooring on July 01, 2017, 10:42 AM

Title: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 01, 2017, 10:42 AM
So my 2.5 year old saw has blown smoke out of the motor and stopped working for the second time in 2 years. To Festools credit the unit was repaired free of charge. They tell me this is isolated. I can see here on fog that they are noy beimg forthcoming. I highly recommend if you do work in the hardwood industry to buy something different. You'll save yourself money and a headache. I own many other festool products i am happy with. I cant find a bad initial review about this saw anywhere. Seems the issues come about 1 year later.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: PA floor guy on July 01, 2017, 12:10 PM
I too install wood floors for a living.  This past week while installing some 5" white oak, I noticed the saw starting to bog down.  Keep in mind I baby this saw, really baby it.  I would be very disgusted if it burnt up.  It's about 2 years old. 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on July 01, 2017, 12:16 PM
So my 2.5 year old saw has blown smoke out of the motor and stopped working for the second time in 2 years. To Festools credit the unit was repaired free of charge. They tell me this is isolated. I can see here on fog that they are noy beimg forthcoming. I highly recommend if you do work in the hardwood industry to buy something different. You'll save yourself money and a headache. I own many other festool products i am happy with. I cant find a bad initial review about this saw anywhere. Seems the issues come about 1 year later.

I blew all these reports of Kapex failure off as bad luck for several years thinking the users just got a lemon or may have been working them to death. Luckily it has never happened to me, but mine was purchased the day they were released in the US. I think it is time to move onto other brands for mitre saws. There are several other manufacturers to pick from. Write it up as a loss and move on. As an installer you can't afford to be without your saw.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 01, 2017, 12:51 PM
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 01, 2017, 02:42 PM
Anyone else have problems let me hear it on instagram. Use #brokenkapex
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 01, 2017, 06:01 PM
As a Kapex owner (since early 2015), I am increasingly alarmed by this and other similar reports. I wish I had known about this forum before I bought my saw! As a saw, it is, however, excellent in all aspects, from dust collection (no one else is better) to angles to clamping (I don't have any issues with its ergonomics).
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 01, 2017, 06:33 PM
I to wish i had known. I do like the saw. Just not willing to keep sinking money in it when the warranty is up.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on July 01, 2017, 09:50 PM
Oh boy...mine is coming three years old and has been babied like the OP's. I'm starting to get worried. Please pray for my saw. Thx.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 01, 2017, 10:33 PM
Praying for yours and mine!

Happy Canada Day!

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Paul G on July 02, 2017, 01:25 AM
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.
Interesting new Makita
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Oldwood on July 02, 2017, 10:07 AM
I have already decided to sell it and biy the new makita LS1019 when its available. My 7 year makita is still running strong. The new one one has gotten much better dust collection with forward rails like the kapex.

I have been looking to replace my old Hitachi miter saw and the new Makita looks like a contender. I would never consider the Kapex although I own a lot of Festool tools. The fact that Festool continues to say this is not a problem makes me wonder what kind of a company they are. [unsure]

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 02, 2017, 10:38 AM
Whats upsetting to me is that almost every comparison of mitre saws puts the KAPEX at the top. For intial testing, ease of use, dust collection yheu are right. For the ones using the saw to make money every day making hundreds of cuts in hard material, it just can't keep up. Being that is has faulty internals or is underpowered, we can only speculate because its all isolated incidents.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on July 02, 2017, 11:09 AM
Whats upsetting to me is that almost every comparison of mitre saws puts the KAPEX at the top. For intial testing, ease of use, dust collection yheu are right. For the ones using the saw to make money every day making hundreds of cuts in hard material, it just can't keep up. Being that is has faulty internals or is underpowered, we can only speculate because its all isolated incidents.

I have no idea where Festool is in their investigation on the Kapex.  I also believe that silence on this issue will hurt them long term.  But they are a large enough company to devote resources and hire consultants to do what they need to do.

That being said, I have had my Kapex since 2010 and have made a bunch of bucks with it.  If it were to die - which I don't think that it will - I would have to get an old Hitachi out of storage to get me thru.  If I had to buy a new saw would I look at a Kapex?  Possibly.  But other brands would be considered primarily and heavily.

I might be a Moderator here but I shop with my dollars.  Hopefully someone at Festool has set up a notification for when I post and they will see this.

Head slap.

Mike drop.

Peter

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on July 02, 2017, 12:56 PM
Well timed post this, my Kapex just smoked for the second time in 5 years. I wasn't going to post about it because everyone gets fed up of the Kapex bashing but since it has started up again I will join in.

Mine first burnt out when it was less then 2 years old, fixed under warranty. It has now just reached its 5th birthday, I was using it on Thursday, it made a funny noise, big puff of smoke out of the back and a really bad acrid smell just the same as the first time.

My Kapex is only used by me, normally in the workshop and certainly never pushed or used hard.

It is a great saw when it comes to extraction, accuracy and portability but the motor is certainly not fit for purpose, Festool should be fixing these saws free of charge even when out of warranty.

It's a 240v UK model so the problem is not just with the 110v American version.

I shall be calling Festool tomorrow for a chat.

Doug
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 02, 2017, 02:29 PM
Good luck with your phone call. My last few calls to repairs I spoke with Brett. After disscussing my issue and asking for some sort of resolution I?would be met with silence on the other end. Almost as he was unwilling to say anything. I asked for the tech to call me when my tool was on the work bench so I could inderstand what was happening. He took my repair order number and said they would call. Of course i was not surprised when the tool was returned fixed without getting a phone call.

I was asked the same questions. What environment i use the tool in?

How do I power the tool?

How do I make cuts?

What I am cutting?

What blades and how sharp?

I was also told this issue would likely not happen again. After that my local store got involved. They were told the issue is me not keeping the blade sharp. I have 3 that i rotate and have sharpened.

After answering all the questions and hearing that I am using the tool correctlty I was tranferred to applications. They tell me If using a higher tooth count blade , plug it into the wall and not the Ct 36. Dont cut anything wider than 3 inches.  Goodbye.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 02, 2017, 03:20 PM
Dont cut anything wider than 3 inches.  Goodbye.

Seriously?!

Did you place your call on ... April the 1st?

I am much impressed with what Peter, the G.M., wrote above. He wrote from his heart...something a lot of people won't do these days to avoid upsetting someone higher up.

Festool has been burying its head in the sand for so long on this big eye-sore, and it is time it came up with a solution for all Kapex owners, before pushing any new tools. Divert and focus any new tool development resources to curing this cancer before its reputation is damaged beyond repair.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jaybolishes on July 02, 2017, 05:22 PM
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 02, 2017, 05:57 PM
Same here. All the other tools I own from Festool, I really like.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Oldwood on July 02, 2017, 06:06 PM
The real mystery here is why they have not gotten out in front of this and done right by the people who bought these saws. I think the the cost would be less than the bad publicity this is going to cost them in the long run.

I don't know how you can equate the cost to the Festool name that this is causing but the longer it is left unresolved the harder it is going to be to overcome. [eek]

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on July 02, 2017, 06:34 PM
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.

Jay,  thank you for causing me to go and look something up! [big grin]

In an effort to be helpful  to others smh = Acronym for 'shake my head' or 'shaking my head.' Usually used when someone finds something so stupid, no words can do it justice.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Laminator on July 02, 2017, 08:28 PM
My Kapex, which only gets used occasionally, Still runs great. It is several years old (back when they were only $1300.00) and still looks virtually brand new.  I love it and hope (worriedly) that it never burns up..... but, I know of four contractors who drooled over my saw on the job and wanted one. I told them the good (which is all mine has been) and I warned them of the motor trouble that many have experienced and the lack of resolution from festool.  All these guys concluded that  there was no way on earth to justify ANY problem on such an expensive miter saw. These four guys would now be using a Kapex if not for the motor issue.  It is what it is...past time for resolution.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 02, 2017, 08:56 PM
I am really happy to see so many people discussing this. I dont complain when I have small issues. Usually I just roll with them as I did the first time the motor burned up. After my last experience I need somewhere to discuss how I feel. This has been a goos outlet and hopefully someone at Festool see these posts and the amount of views they get.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: overanalyze on July 02, 2017, 09:52 PM
I have remained silent for years on our Kapex issues. Festool service has always been great so I didnt think it was a big deal. I LOVE the saw. I bought it back in 2012 or 2013. It blew the magic smoke right under the warranty period. All shipping and repairs covered. Awesome! Then just a few months ago it did it again. All repairs covered, I paid shipping to Indy. Still very pleased!

Now...if it died again?...Not sure what I would do. I use it for work. I am a builder. It is our finish trim saw. It gets used for trim work only. We have 20 year old Dewalts that are our framing and rough use saws.

I was talking to my father about it and he has a good background in electric. I told him how they always ask about length of cords, circuit amperage, etc. The saw says it is a 120v motor. Our area has always had high voltage power. Consistently runs 125v plus. He wondered if high voltage wasnt more an issue than voltage drop.  Certainly never crosse my mind before he said it...wonder if Festool ever looked at that as a possibility...
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on July 02, 2017, 11:51 PM
The standard ISO method is that usually one makes a fishbone diagram of the mechanisms that lead to failure. Like ISO 21500, IEC 60034, ISO 1940, ISO 7919... etc... There are tons of them as well as the US 6-sigma.

They should know what is failing as well as the mechanisms that cause those parts to fail.
While magic smoke is escaping, the mechanism of failure is not magical.
There is a design or manufacturing issue that do not allow Kapex' to last the 20+ years like the dewalts... But it should not be magical or mysterious, unless it is just a perception issue.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 03, 2017, 08:40 AM
I think it's past time that @TylerC 's bosses come on here and make a statement re: this issue, non issue , or whatever they are calling it these days.

While they take a black eye around here , their overall reputation is barely scratched out there in tooldom.  Bloggers and Video reviewers keep lauding the machine, and the general public keeps buying Festools by the boat load.  Which motivates FT to do what exactly?

Now, if Tom's saw blew smoke on ToH, or Peter P.'s went tits up on an episode of the New Brit Workshop, or Popular Mechanics or Tool of the Trade ran an article - then maybe enough public pressure could be brought to bear.  But until Kapex problems lead the Google search string , I'm guessing nothing is going to happen.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on July 03, 2017, 09:15 AM
Now, if Tom's saw blew smoke on ToH, or Peter P.'s went tits up on an episode of the New Brit Workshop, or Popular Mechanics or Tool of the Trade ran an article - then maybe enough public pressure could be brought to bear.  But until Kapex problems lead the Google search string , I'm guessing nothing is going to happen.
While something like that might lead to a good thing for the ones already owning one the bottom line would be bad.

I sometimes wonder if something similiar to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5EY8oXamoM (Fight Club 'the formula') applies here...
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 03, 2017, 10:37 AM
Major publicity is just bad for a company's bottom line and image anyway you slice it up.

Problem here is , FOG is not major publicity.  And many of the members take up the cause when a complainer shows up.  They defend FT chalking it up to just plain,ol bad luck ; or saying "what are the odds?" 

And they're right.  More guys have no trouble than not.

 Except.........when you the unlucky sod whose got one of the 2.000047% that aren't supercalafrajolistic ; you're not feeling too good about that $1300-1600 you spent and for a saw that lasted 3 1/2 years.  And all those easy bevel, 12% better dust collection, 5lbs lighter, it's a system features are worthless on an electric paperweight that doesn't even turn on.

Laminator's colleagues are correct. At this price, there should be no failures.

The fix is easy: offer a 10yr warranty on Kapex and eat the cost of all those 2.00047% of saws that break.  But just like the video highlights, the financial reality is doing that makes little sense. Especially when the tools keep flying off of the shelf.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Dave Reinhold on July 03, 2017, 01:16 PM
I had a kapex repaired last year, new armature, new armature  lasted until a few days before Christmas till that one burned. Brought out my backup kapex only to have that last 5 months in the field before that armature went up in smoke.
Now I'm down 2 kapex and went out and bought the Bosch glide. Way too heaven and has a ton of blade wobble. Hoping the new makita is as nova as it looks and can be a kapex replacement. The kapex seems too fragile for everyday work. But it's so hard to find something that can come close to its accuracy and light weight.

Dave
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: rdr on July 03, 2017, 02:36 PM
I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on a Kapex120 but being a member of FOG is putting me off now. It would be for private use and wouldn't get anywhere near trade use so I worry about the possibility of it going pop outside the warranty period. I understand the complexities around Festools situation, it's a big thing to get to the bottom of issues like this and even bigger admitting it and applying remediation to an existing customer base.

If its not going to be addressed physically then I would like to see Festool offer a 10 year warranty from new on the electronics & drive train or maybe an Extended warranty option to take out at the 3rd year much like you can on cars and home appliances.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SouthRider on July 03, 2017, 03:55 PM
As a member of my local woodworkers guild I am kind of considered the "festool guy" in the group that people come to for festool advice.. This problem has already cost them 2 sales in our small group (myself and another member who was planning to buy one, but asked me for feedback).

FOG members around the world are typically Festools leading enthusiasts,and thus key influencers to many many more potential customers.

For everyone who has run around their community raving about the Domino or CXS there are probably an exponentially larger group telling people not to touch a Kapex with a ten foot pole.

One would think that Festool recognizes the influence of this key group of customers, and would respond appropriately. They obviously believe catering to the FOG makes them money, as evidenced by what they spend for the Roadshow and Connect.

Just a few thoughts..............
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 03, 2017, 05:35 PM
It would be against my conscience knowing what I know about the potential issue with the Kapex motor to recommend it unconditionally. If asked, I would say about the so many good things about the saw, BUT... is how I would continue and qualify my assessment.

To me, the time bomb can happen to anyone and it is not worth the worry in the back of the mind, given the price tag of $2,000 Cdn. If Festool came up with a permanent solution and offered a one-time $200 fix (10% of tool price), I would do it, just for the sake of peace of mind. Crowd funding, Festool?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 03, 2017, 06:17 PM
I would have remained quite on my issues had I been offered a replacement or extension on the warranty. However I was met with silence on my request. So here I am and will be doing what I can to get other potential buyers to know what I did not.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: six-point socket II on July 03, 2017, 06:56 PM
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Longhair on July 03, 2017, 08:11 PM
I've been considering a new saw for  a couple of years and festool was the primary contender. No longer, I'm afraid. For that kind of price, I can't afford the possibility. I have a few festools, but not the Kapex.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 03, 2017, 10:04 PM
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver

Good question. Anyone?

But since Festool sounds to me a typical departmentalized company, I wonder if anyone who had tried reached anything past the middle mgmt. The motor problem we have heard so much about is beyond anyone on the middle mgmt pay grade.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: neilc on July 03, 2017, 10:16 PM
Christian Oltzscher is the CEO of Festool.  Formerly ran Festool USA and is now in Germany. 

He's a member here and the reason the FOG was brought under the Festool organization many years ago.  Great guy.  You might try sending him a direct message.  I've personally had a Kapex since it was introduced with no motor issues. 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: tjbnwi on July 03, 2017, 10:33 PM
I run 2 Kapex's. Not a motor issue with either. I did have one that needed a yoke and two fences. Festool replaced them no questions asked.

The saws are run on CT's from the Midi to the 36 AC.

Tom
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: safety1st on July 04, 2017, 03:32 AM
I have a kapex and needless to say I follow these threads with much interest.

One question I have been meaning to ask is if these failures are more prevalent with newer units, vs the much older units bought around the time when Kapex was introduced. I get this feeling because several old timers seem to have no issue with their units over many many years. It is possible I am mistaken.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on July 04, 2017, 05:38 AM
It's posts like the one from Dave Reinhold that sum up the Kapex for me. I remember seeing one of his videos a few years ago in which he was raving about how good the Kapex is, 5 years and 3 armatures later he has bought something else because the Kapex motor is not fit for purpose.

Doug
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: jimbo51 on July 04, 2017, 09:46 AM
I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 04, 2017, 10:11 AM

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.


We don't know any facts about the failure rates, do we? Festool has been silent on the whole motor thing in public and that has made matters worse, because owners like me who have never had an issue with the motor have become worried, increasingly worried as our saws get older and older (passing or soon to pass the warranty period).

It would have been better if they had come out and told us the failure rates among different years of production or sales. At least some groups of owners would feel better....

We must also not forget that we are talking about one of the most expensive (costly?) tools from Festool. It is the second most expensive tool in my shop after the SawStop. As a hobbyist, I have zero concern about my SS, and I don't have any concern about my DF500 either, even we though we see some issues reported by its users here. Machines are machines and can be broken for all kinds of reasons, but the Kapex motors seem to stand out among the Kapex problems.

I like the saw, but not the uncertainty that comes with it.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 04, 2017, 11:25 AM
I asked for the next person in line to move up the chain of command.  However again my request was met wiyh silence and redirected to applications.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 04, 2017, 11:30 AM
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: tjbnwi on July 04, 2017, 11:38 AM
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.

In my case I do run the saw(s) daily. I use them for trim and framing material. I am selective of which blades I use for the tasks.

Tomorrow I will be installing 3/4 x 5-1/4" Jatoba floor.

Tom
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: six-point socket II on July 04, 2017, 03:50 PM
Hi,

There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?

Kind regards,
Oliver

I asked for the next person in line to move up the chain of command.  However again my request was met wiyh silence and redirected to applications.

Ok, so @Rsrflooring has asked via telephone to speak to someone a little higher up the food chain and wasn't forwarded/connected properly.

Anyone else? Anyone used a different method?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on July 04, 2017, 04:23 PM
I also feel the saw sitting in a work shop seeing light use is going to last much longer than the saw thats on a job making repetative cuts all day long such as I do on hardwood installs.

I have experience in trouble-shooting .

You can feel that way, but it depends on the mechanism of failure.
Bearings are different than electrical, so it depends on what has failed for a motor guru to work it out.
(In the past many have said low voltage?)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Svar on July 04, 2017, 04:30 PM
Hi,
There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?
Kind regards,
Oliver
There is no doubt they are aware of the issue. It's inconceivable that service records of a major product is not communicated to the higher management along with sales figures and other information. If the CEOs sleep through board meetings, accountants will be sure to wake them up when they notice warranty repair expenses.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: six-point socket II on July 04, 2017, 04:56 PM
Hi,
There's something I'd like to know: has anyone affected by this issue ever contacted anyone at Festool USA or Festool Germany beyond the Service Department?
Kind regards,
Oliver
There is no doubt they are aware of the issue. It's inconceivable that service records of a major product is not communicated to the higher management along with sales figures and other information. If the CEOs sleep through board meetings, accountants will be sure to wake them up when they notice warranty repair expenses.

Hi!

I have absolutely no doubt that Festool CEOs/Board Members are aware of the situation.

But since quite a couple of people affected by the issue have voiced their demands regarding the handling of the situation right here on the FOG, I'd like to know if those demands were also addressed to someone that can actually fulfill them/ sign off on them.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on July 04, 2017, 06:58 PM
The answer to the question about someone speaking to someone higher up at Festool about the Kapex issue is yes.  Although I have not had a Kapex issue I have gone as high as I can go - which is about as high as one can go.  I know of at least one other who has also gone that high.

There isn't anything from that conversation that I can share other than Festool was investigating at that time.

Peter

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Leozepolusa on July 05, 2017, 12:37 PM
Well,

I own several Festool products and was on the verge of finally dropping the cash on a Kapex when I ran into one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often.  I decided to look up the issue at FOG and immediately ran into this string.  This is a real bummer.  I do expect to use the variable speed often and will never spend $1,500 without this obvious motor issue resolved.  The fact Festool has not jumped on this with a response acknowledging the problem is very disappointing.  At 3X the cost of the competition for a machine with so many unique and useful features yet with a week powertrain is pointless.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on July 06, 2017, 12:58 AM
one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often
This is an interesting data point that could explain the issue:

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on July 06, 2017, 03:42 AM
There are thermal paints that change color at various temps. It is common to see a dab on parts.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on July 06, 2017, 05:44 AM
one review on another site about these units burning up if you run at slow speeds often
This is an interesting data point that could explain the issue:

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).

I mostly understand your point Gregor.  To clarify, could you comment on this analogy.

Are you postulating that the Kapex has a "transmission" much like a vehicle?  I think most can understand that if one attempts to drive a vehicle at high speed in 1st gear, severe damage is almost a certainty.  Where my analogy falls short in this aspect is that a vehicle will send warnings to the operator and the operator will likely not push the motor beyond "redline" for too long.  To my knowledge, the Kapex cannot do this.  A reference to heat reactive paint is such a warning, but do we know such paint is used on any power tools?

Perhaps my 120 will survive, because I cannot recall a time when I have operated it at any speed less than full throttle. I work exclusively with wood and mostly softwood.  I do not cut metal, but if I did, I would use a different saw exclusively for cutting metal.  The other protocol I follow pretty religiously is that I let the 120s motor achieve top speed before engaging the materials being cut.  I was told years ago by a fine woodworker than this activity reduces blade harmonics and results in a truer cut.  Based on Gregor's post, I theorize that the notion of allowing the motor to reach top speed, also reduces heat from the current cut to add to that from previous cuts.

So far so good for me.  My 120 is coming three years old and running well, but every time i read new "up in smoke" posts, I get a little more anxious for the future of mine.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: T. Ernsberger on July 06, 2017, 07:13 AM
With more and more manufactures coming out with new corded and corded/cordless miter saws I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next year Festool comes out the a new Kapex 120.   I think that it’s the only way to get past the troubles with the current saw.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on July 06, 2017, 08:20 AM

Setting to a low RPM dosn't reduce the electrical load when starting up or actively cutting that much, but definitively reduces the RPM of the motor fan and with that the effective amount of air that moves through the motor (this might even have the effect of changing the way the air takes through the motor, as of a different pressure differential or locations of turbulence shifting to different areas as intended).

This would pinpoint the 'up in smoke' issues as from insufficient cooling, in line with what we read about 'repeated small cuts' being an issue (which also would likely lead to heat buildup, as the motor starts often but runs only short timespans the heat from the start couldn't be fully vented and accumulate in the motor, with repeated use in quick succession).

Some interesting conjecture...if this happens to be the case and it could well be, wouldn't it just be smart of Festool Corporate to make this announcement and potentially prevent some of the issues they are facing?

Here's an excerpt from the current owner's manual:
–Switch on the machine.
–Hold the saw unit by the handle (1.1), guide slowly downwards and cut through the
workpiece at an even rate of advance.
–Switch off the machine and wait until the saw blade stops completely.

That's it, nothing about bringing the blade up to speed or small/short repetitive cuts.  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Greg M on July 06, 2017, 09:54 AM
My Kapex doesn't get much use.  I'm concerned about a $1500 saw dying on me.  I bought it with the thought that it would last a very long time like my other Festool tools are suppose to.  I'm wondering if it would be best to sell it and buy something else. 

What replacement miter saws would you guys recommend?  I use it mostly for straight and angled cuts (almost no compound cuts).  My main concern is good dust collection.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on July 06, 2017, 10:57 AM
I mostly understand your point Gregor.  To clarify, could you comment on this analogy.

Are you postulating that the Kapex has a "transmission" much like a vehicle?
No, AFAIK the motor fan runs at the same speed as the motor itself. So as the motor runs slower when you turn the speed dial down the fan will also slow down, putting load on the blade will then lead to increased current flow (as the electronic will notice the blade slowing it'll compensate) which will result in more heat released in the winding - possibly leading to a situation where the fan (as of low motor speed) dosn't manage to move the heat out of the machine quick enough so it'll build up, leading to increased resistance in the winding as of higher temperature (possibly in an area that dosn't get ideal airflow), leading to more heat buildup in the winding, ... eventually resulting in winding meltdown (or shortcut because of insulation failure).

Keep in mind: just a speculation from my side given what I have read about the Kapex issue, I havn't looked at the guts of (enough) dead ones so I can't be sure.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on July 06, 2017, 12:11 PM
Never run my Kapex on anything but full speed and it's burnt up twice, I personally think it's the lots of small quick cuts that causes the problem as that is something I would be more likely to do.

Update on my Kapex that burnt out last week.

Was going to call Festool last Friday afternoon but found service only open till 3pm on Fridays.

Called Monday and asked to speak to someone about it, told call back in an hour, they emailed me a repair form.

Called back an hour later still nobody to speak to but told if I left my number somebody would call me back so left mobile number.

I filled in repair form and emailed it off on Monday, asked for someone to give me a call in a covering email, got the standard auto reply saying thank you for email and someone would be in touch asap.

Got to Thursday (today) and no calls or emails so I gave Festool a call. A very helpful girl told me yes they had received the repair form and I was on the waiting list. "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you. FFS!

So one week on and dead Kapex still waiting for collection and Festool made no attempt to return my calls or contact me to let me know what was happening. I moved my work around this week thinking I would have saw back for next week but I will have to change my plans again.

They sell themselves on tools built for the toughest demands and superb after service but afraid at the moment I'm not seeing either of these.

Doug



Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Phil Beckley on July 06, 2017, 12:39 PM
Never run my Kapex on anything but full speed and it's burnt up twice, I personally think it's the lots of small quick cuts that causes the problem as that is something I would be more likely to do.

Update on my Kapex that burnt out last week.

Was going to call Festool last Friday afternoon but found service only open till 3pm on Fridays.

Called Monday and asked to speak to someone about it, told call back in an hour, they emailed me a repair form.

Called back an hour later still nobody to speak to but told if I left my number somebody would call me back so left mobile number.

I filled in repair form and emailed it off on Monday, asked for someone to give me a call in a covering email, got the standard auto reply saying thank you for email and someone would be in touch asap.

Got to Thursday (today) and no calls or emails so I gave Festool a call. A very helpful girl told me yes they had received the repair form and I was on the waiting list. "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you. FFS!

So one week on and dead Kapex still waiting for collection and Festool made no attempt to return my calls or contact me to let me know what was happening. I moved my work around this week thinking I would have saw back for next week but I will have to change my plans again.

They sell themselves on tools built for the toughest demands and superb after service but afraid at the moment I'm not seeing either of these.

Doug

Hi
Call me in the morning - I am in meeting but when out will call you back
Rg
Phil
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: RobWoodCutter on July 06, 2017, 01:19 PM
My view is different than most (all).

Contrary to the ads, I look at Festool products as more precision tools as oppose to construction grade tools. Can you use them in the field, yeah sure, but they seem more at home in the shop.

I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.

The difference is the precision and the dust collection.

I have had a Kapex since soon after they came out in the USA.

I always adjust the speed based on the material being cut.
I always bring the saw up to speed before cutting the material (yeah I know it doesn't say you have to but having been WW for the past 45+ years, this is common sense and mentioned in a number of tool manuals.)
I always use the Kapex as a sliding cut and never as a plunge cut. If you cut a 1x6 as  plunge cut you are engaging 6"+ inches of the blade circumference, by sliding cut you are only engaging 1" of blade circumference. You are putting more pressure on the motor by engaging more of the teeth at one time. (If I compare say the motor size on the Kapex to my 18" 5 hp delta radial saw, the 5hp motor does not care how many teeth are engage or what you are cutting.) This is similar comparison to a small motor on a tabletop tablesaw and HD motor on a cabinet saw.
You also get better dust collection by sliding because all of the sawdust is being pushed upwards and not rearward. 
I always take my time making the cut because I am looking for a clean last cut not a hacking/splittering cut a contractor saw does on a 2x4, 2x8 etc. with the expectation of sanding.
I always disconnect the hose to the Kapex and vacuum up the Kapex each day after it has been used.

The problem with Festool not responding to the Kapex issue, is we don't know how many have been sold and what percentage have had motor issues and of the ones that do have motor issues, what was the actual usage and environment. (i.e. was the saw mostly used outside in a construction environment with high humidity or in excessive dusty area with no vac attached.) If Festool were to published they have sold 50,000 Kapex worldwide and only a dozen have had motor issues is completely different that if they have sold only 200 worldwide and 50 have motor issues.

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 

Therein lies the problem of identifying what is causing the problem.

As someone with now has over $20K invested in Festool products, I would still continue to give them high marks overall....even if the my Kapex motor fries, in which case I will just order the replacement parts and fix it myself.

Rob


Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 06, 2017, 03:09 PM
I disagree , the problem with FT not responding is simply that they are NOT RESPONDING.

It has been well over a year since they acknowledged the issue. Yet no response.

And yet during that same period they have found time to develop, manufacture and market an entirely new Mitersaw ?  😳

So either they aren't capable of testing damaged and new saws ,or they have found an issue and have chosen not to respond because of the financial exposure that it places on the business.

Neither speaks very highly of company in FT's position.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: safety1st on July 06, 2017, 07:49 PM
I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.
like some one said, Festool promotes its tools as meeting the toughest demands

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 
arguably other Festool tools could go through the same harsh treatment. There must be a reason why Kapex failures are reported much more (here) than the other tools.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on July 06, 2017, 08:20 PM
There must be a reason why Kapex failures are reported much more (here) than the other tools.
Retail price vs. durability (especially where a Kapex failed repeatedly) ?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on July 06, 2017, 09:19 PM
My view is different than most (all).

Contrary to the ads, I look at Festool products as more precision tools as oppose to construction grade tools. Can you use them in the field, yeah sure, but they seem more at home in the shop.

I have Milwaukee 1/2" corded drill, circular saw, sawzall, and router that I bought 30 years ago and they have been dropped and are still running and I expect will continue to be running 30 years from now. They were made for contractor use (and abuse) and can take a beating. I don't see that in the Festool product line. I would be amazed if any of the Festool line lasted the first 30 years alone. I also had a 12" skilsaw mitre saw that I used for 20 years and gave to a neighbor 10 years ago that is still going strong. It has been dropped off a workmate table twice. But it simply does not have the precision, repeatable and cleans cuts that the Kapex has.

The difference is the precision and the dust collection.

I have had a Kapex since soon after they came out in the USA.

I always adjust the speed based on the material being cut.
I always bring the saw up to speed before cutting the material (yeah I know it doesn't say you have to but having been WW for the past 45+ years, this is common sense and mentioned in a number of tool manuals.)
I always use the Kapex as a sliding cut and never as a plunge cut. If you cut a 1x6 as  plunge cut you are engaging 6"+ inches of the blade circumference, by sliding cut you are only engaging 1" of blade circumference. You are putting more pressure on the motor by engaging more of the teeth at one time. (If I compare say the motor size on the Kapex to my 18" 5 hp delta radial saw, the 5hp motor does not care how many teeth are engage or what you are cutting.) This is similar comparison to a small motor on a tabletop tablesaw and HD motor on a cabinet saw.
You also get better dust collection by sliding because all of the sawdust is being pushed upwards and not rearward. 
I always take my time making the cut because I am looking for a clean last cut not a hacking/splittering cut a contractor saw does on a 2x4, 2x8 etc. with the expectation of sanding.
I always disconnect the hose to the Kapex and vacuum up the Kapex each day after it has been used.

The problem with Festool not responding to the Kapex issue, is we don't know how many have been sold and what percentage have had motor issues and of the ones that do have motor issues, what was the actual usage and environment. (i.e. was the saw mostly used outside in a construction environment with high humidity or in excessive dusty area with no vac attached.) If Festool were to published they have sold 50,000 Kapex worldwide and only a dozen have had motor issues is completely different that if they have sold only 200 worldwide and 50 have motor issues.

My neighbor borrowed a small in-expensive miter saw from another neighbor to work on replacing some porch rails. Instead of putting the saw on a bench or the concrete porch, he just left it sitting in the grass/dirt and even left it with just towel over it during a brief rain shower.  To accurately assess why a product is failing, you have to look at all of the reasons that potentially caused the failure. What one person may view as normal usage may be considered by another as abusive. 

Therein lies the problem of identifying what is causing the problem.

As someone with now has over $20K invested in Festool products, I would still continue to give them high marks overall....even if the my Kapex motor fries, in which case I will just order the replacement parts and fix it myself.

Rob

Could not have said it better!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 06, 2017, 09:43 PM
" "What waiting list?" I ask. Oh we have run out of the cartons that we ship broken Kapex in (obviously in high demand), hopefully have one back tomorrow for you."

 [eek] [eek] [eek]

We owners of a Kapex who have, touch wood, had no motor issues with our saws so far can only do one thing (till Festool comes up with a long-lasting fix): Increase our prayers from once a day (before we turn on the Kapex) to twice (or more) (before we unplug the cord).

I agree with many (but not all) of pointers that Rob outlined for using the Kapex or, for that matter, using any sliding compound saw. But it doesn't answer the question why other saws don't fail like Kapex when such good habits are not followed.

Silence is certainly not golden on the part of Festool in this matter. 

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: mikeyr on July 07, 2017, 01:14 PM
 It takes years to build a reputation for good tools and it only takes 3 pages of complaints/posts to destroy that reputation.

 I am a newbie to Festool, but I still spent $6k since Christmas on Festool and was going to buy the Kapex, I was so happy with the other Festools I purchased (still am), I easily assumed the Kapex was the very best on the market, now I know better and I am looking at others.  Why ? because the competition is talking and Festool is not.  Because of this issue, I will not blindly buy Festool like I did the first few months of this year, I no longer believe they are the best and I worry about customer support if this is the best they can do for support.

 There might not even be a problem with the Kapex, but Festool's silence tells me its a piece of junk and they know it so they keep quiet hoping we all go away on this subject.  Oh, and if its not a piece of junk, they sure let me think so by not telling me otherwise.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 07, 2017, 11:30 PM
I have talked to 3 people this week in the process of selling my Kapex. Telling the them the pros and cons. They have a decided to to buy the new Makita. Mine is on order. I think that right there is saying something. I am selling my freshly fixed Kapex for $800 with three blades. Thats half off  new one. They still ask me what I am buying and then they decide to do the same and Im okay with that.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 08, 2017, 11:47 AM
Hopefully this will be talked about at the pow wow @Tyler C is going to later this month.

And , there will be a formal response from upper management. 

I wouldn't hold my breath though.   [unsure]    My guess is FT will continue to sweep this under the carpet and then roll out the new mini saw.  Hoping people get distracted with all the new products, and the noise generated by those.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Ajax on July 08, 2017, 11:59 AM
Hopefully this will be talked about at the pow wow @Tyler C is going to later this month.

And , there will be a formal response from upper management. 

I wouldn't hold my breath though.   [unsure]    My guess is FT will continue to sweep this under the carpet and then roll out the new mini saw.  Hoping people get distracted with all the new products, and the noise generated by those.

I think you are right.  My bet is they bring out Kapex 2.0 in the future and offer upgrades to existing Kapex owners for some substantial amount of money.

I love my Kapex.  Unfortunately, I'm just a hobbyist and I baby the thing; and my 3 year ownership period is closing soon.  So when the thing blows, I'm paying a fortune to fix a saw that I already paid a fortune for.

Festool's parent company has plenty of cash (they are buying SawStop), but they are too cheep/greedy to fix an obvious fault in the Kapex motor and/or electronics.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rsrflooring on July 12, 2017, 06:54 PM
Well finding my self in a hard spot today. In my attempt to use my old makita while awaiting for the new one, Ive started a very detail hardwood job. darn you festool. You made a great saw with awesome dust collection amd very accurate. Just put crap componets inside. tomorrow its going back on my stand. I didnt want to. But i need to. Ahhh.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: M Smith on July 21, 2017, 05:35 PM
My Kapex motor burned up for the third time in 5 years a few weeks ago !!!   In the middle of a big trim job so had to go out and buy a temp/back up which is a joke considering how much I spent on the darn thing. Sent a brief email on the Festool website contact form but have not had a reply ?????   So frustrated like all the others on here. For the hundreth time doesn't anyone else agree that NO other miter saw on the market (US) has speed control and NO other miter saw has had this kind of motor failure issue ???  Since Festool wont come clean we have to "guess" what it is and MY guess is it has to do with the speed control and that it is running thru the CT vac"s. Time will tell, well maybe ??? 

Going to rebuild the Kapex myself since i already did it after the second motor burned up and I wasn't about to pay another $100 to ship it to them, of course, only IF they send me a new armature for free ? If not, it will sit and rust.

Chomping at the bit to get the new Makita LS1019L  but even though it is listed on Amazon's site, it sez it is not available for 1 -2 mos ???  Acmetool and Toolnut both also have it on their sites for a STEAL at $509.99 and FREE shipping !!!!!!!!!! but also "not in stock" yet.  Could buy 3 of them for the price of one Kapex !!!!!  Got the feeling this new Makita slider will become the "gold standard" in the sliding miter saw industry.

M Smith   

 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: McNally Family on July 21, 2017, 05:50 PM
My Kapex motor burned up for the third time in 5 years a few weeks ago !!!   In the middle of a big trim job so had to go out and buy a temp/back up which is a joke considering how much I spent on the darn thing. Sent a brief email on the Festool website contact form but have not had a reply ?????   So frustrated like all the others on here. For the hundreth time doesn't anyone else agree that NO other miter saw on the market (US) has speed control and NO other miter saw has had this kind of motor failure issue ???  Since Festool wont come clean we have to "guess" what it is and MY guess is it has to do with the speed control and that it is running thru the CT vac"s. Time will tell, well maybe ??? 

Going to rebuild the Kapex myself since i already did it after the second motor burned up and I wasn't about to pay another $100 to ship it to them, of course, only IF they send me a new armature for free ? If not, it will sit and rust.

Chomping at the bit to get the new Makita LS1019L  but even though it is listed on Amazon's site, it sez it is not available for 1 -2 mos ???  Acmetool and Toolnut both also have it on their sites for a STEAL at $509.99 and FREE shipping !!!!!!!!!! but also "not in stock" yet.  Could buy 3 of them for the price of one Kapex !!!!!  Got the feeling this new Makita slider will become the "gold standard" in the sliding miter saw industry.

M Smith

@M Smith

In stock today:

https://www.burnstools.com/ls1019l-10-dual-slide-compound-miter-saw

http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/makita-ls1019l
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on July 22, 2017, 09:27 AM

https://www.burnstools.com/ls1019l-10-dual-slide-compound-miter-saw


Interesting as to how the Makita is being marketed. They list 24 different features, however,  "Excellent dust extraction performance with included dust bag" is the 24th and final feature listed. [eek]

Other features such as "Rubberized D-handle", "Replaceable miter scale" & "Oversized trigger switch" appear to be more important.  [jawdrop]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on July 22, 2017, 09:41 AM
Cheese: And your point is what ?  A comfortable grip/ trigger is not important. I guess the carpel tunnel trigger on the kapex is good enough.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on July 22, 2017, 10:32 AM
Cheese: And your point is what ?  A comfortable grip/ trigger is not important. I guess the carpel tunnel trigger on the kapex is good enough.

Just an observation...I just thought it was strange to put more emphasis on an "Oversized trigger switch" than on dust collection capabilities.

Especially when Makita has copied many of the Kapex features...why wouldn't dust collection be held in higher esteem?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 22, 2017, 11:31 AM
Why is the new Makita saw still using the screw type clamp?

I observe that many saw users (regardless of brands other than Festool) do not use their clamps as it is inconvenient to engage and disengage them for every cut. The Kapex clamps are the best (and it is silly not to use them since they are soooo expensive and well designed for quick engagement and disengagement). I use the clamp in 90% of my cuts, even for the long boards, for safety, but also because clamping ensures zero creeping or movement.

Yes, dust collection on the Kapex is the best among all mitresaws, just as the SawStop dust collection blade guard is, in the cabinet saw category.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on July 22, 2017, 02:11 PM
99% of the time actual site carpenters building actual houses do not use the clamp. Maybe it's different for the hobbyists. That being said the makita clamp looks goofy but is quite effective as it can pivot all around and has a deeper throat than the limited fancy expensive and yes easy to clamp festool clamp. Come on it's a miter saw how often does one need the clamp. I use it mostly to clamp a sacrificial fence for small pieces or quick dados.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 22, 2017, 06:33 PM
Come on it's a miter saw how often does one need the clamp.

Every woodworker has their different ways of doing things. About 90% of the time I use the Kapex, I use the clamp. If the piece is too short, I use a bridge-over with the clamp. Precision as well as safety is important in my work. Speed, not so much by comparison.

When I teach and use the Kapex, 100% of the time I use the clamp by myself (as a model) or with the students. No exceptions there, for safety reasons. When I teach and use the bandsaw, I use sticks so the student's hands would not pass beyond the blade, in addition to using guard and feather boards where applicable. After teaching for about 10 years, I have had zero power tool injuries record for the students under my belt.

Yes, site carpenters do all kinds of things I wouldn't dare try. When my contractor roofers used their saws without push sticks, guards, etc., it was not my call to tell them to how to do it. (I did insist in writing they use safety harnesses on the roof. In writing as part of the contract). When my deck was rebuilt, I saw guys using their nailers and contractor saws without wearing ear or eye protection, it was none of my business to show them how they should use their tools. When the flooring guys did the hardwood flooring for my neighbor, they made angle cuts with their hands so close to the blade that I told my neighbor they were playing Russian Roulette. 

Personally, I consider the mitre saw the second most dangerous tool -- followed by the jointer and bandsaw -- in my shop. Others may think otherwise. I have seen well-known woodworkers on videos placing their hands inside the zone marked dangerous on the table. I am not them.


Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 22, 2017, 06:43 PM
This discussion has come up before and I remember Chuck being a champion of a clamp.

But the fact remains that most people don't use one.  Many saws don't ship with them, and most outlets don't even carry them as accessories for the brands that offer them.

I myself prefer to not have to pay for an item I'll never use.  If you like and use them great. Buy all you want , but don't penalize the rest of us.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 22, 2017, 07:02 PM
Buy all you want , but don't penalize the rest of us.

?

???

I didn't suggest every mitre saw must be sold with a clamp. Festool -- not me -- bundles its Kapex with a  clamp.

I'd love to have one more, but the price tag ($80 at that time?) was too deep for me. If Festool sold a second one as an option with the new saw for $40, I would have bought one more for sure. Didn't they say you can never have enough....
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on July 22, 2017, 07:50 PM
For almost 30 years I owned and used 2 Milwaukee mitre saws. Over that time I used the supplied Milwaukee clamp at the most 15-20 times.

And then I bought a Kapex...because of the wacky off-cut issues and throwing small pieces of wood, I use the Kapex clamp 90% of the time. I'm not afraid of the saw, but I do get startled when a piece of wood gets bounced off the saw or blade guard. The last thing I need is to become startled by the noise and move my hand into the spinning blade...the clamp prevents that from happening.  [cool]

And I'm certainly not a safety freak as I usually drive a motorcycle without a helmet and the blade guard/splitter on my Bosch 4000 series table was removed 10 years ago.  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: waho6o9 on July 22, 2017, 08:59 PM
After I bent a Festool blade on my Kapex I started using a ZCF (zero clearance fence) to minimize projectiles. I wasn't getting 90 degree cuts so I placed the blade on a piece of granite and used my feeler gauges to find out  that the blade wasn't  flat.


[attach=1]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on July 22, 2017, 11:28 PM
What I'm saying is I prefer companies that don't bundle accessories (that most people don't use) into the price of their machines. 

You don't think FT is giving the clamp away ? 

Having them as additional cost accessories is the fairest way. You can buy them because you want one , or need them to so,be a design flaw. But I don't have to pay for one when I feel they are of no value.   

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 22, 2017, 11:41 PM
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It cuts both ways. If a clamp wasn't part of the deal, people could challenge or criticize it as being an incomplete saw for that kind of price (assuming it took out the clamp and lowered the price to, say, $1400).

Bundled or not, I look at the total cost and the benefits before I decide on a purchase.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on July 28, 2017, 09:42 PM
 Earlier today I stopped into my local woodcraft and in the process of purchasing a few accessories I offhandedly asked if anyone had heard of the Kapex burning up issues.  Neither one of the sales associates had heard anything about it.  This particular woodcraft is the largest distributor of Festool in my area. How is it possible that they had not heard about this?

I was working with a another Festoolian today and his saw went up in smoke after  about a year and a half. It was repaired under warranty he and he maintains it is because the saw was not designed to be plugged into the CT 26 outlet. Now he uses a remote starter switch with two independent cords, one powers the vacuum and the other powers the saw.  Each cord from the switch is routed to its own 20A circuit.

 When I mentioned the issue with my coworker to the woodcraft sales associates they both said that their demonstration saw has been plugged into the CT vacuum for its entire life and they have had no problems with their demonstration saw.  This particular saw is used daily to cut millwork for customers and for classroom activities. It likely does not get the same use as a contractor would give it, but this particular unit they said is 10 years old and they have had no problems with it.

 I am beginning to think that when the Kapex became popular about five years ago, festool changed internal components and this has led to the failures.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kdzito on July 29, 2017, 06:30 AM
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It's a secret but Festool will give you a free lunch at Festool Connect!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ear3 on July 29, 2017, 08:11 AM
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

For almost 30 years I owned and used 2 Milwaukee mitre saws. Over that time I used the supplied Milwaukee clamp at the most 15-20 times.

And then I bought a Kapex...because of the wacky off-cut issues and throwing small pieces of wood, I use the Kapex clamp 90% of the time. I'm not afraid of the saw, but I do get startled when a piece of wood gets bounced off the saw or blade guard. The last thing I need is to become startled by the noise and move my hand into the spinning blade...the clamp prevents that from happening.  [cool]

And I'm certainly not a safety freak as I usually drive a motorcycle without a helmet and the blade guard/splitter on my Bosch 4000 series table was removed 10 years ago.  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on July 29, 2017, 09:15 AM
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

...

It is interesting, I always wear one.
But when skiing, when one wears googles for racing when they wear sunnies for regular skiing it changes the experience a lot.

In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.
The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense". Maybe they are more conscience, or maybe the car drivers are more aware, or maybe the cyclist are more careful and cautious.

If you plan on crashing, then a helmet is clearly a good idea.

Motorcycle have the benefit of being faster than push-bikes, so when it all goes "pear-shaped" it happens faster and with more force and energy.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 29, 2017, 09:21 AM
Festool is not known for giving out free lunches.

It's a secret but Festool will give you a free lunch at Festool Connect!

I know they hand out T-shirts, stickers and at some events (Connect?), even systainers, too!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on July 29, 2017, 10:03 AM

In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.
The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense".

It's not the incidents of accidents but the severity of head injuries that should be compared.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on July 29, 2017, 10:39 AM
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 29, 2017, 10:51 AM

The incidence of accidents is lower without a helmet, which is contrary to "common sense".

Sure about this???

How to prove that? It is like saying using a tablesaw without any safety precautions (no guards, splitters, etc.) would reduce the incidence of accidents.

I can understand that a biker or tabelsaw user might exercise more precaution in such circumstances, but that doesn't necessarily result in lower incidence of accidents than when a helmet or guard is used, as for example, a motor cycle accident can be caused by other users of the road, whether or not a biker wears a helmet.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: PatR on July 29, 2017, 11:36 AM
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]

Uhm, no there isn't.  [blink]

It is recommended that you wear a cycle helmet in Denmark but it is neither the law or obligatory. Just like The Netherlands.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on July 29, 2017, 01:55 PM
In any case, in Denmark there is no helmet law.

Uhm, yes there is.  [blink]

Uhm, no there isn't.  [blink]

It is recommended that you wear a cycle helmet in Denmark but it is neither the law or obligatory. Just like The Netherlands.

Interesting how some people seem to jump from motorcycle to bicycle. There's a difference, you know. Maybe read a bit back.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on July 29, 2017, 02:04 PM
Squirrel
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Tinker on July 29, 2017, 02:41 PM
When I was riding motorcycles, I always wore a helmet.  anybody who rode on my bike was required to wear a hlmet.
I had a young man orking for me who loved to rid.  I allowed him to ride only if he wore a helmet, which, BTW, I supplied.  One day he got cut off head on by a driver making an illegal left turn at a traffic light.  My helper ended up with a dislocatd shoulder,a stretched knee ligament and an undamaged head.  He thanked me for the undamaged head.  I told me that he felt and heard his helmet banging along the side of the car. He told me his helmet might have hit the side of the car at least 5 or six times. He and his newly wed wife were happy that he was still alive.  They attributed that to having worn a helmet.  Just one life saved makes it worth while to me to have insisted.  I no longer ride motorcycles.  My children and grandchild do ride.  AND they all wear helmets when riding.
Tinker
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on July 29, 2017, 02:54 PM
In my province, one must wear an approved motorcycle helmet when operating a power bicycle/motorcycle.

In addition, 6 years ago, the government made it mandatory for bicycle riders under 18 to wear helmets. Safety experts were applauding the legislation, citing studies "which show helmets reduce head injuries in cycling crashes by 90 per cent."

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on July 29, 2017, 09:44 PM
Rabbit
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on July 29, 2017, 11:30 PM
Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

Hey Edward...it probably goes back to when I first started riding bikes when I was around 15. At that time, light weight/high strength plastics were not yet available (or maybe even invented) at a reasonable consumer price. The norm was hand laid fiber glass mat and resin. This led to a strong but very heavy helmet.
I preferred a half helmet for dirt biking and a full helmet for street biking.
The half helmet was manageable but the full Bell Star helmet was extremely heavy. It also had limited peripheral vision. To make matters worse, at speeds over 30 mph, air pressure would build inside the helmet and attempt to pull the helmet off your head, straining your neck.
So, between the weight at lower speeds, and the extreme lifting forces at higher speeds along with the decreased peripheral vision, the full Bell Star helmet became a non-starter for me. I found I was more aware of traffic conditions and better able to be out of harms way without a helmet as opposed to with a helmet.

Interestingly enough, I've always worn a helmet for dirt biking and have always worn gloves, jeans and a long sleeved shirt or leather jacket for street riding. The helmet just messed with my visual and aural sensitivities when it came to street riding.
I do use a full face helmet when riding on the interstate...go figure.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ear3 on July 30, 2017, 06:38 AM
Ah, that makes more sense. 

Not to hijack the thread @Cheese , but I've always wondered why people ride motorcycles without helmets.  Is it a conscious decision because wearing a helmet cuts down on visibility, or somehow impedes the total experience of being on a bike?  It's always seemed to me like a needless risk to go without a helmet, but I'm not a motorcyclist.

Hey Edward...it probably goes back to when I first started riding bikes when I was around 15. At that time, light weight/high strength plastics were not yet available (or maybe even invented) at a reasonable consumer price. The norm was hand laid fiber glass mat and resin. This led to a strong but very heavy helmet.
I preferred a half helmet for dirt biking and a full helmet for street biking.
The half helmet was manageable but the full Bell Star helmet was extremely heavy. It also had limited peripheral vision. To make matters worse, at speeds over 30 mph, air pressure would build inside the helmet and attempt to pull the helmet off your head, straining your neck.
So, between the weight at lower speeds, and the extreme lifting forces at higher speeds along with the decreased peripheral vision, the full Bell Star helmet became a non-starter for me. I found I was more aware of traffic conditions and better able to be out of harms way without a helmet as opposed to with a helmet.

Interestingly enough, I've always worn a helmet for dirt biking and have always worn gloves, jeans and a long sleeved shirt or leather jacket for street riding. The helmet just messed with my visual and aural sensitivities when it came to street riding.
I do use a full face helmet when riding on the interstate...go figure.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on July 30, 2017, 08:18 AM
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on July 30, 2017, 08:21 AM
Sorry, had other non-forum stuff to do.

How about we get back on topic please.

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jozsef Kozma on July 30, 2017, 09:42 AM
No sorry needed Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Dovetail65 on July 30, 2017, 11:25 AM
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.

Threads as long and big as this go off a bit, so what.

Please stop making it seem like it's some coordinated, nefarious effort by Festool. If it were this topic would not exist and every negative thing would be deleted, including yours.

My lord do we want a fun place to talk, or do we just want a data base with information? Humans dont talk without veering off subject  a bit. From my perspective we were 10 posts away from moderator intervention.

Lets keep it fun.

That being said I sent 3 Kapex back, but they NEVER had a motor issue. Actually, other than this forum I never heard about a motor issue  and I know at least 5 people that own them. I could never get my hands on a broken one here in IL.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Vondawg on July 30, 2017, 11:36 AM
Well said Dovetail65 !
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on July 30, 2017, 11:41 AM
Notice how the moderators are not putting it back on topic.  I am sure festool execs would rather y'all discuss motorcycle helmets than kapex motor failure.


Yes, that's it, you've nailed it!   Why just this morning the execs were messaging me to let this topic run wild! That way no one will notice the ten million topics on Kapex problems.  [blink]

    I have never been instructed by Festool to do anything different or particular with the Kapex problems topics.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are a ton of topics that go OT that we don't bother trying to keep on track.  There are a number of reasons we might try putting a thread back on topic. Sometimes it is at the OP's request, very commonly it is because the topic is headed into a discussion that is not allowed on FOG or because members are starting to take shots at each other. Or a new member is trying to find out some piece of info without a lot of clutter. Sometimes it is because something interesting or that  hasn't been discussed to death   is going to get buried by the OT.

    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on July 31, 2017, 12:20 AM
Srsemenza. I guess sarcasm is above your pay grade. 😏
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on August 14, 2017, 08:46 AM
I stumbled over this (https://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10985659&cid=55005953) slashdot comment about a marketing approach to 'problematic' products (in the story about how microsoft had been blaming intel for its own bad surface drivers (https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/08/14/030218/microsoft-blamed-intel-for-its-own-bad-surface-drivers)):
Quote
Customers who spend more on premium products tend to be more satisfied even when they are unreliable because they need to justify their own decision-making process.

Yep, this is a very well-known effect. I remember discussing this in a marketing class, and it's why you can find a lot of high-status consumer goods that are not very, umm, good.

Our instructor even quipped: if you that know your product is likely to have a high return rate, you're better off seriously overpricing it and spending extra attention on styling and marketing. People generally hate to admit to being taken and will keep it to themselves. They're more likely to act like the product is everything they expected it to be, sometimes even to the point of telling their friends how great it is. This tendency will lower your rate of returns and will reduce the amount of bad press and word-of-mouth you'll get.

Marketing is a sleazy business.

 ::)

Made me think about several discussions here (problems with certain tools) and lead me to the question about the extend customers actually can be manipulated that way. Does this strategy really work relieably enough to actually be employed on a wider scale?

And if the answer to the last question is 'yes': how to defend oneself (and others) against such attacks against the brain?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: mikeyr on August 14, 2017, 12:32 PM
    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   
  Come on, does anyone really believe that the higher ups at Festool even know this forum exists ?  They don't care, they got our money when we bought the tool and they are making money when we send it in for repair, its all good for them and they don't care this forum exists.  I do agree that if they wanted to bury the problems they would talk to FOG admins and the threads would be killed, but they don't even know there is a FOG or a problem.  That is how it works at big companies, by the time you get up the ladder you just know, company made this much or lost this much, the actual reason for profit is not important and if its a loss, its time for new managment, not a fix to the real problem.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on August 14, 2017, 01:51 PM
I stumbled over this (https://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10985659&cid=55005953) slashdot comment about a marketing approach to 'problematic' products (in the story about how microsoft had been blaming intel for its own bad surface drivers (https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/08/14/030218/microsoft-blamed-intel-for-its-own-bad-surface-drivers)):
Quote
Customers who spend more on premium products tend to be more satisfied even when they are unreliable because they need to justify their own decision-making process.

Yep, this is a very well-known effect. I remember discussing this in a marketing class, and it's why you can find a lot of high-status consumer goods that are not very, umm, good.

Our instructor even quipped: if you that know your product is likely to have a high return rate, you're better off seriously overpricing it and spending extra attention on styling and marketing. People generally hate to admit to being taken and will keep it to themselves. They're more likely to act like the product is everything they expected it to be, sometimes even to the point of telling their friends how great it is. This tendency will lower your rate of returns and will reduce the amount of bad press and word-of-mouth you'll get.

Marketing is a sleazy business.

 ::)

Made me think about several discussions here (problems with certain tools) and lead me to the question about the extend customers actually can be manipulated that way. Does this strategy really work relieably enough to actually be employed on a wider scale?

And if the answer to the last question is 'yes': how to defend oneself (and others) against such attacks against the brain?

The term of art is expectation bias and it is arguably the reason the scientific process was needed.  The psychology behind it is that our expectations (due to word of mouth, appearances, what we paid, shiny bling, whatever...) strongly color our experiences.  So if I pay a buttload for something and its pretty and shiny and other people tell me how great it is, I will ignore my actual experience and allow my expectations to bias it.  In its ultimate incantation it has people feeling good about overpaying for things because of the exclusivity of being able to overpay!  Caveat emptor!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on August 14, 2017, 05:58 PM
I can assure you that the higher ups of FESTOOL know about this forum.  CHRISTIAN who is the CSO or CEO (depending on who is writing what) was instrumental in the development and growth of this forum while he was based in the US.  He and I have had conversations regarding the forum within the last year and yes, he does regularly read posts.  So do others and they have been doing that for years.

Peter

    Please note that if Festool wanted to bury the Kapex problem topics ........ none of them would have ever been allowed to survive more than about five minutes on FOG. To the contrary the discussion has been allowed to go on ad nauseam.

Seth
   
  Come on, does anyone really believe that the higher ups at Festool even know this forum exists ?  They don't care, they got our money when we bought the tool and they are making money when we send it in for repair, its all good for them and they don't care this forum exists.  I do agree that if they wanted to bury the problems they would talk to FOG admins and the threads would be killed, but they don't even know there is a FOG or a problem.  That is how it works at big companies, by the time you get up the ladder you just know, company made this much or lost this much, the actual reason for profit is not important and if its a loss, its time for new managment, not a fix to the real problem.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on August 14, 2017, 06:11 PM
Peter Halle link
"I can assure you that the higher ups of FESTOOL know about this forum.  CHRISTIAN who is the CSO or CEO (depending on who is writing what) was instrumental in the development and growth of this forum while he was based in the US.  He and I have had conversations regarding the forum within the last year and yes, he does regularly read posts.  So do others and they have been doing that for years.

Peter"



Other business leaders would die to have the kind of frank feedback -- even though sometimes less friendly or less courteous -- that this Forum has been collecting. I would be very surprised that Festool executives or designated managers would not be monitoring the comments expressed in this Forum. Companies -- banks, automakers, retailers (A&W, MacDonald's, etc.), fashions -- pay outside agencies to collect customer feedback on their behalf and the information they collect is not even as rich as that we see here in the Forum.

Other tool vendors or makers go to woodworking forums to scan and collect information relating to their companies (products, customer service, etc.) so they know what the endusers are saying about them. Woodworking magazines do the same. That is why they join the social media, too, to get in touch with customers in a way that the traditional channels (emails, telephone and snail mails) cannot replace.

In the old days (pre-Internet), the company I worked for had a dedicated dept. (Public Relations & Publicity) that monitored the press, columnists, customer complaints, service feedback and other community channels. Each morning, we received the "Digest" prepared by them covering news, service development and legislation relating to our industry so we all knew more about the outside world around us when we made our internal executive decisions. The people working to collect information were full-time head counts mostly with journalism, business or market survey and research backgrounds. We were just about to incorporate emails in our system in those days.

One more thing: I also had a Manager coordinating and handling complaints, regardless of the nature of them. This way, the complainant had only one party to deal with. The Manager redirected the complaints to the relevant dept or managers as he saw fit. Outsiders didn't know or didn't want to know how your internal system worked and so we put in place one person (at a managerial level) as their contact point.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Arthur444 on September 25, 2017, 11:52 AM
Holy smokes my less then 2 year old Kapex died yesterday. I just joined this forum and I can't believe that with blades I've got over 2000$ in a piece of junk. I'm semi-retired, I sell stuff on Etsy. This saw went from the box to a bench and mostly cuts Cedar 9 months out of the year. It has less then a years worth of professional use. I've had to replace the brushes twice already and I noticed it sounded a little funny but I though it had to be my imagination because cognitive dissonance was not allowing my brain to wrap around the fact my 1500$ miter box was already taking a dump. Sure enough yesterday it stopped working, if you smack the top of the handle it will work for awhile but also I noticed yesterday before I stopped using it I made 16 cuts in repetition on 1/2"x 2 1/2" white pine and the motor housing was too hot to touch. I unplugged it and finished the job with another saw. This saw is literally self destructing.This is really shoddy. I have been stolen from. I was a professional woodworker for 30 yrs. and my Dewalt DW708 lasted 25 of those years without one problem.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on September 25, 2017, 12:36 PM
Arthur - sorry to hear about your trouble.

You should probably just send it back to Festool to have it repaired under warranty and then place it for sale, recouping most of your money. 

You can read about Makitas new saw , which by all early accounts is just about as good as kapex.  Yet, costs roughly 1/3 the price.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Arthur444 on September 25, 2017, 12:46 PM
Yep, I have to find out if it's still under warranty and hopefully get it fixed and sell it. I bought the new Makita this morning for a little over 500$.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on September 25, 2017, 12:50 PM
Yep, I have to find out if it's still under warranty and hopefully get it fixed and sell it. I bought the new Makita this morning for a little over 500$.

Three year warranty. When did you buy it?

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Arthur444 on September 25, 2017, 01:10 PM
Omg, I bought this 9/3/16. It's barely a year old. Wow, in my whole professional career I've never had a tool be more babied and self destruct this fast. I've got to get this fixed and I want it out of my shop as quickly as possible. You charge 1475$ for this. Shame.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on September 25, 2017, 01:17 PM
Omg, I bought this 9/3/16. It's barely a year old. Wow, in my whole professional career I've never had a tool be more babied and self destruct this fast. I've got to get this fixed and I want it out of my shop as quickly as possible. You charge 1475$ for this. Shame.

So contact Festool  888-337-8600 .

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on September 25, 2017, 05:31 PM
Holy smokes my less then 2 year old Kapex died yesterday...

The evidence of smoke is anything but holy.
But the following does have a religious fervour.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 03, 2017, 09:14 PM
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on October 04, 2017, 09:55 AM
anyone else hear that song by Queen playing in the background ?    [wink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on October 04, 2017, 10:34 AM
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.

20A or 15A circuit would never make a difference nor should material for the cost of this saw. Also, no need to back up your failure with justifications as to why it should not failing, as there is no excuse for any of them failing. Hopefully with your posting and those by many other people with failures will prevent others from buying them and suffering through a failure. It is obvious Festool has no intention on resolving the issue so the only option is to look elsewhere for a mitre saw.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: VW MICK on October 04, 2017, 03:09 PM
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Harry1561 on October 04, 2017, 03:21 PM
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick
I'm with Mick on this one, love the kapex and work it hard too.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on October 04, 2017, 03:40 PM
Hi

My kapex is the best saw I've owned and I waited a long time to get it

I love it

Mick
I'm with Mick on this one, love the kapex and work it hard too.


I’ll bet both of you guys have 230 volt models?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on October 04, 2017, 05:11 PM
of course they do  ::)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 04, 2017, 07:44 PM
My 1 year and 11 month old Kapex burned up today.  I'm not going down the rant road as it serves no purpose. I'm merely posting so other FOGgers are aware of yet another failure.

BTW, my saw has always been plugged directly into a 20A or into my CT26 plugged directly into a 20A.  I have never used cords or 15A circuits.  I have never used a generator or invertor. I have cut no thicker than 2x soft wood material.  I have always used a sharp blade.  I have done everything as right as I possibly could.

On to Indiana.

20A or 15A circuit would never make a difference nor should material for the cost of this saw. Also, no need to back up your failure with justifications as to why it should not failing, as there is no excuse for any of them failing. Hopefully with your posting and those by many other people with failures will prevent others from buying them and suffering through a failure. It is obvious Festool has no intention on resolving the issue so the only option is to look elsewhere for a mitre saw.

I guess I justify only because of the stories I've heard from others who have had failures. Im of the mindset that FT could potentially look for end user fault as a loophole.  I'm going to go one step further when my saw returns.  I will be looking for two independent sources of power and running my CT off a demand switch.  I will no longer be powering the Kapex from the CT.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on October 04, 2017, 08:29 PM
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DB10 on October 04, 2017, 08:49 PM
  Well the 230v Kapex isn't exempt from going bad. Quite a few reports on the fog over the years about it, just seems the majority of Kapex's burning up seem to be 110v.
 It would be interesting to know what the ratio of sales between 230v & 110v Kapex's is. I would have thought that the 110v Kapex would have been in the minority.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on October 04, 2017, 09:05 PM
of course they do  ::)

You don’t know that...they could be 110/120 models used with a tranny. For a proper analytical evaluation, (which we are all dying to perform on any Kapex thread) we need to know the actual facts...not just the assumptions.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 05, 2017, 06:47 AM
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined power consumption of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.

I work with another Kapex owner and he runs his system off two independent power sources with a demand switch.  My warrantee clock will expire in about a year. I have to assume that since FT has not commented on a solution, they are simply replacing defective parts with parts from stock that may share the same defect.  I have to do everything I can to prevent this from happening again.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: VW MICK on October 05, 2017, 01:21 PM
Hi

Mine is a 110v one

And it's plugged into one of my 110v sockets in my dado trunking wich  is fed of a 5kva transformer  using the (I think 16ah plug the larger one if anyone can clarify)

All my festools are 110v apart from a couple that are not available

Mick
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Arthur444 on October 05, 2017, 04:33 PM
I got my Kapex back today. Customer service was flawless. Took 1 week to get it back. keep in mind it's 13 months old and I'm semi-retired, saw stays in my garage and light use, and the saw is plugged into it's own 30amp breaker 15' from the breaker box. Here is the list of things they replaced, leg spring, end shield, brush holder and brushes, field assembly, gear housing. This saw was really messed up. The day it went out I bought the Makita LS1019L for 517$ and free shipping. I'm keeping the Makita and immediately selling the Kapex. One good thing is that you can buy a bushing so you can use the Kapex blades on a standard 5/8 arbor. I've got 7 Kapex blades so I'm happy I can use them on the Makita.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on October 05, 2017, 05:37 PM
Here is the list of things they replaced, leg spring, end shield, brush holder and brushes, field assembly, gear housing.
According to EKAT this covers the complete motor assembly, except the covers and the electronics board.
Quote
This saw was really messed up.
My guess is that, unless the thing literally exploded the last time you used it (which I guess you would have noticed), they simply replaced it in total to be able to study it in detail as a whole (send it to a lab or back to the mothership, whatever - without keeping you waiting) in their quest to find the root cause of the problem.
Which I would chalk off as a very good idea.

Another guess is, as they don't employ slaves, that replacing the assemblies in full could be effectively cheaper than having to disassemble them.

But my money is on the first as it wouldn't make sense to replace (or even disassemble) the gear housing just to fix an electricial problem in the rotor or the field packet - pulling the motor including the end shield should be possible without removing the gear housing from the machine at all (unless I overlooked something).

Bottom line: you basically have, from a technical standpoint, a brand new saw.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 05, 2017, 05:51 PM
//
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined amperage of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.
...

A GFI (aka RCID) will trip fast when it sees unequal current.

However many breakers will run forever on 100%. It is 200% that makes them trip quick, and 125% can take a while.
Or at least it is true for mobile breakers.

Whether the vacuum draws full current during startup and whether the Kapex draws full current at startup would need to be measured.

Once they are up to speed then the Kapex should draw SFA, and the vacuum something way less than full rated power.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Greg M on October 06, 2017, 08:57 AM
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity. The combined power consumption of my CT 26 and Kapex with both set at full power is listed on FT USA's site as 2800 watts. Divided by 110V, the result is 25.5A.  Theoretically a 20A circuit should trip under that load.

In fairness I can say that I don't remember tripping a 20A circuit when I've plugged both the CT and Kapex into the same circuit, but from what I've found here and elsewhere it appears that one of the faults of the Kapex lies with inadequate power supply.

I work with another Kapex owner and he runs his system off two independent power sources with a demand switch.  My warrantee clock will expire in about a year. I have to assume that since FT has not commented on a solution, they are simply replacing defective parts with parts from stock that may share the same defect.  I have to do everything I can to prevent this from happening again.

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.

I don't see how using the CT would burn up the Kapex.  If anything I would think it would burn up the CT.  I seriously doubt that it's a power supply issue.

Regardless of what's causing these failures it still comes down to a design flaw.  If other manufacturers can produce saws that last forever while being beaten to death then there's absolutely NO reason that a Kapex should die in a shop!!!!!!!

I love my Kapex but all these accounts of them dying make me too nervous to trust it.

My opinion is that Festool is foolish to have let this go on soooo long!  Their prices are too high already and they continue to raise them every year.  They justify this by how reliable and dependable their precision tools are.  I have a good bit of Festool tools so I do find value in them.  However, I've also stopped buying them.  This Kapex problem made me realize that Festool tools just might not last long enough for me to justify the HIGH price.  It's a shame because they really are terrific tools.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 06, 2017, 11:26 PM
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity.
...

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.
...

I thought is is nominally 120v, with the allowable 110-125.
http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges (http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 07, 2017, 07:10 PM
I'm not convinced a dedicated power feed will help.

I guess it can't hurt the situation either.  [wink]
I write that utilizing my caveman knowledge of electricity.
...

The division should be by the volts measured at the outlet, between 120v and 125v, not 110.  Plus the short bursts at full amperage won't heat the breaker enough for it to trip.
...

I thought is is nominally 120v, with the allowable 110-125.
http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges (http://www.spgsamerica.com/information/acceptable-voltage-ranges)

That's why I wrote "caveman knowledge".

I was under the impression that American voltage is assigned a nominal voltage of 110 volts, with 120 being on the upper end of the scale.  That's why I used 110 as the divisor.  I've checked voltage at outlets a few times and I don't recall readings at or above 120.  Generally I see readings in the upper hundred-teens (116, 117, 118...)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: overanalyze on October 07, 2017, 07:23 PM
My area has high voltage...consistently reads 125+/- ....actually wonder if that is part of the problem??...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on October 07, 2017, 08:33 PM
What readings do you get at the wall outlet that the saw is plugged into when the saw is under load?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: overanalyze on October 07, 2017, 09:33 PM
What readings do you get at the wall outlet that the saw is plugged into when the saw is under load?
I don't know. I have never tested that. I can on Monday and see what it reads.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on October 07, 2017, 10:31 PM
Nominal voltage in my area runs 120-125V.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on October 07, 2017, 11:10 PM
Hey 👋 Naildrivingman,
Voltages on the east side of the Mississippi run 119-121.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 07, 2017, 11:54 PM
My area has high voltage...consistently reads 125+/- ....actually wonder if that is part of the problem??...

No! not usually.

Too low of voltage generally translates to more current, and current gets converted to heat.
Hence brown-outs are generally a bigger issue.

If the mechanism was some arcing between windings then more voltage is not better. But a 230v motor would have move more voltage than a 110v.

The best people to investigate the issue is Festool, but I am not sure where they are at with it.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on October 08, 2017, 12:08 AM
The best people to investigate the issue is Festool, but I am not sure where they are at with it.

I’m not sure Festool knows where they’re at with it. I was told several years ago by a Festool
rep that corporate was well aware of the problem, even whincing when the subject matter came up in conversation, however they didn’t have a solution. That does not bode well for this issue.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 08, 2017, 12:46 AM
Some people claim that the US power grid, and world power grid in general, is the most complex system invented by man.
I saw this on some documentary, and the argument seemed compelling.
It is definitely beyond caveman level of understanding, but the documentary was easy enough to follow and started with N. Tesla, Westinghouse, and Edison.

The fact that most other tools seem to work being attached to the power grid, would imply that the power grid is not broken.

When someone suggests looking at the power grid, and knowing that the power grid is complex, seems like a roundabout message.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on October 08, 2017, 01:26 AM
The fact that most other tools seem to work being attached to the power grid, would imply that the power grid is not broken.

When someone suggests looking at the power grid, and knowing that the power grid is complex, seems like a roundabout message.

Amen 🙏 Holmes...

Fact is, miter saws have been produced for the last 30+ years. They’ve been used to cut everything from concrete to steel.  Some people have waited for them to come up to speed before cutting while others have not. Some people have cut treated lumber while others have cut trim. They all just work, and their lifetime as measured in the construction industry is usually measured in years not months.

It’s just a saw people...for the life of me I can’t get my head around why fixing the Kapex issues is such a non-sequitur. Support the base of people that helped you gain name recognition in the first place. Without your base, you’d still be Protool.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 08, 2017, 07:40 AM
Hey 👋 Naildrivingman,
Voltages on the east side of the Mississippi run 119-121.
Ok
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JNComplete on October 08, 2017, 04:43 PM
It's time everyone demands instant action by festool on  these motors.  There's no denying it, the kapex motors have a good percentage of them being made poorly.  These last few posts have more than irratated me, and I don't even own a kapex, simply because of these issues. I tried a cut with a kapex and the motor is a weakling.  It's no wonder these things burn up.  It should be noted kapex saws are suitable only to cut balsa wood at a slow rate of cut.  What a joke this has all become.  Smh. Festool ruined their brand with this saw. It isn't happening, it happened. And I'm a guy always promoting how awesome festool tools are, but not the kapex.

I totally agree here. Mine has Just been returned, my local lumber yard dealt with it for me. Was fed up with festool, I was hoping they would wave the standard purchase the box and shipping label deal. No such luck. Haven’t gone to pick it up yet. My makita LS1018 cost me $375 on Amazon and it’s great. Lightweight- good DC and cuts Quality rivals Kaoex. My kapex has now been to their repair location three times - twice for the armature. and this time the warranty is expired. But they know it’s not a random or rare problem here. To say I’m upset is to sugar coat it. I’ll be paying over $300 to get it back and I will also be responsible for the shipping charges. I’m ready to form a group of people here and some attorneys and go for a class action lawsuit. Blatant neglect of addressing a known problem with a product and continuing to sell the same tool to the public is just cause.  [mad]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Greg M on October 23, 2017, 11:12 AM
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on October 23, 2017, 01:23 PM
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.

Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex.  There’s a growing market for high end miter saws in wood working.  It would be nice to a high quality Kapex competitor.  The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Svar on October 23, 2017, 02:31 PM
Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex. 
I'm sure it will be as effective as writing to Festool to see if they'll fix that Kapex motor. Eureca! Let's not write, let's start a thread about it on a Festool forum... Oh, wait...
[big grin]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: serge0n on October 23, 2017, 02:43 PM
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 23, 2017, 05:29 PM
Well I’ve sold the Kapex. Sad to see it go but not worth chancing the cost of having to fix. Now it’s time to find a replacement.

Everyone should write Mafell to see if they’ll make a high end competitor to the Kapex.  There’s a growing market for high end miter saws in wood working.  It would be nice to a high quality Kapex competitor.  The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on October 23, 2017, 05:57 PM
Nobody knows here for a fact (including myself) that Festool doesn't have something in the pipeline.  Same thing for Mafell.  It takes years to develop a tool so in my estimation only time will tell.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on October 23, 2017, 08:00 PM

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on October 23, 2017, 09:22 PM

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth

Seth,

In a lot of ways it’s hard to understand Festool’s response to the issues to the Kapex.  They customer willing to drop $2000 on a miter saw, isn’t going to hesitate to spend $2500 on the vacuum clamp, $2000 grand on the Domino, $1000 on a Track Saw, $4500 on the Edge Bander, $1300 on the OF 2200; ect...

There’s more than just a miter saw at stake.  The customer with a really sour taste in mouth over a bad Kapex experience might be spending thousands of dollars with a competitor that would have otherwise been spent on a Festool product.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on October 23, 2017, 10:05 PM

Or use prayer.
Why would Mafell want to hear you or me opine on what they should do?

If it is that great of an idea then start a company to compete.
Even easisr would a retrofit kit to change motors on the Kapex.
There are many opportunities for you.

Why wouldn't they? 

Pretty sure not everyone with a great idea started a company. Pretty sure sometimes those ideas were taken up by others or by companies.

Seth

Seth,

In a lot of ways it’s hard to understand Festool’s response to the issues to the Kapex.  They customer willing to drop $2000 on a miter saw, isn’t going to hesitate to spend $2500 on the vacuum clamp, $2000 grand on the Domino, $1000 on a Track Saw, $4500 on the Edge Bander, $1300 on the OF 2200; ect...

There’s more than just a miter saw at stake.  The customer with a really sour taste in mouth over a bad Kapex experience might be spending thousands of dollars with a competitor that would have otherwise been spent on a Festool product.

Ummm, yeah, OK but not sure what that has to do with what I said in reply to what Holmz said?

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Kev on October 24, 2017, 05:15 AM
WOW ... this thread started in July and the KAPEX bashing is still going ... and I bet that 90% of the people commenting have never owned a KAPEX!

Regardless of the number of KAPEX failures ... over 150 additional posts on the topic on one single failure and 22,000 reads is bonkers.

It's one thing when a person that's had a genuine problem complains, but everyone else hopping on the bandwagon and bagging the product doesn't help anyone.

From the very nature of this thread and the downward spiral of so many other threads I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures and the amplified noise on the FOG is the real problem.

I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong! [wink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 24, 2017, 06:23 AM
I know two other Kapex owners.  The other two have returned their saws for motor service and mine is currently being repaired.  I'm not sure that this is statistically acceptable as in this part of the world, the Kapex is a pretty rare bird. There are not a lot of owners compared to other areas.  I accept that mistakes in R&D and manufacturing happen. Once mine is returned, I will hope that the problem is resolved and it is anomalous. I will have about 1 year's worth of warrantee left. If the saw fails again (multiple failures of the same saw have been reported here on FOG) and it is beyond warrantee protection, I don't know what I will do, but suffice to say I will not be happy.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Arthur444 on October 24, 2017, 07:25 AM
Well mine bit the dust after only 13 months. The saw only has a 58% 5 star rating on Amazon and a lot of posts from people who had blown motors. I purchased a Makita LS1019L for 517$ and it does everything the Kapex does with a 15 amp motor. Unfortunately I think the cat is out of the bag per quality issues as I can't even sell mine. I've had mine on Craigslist almost a month and it's not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on October 24, 2017, 09:44 AM
Clearly there have been a number of legitimate Kapex problems posted on FOG.  If people want to continue spending their time debating the topic in this thread and other Kapex problem threads they are free to do so. Personally, barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Oldwood on October 24, 2017, 11:01 AM
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on October 24, 2017, 11:30 AM
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

That may or may not be true.  There’s some wacky corporate laws around the world.  It’s likely Festool’s legal team will always be extemely cautious about anything being posted online.  A lot of companies around the world are ridiculously cautious these days.  They know comments made online and in social media have come to bite them in the butt when they least expect it.

Realistically there should be a recall.  A lot of companies prefer to do recalls without admitting legal fault whenever possible.

Most companies procrastinate on recalls until their 99.9% sure they have a working solution in place.   
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Greg M on October 28, 2017, 03:31 PM
I keep visiting these threads so that I can get feedback on possible replacements for the Kapex. I would have kept the Kapex forever but it’s obvious that it doesn’t last as long as other miter saws. So these threads continuing are beneficial.

It took a while to sell it on Craigslist but it did eventually sell.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 28, 2017, 04:01 PM
My Kapex came back this past Wednesday.  Total time gone was three weeks and one day (including two weekends).  My vendor had an internal problem getting in touch with the correct department at FT, so the saw didn’t actually leave my vendor’s location until on week ago this past Tuesday.  That means in 8 days time the saw was shipped from MN to IN, unpackaged, inspected, repaired, repackaged and shipped back.

I have been somewhat vocal in my criticism of the Kapex failures.  I now need to be complementary to FT and my vendor for getting my saw resolved.

WELL DONE!!!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on October 28, 2017, 06:27 PM
Has anyone ever figured out what’s causing the failures?  Is a case of the motor overheating?  Is a mechanical issue?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: harry_ on October 28, 2017, 06:56 PM
Has anyone ever figured out what’s causing the failures?  Is a case of the motor overheating?  Is a mechanical issue?

Your tea leaves on the subject are as good as ours  [scratch chin]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: cash_23 on October 28, 2017, 07:25 PM
My company added one to the blown up list, thankfully it was during the warranty period. I Sent it back Thursday, Hoping for quick return and no further problems. We'd certainly hate to join the unfortunate ones that have had multiple problems with same saw. Also praying my personal Kapex doesn't go up in smoke too. Fingers crossed!!!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on October 28, 2017, 07:28 PM
Quote
I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong!

Is yours a 110v version ?   
This seems to be a favorite counterpoint for our Euro and Australasian friends who overwhelmingly have 230v versions.  The ones that don't go poof after a few years or after cutting a truckload of thin material.  [tongue]

Quote
I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures
Another counterpoint from those that don't have a saw just out of warranty facing a repair bill approaching 40% of a new one.  And remember, this is pretty much the most expensive saw on the market - so customers expect more than a few gee wiz features and saw that cuts straight.  And that their friend's saw still works.

Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?


Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on October 28, 2017, 08:04 PM
Quote
I have a KAPEX and mine is going strong!

Is yours a 110v version ?   
This seems to be a favorite counterpoint for our Euro and Australasian friends who overwhelmingly have 230v versions.  The ones that don't go poof after a few years or after cutting a truckload of thin material.  [tongue]

Quote
I'm now convinced that the KAPEX is fine apart from a number of statistically acceptable failures
Another counterpoint from those that don't have a saw just out of warranty facing a repair bill approaching 40% of a new one.  And remember, this is pretty much the most expensive saw on the market - so customers expect more than a few gee wiz features and saw that cuts straight.  And that their friend's saw still works.

Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?

I wonder if selective quoting will make it to the Olympics as a sport.  It seems to be fun, but then again how would you judge it?

Sorry for the distraction.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: rizzoa13 on October 28, 2017, 09:46 PM
I wonder if diverting a conversation away from anything negative about Festool will be recognized as a sport also.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on October 29, 2017, 12:12 AM


Quote
"barring something more from Festool, I would be inclined to spend my time discussing something else."

I think the fact Festool has said nothing and looks like they are not going to is a large part of the discussion in these threads. [tongue]

I think they need to be held accountable for this poor behavior.  Saying you'll do something and then not following through is a cardinal sin in my view.  This venue is just as good a public billboard as anywhere to get out the message . 

Perhaps it would be more effective for those with broken Kapex saws to air the issue on Facebook or Twitter ?

    Hey, feel free to spend however much time you like discussing Kapex issues. Never said people had to stop. But , you know, it's not like it hasn't been talked over, and over, and over ,and over.  There is more to FOG than Kapex.

    Pretty sure there are several really big billboards on FOG relating to Kapex problems. They are not going away and will show as new / unread to anyone new, and have certainly been viewed a bajillion (guesstimate) times by anyone that has been here for a while. There is more to FOG than Kapex.

    I don't take the time to do the facebook and twitter thing, but I can't imagine that Kapex hasn't been talked about on those avenues. There is more to FOG than Kapex.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on October 29, 2017, 12:20 AM
I wonder if diverting a conversation away from anything negative about Festool will be recognized as a sport also.

 Hey, look over there!

 Nope guess it didn't work because there is all this negative stuff about Festool on FOG. Oh well, there goes my chance for the Olympics. Then again I wasn't really trying to divert attention from anything negative about Festool. If that were the intention we could make life easy and just ......... delete it all.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on October 29, 2017, 07:38 AM
I agree that there has been too much negative about the Kapex.  It seems that there is something wrong with the motor given the seemingly limited market of the tool (because of price) and the number of problems noted with it.  I do question some of the other comment’s validity on issues like dust extraction and quality of cut. I personally do not share those sentiments or experiences.  My Kapex has been repaired once and I am pleased with the turnaround.  I also am one of the Pro 5 owners who had to return the tool for service.  I am pleased with that experience as well.

I own the DF 500, TS 75, 1400/2700 rails, RO 150, Carvex, T15, T18, Centrotec, CT 26 and OF 1400.  All of the tools do what I need/expect if them.  Are they the best in the world?  I don’t know.  But they are the best I can afford and that is good enough for me.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Holmz on October 29, 2017, 08:09 AM
I noticed on the Tele last night that there was a Cheech-n-Chong movie on.
"Still smokin" was the title...
I has a slight smile and realised I was in a fog.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: cash_23 on November 01, 2017, 09:07 AM
I too hope Festool offers recall or longer warranty or something to remedy these issues. I just had company Kapex go up in smoke. I sent it back last Thursday and just got a call this morning that it's ready for pickup. So I think that is amazing turn around and I do appreciate that!  I'm hoping it doesn't happen again especially after warranty period is up like some have had happen. Or that my personal Kapex doesn't go up in smoke too. Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Tim Raleigh on November 01, 2017, 11:06 AM
Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.

It appears that they are replacing some units after they have been in repair once...
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on November 01, 2017, 02:58 PM
Here's to hoping and I'll be curious to see what if anything festool does to address the issues.

It appears that they are replacing some units after they have been in repair once...

What is this based on?

JNComplete was charged for his third repair back on 10/8.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on November 04, 2017, 07:31 PM
Not replacement, but I have heard of some repairs being covered by FT outside of warranty. I think this falls in to the warranty language of “at vendor’s discretion” or something to that effect.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Tim Raleigh on November 08, 2017, 09:48 AM
What is this based on?

User (ljraubner) on instagram.
The saw was 9yrs. old and bought used.

JNComplete was charged for his third repair back on 10/8.

All situations are different.
Tim
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on November 17, 2017, 05:28 PM
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.
It is physically very large, extremely heavy and the dust extraction isn't a patch on the Kapex, We had two (both brand spanking new) on hire a few years back and whilst they have bags of power the weight issue (they are the only mitre saw I've ever used which absolutely needed 2 men to carry them across site) was something everybody was concerned about. As a point of comparison, at the time I owned a Makita LS1013 and was regularly also using an LS1214 and a deWalt DW718. None of those tools was anywhere near as back breakingly awkward to move about as the Milwaukee. Haven't tried th Bosch glider, though.
 
My own Kapex (110 volt) is 16 months+ old and still working away nicely. Easily the most accurate and easy to use SCMS I've ever used, but obviously the motor issues some people have do tend to lurk at the back of my mind sometimes. Would I buy another one if this one failed - probably (but that would be that)

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: antss on November 17, 2017, 05:53 PM
Sure , I've actually experienced that myself from FT for other tools.   

But I have not heard of any of that with Kapex.  And like I said earlier, two members with not far out of warranty Kapex (and previously repaired) didn't receive that consideration.

So, don't base your Kapex decision hoping they will single you out.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on November 19, 2017, 12:59 AM
The nearest thing you have is a DW 780, Bosch and Makita.  That’s a pretty huge gap.

What about the 12" Milwaukee with digital angle finder? It doesn't get a lot of press, but I heard it's an excellent saw and rivals Kapex in the dust collection department.
It is physically very large, extremely heavy and the dust extraction isn't a patch on the Kapex, We had two (both brand spanking new) on hire a few years back and whilst they have bags of power the weight issue (they are the only mitre saw I've ever used which absolutely needed 2 men to carry them across site) was something everybody was concerned about. As a point of comparison, at the time I owned a Makita LS1013 and was regularly also using an LS1214 and a deWalt DW718. None of those tools was anywhere near as back breakingly awkward to move about as the Milwaukee. Haven't tried th Bosch glider, though.
 
My own Kapex (110 volt) is 16 months+ old and still working away nicely. Easily the most accurate and easy to use SCMS I've ever used, but obviously the motor issues some people have do tend to lurk at the back of my mind sometimes. Would I buy another one if this one failed - probably (but that would be that)

I have a DW 782 (Second Cousin to DW 780) It’s a heavy Son of a _____!  It would be hard to call it mobile by any means at 58 pounds.  I have a rolling stand that makes it manageable.  The newer Dewalts are lighter with a trade off on some durability.  It lacks the bevel accuracy of the Kapex.  I have to use Woodpeckers and Incra accessories to improve the Mark.  It ‘s held up well and been used outdoors in the winter when it’s -5 F outside without fail.

I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ear3 on November 19, 2017, 07:16 AM
So far I've had no problem operating my Kapex across several winters in my unheated garage shop.  Have you heard things to the contrary?


I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on November 19, 2017, 07:51 AM
Doesn't look like they made it work outside in the wintertime?  Don't tell David:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvnKLWHrDFA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvnKLWHrDFA)

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on November 19, 2017, 08:17 AM
Thanks for the post Peter...cool video, haven't seen that one.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on November 19, 2017, 08:54 AM
There is a thread here with that video.  In the thread you can read that David was not compensated for the video, and by looking at his post you can see that he DOES live and work in a cold climate.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/david-askew-integrity-construction-%27i-can%27t-afford-to-buy-bad-tools%27/ (http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/david-askew-integrity-construction-%27i-can%27t-afford-to-buy-bad-tools%27/)

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on November 19, 2017, 10:03 AM
Wow! He is brave...using his Kapex outdoors in such condition.

Mine is used outdoors (on my driveway) occasionally but only if it is summer, sunny and dry!

Cold climate...in the winter, my shop has an average temperature of 10 to 12C (when the heater is on) and much lower when the garage door is opened for photo-shooting purposes. On cold days (-15C and below outside), I hibernate and don't woodwork! I do all my finishing in the shop and then move the finished article indoors right away...repeat the same for every coat till it is done.

Life is much easier in the summer.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on November 19, 2017, 06:54 PM
Wow! He is brave...using his Kapex outdoors in such condition.

Mine is used outdoors (on my driveway) occasionally but only if it is summer, sunny and dry!

Cold climate...in the winter, my shop has an average temperature of 10 to 12C (when the heater is on) and much lower when the garage door is opened for photo-shooting purposes. On cold days (-15C and below outside), I hibernate and don't woodwork! I do all my finishing in the shop and then move the finished article indoors right away...repeat the same for every coat till it is done.

Life is much easier in the summer.

I wouldn’t want to use any $2k tool that wasn’t explicitly designed to operate outdoors.   
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Naildrivingman on November 19, 2017, 07:51 PM
I don’t know that the Kapex is strictly a climate controlled use tool, but I do know that I do not wish to subject mine to the rigors of day in and day out general use. I bought mine strictly for fine finishing. For heavier applications, I resort to my other SCMS.

I don’t do it this way because I want to baby the Kapex, but because I want the integrity of the Kapex not to be compromised by heavy use.  If I could justify owning more than one Kapex, then I may not proceed this way.  A friend of mine owns a cabinet shop and they buy Kapex for site work.  Every year they buy a new one and the older ones get retired down the chain based on condition and accuracy.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on November 20, 2017, 12:14 AM
A friend of mine owns a cabinet shop and they buy Kapex for site work.  Every year they buy a new one and the older ones get retired down the chain based on condition and accuracy.

FWIW...this is the same method that digital calipers exchange hands from the aeronautical industry. Once you hit that .001”-.0015” threshold, they’re put down the road. Most trades don’t need that type of precision or repeatability, so there’s a huge market for these gently used calipers.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on November 20, 2017, 12:25 AM
I wouldn’t want to use any $2k tool that wasn’t explicitly designed to operate outdoors.

If that’s the case, you’ll be digging the footings for your new home/garage by hand.  [jawdrop]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Svar on November 20, 2017, 01:13 AM
I’d be nervous to use a $2K Kapex in the bitter cold.  They don’t look like they made to operate outside in the wintertime.
It would probably manage better than others. In freezing temperature one of the most vulnerable parts is drive belt. Unlike almost any other SCMS, Kapex 120 does not have one, it's gear driven.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on November 20, 2017, 07:51 AM
The noteworthy risk issue with Kapex seems to be related to the adequacy of armature cooling under the higher currents seen with 120V operation.  Convective heat transfer is directly proportional to the temperature difference between the armature windings and the air temperature so Kapex armature cooling would benefit greatly from a 50F (28C) or so drop in air temperature.  I have used mine outside for several days in temperatures about freezing with no ill effects.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on November 22, 2017, 07:04 AM
I don’t know that the Kapex is strictly a climate controlled use tool, but I do know that I do not wish to subject mine to the rigors of day in and day out general use. I bought mine strictly for fine finishing. For heavier applications, I resort to my other SCMS.

I don’t do it this way because I want to baby the Kapex, but because I want the integrity of the Kapex not to be compromised by heavy use.
Precisely why I have a smaller deWalt SCMS for the more general sort of work where the super accuracy of the Kapex would just not be necessary

In freezing temperature one of the most vulnerable parts is drive belt. Unlike almost any other SCMS, Kapex 120 does not have one, it's gear driven.
The older Makitas (LS1013, LS1213/14, etc) also had a gear drive as do the current LS1016 and LS1018 models. But the bevel scales on them all are fairly illegible
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SoonerFan on November 22, 2017, 09:24 PM
I have a Kapex and so far it is trouble free (fingers crossed).  I read this entire thread tonight hoping (but not expecting) for an update from a Festool.  Alas, seems there are still a fair number of issues (who knows how many or what percentage of units have an issue).  No response from Festool as I assumed.

For now I will go back to using my saw, hoping it’s keeps working and then check back on some of these Kapex threads in a few months.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on November 22, 2017, 09:49 PM
I have a Kapex and so far it is trouble free (fingers crossed).  I read this entire thread tonight hoping (but not expecting) for an update from a Festool.  Alas, seems there are still a fair number of issues (who knows how many or what percentage of units have an issue).  No response from Festool as I assumed.

For now I will go back to using my saw, hoping it’s keeps working and then check back on some of these Kapex threads in a few months.

https://youtu.be/rY0WxgSXdEE

Just don’t play this track while you’re working in your shop.  It’s just bad luck.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SoonerFan on November 23, 2017, 08:36 AM

Just don’t play this track while you’re working in your shop.  It’s just bad luck.

I like Queen but don’t like bad karma so will avoid that particular track  [smile]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: 1toolshort on November 23, 2017, 11:01 AM
I have been watching the Kapex scenario play out for years.  I turned my buddy onto Festool, and he's bought everything over the last few years, (not everything, but almost!!) including the Kapex.  I do more finish carpentry work than he does, but I also do decks, and basement build outs.  I found for the price of the Kapex, I bought a DWS 703, Bosch sliding 10", and a Bosch sliding 8 1/2".  I've used the 10" Bosch for almost 20 years in the shop.  The DeWalt and smaller sliding saw go out on the job.  Everything is covered that I need.  I don't want to deal with 12" runout.  That configuration covers it all.
Couldn't be happier with the Festool name tools I own.  Wouldn't do anything different.  Kinda glad I never jumped on the Kapex bandwagon.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: shaneken50 on November 24, 2017, 01:27 PM
We build staircases and are hauling the Kapex in and out of the truck all of the time. What I like about it is it's lite and stays true to accuracy. The best saw to date for holding up for being moved around a lot. Yes it is worth the money for what we use it for and Yes the motor is a major flaw. It has been back to the repair shop four times in three years all for the motor. One time the motor started started to smoke, two times no power to cut though a 1x, one time it came back even with lack of power after a few cuts and died. They gave me a new saw after that and  that one went back for motor problems.
  I bought through a dealership, they have been great about sending it back and were the ones that said give him a new saw. The Road Show came to town and I told them about the problem, the guy standing next to me said he had the same problem. The Road Shoe rep said their working on it, to what degree is anyone's guess. We love the saw but it has a MAJOR motor problem.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: yetihunter on December 22, 2017, 07:23 PM
Hmmm, if the "armature" keeps blowing up on these saws; working out in the sub zero arctic winter would probably be
the best thing for it.   [big grin]



Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on December 22, 2017, 07:44 PM
With the warmer winters and summers I've had since 2010 mine is still cooking (running correctly) right along.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: yetihunter on December 23, 2017, 03:26 AM
My knees are what are getting warmer. Phantom soreness flashbacks. :D
I finally watched the video and noticed all of the TREX.
It was probably a totally different product then (back when it would get little dots everywhere from mold), but anyway, memories of carrying 20 feet of springy fun-times, driving me into the ground with each footstep.    [scared]







Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Joe Felchlin on January 01, 2018, 03:37 PM
I wanted to (almost did) buy the Kapex and it’s assorted accessories.
Having read all of the FOGer reviews about problems -
About Kapex tool failures -
And ongoing issues with Festool Service...
Led me to keep using my faithfull/excellent-
BOSCH 5412 12” Compound Miter saw.

After having major issues with a purchase -
Festool XL700 Domino (couldn’t be aligned)...
It’ll be a hot January day in Colorado...
Before I buy another Festool product.
Things have to change... Dramatically.
Regrettably,
Joe
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: houtslager on January 18, 2018, 06:29 PM
WOW , looks like my kapex is / was not the only lemon . I bought my first kapex a month or 2 after being released in the Netherlands. What grabbed my Euro's was the stated accuracy and of course the dust collection.
Well I needed to make over 400 dubbel verstek { double mitre ??? } joints in some thin 4mm red pine, only 4 inches in length so not to big a cut.
After the first 20, it was no longer cutting accurately    [eek]
Took it directly back to TTS in Mijdrecht , explained the problem again  ??? to their tech guy. After 2 hours of trying to "tune "the tool and getting the lasers to work correctly -
He and I gave , only to be told be said techie - "It's a Monday morning Machine "  [eek] [mad]
SO, was sent a new machine direct from Germany. Despite being told it was all ok , it never met the sales talk, never cutting the double angles 100% accurately, since then , now coming up to 6 years iirc , it has had 2 services , 1 in the UK and 1 in France. It's now having a 4th service as on the 3rd , here in the Netherlands, they did not dail the lasers in properly, and after the first cut after return the lower internal dust shroud broke, making the toop unusable  [mad] [mad]

My advice - DON"T BUY A KAPEX, next mitre saw purchase will be the BOSCH 12"one or DeWalt as these have larger capacity, just as accurate and 1/3rd cheaper.

Just my 2 cents worth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on January 18, 2018, 06:41 PM
WOW , looks like my kapex is / was not the only lemon . I bought my first kapex a month or 2 after being released in the Netherlands. What grabbed my Euro's was the stated accuracy and of course the dust collection.
Well I needed to make over 400 dubbel verstek { double mitre ??? } joints in some thin 4mm red pine, only 4 inches in length so not to big a cut.
After the first 20, it was no longer cutting accurately    [eek]
Took it directly back to TTS in Mijdrecht , explained the problem again  ??? to their tech guy. After 2 hours of trying to "tune "the tool and getting the lasers to work correctly -
He and I gave , only to be told be said techie - "It's a Monday morning Machine "  [eek] [mad]
SO, was sent a new machine direct from Germany. Despite being told it was all ok , it never met the sales talk, never cutting the double angles 100% accurately, since then , now coming up to 6 years iirc , it has had 2 services , 1 in the UK and 1 in France. It's now having a 4th service as on the 3rd , here in the Netherlands, they did not dail the lasers in properly, and after the first cut after return the lower internal dust shroud broke, making the toop unusable  [mad] [mad]

My advice - DON"T BUY A KAPEX, next mitre saw purchase will be the BOSCH 12"one or DeWalt as these have larger capacity, just as accurate and 1/3rd cheaper.

Just my 2 cents worth

Sorry to hear about your dis satisfaction.  Admirable that you continued to use the saw for that length of time.  Most people would have given up.  If you are indeed looking at the 12" Bosch I would love to hear your opinions after you get it and use it for a month or two.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 18, 2018, 07:24 PM
Admirable that you continued to use the saw for that length of time. 

Peter

6yrs? That admirable point is an understatement. I would have given up in 6 months or so in such circumstances as described by the OP.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: M williams on January 24, 2018, 04:25 PM
Ohh dear..it’s gone again!!. Kapex motor burnout no 2 in under two years. Getting really fed up with this saw now :(
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: andyraines on January 30, 2018, 01:00 PM
I am currently raging!! 😡
I have owned a Dewalt DW718 for over 10 years and it’s never missed a beat, it has slight blade wobble and I’ve replaced the motor bearings and bushes once. I decided to upgrade to the Kapex KS120 after seeing so many rave about them. When it arrived I must admit I fell in love straight away. Such an accurate saw and the dust extraction is second to none.
I’ve been using it lightly for 3 weeks now and today it decided not to work, it tries but the motor seems  jammed and it stinks?
I cannot believe I never read any of these threads on FOG before buying it, I feel so let down. The price for the saw is so expensive but I was willing to make the investment, I could have bought 3 new Dewalys for the same price as a Kapex with the UG Stand.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Tinker on January 30, 2018, 03:05 PM
I think you have 30 days from the date of purchase to take it back.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on January 30, 2018, 04:18 PM
I’ve been using it lightly for 3 weeks now and today
You're within the '30 days money back no questions asked', so you can simply return it for a full refund.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on January 30, 2018, 04:22 PM
Unfortunately I believe the poster is in a country where the return period is 15 days.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: IndyMike on August 28, 2018, 10:08 AM
I just picked up the TS 55 and the CT 36 and was looking at getting the Kapex to replace my Kobalt miter whose dust collection is atrocious...  I was directed to this thread and after reading this and doing a bit more research on my own - Festool has lost a $1,400+ sale here.

It seems to me that it really shouldn't be that hard for Festool to identify what is going wrong with these saws and to update a part/make a change to resolve it.

I do understand nothing lasts forever - and there will be outliers that fail much sooner, and that's what a warranty is for.  That said - there is no way I would spend $1,400+ for a saw that may or may not last more than a couple of years.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: brentasmith on September 05, 2018, 10:27 PM
Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever


I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on September 06, 2018, 07:52 AM
Festool has had plenty of time to evaluate the Kapex motor failures.  Even if they are only occuring at 1,000 ppm (1 per thousand) there has been a steady drumbeat here of consistent failure posts for what, at least two years.  Imagine the failure resulted in injury to the operator rather than just a dead saw...I suspect there would have been both a fix and a retrofit kit for all saws in the field some time ago.  This failure presents the kind of risk to Festool's and the Kapex's reputation that Festool should take a belt and suspenders approach and substantially upgrade all of the parts and subsystems in the Kapex that are in the failure path.  I suspect instead they are continuing to build a failure prone tool while they figure out the minimum cost and disruption to their tooling and process revision that is likely to work.  Meanwhile every week or so another Kapex owner sees the smoke let out of his pride and joy SCMS...pity!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on September 06, 2018, 09:15 AM
Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever


I bought my Kapex soon after they went on sale in the US. I had to get the miter adjuster fix that came out soon after the introduction.

My use ranges from very light to light by the standards of most people on this forum. I have had no issues with the saw like are being described here.

In defense of Festool, the percentage of motor failures appears to be very low. For example, if the failure rate is less than 1 per 1000, then it can be very difficult to pinpoint the cause.

After such a long time, they are now in a difficult position in a marketing and legal terms.

For marketing, it is tricky to make things right when doing so admits you have failures you do not understand. Hardly a great position for a premium tool company.

From a legal point of view, making it right for the customer could be viewed as admission of a problem that has been long known and ignored. That might put them in a position of being accused of knowingly selling defective tools. That would not be tolerated by any corporate legal team.

Festool's best hope is to discover a cause that can be recognized as unknowable in the general sense. If they could claim that, then the above issues can be avoided and customers can be dealt with in a fair manner.



Of course it is.  Especially since the failures cover a wide range of users and the terminology that people use  such as "light", "everyday", "heavy", "moderate", etc are all relative. And even if saws that get "light" usage don't fail, that is still useful info.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: deepcreek on September 06, 2018, 10:06 AM
I must admit that the repeated threads on Kapex motor failure have affected me.

I've had my Kapex going on ten years and originally used it to trim out a house I built for my Mom.  It was Craftsman style with custom molding and block paneling so lots of work.

Now my Kapex lives a life of luxury in a shop environment for a few cuts here and there.  Definitely not every day and often not even weekly.

Yesterday, I had to make a couple hundred cuts for a large project.

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.

Managing perception is as important as managing reality.

In my opinion, Festool's silence on the matter has hurt its reputation.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: tjbnwi on September 06, 2018, 10:13 AM
One of mine let out the magic smoke yesterday (the one that's about 10 years old)--don't have time right now to replace the armature--went out and bought another one.

The saw(s) have made money from the first day I've owned them.

It's not the first brand miter saw I've had cook an armature, won't be the last.

Tom
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: jimbo51 on September 06, 2018, 10:55 AM
"Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever."

My opinions are based on the experiences reported in this thread and on senior management behavior I witnessed working in two large companies. They are not based on my personal experience with the Kapex.

My opinions were about the challenges Festool is facing in dealing with this issue. Which of the challenges I mentioned relate to my level of saw usage?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on September 06, 2018, 11:59 AM

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.


I certainly share your angst...everytime I pull the trigger it makes me think about these Kapex threads. Is today the day?

The only other piece of equipment I've owned that's caused me the same amount of trepidation when I used it was a 1958 Chevy Impala with a 348.  [big grin]  Fire it up...cross your fingers...and hope you make it home.  But that was 50 years ago and it was kind of accepted back then, this is now 2018, expectation levels have changed over the last 50 years.   [dead horse]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on September 06, 2018, 12:10 PM
"Your usage puts you in an entirely different category than the ones experiencing failures... in other words your opinion isn't relevant what so ever."

My opinions are based on the experiences reported in this thread and on senior management behavior I witnessed working in two large companies. They are not based on my personal experience with the Kapex.


Useful and relevant opinions are not just limited to experience. People can offer helpful ideas or even advice based on observations and analysis, drawing on other experiences and assessments of theirs.

A case in point is Peter Drucker whom I admire for his insightful views and writings on organizations. He offered advice to governments, businesses, and non-profit entities. He had never been a CEO, a marketer, etc., but this Austrian thinker predicted, among other things, privatization and decentralization; the rise of Japan to economic world power; the decisive role of marketing (Facebook, Google. etc. were not even born!); and lifelong learning (the recent oil recession has caused many to take a new career path as their old jobs never came back).

I may never have used an XL (I have), but don't discount my opinion on it (if I have any), as I have had solid field experience with the DF500. Don't even discount the opinions of others who have only used a biscuit joiner but not a Domino joiner, because we shall look at the opinions themselves to decide what they are worth. Many tablesaw users, for example, are unsafe users, but I would not listen to them for their opinions on how to work safely in a shop, no matter how "heavily" their saws are used.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: IndyMike on September 07, 2018, 08:36 PM
So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke?  Is it an expensive replacement?  Can it be done by the end user?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on September 07, 2018, 11:33 PM
So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke?  Is it an expensive replacement?  Can it be done by the end user?

Armature mainly but there could be other parts.

Yes.

That really depends on the end user.  But for three years it's on Festool.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on September 08, 2018, 11:09 AM
So is it just the armature that needs replaced when they let out the magic smoke?  Is it an expensive replacement?  Can it be done by the end user?

See reply 72 in this thread.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/another-dead-kapex-55656/
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: demographic on September 09, 2018, 10:29 AM
Is the Kapex 60 Brushless?
If it is I iimagine I'll wait till Festool make a cordless version of that and keep using my old but reliable Makita 110 volt chopsaw in the meantime. Thats been working fine since 2003 or so.
Can't see me buying the 120 anyway as its a big numb thing to move about on a daily basis and I don't need the extra capacity now that I have a HKC.
In the UK we have also kind of got out of the massive crown moulding fashion so its very rare indeed that I need the capacity in both directions the 120 has.
If I had a woodwork shop I might think otherwise but I'm out o  site every working day and for me the big ones size outweighs its usefullness. The 60 however is appealing, as long as its reliable and ideally cordless.
Possibly with a cord that plugs into the battery housing like the new DeWalt flexvolt tools.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on September 09, 2018, 11:10 AM
Is the Kapex 60 Brushless?

I don't believe it is.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: IndyMike on September 09, 2018, 01:02 PM
Kapex is not brushless.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Tim Raleigh on November 04, 2018, 04:45 PM
It's not the first brand miter saw I've had cook an armature, won't be the last.

Pretty well sums up my attitude. Use tools, break tools, fix tools finish project.
Tim
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Kodi Crescent on November 08, 2018, 06:37 PM
This is the perfect opportunity to make a parody song to the tune of Cheech and Chong's "Up in Smoke".

"Up in smoke, that's where my Kapex goes..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUWD-FflZPI
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: john5mt on January 05, 2019, 12:51 PM
Just to help with the documentation bought mine in 2013 died 12/19/2018

 I used to believe it was a problem some people were having just because they were lemons.

Pretty sure now every kapex is a lemon.

I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.

BULL

every advertisement for the stupid thing shows it hooked up to a CT in a production environment.

between this and my carvex exploding my confidence in festool longevity is gone.

Gonna fix it because when it runs i really like it. But had to buy a big Yellow to get me through till the parts show up. Probably put an extra armature on the shelf so im not forced to wait for the repair next time.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 15, 2019, 06:21 PM
I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.

BULL

every advertisement for the stupid thing shows it hooked up to a CT in a production environment.


Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 15, 2019, 08:06 PM

Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.

There is an old engineering principle that a product needs to be engineered for the context you sell it into.  So if you are a car manufacturer whose home market is a temperate meticulously paved flatland and you decide to sell cars into the USA they'd better work in the very cold and the very hot on dirt and gravel roads and go up and down hills, etc.  If the Kapex depends on German electrical supplies to be reliable it should only be sold in Germany or the EU.  Don't get me wrong such mismatches can show up as a product is rolled out but there is no excuse for not fixing it 10 years later!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 15, 2019, 08:27 PM

Probably because the advertisements were shot in Germany, where they use the 230V version. Default circuit there being ~16A you can pick and match anything and get away with plugging it into the CT. It says "2400W" max here for what can be plugged into the CT.

There is an old engineering principle that a product needs to be engineered for the context you sell it into.  So if you are a car manufacturer whose home market is a temperate meticulously paved flatland and you decide to sell cars into the USA they'd better work in the very cold and the very hot on dirt and gravel roads and go up and down hills, etc.  If the Kapex depends on German electrical supplies to be reliable it should only be sold in Germany or the EU.  Don't get me wrong such mismatches can show up as a product is rolled out but there is no excuse for not fixing it 10 years later!

With 110V you will always keep problems. I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something.

But are the Kapex saws sold today still the same internally? I hope they changed what was broken?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SouthRider on January 15, 2019, 10:07 PM
"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 15, 2019, 10:30 PM
Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Amen...and that was a great statement...certainly made my day.

As an aside, I own a Milwaukee Holeshooter drill purchased by my father in 1948. He used it every day on the job in the HVAC industry until he retired in 1985. It's had 4-5 sets of brushes installed but it still works to this very day. It's been dropped from scaffolding and been swung by its cord. It still survives...it still works like when it was new. There's a lesson to learn here.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 16, 2019, 02:05 AM
"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on January 16, 2019, 03:54 AM
I've been told the same BS
don't use them on the same circuit as a CT
They're not meant to be used in a production capacity.
One of the reasons for buying Festool, for buying Kapex, is the superior dust extraction. And in the face of what we have in Europe, that is legislation mandating the use of class M dust extraction at all times on all tools which cut wood and wood-based products, it has become absolutely necessary to run a saw through a vacuum with automatic start. Secondly, if they aren't meant to be used in a production capacity why do Festool sell a 110 volt version of the Kapex in the UK? In this country we have two different voltages - 230 volts (nominal) @ 50Hz for general/domestic use and 110 volts (55+55 volts centre-tapped) @ 50Hz specifically for use on construction sites and in docks, harbours and on railways works. By selling any 110 volt tool here you are effectively stating that it is suitable for use in a production environment. This is why you rarely see low-cost Chinese power tools in 110 volt - they just aren't durable enough.

Does this mean Festool now saying that my £1500 saw/extension combination isn't suitable for the purpose I bought it for? Where did that comment originate?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: hemlock on January 16, 2019, 12:03 PM
I have refrained from weighing in on this issue for quite some time. I re-tooled my shop over the past 7 years with mostly Festool. I started because of the need for dust collection and got hooked on that and their quality.   Overall, I am happy with them.  I appreciate their build quality, dust collection, and performance--especially those that are innovative (e.g., domino). I have 15 different Festool "tools" (including MFT and LR32).  I do not have a Kapex.  I have a Bosch Glide 12" CMS.  I just couldn't justify the additional cost of the Kapex years ago.  The Bosch has performed extremely well; however, recently I began reconsidering replacing the Bosch with a Kapex for better dust collection.  I will not until the Kapex issue is addressed by Festool.  I understand Festool reads these posts.  I hope they do.  Frankly, its insulting to their loyal customer base to, at best, "explain away" the problem or, at worse, seemingly ignore it.  As a constructive comment for the problem, I hope the US version of the REB includes some explanation of how the motor in it addresses previous problems (hopefully it does).  However, I suspect the liability of acknowledging there was a problem will prevent that from happening; in which case I will not upgrade my CMS, and my view of Festool will be diminished more than it already is.   
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 16, 2019, 12:21 PM
Like many of the current owners of a Kapex, I am concerned about the possibility of a motor failure in my saw. But since I have the saw and it is the only CMS I have, I just enjoy it to the fullest. For those of you who are waiting for the release of a new Kapex that is "motor-issue free," your waiting may never end. But that is ok as long as whatever CMS you have is all that you need.

Festool has not officially acknowledged the existence of any motor deficiency in its Kapex, and we as consumers or owners do not know either how bad the motor issue really is. Waiting won't solve anything.

I know I wouldn't have waited because by the time I had finished waiting (if there was such a thing), my woodworking life might have come to an end, given my age. In the meantime without waiting, I have used my Kapex on many of my builds, with excellent precision and dust control. The risk (of failure) is worth taking in my case.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: vkumar on January 16, 2019, 12:26 PM

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]
@Coen you are implying that there is something inherently superior to 220 V power. Just like the Brits think that driving on the left side of the road is superior.  You have to realize that these are just standards. And as @SouthRider said "Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product." And the last point I will make is that Netherlands is 5 % of US population , and 0.4 % of US land area. You can convert from one system to another quite easily, not so in the US. And this is the main reason why the conversion to metric is difficult.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: duburban on January 16, 2019, 06:13 PM
This is a great post that gets to the current heart of this issue. Well put.

I must admit that the repeated threads on Kapex motor failure have affected me.

I've had my Kapex going on ten years and originally used it to trim out a house I built for my Mom.  It was Craftsman style with custom molding and block paneling so lots of work.

Now my Kapex lives a life of luxury in a shop environment for a few cuts here and there.  Definitely not every day and often not even weekly.

Yesterday, I had to make a couple hundred cuts for a large project.

With each start of the motor, I found myself worrying if this would be the cut where it died.

I know it's irrational but the perception is there.

Managing perception is as important as managing reality.

In my opinion, Festool's silence on the matter has hurt its reputation.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 16, 2019, 06:28 PM

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]
@Coen you are implying that there is something inherently superior to 220 V power. Just like the Brits think that driving on the left side of the road is superior.  You have to realize that these are just standards. And as @SouthRider said "Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product." And the last point I will make is that Netherlands is 5 % of US population , and 0.4 % of US land area. You can convert from one system to another quite easily, not so in the US. And this is the main reason why the conversion to metric is difficult.

Without devolving into a discussion about how the Americans kept the useless Imperial system from their former oppressors while we kept the metric system from a short French occupation...

20x more homes and population is the same relative work for conversion. Size at that point does not matter. Over the long run not adjusting is just gonna cost more. And yes, I don't only imply 230V superiority, it simply is superior. The cable losses are only 1/4th if using the same cables for the same amount of power.

Or look at what Japan has; both 50 and 60 Hz because in the 19th century two cities bought different generators...

We started out with Broad-gauge railway. Then when we reached the border we concluded that it was ultimately cheaper if you could just roll across it... and we converted everything to standard gauge. The Russians of course did not... and that's why it's still a pain to have freight trains from China to Europa.

But yes, conversion is often delayed. I definitely want to roll out your 1st amendment here. Something that can be done for free... but alas.  [crying]

Having said that all; it's not an excuse for a bad motor.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: SRSemenza on January 16, 2019, 06:34 PM
Lets not get too far into the OT marshland here.

Seth
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 16, 2019, 10:07 PM
Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]


Having said that all; it's not an excuse for a bad motor.
[/quote]

I have to agree with that, the 120 vs 240 thing never really made any sense to me. So if you have leaky boots and are standing in water, and if you contact a 120v wire, it’ll take you twice as long to die as opposed to touching 240v wires? The 240 volt option is just so much cleaner. Anyone that deals with low voltage circuitry fully understands the wire gauge vs wire length vs  curent capacity conundrum.

And bottom line is, a bad motor is still a bad motor, and your feet should be held to the fire 🔥 because of that.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 16, 2019, 10:57 PM
"I like to wonder why the US doesn't adopt 230 Vac and the metric system. After biting the bitter bullet once it's only savings. Or lead the way with 350 Vdc or something."

Because EVERY OTHER TOOL MADE BY EVERYBODY ELSE lasts for endless years on 110V in the US, and we don't need to retrofit the largest consumer market in the world over one bad product.

Lol, we retrofitted our entire country decades ago. Now pure savings. Double the power over the same copper, half the copper for the same power or half the losses with the same copper.  [tongue]

The US and our Canadian buddies don't need to retrofit anything.  99.9% of structures with electricity are 220-240VAC.   All houses in the US get both 120 and 240.  We just center tap it and get 120.  It's part of the evolution of the system (it was just 120V at one time). There hasn't been a push for the change because on the consumer level 120 work fine and is in theory safer due the the lower voltage. If you have been zapped by both, you prefer to be sapped by 120.   I'm not against fully going 240 (I'd like to see the change), but what gets lost in a lot of these threads is we have 240 now.  We just use it for large items like dryers, ovens, stoves, heating, air conditioning, welders, electric car chargers, etc.  We also have 240 plugs for low amp circuits,  just no one installs them. There is also confusion in code as to if you can have branch circuits with 240.    Since the number of items where 220 would be better than 120 is so few, there just isn't demand.

We also have 20amp 120 outlets.  They are even code for parts of the house.  You can plug both 15 and 20amp devices into these plugs.  So there is an infrastructure for 20amp, which would be great for these tools.  Yet I have never seen in my life a device with a 20amp plug on it.  An infrastructure install base of hundreds of millions of these plugs and they never get used.  I've tried to find devices that use a 20a plug and never found one.  So while going full 240 would be nice, we don't even use the 20a plugs as is, you aren't going to get support for it.

I think Festool could look at offering 20A models here. But that would mean beefing wiring up more in the tools.

The US is a 220-240V country just like Europe, we just ignore it most the time.  We have 3 phase power too, but it's only available to commercial users and/or the rare lucky person who has an existing 3P run going by their house they can connect into.

Festool could even offer some tools in 220-240 in the US. Most folks would have little issue wiring their shop up for them. People do it all ready with table saws and such.  But a contractor going into a house would be a challenge.  Not many are going to ask if they can un-plug their dryer to work.

Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

If the new KS120 arrives and it works fine in 120V version, no one will care anymore.  Even if the US was 220-240V all around, there are tools that Festool probably won't bring over for various reason (different safety regs, etc).
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on January 17, 2019, 02:16 AM
Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

That is not how it works with power tools. Key word here is universal power supply, and a power supply is a transformer, a big lumpy piece of neatly arranged copper wires. The transformer takes care of converting the input voltage to the lower voltage the connected device requires.

But power tools don't have a transformer built in. They use the full power of the grid directly connected to the motor. Any difference in voltage between a US and a European tool needs to be converted before it enters the tool, and that is why you need a separate step-up transformer if you want to use a 220v tool on a 110v circuit.

I am not so familiar with the US 220v split-phase system, but what I read says it always has to use 3 wires, two hot and a neutral that's connected to ground, and double insulated power tools only have 2 wires, so connecting one to 220v split-phase would totally be not up to code.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on January 17, 2019, 06:10 AM
Blah....blah.....blah....  Let’s take a new poll how many of2200’s have burned out. It’s a power hog. How many that have burned out where run through a ct.  I bet the answer is virtually zero. How many of ct’s Have burned out when these kapex’s burned when plugged into them, albeit virtually zero. Festool is not admitting they care, if they admit to a problem it will cost them. Maybe they quietly addressed the issue in version 2. Y’all get my point, if it’s the bad USA power grid how can they design the rest of their tools not to burn out. I just find it odd that their ct’s, routers, and rotexes are robust ant the ts saws and kapex have just enough power. Again albeit these three saws burn out the most.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 17, 2019, 10:38 AM

I am not so familiar with the US 220v split-phase system, but what I read says it always has to use 3 wires, two hot and a neutral that's connected to ground, and double insulated power tools only have 2 wires, so connecting one to 220v split-phase would totally be not up to code.

There is combinations of what you do.  Your basic description is correct.    Transformer on the pole take transmission line voltage 8k-30kVAC steps it down to 220.  Within that transformer is the center tap, that becomes neutral.   Those 3 wires enter the house.  At the house there is a grounding system, rods in ground.  There is a single point ground that connects to the Neutral at a single point in the house circuit, typically in the main panel, or an external disconnect.  So neutral has a reference to ground, and thus the Neutral side doesn't have a breaker/fuse (you can't get zapped if you connect yourself across neutral and ground).  Where folks get confused is Neutral is also a hot.  It is no different than the other 2 hots, But since it's referenced to earth, it serves as the center point (neutral).   Devices in the home connect to for 110 the neutral and a hot.  All receptacles since 1963 National Electric Code have a ground pin.  This pin may or may not be used by the tool/device. Generally not a lot of things still use the ground as most devices have moved to be double insulated.  So most the time devices have 2 prong plugs that have no neutral.   If you go 220, the wiring just grabs the 2 hots, no neutral at all.  Again use of the ground is optional for the device.  We also have plugs that are both 220/110 in the same plug. Ovens, Dryers tend to use these.   Terminology causes some of the confusion, as other places will just use L1, L2,  verses hot, neutral, etc.   In the end, the fundamentals are the same as you see in Europe.  If someone wanted, they could just never connect the neutral line up and have a completely 220V house.  Some folks do this to a degree, there are retailers who import in 220V appliances from Europe that are normaly offered here.  It's just a pain if you want a new toaster to import one because you wired your house fully 220.   Safety wise it's completely fine.  Again we have double insulated (groundless) devices and tools all over here.  The biggest challenge is Festool doesn't sell a plug-it cord with a US NEMA plug for 220V.  So most folks cut the end of and wire on a US plug.  This can get someone in an OSHA (Federal safety org) violated if your are a business.  The get around would find some sort of adapter, but most those work in different combos than required. A device to plug in Europe Outlets tends to output US 110 outlet, not 220.

Again if Festool wanted, they could offer some tools in their European version. Of course they would have to get them certified and develop another plug-it cord.  For shop based folks, these tools may be welcome, offer the high power tools in this.  But the take rate on these would probably be low. Mobile workers would not be likely to find much use for them.   Other than finding a 220 plug in a house a creative person could make a adapter box with 2 cords coming out of it,  then go through the place they are working and find 2 different 110V outlets that are on opposite hots, plug the cords in and now you can get 220.  This is functionally fine, but sketchy as all heck. But they would not be the first person to do this. No different than what happens directly in the panel.  In the US there is also the option that since most receptical have 2 outlets to them, you can break off the connecting tabs and power each outlet in the receptical by different circuits.  Current code requires if this is done that the 2 circuits have a common disconnect. Basically you have to use a 220 breaker (which is just 2 110V breakers with the handles connect the 2 together). This way when you kill power to one outlet it's killed to both. This is for safety.  What it means is any outlet wired this way is 2 110V outlets, but also spanning the 2 is 220.  Someone could make a cord plug that takes advantage of this.  This is basically what our larger  220/110 outlets do, just at the lower amps and using what is all ready there.    But still, the US looked at changing post WWII and decided not to and overall it's not a huge issue.  If anything just mandate more 220 plugs installed in new home construction. Some places are doing this, but it's the 50A dryer/welder plugs and they are in garages for EV car chargers.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on January 17, 2019, 03:03 PM
Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 17, 2019, 08:02 PM
The US and our Canadian buddies don't need to retrofit anything.  99.9% of structures with electricity are 220-240VAC.   All houses in the US get both 120 and 240.  We just center tap it and get 120. It's part of the evolution of the system (it was just 120V at one time). There hasn't been a push for the change because on the consumer level 120 work fine and is in theory safer due the the lower voltage. If you have been zapped by both, you prefer to be sapped by 120.   I'm not against fully going 240 (I'd like to see the change), but what gets lost in a lot of these threads is we have 240 now.  We just use it for large items like dryers, ovens, stoves, heating, air conditioning, welders, electric car chargers, etc.  We also have 240 plugs for low amp circuits,  just no one installs them. There is also confusion in code as to if you can have branch circuits with 240.    Since the number of items where 220 would be better than 120 is so few, there just isn't demand.

We also have 20amp 120 outlets.  They are even code for parts of the house.  You can plug both 15 and 20amp devices into these plugs.  So there is an infrastructure for 20amp, which would be great for these tools.  Yet I have never seen in my life a device with a 20amp plug on it.  An infrastructure install base of hundreds of millions of these plugs and they never get used.  I've tried to find devices that use a 20a plug and never found one.  So while going full 240 would be nice, we don't even use the 20a plugs as is, you aren't going to get support for it.

I think Festool could look at offering 20A models here. But that would mean beefing wiring up more in the tools.

The US is a 220-240V country just like Europe, we just ignore it most the time.  We have 3 phase power too, but it's only available to commercial users and/or the rare lucky person who has an existing 3P run going by their house they can connect into.

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.

Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.

How will 110V fry a 230V tool?  [blink] In some rare cases it could if you power a motor but then not being able to spin it.. But other than that?

Some folks have imported 220 tools from Europe and just put a US plug on them.

Also the difference for most products doesn't matter as they have universal power supplies in them.  Items like computers.  They take  50/60hz, 100-250VAC power.  So we use the same product as the rest of the world, it's just a different cord tossed in the box.  Festool could do the same if they wanted too.

That is not how it works with power tools. Key word here is universal power supply, and a power supply is a transformer, a big lumpy piece of neatly arranged copper wires. The transformer takes care of converting the input voltage to the lower voltage the connected device requires.


That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on January 17, 2019, 08:50 PM
That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.
As someone who lives and works in the only country in the EU where 110 volt power supply is mandated on construction sites I'm pretty sure if the rectified approach was smaller/lighter/more reliable at the same price as big, heavy copper and iron transformers we'd have switched over to them years ago. We haven't. We still have big, lumpy, heavy copper and iron transformers. I wish t'were otherwise
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 17, 2019, 10:46 PM

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.


There is no difference in insulation requirements.  All our wiring is 600V rated,   120V, 220V, 3P we use the same wire for all of it.   Also split phase isn't 120 and -120,   It's positive 120 both sides.

It's a mess in a sense,  yes pure 220V would be nice, but it's really not that bad.  We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15.  The others are specialty and plugs many folks will go their entire life and never touch.   This chart from Wiki shows all the possible plugs, but this is largely stuff no one uses or are for specific things.  Cell phone charger to Kapex 120 plugs into same outlet.

NEMA plugs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector#/media/File:NEMA_simplified_pins.svg)

Even if we were just 220V, we would still have many plugs as they have different usages and amps.   Something I think is different is Europe hasn't had the history with very large electrical load devices like the US has.  As you can see, even our 220 stuff pulls serious amps.  30+ amps on dryers.  Cooktops and ovens 60A.  If you have electric heat you could consume that easy.  Standard service to a US house is 240VAC 200A, 48kW of power. And starting in the late 90s houses with 400A services (96kW, aka 0.1MW) became more common.  The average power draw of a US house is over 2kW.

You have a massive install base to change, and since we are split phase (2 voltages), we can't just turn it up very easy.  If you boost the 120v stuff up to 240, everything 240V just became 480V. This is house the split phase came to be. Someone realized we could go from 120V to 240V but swapping out transformers for split taps and thus able to keep the hold 120V setups as is.  Outbuildings, sheds, old farms and some very old houses are still 120V only.  Changing the USA+Canada is the same as trying to re-wire all of Europe at once.  Also I assume Europe is broken up into a lot of small grids. The USA has 3 electric grids (East, West, Texas).  To crank up the voltage you would have to do the entirety of one at once, the east grid is half the population of the US, that's a lot of change. In theory you could do it street by street and just simply disconnect the neutral from the transformer, but now you have to go house by house and re-wire the internals of the panels, and best case replace a small number of appliances, but try to explain to most the population what they are benefiting by this change. Having to buy a mountain of step down transformers to plug old stuff in and have them around for a decade or 2 is a pain. A small country unifying to it's adjoining countries makes sense an is straightforward. Getting 2 countries that don't interconnect to anyone else to change is basically an impossible sell.

The plugs, switches, wiring, etc is general ok with it, most are rated to go to 277V and beyond.  But all the appliances and so forth would be a nightmare.  Not to go in a tangent but people here tend to have a lot of stuff, simple or minimal living isn't very popular. While most could live with a simple little electric hot plate, folks tend to buy a cooktop they can fry a Moose on and an oven to can bake an Ostrich in while their 9 tons worth of AC cools their 6000 sq ft starter home to 68F on a 100F day. So it's not just a couple items per household, it's a lot.  Also building code change cycles are a thing.  NEC has a 3 year revision cycle.  Then only after that happens IBC picks up that and they are on a 3 year cycle, but most states skip a cycle, so 6 years and then they don't do it right away. So you have over 10 years from the time the ball gets moving till the change becomes the law of the land.

While it would be nice to have 3phase ~220 a leg into every house and everyone gets a 300A service min would be great, it's just not going to happen.

Festool beefing up the design on their stuff for low voltage is much easier/cheaper.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 18, 2019, 01:00 AM

That's completely different. 120 and -120V still require less insulation. And what you describe is a complete mess with different circuits and plugs. We don't have split phase whatsoever. We have 3 phase by default, with a phase voltage of 230V. Most houses that don't have a 3-phase connection still have a 3-phase fuse holder and for €200 the grid company will add the two other fuses. An oven, dryer, washer, heater; all can be connected to a normal 230V 16A outlet with the Schuko plug. A phone charger can plug into the same socket with it's Euro plug.

Only for things like electric cooktops or heatpumps for heating your entire house we use different sockets.

We upgraded gradually from 127V to 220V. In same cases by just connecting between two different phases of 127V and for newer stuff straight 230V. Then when the older areas were converted to real 230V they got the earlier change in their circuit box reversed.


There is no difference in insulation requirements.  All our wiring is 600V rated,   120V, 220V, 3P we use the same wire for all of it.   Also split phase isn't 120 and -120,   It's positive 120 both sides.

Yeah, 120 Volts 180 degrees rotated.

It's a mess in a sense,  yes pure 220V would be nice, but it's really not that bad.  We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15.  The others are specialty and plugs many folks will go their entire life and never touch.   This chart from Wiki shows all the possible plugs, but this is largely stuff no one uses or are for specific things.  Cell phone charger to Kapex 120 plugs into same outlet.

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

NEMA plugs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector#/media/File:NEMA_simplified_pins.svg)

Even if we were just 220V, we would still have many plugs as they have different usages and amps.   Something I think is different is Europe hasn't had the history with very large electrical load devices like the US has.  As you can see, even our 220 stuff pulls serious amps.  30+ amps on dryers.  Cooktops and ovens 60A.  If you have electric heat you could consume that easy.  Standard service to a US house is 240VAC 200A, 48kW of power. And starting in the late 90s houses with 400A services (96kW, aka 0.1MW) became more common.  The average power draw of a US house is over 2kW.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.

You have a massive install base to change, and since we are split phase (2 voltages), we can't just turn it up very easy.  If you boost the 120v stuff up to 240, everything 240V just became 480V.

No, you can do it one block at a time. You rewire the circuit boxes to connect the 240V outlets between phase and neutral as opposed to between +120 and -120.

This is house the split phase came to be. Someone realized we could go from 120V to 240V but swapping out transformers for split taps and thus able to keep the hold 120V setups as is. 

Yeah, that's comparable to what happened here, but you never took the next step.

Outbuildings, sheds, old farms and some very old houses are still 120V only.  Changing the USA+Canada is the same as trying to re-wire all of Europe at once. Also I assume Europe is broken up into a lot of small grids.

False assumption. All of mainland Europe is interconnected. In 2006 a stack of maintenance, temporary disconnection and parallel overloading in Germany resulted in blackouts in in Italy and Greece...

Last year we had all the clocks move back and forth a few minutes all over Europe because some energy companies in the Balkans had some financial conflict....

During the night when we have surplus wind or coal power we export to Norway over a 450 kVdc cable. They use that to pump up water into high altitude lakes. Then during peak demand they let it drop down a generator and export it. (As green energy  [blink])

The USA has 3 electric grids (East, West, Texas).  To crank up the voltage you would have to do the entirety of one at once, the east grid is half the population of the US, that's a lot of change. In theory you could do it street by street and just simply disconnect the neutral from the transformer, but now you have to go house by house and re-wire the internals of the panels, and best case replace a small number of appliances, but try to explain to most the population what they are benefiting by this change. Having to buy a mountain of step down transformers to plug old stuff in and have them around for a decade or 2 is a pain. A small country unifying to it's adjoining countries makes sense an is straightforward. Getting 2 countries that don't interconnect to anyone else to change is basically an impossible sell.

You have to do it street by street since you cannot simply double the voltage across the whole grid as substations build for 10 kV will not hold 20 kV very long. You can think ahead though, like our grid companies are doing; they are slowly upgrading all the 10 kV ringnets to 20 kV. They buy medium voltage switchgear that is certified for 24 kV use and for the time being use them at 10 or 12 kV. Then when the entire ring has upgraded stations they will up the voltage.

The plugs, switches, wiring, etc is general ok with it, most are rated to go to 277V and beyond.  But all the appliances and so forth would be a nightmare.  Not to go in a tangent but people here tend to have a lot of stuff, simple or minimal living isn't very popular. While most could live with a simple little electric hot plate, folks tend to buy a cooktop they can fry a Moose on and an oven to can bake an Ostrich in while their 9 tons worth of AC cools their 6000 sq ft starter home to 68F on a 100F day. So it's not just a couple items per household, it's a lot.  Also building code change cycles are a thing.  NEC has a 3 year revision cycle.  Then only after that happens IBC picks up that and they are on a 3 year cycle, but most states skip a cycle, so 6 years and then they don't do it right away. So you have over 10 years from the time the ball gets moving till the change becomes the law of the land.

While it would be nice to have 3phase ~220 a leg into every house and everyone gets a 300A service min would be great, it's just not going to happen.

Festool beefing up the design on their stuff for low voltage is much easier/cheaper.

Yes, it would have been relatively easier to do in the 50's and 60s.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on January 18, 2019, 01:59 AM
That's the old style of power supply. These days it's rectified, then DC switched over a much smaller transformer (if needed). Depending on design and load it can work with even way wider ranges than 100-250V. For example; some laptop chargers will work just fine when fed 50V.

The charger is still a big lumpy device, though quite a bit lighter than a transformer, and it is still something a power tool doesn't have or need. My point was not to post an all inclusive list of current altering devices, merely to point why you can't put a power tool in the same catagory as other devices that run on electricity.

The universal power supply only works when it is used for appliances that need a (much) lower current than the grid supplies, because it needs conversion anyway, and not when it needs its full power, where the current is used directly without conversion.

@DeformedTree Your post above is one nice big clusterflap of confusion and code violations. That's not what you do with deadly voltages. The European 220v system uses one single socket and a single phase circuit for everything. The only exception is a 3-phase circuit for electric cookers, which is a separate system that's so different you can't confuse or mix stuff up. 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on January 18, 2019, 03:54 AM
Festool will likely never make a plug-it cable with a 220V US plug, as they AFAIK made the mistake to fit the 110V ones with the identical plug-it receptacle than the ones on 230V machines use. Offering a 220V plug-it cord would lead to people mixing different voltage devices, frying/burning both the 110V and the 220V ones by giving them the respective wrong voltage.

How will 110V fry a 230V tool?  [blink] In some rare cases it could if you power a motor but then not being able to spin it.. But other than that?
(emphasis mine). Reduced voltage can lead to it not spinning, effectively turning the one coil that is currently active into an electric heater (till it burns up).
Should it be enough to keep it spinning it'll likely draw way more current than designed, with a good chance of it being more than the wires (as they're ment to deal with a lower amperage as of higher design voltage) can take.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 18, 2019, 08:40 AM
Festool decides to sell a very expensive, inadequately engineered and validated tool into a market of 350 million people and the fanboys here decide the problem is in the now 120 year old AC supply system that seems to work perfectly for most other manufacturers of power tools and all other electrical equipment.  Yes of course...let's invest hundreds of billions instead of expecting Festool to be competent at engineering the products they sell.  Case closed!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 18, 2019, 02:04 PM
Yes of course...let's invest hundreds of billions instead of expecting Festool to be competent at engineering the products they sell.  Case closed!

I find the call for changing the 110v or 120v supply in N.A. to 220v unbelievable. It is a dead end if anyone hopes or thinks that is the solution to any real or perceived motor problem with the Kapex. No one seriously thinks the world revolves around Festool, eh?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 18, 2019, 11:00 PM
We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15. 

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.


I'm not sure if you are confusing the US plug with something else like the UKs BS plug.  An ungrounded 5-15 plug is more or less the same size as a Europlug, main difference is Europlug has fancy round pins.  Canada, USA and Japan seem to do just fine with it. We trust our kids to plug stuff in without issue.  Remember the voltage is also half, so even if something does go wrong it's not nearly as bad.  Also you are limited to 2.5A, thus that's like us being limited to 5A at 120V,  so your going to need a different plug for other things.  The plug North America and Japan use are probably the least issue.    Plug design is clearly something no one agrees on, as all around the world everyone has different ideas.  If the world is going to try to get North America to change, first the world needs to settle on a plug.  Just in Europe i'm coming up with over 14 plugs and that's not counting obsolete ones.  If there was a true global plug it would reduce one of the sticking points.  One of the first things that would come up during a conversion is do we unify the plug, and to what.  While we have applicable plugs it's not as good as getting to the same plug.

N.A. has strong energy codes that keep getting stronger.  We also have very large houses and build in very extremes.  Some live in the arctic, hot desert, rain forest, grassland, forest, etc.  A lot of Europe falls in a generaly mild band of temps. Not a lot of need for air-conditioning (most the US needs it to some degree either for cooling or dealing with humidity) and the atlantic currents mean your northern countries don't get that cold in the winter.  2 weeks ago is was 50F at my house, this weekend it will be below 0F.  I can be 105F in summer and -20F in winter.  Such extremes are typical of the northern half of the country.  If you need the AC, then you need power for it.  Only a sub-set of the country has Natural Gas service. It's not growing because it's to expensive to put in outside of dense neighborhoods. Older neighborhoods don't tend to see upgrades both do to cost and folks not wanting to change.  Gas companies just try to keep up with not having to many houses explode from natural gas. The systems are old and since it's very expensive to maintain right, it doesn't get maintained and thus gas explosions are very common. Boston had three towns evacuated and 100+ homes destroyed recently from gas when the over pressure systems failed.  Natural gas growth is in Power generation, it's killing coal at an extreme rate, so it's usage is centralized and makes electrons for our homes.  Areas without NG use Oil (not that much any more), Propane, Wood, sometimes Coal.  Electric heat took off in the 60s as electricity was cheap and we were building nuclear plants everywhere.  Now the big push is on Heat pumps. NG is ok, but even it's usage is going to have to end before long as it's better than say coal, but still a problem.  Nice thing with electricity is it's easy to make now that solar is cheap.  A lot of the country does use resistive heating.  It's simple to install, works great in small locations or where someone doesn't want to deal with propane/oil/wood delivery. Cost to run isn't that bad, especially as places with it tend to be small.  Still probably the bulk of homes built in the 60-70s were electric heat.  Mini-split Heat Pumps are about the only real upgrade option for those homes since they have no duct work system.

Again, I have nothing against the US going 220 all around.  But I think you are massively underestimating the challenge for it to happen.  North America has no basic reason to change, and there is basically no case you can make to people for the change.  Things like going full metric will happen much sooner and easier than getting rid of 120V.  Anything can be done.  This country doesn't do change well, even when the benefits are obvious and huge. Telling Joe and Jane homeowner that the neutral is getting disconnected and they will need to replace their electric panel, have every outlet, switch, fixture checked inspected and replaced depending on it's rating, and then deal with appliance replacements is going to get your run out of the country. From a North American standpoint we are extremely standardized.  Everything is the same plug and voltage.  We don't run into plugs from different countries, we don't have issues feeding across country borders, all the switches, lights, gear, etc get made here and or due to the shear size of the country justify the production for the US and Canada.  If one US state was different than the rest, that would be an issue. But they aren't.  The Netherlands is close to the combining  the US states of  New Jersey and Massachusetts in both population and size.  Those are small states.  If they were different than the rest of the country they would certainly figure out how to change to match the rest and it would be understandable. The conversion would also be way over schedule, budget, massive corruption and probably involve 7 or 8 governors going to jail over their dealings in the conversion.

There are a lot of things I'd like to see changed in the US, I'm very pro global standards.  Like I mentioned, I'd love to see 3phase and 220 to all homes. But I'm realistic on how this country functions that it's not going to happen and other things are way ahead in priority.  When it comes to power, I think most folks would be happy to just have reliable utility. Or get the power to their homes underground so they don't have power outages all the time. When is snows, is windy or a branch falls.  The transformer supplying my house is from the 50s and half rust. It can't support the power draw of the houses it feeds. The power company knows it needs to be replaced but they will not replace transformers until they explode.  Since it still functions they can't be forced to replace it. People want to see issues like this fixed. And yes, it would be easy to say that this is how you phase in 220 only.  But the reality is folks will take the old sketchy transformer over having to deal with re-wiring their house and changing appliances.  Even for those who say "hey this sounds good, lets do it"  the next problem is, "ok I converted my house, where can I buy a 220V toaster"  to which the reply will be "Europe".  Retail is not going to want to support a 20-30 year period of carrying 2 of everything.  Lawsuits will be everywhere with folks arguing "the government can't tell me my voltage"  "they want to take away your hair dryer"  "it's so they can force you to have to buy new appliances which they control".  There will be endless people talking about the harm to children 220V will cause.   If you want to get a sense of things, look up "Smart Meters" in this country, and check THIS (https://stopsmartmeters.org/) out.   Utilities putting in smart meters has brought these people out, I don't even want to think about the reaction to eliminating 120V.   Zoo's would have to provide Elephants with extra protection.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on January 19, 2019, 06:41 AM
All this talk because a couple kapex’s went poof ? What are all you people talking about ? Whatever y’all are smoking you sure aren’t sharing.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 19, 2019, 09:06 AM
All this talk because a couple kapex’s went poof ? What are all you people talking about ? Whatever y’all are smoking you sure aren’t sharing.

The Kapex died, no talk will heel it.  Blaming 120V or trying to re-wire countries or eliminate what is probably the most used single type of electrical plug in the world won't heel it.

Thus things end up in discussions with people learning about different parts of the world which as long as constructive/good spirited is useful so people don't make the same assumptions in the future. If the Kapex has an under-lying design flaw, it very well is due to those designing it not fully understanding users/usage of the tool in the 120V countries, or not understanding the nature of the electrical system in those countries.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 19, 2019, 08:22 PM
We effectively use 1 plug, a NEMA 5-15. 

Yes, but it's the same bulky plug. Did you ever compare the US plug on a phone charger to the europlug we have here? That US thing will cut your clothes, bags and skin while bending, then electrocute you when you stick it in the wrong way because the exposed contacts are way too long and allow touching them with your fingers while they are already live.

Yeah, these days tend to insulate more; that automatically reduces the energy needs. Standard connection in the Netherlands is 3x25A total 17.25 kW. Some other countries in Europe do have higher amperage connections, but since we near 100% of houses connected to piped natural gas, nobody heats their home with electric resistive heating.


I'm not sure if you are confusing the US plug with something else like the UKs BS plug.  An ungrounded 5-15 plug is more or less the same size as a Europlug, main difference is Europlug has fancy round pins.

No, i'm not confusing them with the monstrously large UK plugs. I have a bag full with leads with US and UK plugs here, supplied with stuff I either imported or stuff that's not localized and ships with two or three....

The US plugs are almost without exception way too sharp on the edges of the pins. And because the pins are so thing, they are very easy to bend. They are also not insulated halfway, like the Europlug is.

Canada, USA and Japan seem to do just fine with it. We trust our kids to plug stuff in without issue.  Remember the voltage is also half, so even if something does go wrong it's not nearly as bad.

Not having it go wrong with half insulated plugs is even better.

Also you are limited to 2.5A, thus that's like us being limited to 5A at 120V,  so your going to need a different plug for other things.

Yes, that means the leads can be very thin without any problem. You can run a ton of things on 600W. The plug is also thinner because it has round pins. So thinner lead, thinner plug, pins that don't cut you(r stuff), don't bend as easy and are halfway insulated. What's not to like? Did I say the 'fullsize' plug fits in the same outlet?

  The plug North America and Japan use are probably the least issue.    Plug design is clearly something no one agrees on, as all around the world everyone has different ideas.  If the world is going to try to get North America to change, first the world needs to settle on a plug.  Just in Europe i'm coming up with over 14 plugs and that's not counting obsolete ones.  If there was a true global plug it would reduce one of the sticking points.  One of the first things that would come up during a conversion is do we unify the plug, and to what.  While we have applicable plugs it's not as good as getting to the same plug.

Agreed. Like USB; that's the same all over the world. Although with USB-C now you never know what it can and cannot do...

N.A. has strong energy codes that keep getting stronger.  We also have very large houses and build in very extremes.  Some live in the arctic, hot desert, rain forest, grassland, forest, etc.  A lot of Europe falls in a generaly mild band of temps. Not a lot of need for air-conditioning (most the US needs it to some degree either for cooling or dealing with humidity) and the atlantic currents mean your northern countries don't get that cold in the winter.  2 weeks ago is was 50F at my house, this weekend it will be below 0F.  I can be 105F in summer and -20F in winter.  Such extremes are typical of the northern half of the country.  If you need the AC, then you need power for it.  Only a sub-set of the country has Natural Gas service. It's not growing because it's to expensive to put in outside of dense neighborhoods. Older neighborhoods don't tend to see upgrades both do to cost and folks not wanting to change.  Gas companies just try to keep up with not having to many houses explode from natural gas. The systems are old and since it's very expensive to maintain right, it doesn't get maintained and thus gas explosions are very common. Boston had three towns evacuated and 100+ homes destroyed recently from gas when the over pressure systems failed.  Natural gas growth is in Power generation, it's killing coal at an extreme rate, so it's usage is centralized and makes electrons for our homes.  Areas without NG use Oil (not that much any more), Propane, Wood, sometimes Coal.  Electric heat took off in the 60s as electricity was cheap and we were building nuclear plants everywhere.  Now the big push is on Heat pumps. NG is ok, but even it's usage is going to have to end before long as it's better than say coal, but still a problem.  Nice thing with electricity is it's easy to make now that solar is cheap.  A lot of the country does use resistive heating.  It's simple to install, works great in small locations or where someone doesn't want to deal with propane/oil/wood delivery. Cost to run isn't that bad, especially as places with it tend to be small.  Still probably the bulk of homes built in the 60-70s were electric heat.  Mini-split Heat Pumps are about the only real upgrade option for those homes since they have no duct work system.

Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Again, I have nothing against the US going 220 all around.  But I think you are massively underestimating the challenge for it to happen.  North America has no basic reason to change, and there is basically no case you can make to people for the change. 

Grid losses will be reduced, less mess with different plugs, etc. etc.

Things like going full metric will happen much sooner and easier than getting rid of 120V.  Anything can be done.  This country doesn't do change well, even when the benefits are obvious and huge. Telling Joe and Jane homeowner that the neutral is getting disconnected and they will need to replace their electric panel, have every outlet, switch, fixture checked inspected and replaced depending on it's rating, and then deal with appliance replacements is going to get your run out of the country.

When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

From a North American standpoint we are extremely standardized.  Everything is the same plug and voltage.  We don't run into plugs from different countries, we don't have issues feeding across country borders, all the switches, lights, gear, etc get made here and or due to the shear size of the country justify the production for the US and Canada.  If one US state was different than the rest, that would be an issue. But they aren't.  The Netherlands is close to the combining  the US states of  New Jersey and Massachusetts in both population and size.  Those are small states.  If they were different than the rest of the country they would certainly figure out how to change to match the rest and it would be understandable. The conversion would also be way over schedule, budget, massive corruption and probably involve 7 or 8 governors going to jail over their dealings in the conversion.

Not everything is the same voltage and plug if you make an 'exception' for heaters, washers, dryers, AC.... Ha, we can plug the washer and dryer on the same 16A circuit.

There are a lot of things I'd like to see changed in the US, I'm very pro global standards.  Like I mentioned, I'd love to see 3phase and 220 to all homes. But I'm realistic on how this country functions that it's not going to happen and other things are way ahead in priority.  When it comes to power, I think most folks would be happy to just have reliable utility. Or get the power to their homes underground so they don't have power outages all the time. When is snows, is windy or a branch falls.  The transformer supplying my house is from the 50s and half rust. It can't support the power draw of the houses it feeds. The power company knows it needs to be replaced but they will not replace transformers until they explode.

What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

Since it still functions they can't be forced to replace it. People want to see issues like this fixed. And yes, it would be easy to say that this is how you phase in 220 only.  But the reality is folks will take the old sketchy transformer over having to deal with re-wiring their house and changing appliances.  Even for those who say "hey this sounds good, lets do it"  the next problem is, "ok I converted my house, where can I buy a 220V toaster"  to which the reply will be "Europe".  Retail is not going to want to support a 20-30 year period of carrying 2 of everything.

Retail is already carrying 50 of everything... with or without case, with or without official calibration report, with or without [...]. They also carry all the films in both DVD and BD, the phone chargers in micro USB, Apple, USB-C, etc.

  Lawsuits will be everywhere with folks arguing "the government can't tell me my voltage"  "they want to take away your hair dryer"  "it's so they can force you to have to buy new appliances which they control".  There will be endless people talking about the harm to children 220V will cause.   If you want to get a sense of things, look up "Smart Meters" in this country, and check THIS (https://stopsmartmeters.org/) out.   Utilities putting in smart meters has brought these people out, I don't even want to think about the reaction to eliminating 120V.   Zoo's would have to provide Elephants with extra protection.

Good point. They tried to mandate smartmeters here too, but that didn't succeed . But they did it in the most dumb way. Lots of the "smart meters" have already been replaced at least once because they broke or were unsafe. Then of course it turned out the earlier smartmeters billed the user for the energy the meter used. And on top of that it billed poor power factor differently. It was supposed to not bill blind current... but they did. That was of course besides the whole discussion about privacy, wireless connection giving you cancer and what not. I'd say all the smart meter achieved was raise cost for everyone and provide eternal jobs for dozens of people doing nothing but replacing broken smart meters. I'd rather have they upgrade their ancient cable in the street...

We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: harry_ on January 19, 2019, 09:22 PM
I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC. With the exception of a handful of items, almost everything in the american home has a step-down to 'low voltage' someplace.

Led lighting...stepped down
televisions....stepped down
laptops/computers.... stepped down

Basically if it is not a 'major appliance' or does not have a motor, it is stepped down either on the cord or internally.

I am starting to see, finally, USB wall outlets installed into new homes on a regular basis (not enough though). Personally, I think it should be added to the NEC.

While I fully realize that a USB cable/outlet can only handle a small amount of current/power, the old school automotive cigarette lighter socket was good for 20 amps/275 watts. So there is room for something in between.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 20, 2019, 10:53 AM

plug stuff..


I think you would just have to live here.  We use one plug for everything*.  The other plugs are things you barely ever use or specialty purposes and they have a good reason for it. No one ever gets frustrated with plugs here as we have just 1.  While those other plugs exist, few ever un-hook a dryer and such. And for things like their RV or generator you don't want them the same.  We can't run say a dryer off the regular plug because 240V/16A isn't enough, dryers take 240V, 30-40A.  Keep in mind a lot of items don't use a plug and are just connected directly to junction box.  A slide in range will generally use a plug, but a built in cooktop or wall oven uses a direct connection to the junction box. Some of those plug options that were shown are due to the transistion to 4 wire from 3.  Before the 90s neutral and ground didn't have seperate pins.  Code now requires 4 wire, but you are allowed to connect via 3 wire if you have an old house, or an old appliance.


Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Mandating connection to something would end badly. Plus there is no way to implement that.  Forcing homes to be connected to a private company? Plus folks are trying to go off grid.  Same with electricity, plenty of place are not connected simply because their is no electric runs in the area. Even when the road has service, people find out that running power from the road to their building could cost them 20-30,000 dollars, they decide to stay off grid, use generator, install solar.


When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

Water lines were generally supplemental grounds here.  Houses have ground rod(s), that tie to the panel.  Other stuff is bonded (water pipes, gas pipes, etc) back to the ground system.  Changes to more plastic has causes changes there, generally confusion because people are un-sure what to do when something is a mix of metal and plastic.   Stuff like PEX in homes is still fairly new, lots of people still insist on copper, some cities/states only fairly recently began to allow PEX. 


What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

I don't know how your gov/utility interaction works.  Here they are classified as a public utility, which basically imposes some rules far as billing. But for the most part the government has no say over anything the utility does. They have a monopoly, so it's not like you can speak with your wallet. So they have zero motivation to improve things. They wait for parts to fail, then just fix it enough to be back running again.  This is why they don't go back thru and bury stuff. They will claim some sky high price to do it.  The reality is they just don't want to spend any money.  Since the government doesn't come after them for bad service and such, again, no motivation.  The main utility for California just declare bankruptcy after causing so many fires. They will just carry on as normal.  Of course you go to rural areas you have Electric Co-ops. This was the only way rural areas were able to get electricity starting in the 1940s. There you will find a large chunk of the system under ground, and well maintained. Amazing what non-profit utility does.

New developments and such generally have underground, but soon as you leave the sub, it goes back on a pole.  Like everything else, going back and replacing an above ground line with underground doesn't have a value add generally, so it's not going to change.  Running poles thru a wetland is easier than underground, and easier thru solid rock, over mountains, etc.  Poles have a place, but in towns, they really need to go away since folks want trees on their property but that always means trees falling on lines.


We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.

Everything is grandfathered here. Unless you are doing massive reno to something, old can stay. If you got knob and tube in your house, as long as you don't alter that part of the house it can stay.  In general until you open up a wall, it can stay, and even then it's just where your modifying.  This is for all aspects of building. No one gets forced to upgrade anything. Also probably safe to say most homehowners don't pull permits, thus no building inspection on their work. Plus once you leave cities/large towns there is no code-enforcement/permits anyway. States all have building code that apply to all, but without any code enforcement/permits people just wing it.  Generally people doing stuff understand what they are doing well enough or just do it the way it always has been done. So recent changes or minor things get lost to them.  This is changing more now that insurance companies are pressuring code enforcement to exist. But still, if someone doesn't pull a permit, it's not like anyone will ever know about what they did.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 20, 2019, 11:02 AM
I think DC will be what causes global standards.  If the world can get standardized on specs/plugs folks will just start adding DC to houses.  It's been tried before, but now due to solar and such has a better chance.

USB is a good example but it's also an example of the problem.  Folks started putting in USB plugs in walls a while back, now there is USB-C, so they now need to change. How long will USB-C be the plug?  And of course it is only good for small devices.

If DC can get it's act together it could replace AC for most consumer goods.  AC will be left for large loads, motors, induction cooking.

Something like powertools would probably stay AC, since I doubt any DC system would go beyond 100V.  What could happen is all tools become cordless, and makers sell AC-DC adapters that plug into the battery connection.  That is probably the idea situation.  If a Kapex death was fixed by just buying a new adapter, just like buying a new power brick for a laptop, it wouldn't be so bad.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 20, 2019, 11:20 AM
...aaaand as Kapexes continue to go up in smoke the focus here on the FOG is reengineering global electrical supply standards.  Interesting that Chinese small appliance manufacturers sell millions of cheap and functioning mixers, blenders and other motorized gizmos across the world while Festool cannot yet root-cause or remediate smoking motor failures in its overpriced and apparently dainty SCMS.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: six-point socket II on January 20, 2019, 11:24 AM
Honestly, I think it was one of the best decisions I've ever made to put outlets with additional USB-A sockets in. And if needed I gladly replace them with USB-C in due time.

I'm not running after every new gadget/phone, so it will be quite a while before USB-A is vanishing/ has totally vanished in this place. ;)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 20, 2019, 12:11 PM

plug stuff..


I think you would just have to live here.  We use one plug for everything*.  The other plugs are things you barely ever use or specialty purposes and they have a good reason for it. No one ever gets frustrated with plugs here as we have just 1.  While those other plugs exist, few ever un-hook a dryer and such. And for things like their RV or generator you don't want them the same.  We can't run say a dryer off the regular plug because 240V/16A isn't enough, dryers take 240V, 30-40A.  Keep in mind a lot of items don't use a plug and are just connected directly to junction box.  A slide in range will generally use a plug, but a built in cooktop or wall oven uses a direct connection to the junction box. Some of those plug options that were shown are due to the transistion to 4 wire from 3.  Before the 90s neutral and ground didn't have seperate pins.  Code now requires 4 wire, but you are allowed to connect via 3 wire if you have an old house, or an old appliance.

7-9 kW for a dryer? That's insane. Most sold model here is 1 kW. Only the cheap ones are inefficient and use 2,8 kW. Either can be connected on a normal outlet. Cooktops are usually connected over Perilex here (residential) or CEE plug (commercial). Direct wiring is fine too.

Untill recently connection to NG grid was mandatory for new housing with few exceptions. With like 1 year notice all new applications were banned from connection to the NG grid. Lot's of people bitched and whined before the first houses under the new rule were even build. It turned out just fine. We rarely ever have a problem with NG explosions.

Resistive heating here is about 2.5 times more expensive than heating with gas, so nobody does it. There was a short rage in the '80s, but that died off quickly.

Mandating connection to something would end badly. Plus there is no way to implement that.  Forcing homes to be connected to a private company? Plus folks are trying to go off grid.  Same with electricity, plenty of place are not connected simply because their is no electric runs in the area. Even when the road has service, people find out that running power from the road to their building could cost them 20-30,000 dollars, they decide to stay off grid, use generator, install solar.

The connection mandate was for new housing. The grids are owned by companies whose stock is fully owned by different parts of the government.

They even connected rural areas here. But given population density here, it makes sense. Even our "rural" areas are not near as uninhabited as in the USA.


When the water companies here switched to plastic tubing they just send a letter saying everybody had to stop using their stuff as earth connection and get their own earth electrode. Progress happens. People with asbestos on the outside of their roof also have to change it out on their own dime.

Water lines were generally supplemental grounds here.  Houses have ground rod(s), that tie to the panel.  Other stuff is bonded (water pipes, gas pipes, etc) back to the ground system.  Changes to more plastic has causes changes there, generally confusion because people are un-sure what to do when something is a mix of metal and plastic.   Stuff like PEX in homes is still fairly new, lots of people still insist on copper, some cities/states only fairly recently began to allow PEX. 

They have ground rods here too, or mats. But for some time they used the water connection for that. In some areas the ground is provided by the net.

What about the children when that thing explodes? Yeah, the overhead lines puzzle me too. It used to be the same here when going into Germany; the cyclepath ends, the wiring becomes above ground, the windows are smaller and no PVC rainwater piping on houses. The above wiring is less and less though.
But in NL digging them into the ground might be a lot easier since the soft soil everywhere.

I don't know how your gov/utility interaction works.  Here they are classified as a public utility, which basically imposes some rules far as billing. But for the most part the government has no say over anything the utility does. They have a monopoly, so it's not like you can speak with your wallet. So they have zero motivation to improve things. They wait for parts to fail, then just fix it enough to be back running again.  This is why they don't go back thru and bury stuff. They will claim some sky high price to do it.  The reality is they just don't want to spend any money.  Since the government doesn't come after them for bad service and such, again, no motivation.  The main utility for California just declare bankruptcy after causing so many fires. They will just carry on as normal.  Of course you go to rural areas you have Electric Co-ops. This was the only way rural areas were able to get electricity starting in the 1940s. There you will find a large chunk of the system under ground, and well maintained. Amazing what non-profit utility does.

The grid company is separate from the companies that own the power stations. The grid company can however force these companies to produce in case of shortages. The grid company might be a private company, but all the stock is owned by the government. The companies that own the power stations all have to 'rent' the same grid. Everyone can pick and choose between a dozen different companies for power. Nobody really cares for that "competition" here as it was just fine before. Now it's also fine but the power companies make adds now... They get new customers by giving them a "free" iPad...
I've long had the idea that in general private companies in the US offer better service than private companies here, but the complete reverse with government-owned stuff.

New developments and such generally have underground, but soon as you leave the sub, it goes back on a pole.  Like everything else, going back and replacing an above ground line with underground doesn't have a value add generally, so it's not going to change.  Running poles thru a wetland is easier than underground, and easier thru solid rock, over mountains, etc.  Poles have a place, but in towns, they really need to go away since folks want trees on their property but that always means trees falling on lines.

For a country were companies mandate that employees hold the rail when going up or down the stairs those poles + above ground lines are a bigger danger I would think.

We already have the standing rule that with substantial changes to the electrical installations you have to conform to the newer rules. But policing on that is nonexistent. They still sell used houses for half a million euros without rcd's.

Everything is grandfathered here. Unless you are doing massive reno to something, old can stay. If you got knob and tube in your house, as long as you don't alter that part of the house it can stay.  In general until you open up a wall, it can stay, and even then it's just where your modifying.  This is for all aspects of building. No one gets forced to upgrade anything. Also probably safe to say most homehowners don't pull permits, thus no building inspection on their work. Plus once you leave cities/large towns there is no code-enforcement/permits anyway. States all have building code that apply to all, but without any code enforcement/permits people just wing it.  Generally people doing stuff understand what they are doing well enough or just do it the way it always has been done. So recent changes or minor things get lost to them.  This is changing more now that insurance companies are pressuring code enforcement to exist. But still, if someone doesn't pull a permit, it's not like anyone will ever know about what they did.

Here it's just the professional electricians saying you will not be insured in case of
I think DC will be what causes global standards.  If the world can get standardized on specs/plugs folks will just start adding DC to houses.  It's been tried before, but now due to solar and such has a better chance.

USB is a good example but it's also an example of the problem.  Folks started putting in USB plugs in walls a while back, now there is USB-C, so they now need to change. How long will USB-C be the plug?  And of course it is only good for small devices.

If DC can get it's act together it could replace AC for most consumer goods.  AC will be left for large loads, motors, induction cooking.

Something like powertools would probably stay AC, since I doubt any DC system would go beyond 100V.  What could happen is all tools become cordless, and makers sell AC-DC adapters that plug into the battery connection.  That is probably the idea situation.  If a Kapex death was fixed by just buying a new adapter, just like buying a new power brick for a laptop, it wouldn't be so bad.

https://www.directcurrent.eu/en/ pushes a DC standard with 350Vdc. They converted some greenhouses to fully DC, saving energy.


I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC. With the exception of a handful of items, almost everything in the american home has a step-down to 'low voltage' someplace.

Led lighting...stepped down
televisions....stepped down
laptops/computers.... stepped down

Basically if it is not a 'major appliance' or does not have a motor, it is stepped down either on the cord or internally.

I am starting to see, finally, USB wall outlets installed into new homes on a regular basis (not enough though). Personally, I think it should be added to the NEC.

While I fully realize that a USB cable/outlet can only handle a small amount of current/power, the old school automotive cigarette lighter socket was good for 20 amps/275 watts. So there is room for something in between.

LED light bulbs often have a lot of LED's in series. There is not much stepping down there. They often sell these buls in two configurations; with one series string for 230V area and two parallel series strings for 110V.

Going 12V everywhere would be a huge PITA since you would tenfold the current. Lots of phone charger already lose 20% in the cable...

If you tenfold the current, you tenfold the voltage loss. But 1 volt lost on 110V is not a problem. 10 volts lost on 12.... is.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on January 20, 2019, 02:36 PM
I see the US residential market going to 12VDC before we go 220VAC.
To wire a house 12VDC is about the worst thing you could do: Way thicker cables needed to carry the amperage, problems with voltage drops on longer lines, switches and plugs with vastly reduced lifetime caused by arcing, ...

Can we get back on topic now?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rollin22Petes on January 27, 2019, 07:04 PM
Well our shop Kapex has gone out again this makes 4 times absolutely ridiculous. So I decided to give Festool a call well that was a mistake the young man I talked with said I was probably using a dull or dirty blade. I've been a professional woodworker longer than this young gentleman has been alive and told him that was not the case well then he said the saw has a lot of electronics in it. Ok I get that but have an 8 man shop with tools from the cheapest harbor freight heat gun to $130,000.00 BIESEE cnc and everything in between and no other tool has these problems. Well the next thing he said is I don't know what to tell you it's just a trim saw by this time if I could have reached through then phone I probably would have punched him square in the face well maybe not but I sure felt like it. So what does that even mean its just a trim saw can I only cut small piece  of wood? if you take a look in some of there catalogs it shows people cutting large pieces such as 2x6's or 8/4 material I'm not sure about you guys but I don't consider that trim to me that is  misleading or false advertisement ? I forgot and mention that saw is out of warranty so I debated on getting it fixed or not. The thing is I really like the saw so I sent it in for repair and to my surprise Festool repaired it for free so I have to give them credit for that and I have always had good experiences with the repair department. The saw came back in a timely manner and had a bunch of new parts installed it didn't even need so a huge THANKS to the guys in service. Interesting thing on the card they send back stating what has been repaired there is no longer a box to check for the Armature it just says motor components. I really don't see how people keep buying this saw and I really fell sorry for those folks who just don't any better. I know Festool would never acknowledge it but I hope the model coming this has a addressed these issues I would love to buy a second but not until have reassurance that motor problem has been resolved. I know people get tired of seeing these kinda post but a  saw that has went through 4 motors in 4 years I couldn't keep silent I'm pretty disappointed. I thought the saw was built for the toughest demands obviously not.   
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jaybolishes on January 27, 2019, 09:10 PM
There isn’t anything different in the new kapex motor. It’s the same motor. If someone buys the new one just cross your fingers and roll the dice and enjoy it for the 3 year warranty while you’re covered.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 27, 2019, 10:16 PM
A $1500 CMS for trim work only? I would become the town's laughing stock if I told my woodworking friends that was what I bought a Kapex for! It must have been an ill-prepared response on the part of the Festool service fellow.

I wish Festool did come up with a new motor for its new Kapex and that the new motor could be installed in the old generation of Kapex. I would have been willing to pay to have the new motor installed -- removing the cloud of worry on my saw once and for all.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 27, 2019, 11:04 PM
There isn’t anything different in the new kapex motor. It’s the same motor. If someone buys the new one just cross your fingers and roll the dice and enjoy it for the 3 year warranty while you’re covered.

And how do you know this? It hasn’t been released yet in the states and the new Kapex still hasn’t been entered into Ekat.

Even when it’s entered into Ekat, the part numbers may or may not be significant.

Just curious as to your insight on this because I’m also a Kapex owner.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 27, 2019, 11:52 PM
I wonder if the poster was commenting on the repaired unit having same motor as it would have had before it failed.

As you say, we know nothing about the new one.  Even if the motor was 100% the same one, you can be sure Festool would give it a different PN just so people can't say it's the same motor.   Reality though is I don't think anyone thinks the new one will be the same motor. I would lean more towards Festool spec'd a motor that will run fine even if it's down to like 80V, pulling 25A.  They know it will be a bad day if the new one starts killing motors.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: onevw on January 29, 2019, 08:47 AM


I have a Kapex but do not use it for heavy work.
It does look as though Festool just designed this saw for light use and did not design any extra protection in the system for work past the light use design.

One good thing is this post has not been deleted by Festool yet, so too cover up any problems with this saw.

This looks like a need for damage control at the executive level. The Germans to not do this very well. It's like never admitting defeat and pushing the problem off to the customer. Just look at BMW, VW, Audi, and some others.

This lack of company control is a problem with the controlling directors of the company and lack of control does have negative impact on the BRAND.

As a X owner when I found out we had generated this type of problem Instant forced terminations took place to save our investment in our BRAND.
 
What do you all think?

FYI

I own and use many Festool products for personal use 25 systainer's so far, but in business use we try not to buy it and look for USA/UK Machines tools. We have found these systems can be pushed past the design limits.



Rick
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 29, 2019, 10:07 AM
While many would agree with you, it will still keep coming down to the matter that we will never know how many saws had issues. It very well may be a small number of them or some specific use case/environment.  So it's easy to go after Festool, but they very well could be just as baffled as users, and it could also be a very small percentage of sales.  Internet has been good/bad here.  It allows people to find stuff out that they never could before, thus companies pushing really bad products do get filtered. At the same time it can cause a small issues on a small number of units to look like a massive problem when it's not.

If it was an easy fix, Festool would have done a running change long ago and moved on.  So they very well don't know why they fail. This happens, I have seen in my career folks chase an issue and apply changes, beef stuff up, etc and it didn't fix it, simply because the issue was something far more nuanced then it looked like on face value.  Products end up with these issues because of this. They made it through testing in development because the testing, design specs, etc don't account for on obscure condition in the design space. The same process that has been used for decades with no issues for some reason didn't catch something this time.

This is why I suspect we will see a motor beefed up in all ways on the new model, with the hope of covering it even if they might not fully understand the issue.

We also take folks on their word of what they were doing/have done with their saws when they failed. I hope most people are honest, but human nature is always there and people will tone down their actions even if they have no idea they are.  More than a few saws have probably died when the user was doing something clearly bad for it, but that doesn't mean others didn't do everything right and it failed.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 29, 2019, 11:29 AM

Just look at BMW, VW, Audi, and some others.


Rather reminds me of the Audi unintended acceleration issues in the late 70's and early 80's. It's literally taken Audi 20+ years to claw their way back from that debacle.  [eek]

https://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration/
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: vkumar on January 29, 2019, 12:01 PM
I accept what you say @DeformedTree , that sometimes it is hard to find the root cause of failures.  However you do not find competitive saws from Dewalt, Milwaukee, Ridgid, Makita, Hitachi failing, since these saws outsell Festool by a good margin I would guess that even a small number of failures would be blown out of proportion. Their users have the same exposure to the internet just like Festool does.  Look at the number of youtube videos on these saws.  Perhaps it is the speed control which these saws lack is the culprit, or what Festool has to do to the motor windings to achieve speed control. There is also the culture behind that does not accept blame (witness Audi in the eighties with sudden acceleration, VW recently with dieselgate, Takata airbags and so on). I too have an extensive product development background and feel that Festool has not done enough to make this problem go away.


While many would agree with you, it will still keep coming down to the matter that we will never know how many saws had issues. It very well may be a small number of them or some specific use case/environment.  So it's easy to go after Festool, but they very well could be just as baffled as users, and it could also be a very small percentage of sales.  Internet has been good/bad here.  It allows people to find stuff out that they never could before, thus companies pushing really bad products do get filtered. At the same time it can cause a small issues on a small number of units to look like a massive problem when it's not.

If it was an easy fix, Festool would have done a running change long ago and moved on.  So they very well don't know why they fail. This happens, I have seen in my career folks chase an issue and apply changes, beef stuff up, etc and it didn't fix it, simply because the issue was something far more nuanced then it looked like on face value.  Products end up with these issues because of this. They made it through testing in development because the testing, design specs, etc don't account for on obscure condition in the design space. The same process that has been used for decades with no issues for some reason didn't catch something this time.

This is why I suspect we will see a motor beefed up in all ways on the new model, with the hope of covering it even if they might not fully understand the issue.

We also take folks on their word of what they were doing/have done with their saws when they failed. I hope most people are honest, but human nature is always there and people will tone down their actions even if they have no idea they are.  More than a few saws have probably died when the user was doing something clearly bad for it, but that doesn't mean others didn't do everything right and it failed.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 29, 2019, 02:38 PM
Perhaps Festool needs to rebrand the Kapex SCMS as the Kapex DTMS (Dainty Trim Molding Saw) so that users don't try crazy stuff like crosscutting a 2x4 or a piece of hardwood lumber that might strain it beyond its intended use?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on January 29, 2019, 04:28 PM
I ordered the replacement parts for mine as I like the saw. Mine lasted the better part of 7 or so years with moderate use. I did some looking before I ordered, but could not find anything I liked better.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Rollin22Petes on January 29, 2019, 08:26 PM
I'm sure my Kapex was repaired with the same motor as all the previous 4 that have burned up. I would like to think with Festool coming out with a new model they would have addressed the motor issue as  they are well aware of it. I'm sure if they did they'll never acknowledge it so I guess only time will tell. It really sucks I like the saw a lot and would buy another I'm just not willing to take a $1500 gamble.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 29, 2019, 09:42 PM
I accept what you say @DeformedTree , that sometimes it is hard to find the root cause of failures.  However you do not find competitive saws from Dewalt, Milwaukee, Ridgid, Makita, Hitachi failing, since these saws outsell Festool by a good margin I would guess that even a small number of failures would be blown out of proportion. Their users have the same exposure to the internet just like Festool does.  Look at the number of youtube videos on these saws.  Perhaps it is the speed control which these saws lack is the culprit, or what Festool has to do to the motor windings to achieve speed control. There is also the culture behind that does not accept blame (witness Audi in the eighties with sudden acceleration, VW recently with dieselgate, Takata airbags and so on). I too have an extensive product development background and feel that Festool has not done enough to make this problem go away.


Part of the issue is it's not like you are talking about a recall issue, no one can get hurt with it, or property burnt to the ground, etc. So a recall won't happen. It would come down to the company deciding they want to fix them.  Then you have a whole knew issue, everyone will turn around and want their saw replaced even when its working fine.  Then the next time some people have a tool fail on them, they will demand another recall for that tool, Pandora's box is now open.  The best case is they find the root cause and a fix that they implement at the factory and any tools that get returned for repair gets fixed, eventually all is good.  This doesn't look to be happening since we aren't seeing new PNs for the bits.  So that tells us that either there is no easy/cheap fix or they just don't understand the problem after this time.  If the cost of repairing dead saws or potential loss of sales is less than the cost of implementing a more intensive fix, then they aren't going to change things.  But since there has been no "R" model where they change the design and don't say anything (like the change to the TS55 so it doesn't have the garbage tilt lock design), this again would generically point to they don't know the root cause of the failure.

I doubt they haven't tried to solve it.  It probably has some relation to the speed control and features other saws do not have.  It's probably something in the more dark arts of engineering.  EMI, electrical harmonics, vibration, timing of switching, something causing unanticipated in-rush currents in specific conditions, etc.  Stuff that is just really hard to work out.  And since the tools that fail are being used in different countries than they are in, it becomes really hard to see what it happening when it fails. I won't be surprised if they simply haven't been able to reproduce the failure.  And to be fair to them, if you simply can't reproduces a failure, it's near impossible to solve the problem.  Some industries eventually send people out in the field to observe product being used, which often identifies the problem very quickly as there was key info not being conveyed.  "upon visiting customer, it was observed owner, spouse and adult live at home children all weigh over 400lbs, premature transmission failure may be result of constant 2000lb occupancy load in car no previously reported".   This sort of on site observation is going to be very hard with hobbyist or professionals working within other peoples homes, and being part way around the world.

There is no way that they haven't tried to solve this.  But if no one has seen new PNs (revisions) in EKAT, and tools come back with the same model parts, its pretty clear they either don't have a change that can be implemented in the current product, or they simply haven't been able to solve it.  No enterprising person is buying up dead kapex and implementing their repair and selling them for a profit that we know of, so it doesn't look like outsiders can figure it out.

This of course makes a new Kapex interesting, since if they don't know what went wrong, they might not be able to avoid the same issue.  It's hard to go after any company to hard when there is an issue they can't figure out and no one else has an answer too. This happens, there are products out there in the world with failure modes the manufactures simply don't understand why/how. They tend to result to the problem dying out, or work around to prevent the mode from happening where they can (which often cause complaints by folks who are now mad the product doesn't work the same). 

This isn't like them not offering a tool in a country, or stop making things, or their removal of metric tools. Those are things that are active choices by them. When a company makes these sorts of tools for decades and they work, and one tool has a problem, it's clearly not that they aren't competent, or have proper processes, sometimes they are just stuck.

Now if years from now we learn they have known the exact issues and how to fix it and it's cheap and easy but they just don't want to, that will be bad.  I doubt we are looking at a Remington 700 series rifle trigger with a design flaw known for decades and they just didn't want to spend the few bucks to fix it.

For sure if the new Kapex has the same issues, their issues will be large.  But of course they might just discontinue the 110V model if that happens.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 29, 2019, 10:00 PM
For sure if the new Kapex has the same issues, their issues will be large.  But of course they might just discontinue the 110V model if that happens.

Well if that’s the case, they’ll also have to discontinue the 230/240 volt model that they’ve also had issues with.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 30, 2019, 08:34 AM

For sure if the new Kapex has the same issues, their issues will be large.  But of course they might just discontinue the 110V model if that happens.

Yes, perhaps it's time for Festool to admit that it does not possess the engineering skills to produce tools that work in the context they are used.  Imagine Mercedes Benz deciding to leave the North American market because the use conditions are different there than in Europe.  Instead they do what every other global business does and they institute engineering design, development and validation processes that ensure that their products work well and are durable in all market conditions where they are sold.  What a concept!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 30, 2019, 09:00 PM

For sure if the new Kapex has the same issues, their issues will be large.  But of course they might just discontinue the 110V model if that happens.

Yes, perhaps it's time for Festool to admit that it does not possess the engineering skills to produce tools that work in the context they are used.  Imagine Mercedes Benz deciding to leave the North American market because the use conditions are different there than in Europe.  Instead they do what every other global business does and they institute engineering design, development and validation processes that ensure that their products work well and are durable in all market conditions where they are sold.  What a concept!

Car companies do leave and or never enter the US market because they don't want to re-design certify for the US market.  Many sprinter van owners would tell you Mercedes shouldn't have tried in the US market as they clearly didn't want to design to handle salted roads, those things dissolved instantly.  Non-US car makes have a history of not designing cars to work in the US/N.A. market which leads to problems, discontinuing models, damaged reputation, and abandoning the market, or redesigning vehicles heavily where they become US only models.  Even the US based companies do this where they have completely different models for the US as the global models often would not work here. And a lot of the US models are never sold elsewhere.  Not much purpose for a Ford Raptor in the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on January 30, 2019, 10:42 PM
And a lot of the US models are never sold elsewhere.  Not much purpose for a Ford Raptor in the Netherlands.

Well, we have the taxes in such a way that if you drive around in a tank, you will pay for it... As a consequence less supersized cars and safer traffic. US cars also lagged behind in gas mileage bigtime for a long time. Since gas is about 2.5 times more expensive here.... the calculation becomes different.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 30, 2019, 11:49 PM
And a lot of the US models are never sold elsewhere.  Not much purpose for a Ford Raptor in the Netherlands.

Well, we have the taxes in such a way that if you drive around in a tank, you will pay for it... As a consequence less supersized cars and safer traffic. US cars also lagged behind in gas mileage bigtime for a long time. Since gas is about 2.5 times more expensive here.... the calculation becomes different.

Correct, having mechanisms that force people to make more rational decisions helps things a bunch, still, even without, vehicles end up different based on where they go. I wish very much we taxed base on mileage/displacement/engine size/etc.  With no constraint, everything grows, thus if you want just a basic vehicle with small efficient engine, and all around practicality, it doesn't exist.  Everything must be 300-400HP, power everything, 3 row seating, etc. This is how you get people who commute to their office job in an Ford F450 dully with nearly 500hp/1000ft-lb torque able to tow 30,000lbs and it might get used to move a jet sky 3 times a year, and then they complain with fuel prices go up.

On mileage, what is lost is 1) mileage was often shown using different definitions of a gallon, which made European cars look like they went further because they used a bigger gallon. 2) The biggest thing was emissions, the US went after emissions hard in 1970, long before Europe did this. Mileage was not the focus, emissions was.  In Europe the focus was on mileage, not emissions.   This sends things in different directions. US had larger engines with a lot of emissions systems. EU would have small turbo engines, these engines make power efficiently, but terrible emissions.  When EU started to work on emissions starting in the 80s this started the shift to engines there gets a bit bigger and more US like.  At the same time as the US began to look more at mileage after emissions had largely been dealt with, the engines began to get smaller and turbos more common.  Today, the EU and US spec engines are very similar and often the same.  2 Places had different focus, with the other working the other focus later, and thus the 2 eventually converged.  This is why you no longer see situations where if a car was solid in both regions the biggest EU engine might be the smallest US engine.  Similar lines drove US gas engines vs EU diesel engines,   US auto trans usage vs EU manual trans usages.  Regulations and users started things very different and eventually converged.   Globalization has got cars closer to being the same around the world, with far less changes required to bring into the US.  Still, crash test aren't the same yet, and countries have conflicting requirements.  Dumb laws will keep being issues, the US has the chicken tax from the 60s, so 25% take on imported trucks kills those models, companies tend not to invent a new model built in the US, they just don't bother.  Also 25 year import ban prevents people from speaking with their wallet to get the models they want, This law was directly result of Mercedes, people were importing models not sold in the US, people didn't want to deal with Mercedes charging massive markup in the US to keep the illusion of them being luxury cars to US buyers.

 People here would love to be able to buy the wonderful cars folks in the EU, Japan, Australia get,  but car companies have ensured we can't buy them.  Import ban goes away, you would have ships of LR defenders, small hatch backs, unimogs, various basic utility vehicles heading to the US, all the stuff we could never have, or not have in decades, or only have for insane prices.  Not long ago the feds seized people's Defenders from their driveways because the importers paperwork had some issues.  Someone buys a 25 year old vehicle and has it seized!

NAINA is not a festool thing, it's an everything thing.  Big problem of being a large economy, it makes it easy for companies and governments to block importing of stuff because there is enough market for stuff to be unique to the country.  Good news is the past few years, suddenly some retailers are starting to sell to those in the US, now you can even buy stuff from Amazon sites outside the US, so a few things get better.  In the past year I've had a few things come from other countries, it's kind of a weird special treat that just was not a common thing to happen outside of private party transactions or family mailing stuff.

There are things I very much wish Festool didn't customize for north america, like removing metric markings.  If they only sold 220v tools, it would be interesting, folks would adjust like they do with other 220 tools, but would probably be an issue for the portable contractor, so that is a change that makes sense to adapt to a market. Of course their is plenty of global market for 110V tools,  (UK jobsites, US, Canada, Japan, various Caribbean and south American countries, North Korea) so it's not as specialized as some might think.

Adapting to countries is a hard thing, sometimes you have too, sometimes it makes sense, and other times folks really wish they didn't change it (cars here are the classic example, folks ask for the European model to be brought to the US, instead we get some ruined version if we get anything).  IKEA is an example of doing it right, they try their best to sell the exact same item as the rest of the world gets. But when it comes to their kitchen system, they "had" to adapt it some to work with north american kitchen logic/design.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on January 31, 2019, 06:13 AM
As big critic of the kapex ( not because it’s so bad but because it’s good but a few small changes could make it great), reading all this meandering know it all chatter about everything makes me want to go out and buy a kapex, especially the ks 60.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on January 31, 2019, 08:59 AM
As big critic of the kapex ( not because it’s so bad but because it’s good but a few small changes could make it great), reading all this meandering know it all chatter about everything makes me want to go out and buy a kapex, especially the ks 60.

I hope you get your wish and in the future you can report on your KS-60 experiences.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on January 31, 2019, 09:11 AM

Car companies do leave and or never enter the US market because they don't want to re-design certify for the US market.

Yes indeed, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, et al have failed miserably at adapting their products to the US market.  Festool has been selling the Kapex here in the US for over 10 years.  For at least 3 years we have a growing drumbeat of armature failures and Festool continues to sell the same saw and sees the same failures and the silence is deafening.  Fanboys providing a smokescreen for Festool just encourages their head-in-the-sand approach.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 31, 2019, 09:24 AM
As big critic of the kapex ( not because it’s so bad but because it’s good but a few small changes could make it great), reading all this meandering know it all chatter about everything makes me want to go out and buy a kapex, especially the ks 60.

+1

I think I' be tempted to trade in my Kapex for a KS 60, nice & light.  [smile]

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Michael Kellough on January 31, 2019, 09:58 AM
For small stuff I bought the Milwaukee M18 7-1/4” saw. So far so good with limited use and nothing critical. Found a conical adapter in a box of stuff that allows the M18 vac to connect to the saw. Dust collection was very good with fresh pressure treated stock, but that swarf is heavy so it maintains it’s trajectory unlike dry fine dust.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Vondawg on January 31, 2019, 11:18 AM
DeformedTree’s statement got me thinking ...do you think since the Kapex is the only speed controlled mitersaw (I know of) that THAT might be the root cause (or big contributor) of motor failure? How many long lasting users just run your saws full speed most all the time? I know slower for alum.,plastics etc. is great but I almost never turn down the speed...maybe twice. I realize there’s electronic circuitry for that but ....just wondering.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 31, 2019, 11:45 AM
Hopefully Festool is not ruling out anything if it is working on solving any real or perceived motor issue. But the CT extractors or sanders all have variable speed controls, and why just the Kapex, if it is really is the culprit?

Still using my Kapex (three years old) in the same way any hobbyist would be using his or her SCMS (regardless of brands).  No complaints (so far).
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on January 31, 2019, 12:07 PM
But the CT extractors or sanders all have variable speed controls, and why just the Kapex, if it is really is the culprit?

Ya, as far as variable speed tools go, the Kapex is 1600 W, the TS 75 is 1600 W and the OF 2200 is 2200 W.

Haven't heard of many armature issues with the TS or OF tools.  [cool]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on January 31, 2019, 12:33 PM
Ya the Kapex is 1600 W, the TS 75 is 1600 W and the OF 2200 is 2200 W. Haven't heard many issues with the TS or OF tools.
My TS55 and TS75 both go into protect mode (i.e. slow running) when they are on a ropey power supply, By that I mean a power supply with low voltage, such as we get on 110 volt construction sites in the UK from time to time. My OF2200 just refuses to run at all. Most of the time the solution is to keep my site transformer outlets padlocked so nobody else can plug into them.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on January 31, 2019, 12:58 PM
Exactly! Couldn't the same "protection" that is available to the TSs & routers be built into the Kapex?

The more I think about it, the more I think I need not worry about my Kapex, until proven otherwise. [laughing]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on January 31, 2019, 01:10 PM
For small stuff I bought the Milwaukee M18 7-1/4” saw. So far so good with limited use and nothing critical. Found a conical adapter in a box of stuff that allows the M18 vac to connect to the saw. Dust collection was very good with fresh pressure treated stock, but that swarf is heavy so it maintains it’s trajectory unlike dry fine dust.

I've been eyeing this up for small trim jobs.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: James Biddle on January 31, 2019, 02:00 PM
For small stuff I bought the Milwaukee M18 7-1/4” saw. So far so good with limited use and nothing critical. Found a conical adapter in a box of stuff that allows the M18 vac to connect to the saw. Dust collection was very good with fresh pressure treated stock, but that swarf is heavy so it maintains it’s trajectory unlike dry fine dust.

I've been eyeing this up for small trim jobs.

I just picked up that same saw with 12Ah and 6Ah batteries.  I also bought a Makita 10" SCMS about a year ago.  I bought both and the batteries from the sale of my Kapex.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on January 31, 2019, 06:48 PM
One thing that I have noticed about the kapex’s use on site( note not an excuse for Festool but...) ; First off it has a true soft start and is one of the slowest saws to get up to speed. I noticed that many carpenters some experienced some not have a bad habit of cutting before full speed is reached and the kapex is especially bad here as it comes up to speed slowly. Secondly When the saw is set up on site I have randomly gone up to the saw and the speed control is not at max where it should be for cutting wood. The dial is too easy to move. It should be remotely located and/ or indexed. This is where Festool should look. Just my 2 cents. But what do I know with 30 years of experience.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on January 31, 2019, 07:01 PM
Cheese and Peter :

This is why I want a ks 60. I do not like any of the other small saws. The ks 60 is light and goes 60 both ways and has good dust collection. Here is my go to setup for serious work, a Makita ls1219l on a sawhelper. I have 4 stops and multiple wings. I love it for big jobs. I like a 12” saw for vertical cut. But when I need to move around or have small quick jobs I would like something smaller, ks 60. The Milwaukee 10” battery saw has some appeal but I found the quality low and the non existent dust collection a no go.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Lettusbee on January 31, 2019, 07:18 PM
How did you attach the saw helper to the makita? 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 31, 2019, 09:25 PM
But the CT extractors or sanders all have variable speed controls, and why just the Kapex, if it is really is the culprit?

Ya, as far as variable speed tools go, the Kapex is 1600 W, the TS 75 is 1600 W and the OF 2200 is 2200 W.

Haven't heard of many armature issues with the TS or OF tools.  [cool]

This could just be getting further into their problem. Lets say it does link back to the speed control for a moment, they very well designed it using the same design, but a few things change since they didn't just repackage guts directly.  So you are the engineer, you have effectively copied the design that has worked in your other products, made adjustments where needed for that specific tool packaging/layout/etc.  Works great in lab, work great in testing, goes thru all the quality testing and is moved into production and then you start getting dead ones back.  You will be baffled, and if you have used the same design in other tools and it worked, it's going to be that much more frustrating.  Something is now different, but you just can't figure it out. 

Again if I the were changing PNs over time, or new models never have the issue, I'd say they figured it out. If nothing has changed it probably means they having figured it out, and if this has been going on this long there is probably many a people in the company who have given it everything trying to solve this and failed.  This is where you get less angry at them and feel more sorry for them if they have been yelled at in meetings for 10 year or had their job threatened etc, because they can't figure it out.   If festool knows the answer has a fix and simply didn't want to do it, especially if it's cheap and easy that is a major bad on them.  But if they haven't been able to solve it, or it's simply something they can't fix without bringing out a new saw, then there just isn't much you can expect them to do.  Pulling the saw from the market could be an option, and then people would massively complain about not being able to buy it anymore.

There is basically no paths that don't cause other problems for Festool on this, so they very well have just chosen to let it all run it's course.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 31, 2019, 09:28 PM
For sure if the new Kapex has the same issues, their issues will be large.  But of course they might just discontinue the 110V model if that happens.

Well if that’s the case, they’ll also have to discontinue the 230/240 volt model that they’ve also had issues with.

How many have failed and is it known to be the same issue.  Some kapex's are going to die one way or the other without a real design flaw.  I have assume 240V deaths were just statistical failures, not anything related to the 110V model issue.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on January 31, 2019, 09:47 PM

Car companies do leave and or never enter the US market because they don't want to re-design certify for the US market.

Yes indeed, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, et al have failed miserably at adapting their products to the US market.  Festool has been selling the Kapex here in the US for over 10 years.  For at least 3 years we have a growing drumbeat of armature failures and Festool continues to sell the same saw and sees the same failures and the silence is deafening.  Fanboys providing a smokescreen for Festool just encourages their head-in-the-sand approach.

I'm not sure what your saying here,  Car companies do fail to adapt to the US market, and leave (the french companies, various smaller Japanese and Korean companies, etc).  They bring models that tank in the US because they didn't understand the market.  They bring models that burn them for years or cause them to go back to the drawing board.  They also keep selling massively flawed models (rust being a major one that continues to baffle non-US makers).  Many of course never even try, thus why the US doesn't have all the brands the rest of the world sees.  The brands you list all have had periods, especially when they first came to the US where they just didn't get the market and made a lot of failures.

1 tool having an issue is not a whole company having an issue.  Every company has a lemon from time to time.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me as being a fanboy, far from it as I have plenty of issues with what Festool has done in the US.  Not grabbing a pitchfork and torch going after a company over something is not being a fanboy.  Like often when it comes to companies and product it's easy to throw stones but with rolls reversed, you wouldn't have a good answer either.   Become president of Festool tomorrow, call a meeting to solve the Kapax 110V issue, your engineers tell you "we don't know why the fail" or "we figured it out, the fix cost 850USD per saw" or some similar response, what would you do?  This is where reality kicks in.  Folks say things like armature failure like it's so easy as a bad armature.  I can almost guarantee it's not that simple, if it was, they would have fixed it.

Folks here in engineering or product developement know that when stuff fails, having people think you can "just fix it" "have an answer by 4pm" "push the change out in 2 weeks" and so forth is not how it works.  People yelling helps nothing, and thinking you will always be able to solve it is not realistic. Add cost constraints  or Public relations angles to things to the mix and nothing is so easy.  It sucks when stuff you work on fails, it sucks even more when you just can't figure out why it fails.

We do not know the problem with the Kapex, we do not know if Festool does or does not understand the problem.  Going angry mob on them without knowing some solid parts of the situation that only folks internal to festool would know is not the answer.

Lack of things changing is the good sign that it isn't something easy or cheap.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Coen on February 01, 2019, 12:04 AM
Of course their is plenty of global market for 110V tools,  (UK jobsites, US, Canada, Japan, various Caribbean and south American countries, North Korea) so it's not as specialized as some might think.

Especially North Korea has a huge market  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jaybolishes on February 01, 2019, 12:05 AM
I’m not  sure what you are saying here either. Sounds like you want people who have multiple motor failures to just say oh well,  lemons happen, lody da.  You  are making a ton of assumptions in that long response. The only point that matters is the armatures are failing and that’s what is important. Keeping pressure on this issue is what’s important. Not to try to stab in the dark as to what festool may or may be doing.  A direct response from Festool should be demanded at this  point. What the heck is going on? This is the biggest lack of a company standing behind their product I can think of.  Instead of backing their product which is ridiculously priced and offering an explanation, they hide and act like its a figment of users imaginations in their silence. If you’re not concerned about the issue then that is fine and dandy but there are a lot of customers who are. This whole situation is an utter embarrassment. If I produce product with my own company and a client has an issue, I don’t hide and hope they go away. This is precisely what’s happening here.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Joe Felchlin on February 01, 2019, 09:33 AM
I continue to read this elongating thread with interest -
Vaguely remembering a similar circumstance happening a long time ago:
Ford’s Edsel (named it after one of the Ford sons).

The Edsel had some great innovations for its time such as a rolling dome speedometer. And its Teletouch transmission shifting system in the center of the steering wheel worked well at first.
Other design innovations kept pace with the cutting-edge accessories and trim features growing in popularity in the mid-50s. These Included ergonomically designed controls for the driver and self-adjusting brakes.

But... The car was plagued with shoddy workmanship. Many of the vehicles that showed up at the dealer showroom had notes attached to the steering wheel listing the parts not installed. A myriad of other problems continued to be ignored by Ford.
The car just never lived up to the hype.
And... People stopped buying ‘em - Buying Chevys, instead.
Keep on just waiting and watching these problems, Festool.
Old business saying: “Ignore your customers. They'll go away.”

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on February 01, 2019, 09:57 AM
Old business saying: “Ignore your customers. They'll go away.”

A little extreme in this case. I don't see anyone leaving Festool for a different brand over one tool. There are lots of alternatives for mitre saws, some good and some not so much. How about whoever sets up the polls on the site create one for Kapex owners so we can get an idea of the failure rate among members of the FOG. It is most likely a small subset of all Kapex owners, but might be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on February 01, 2019, 10:37 AM
Exactly! Couldn't the same "protection" that is available to the TSs & routers be built into the Kapex?

Here's some interesting conjecture from RicK Christopherson that starts on Reply #7.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/kapex-is-dead-!!!/
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Joe Felchlin on February 01, 2019, 10:37 AM
JimH2:
You may be right. But... I wonder...
How many faithful current Festool buyer/owners of a variety of their products -
Read this long, ongoing lament about Kapex problems/failures -
And would REALLY like to buy one... But, just won’t take the risk.
I’m one of them.

These Kapex problems/failures -
May, or may not be, a small number of all the Kapex sold.
But, in the business of marketing - And ultimately, the selling products -
PERCEPTION IS (BECOMES) REALITY.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on February 01, 2019, 12:10 PM
JimH2:
You may be right. But... I wonder...
How many faithful current Festool buyer/owners of a variety of their products -
Read this long, ongoing lament about Kapex problems/failures -
And would REALLY like to buy one... But, just won’t take the risk.
I’m one of them.

These Kapex problems/failures -
May, or may not be, a small number of all the Kapex sold.
But, in the business of marketing - And ultimately, the selling products -
PERCEPTION IS (BECOMES) REALITY.

Mine bit the dust two weeks ago and I ordered the parts to repair it. I have a Dewalt SCMS that I use when I don't need absolute precision. It is holding me over until I get mine repaired (parts arrive today). The Kapex is the only tool I have ever seen anyone complain about. I have been using Festool since the early 2000's, slowly replacing other brand tools as they reached EOL or where the functionality of the Festool equivalent exceeded the current tool. I'm not jaded as I have quite a few Mafell, Dewalt and Bosch tools.

I've never been disappointed with any of them and while I am disappointed the Kapex failing, I have had it since it's release, and I knew statistically the end was coming. The only other failures I have had is the outlet on my CT22 and I had an issue with my OF1010 being stiff. Went through the troubleshooting with service and ended up just buying a new base and shaft. Fixed the issue. I don't ever remember dropping, but do use it a lot.

I do agree too many are reported as failing on FOG compared to other tools, but other than that I don't notice any significant failure. At least those posted here.

If I did not already own one I definitely would not take the leap and buy one and I certainly won't replace this one (or repair) if it fails again. I am always surprised how quick these are snapped up as refurbs knowing the history and propensity to fail. You are right to sit it out until it is resolved.

Just curious what is your SCMS of choice?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Joe Felchlin on February 01, 2019, 03:51 PM
JimH2:
My SCMS: Bosch 5412L Sliding Compound Miter Saw -
It’s mounted on a Bosch TracRac T3B Portable Miter Saw Stand.
It’s hooked up to an all metal Dust Deputy (with a metal drum) -
And my faithful Festool CT33 Dust Extractor.
Swapped out the Bosch OEM blade (wasn’t a bad blade) -
And replaced it with a Forrest Chopmaster blade (a great blade).

10+ years old -
This saw/setup cuts everything - Thick or thin - Hard woods or soft -
Absolutely true to the degrees set... Like going through butter.
I check it regularly, but rarely ever have to adjust anything.

Once in a while, I wish I could find a reason to “upgrade” to something newer.
But, that saw won’t “die”. It just keeps on cuttin’.

Full Disclosure:
I’m a Hobbyist, who uses my tools often, and in my shop.
So, the caveat here, is they don’t have to take the handling of regular -
Transporting - Setup/Tear down - And the heavy use of the Professionals.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on February 01, 2019, 05:11 PM
Lettusbee. Bolts right into the extension wing holes.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on February 01, 2019, 10:16 PM
I’m not  sure what you are saying here either. Sounds like you want people who have multiple motor failures to just say oh well,  lemons happen, lody da.  You  are making a ton of assumptions in that long response. The only point that matters is the armatures are failing and that’s what is important. Keeping pressure on this issue is what’s important. Not to try to stab in the dark as to what festool may or may be doing.  A direct response from Festool should be demanded at this  point. What the heck is going on? This is the biggest lack of a company standing behind their product I can think of.  Instead of backing their product which is ridiculously priced and offering an explanation, they hide and act like its a figment of users imaginations in their silence. If you’re not concerned about the issue then that is fine and dandy but there are a lot of customers who are. This whole situation is an utter embarrassment. If I produce product with my own company and a client has an issue, I don’t hide and hope they go away. This is precisely what’s happening here.

What you are expecting is not realistic or how companies work.  No one wants a product they buy fail, and no company wants a product they sell fail.  There are warranties, Festool fixes them.  As can't be stressed enough no one here knows the scope of the problem, or if there truly is one. I think it's safe to say the 110V Kapex have an issue, how wide spread, common, etc it is, is completely unknown.  If I owned a Kapex and it died, I wouldn't be happy.  But I wouldn't automatically assume there is a massive problem, design flaws, conspiracies to hide the truth, or expect the company that made it bend over backwards to answer me.  The idea that Festool owes and explanation is off base. This would assume there is in fact a known problem. It opens them up to all forms of consequences by making a statement. This is why lawyers make sure to give direction not to talk, as it can only make things worse. It gives fuel for class action lawsuits and so forth.  Also what do you expect them to say?  They would have to have something to say, and they very well don't.  If it's under warranty they fix it, if it's past warranty, it's past warranty. I assume festool fixes out of warranty stuff for a cost, its up to someone to decide if they want to or not.

Festool makes a lot of tools, they don't generally fail. Issues of one tool is not make or break. As folks on Kapex threads have comment before, if their saw dies they will go buy another, and just factor is as part of business. People know they might fail, everyone wishes the chance was there, folks want to see a knew one and hope there won't be the issue. We all accept when we buy something that it's unlikely to last forever. We accept that warranties expire and at some point it could die and you need to buy something else.  Most folks don't buy stuff that the loss/destruction of said thing is a catastrophic problem.

Do you think festool isn't under pressure?  Warranty returns cost money, lost sales from people being to wary of buying one hurt them.  No one ignores the issue or says it doesn't matter, but that is no where near demanding something out of Festool.  If this is the biggest example of a company not responding to something you really haven't looked far.  Companies almost universally never comment on anything of this nature.  Go online to websites dedicated to almost any activity that involves ownership/purchasing of products from companies.  Almost universally all companies have a product that people feel has an issue, or there is in fact an issue, with people acting the same as with the Kapex, demanding the same thing from the manufacture, and universally no company responds. The companies fix things under warranties, bring out other products and plug away.  One general theme is those who yell the most have unrealistic expectations of things and spent money on something they really didn't have the money to spend on. 

I take far more issue with tool availability, discontinuing of tools, taking metric tools away and so forth with Festool, these are things they can control much more so than 1 tool failing more than normal.

The only point that matters is the armatures are failing and that’s what is important.

And again, no one knows the failure mode.  Armatures failing doesn't mean the armature is the problem/cause.  Festool certainly knows more about the situation than anyone here ever will.   In the end Festool very well has determine the issue to be the users/users electrical.  If that's the case it's pretty simple situation for them.

If you don't own a Kapex and have concern, don't buy one. If you own one and have had no issues, carry on. If you own one and are concerned it could fail, you keep it in mind and accept it could fail the next time you use it.  No reason to treat one saw any differently than everything else in life.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on February 01, 2019, 10:42 PM
Everyone knows the failure mode...the armature on an SCMS that costs 2 to 3 times the going market price goes POOF...up in smoke.  Festool apparently has had no success identifying the root cause of the failure or they know but they don't want to eat the expense of fixing it but they still happily take your money for a saw that may work...or it may not.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: awil66 on February 06, 2019, 06:58 PM
Mine failed for the second time on Monday. Low power, burning smell, intermittent starting, then nothing at all. Just over three years from the previous failure. Same MO. I took it apart to the field and armature, and apart from the smell I can’t see any obvious point of failure. Ordered new parts today.
One thing when looking on the ekat, the Canadian and US version diagrams differ in labeling and price for what is the armature. The US diagram calls it the lower field, part 201, and it is a few dollars more than the Canadian diagram which calls it the armature, part 1. Anyone know why this is?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on February 06, 2019, 07:03 PM
I would suggest that you call and talk to Festool service about your part order and make sure you are getting what would normally be included if a Kapex with similar symptoms were to be repaired by them.

Just a suggestion.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on February 06, 2019, 07:08 PM
Mine failed for the second time on Monday. Low power, burning smell, intermittent starting, then nothing at all. Just over three years from the previous failure.

Someone has just listed his Kapex for sale. As soon as he spotted the smell (the motor had not died yet), he immediately sent it to Festool for repair. The repair report seemed to suggest armature failure. So the smell was a telling sign.

Are you a Canadian or a US owner of the Kapex. I saw elsewhere that Canadian owners get five years of warranty on their Kapex.

By the way, you said low power. What was the setting on your saw (1-5 (or 6?)) when it died?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: awil66 on February 06, 2019, 08:54 PM
In the US. Always ran on 6
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Job and Knock on February 07, 2019, 05:06 PM
Vaguely remembering a similar circumstance happening a long time ago:
Ford’s Edsel (named it after one of the Ford sons).
So what you are saying is that I have a Festool Edsel?  [eek]

Just curious what is your SCMS of choice?
Kapex for accuracy, 216mm (8-1/2in) DW for "hack" work, because it'll handle the vast majority of what I do.

I actually do a lot of work for contractors who supply their own (hire company) saws - the big Bosch Glide is too ruddy big and heavy to be mobile and has terrible dust extraction (they also seem to get sloppy after a few years hard use), the 12in Milwaukee is another heavyweight monster, the Hitachi 12in double slide is probably the least accurate saw I've ever used, the big Makitas (LS1218 - we haven't seen the -19 here yet) is another saw which is short on accuracy and again is fairly big and has poor extraction while the DWS780 is probably a better (more accurate) saw to use than any of the others, with shadow line technology for the cut line which is simple and effective, but again it's big and heavy with poor dust extraction. If there weren't a Kapex, that would be my choice, especially as there is a Flexvolt derivative that can run off mains or battery. TBH the Kapex can do most of what those saws do, is easier to cart around site, it's more accurate and the lasers actually work. As to whether or not you think it's worth the money.... But I do admit that a little niggle in the back of my brain is always that motor
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 02, 2019, 01:46 PM
Over the years, I’ve owned and used professionally, many cross cut miter saws from various brands. There have been pros and cons with the majority of them but, generally they were all pretty good and all served me well for earning a living. I do look after my tools but, these saws were used in every sense of the word, no nursing or babying any of them, they were used in the manner they were designed for. None of them ever suffered motor issues though.

So reading some of the comments in this thread where owners have nursed, baby’d or held back in using the Kapex to it’s potential, is a bit worrying for me. Sure I understand as well as anybody else, that tools should be looked after and treated well in order to keep us earning or pursuing a hobby using them, especially expensive tools.
The expensive part makes it all the harder for me to understand, somebody having to nurse maid the saw when using it?

It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.

It’s a great shame that such an otherwise superb saw, has these motor issues, what’s a greater shame for me, is the way Festool seem keen to play it down, when obviously the problem still exists.

I do like investing in Festool but, for at least the foreseeable future, I’ll give the Kapex a wide berth.
I hope those of you that own one, and have no issues continue to do so. I also hope this issue becomes a distant memory.  ;)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 02, 2019, 01:50 PM
Well said!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 02, 2019, 02:45 PM

Snip.
It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.


If I were not already a Kapex owner and saw that deal (assuming the discount was at least 30% off), I would ask a few questions before walking away: Does the saw have its original motor? How long has it been on display? What is the warranty for the display model? And why the store is selling it?

If I was satisfied after reviewing the info. received and conditions (blade, etc.), I would get the showroom Kapex, at the time trying to push for a little more discount.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 02, 2019, 02:57 PM
If I was satisfied after reviewing the info. received, I would get the showroom Kapex trying to push for a 30% off or more the regular price.

If I remember correctly, around the September/October/November time frame, Festool recon was offering Kapex's for either 35% or 40% off. I was surprised at the time however they kept appearing every couple of days so I figured Festool just had a load of them to get rid of...thus the deep discount.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on March 02, 2019, 02:58 PM

Snip.
It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.


If I were not already a Kapex owner and saw that deal (assuming the discount was at least 25% off), I would ask a few questions before walking away: Does the saw have its original motor? How long has it been on display? What is the warranty for the display model? And why the store is selling it?

If I was satisfied after reviewing the info. received, I would get the showroom Kapex trying to push for a 30% off or more the regular price.

I suspect the reason they were selling it cheap is that the ex display Kapex would be the old model and the new model is out in the UK now.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 02, 2019, 04:17 PM
If I was satisfied after reviewing the info. received, I would get the showroom Kapex trying to push for a 30% off or more the regular price.

If I remember correctly, around the September/October/November time frame, Festool recon was offering Kapex's for either 35% or 40% off. I was surprised at the time however they kept appearing every couple of days so I figured Festool just had a load of them to get rid of...thus the deep discount.

Did recon include saws returned within 30 days of purchase? I suppose if someone used a saw for 3 weeks and returned it, it would not be resold as new.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 02, 2019, 05:07 PM
Did recon include saws returned within 30 days of purchase? I suppose if someone used a saw for 3 weeks and returned it, it would not be resold as new.

Yes

Correct, that’s probably what drives the quantities on the recon site. There have been times when the recon site is open for business for 20 minutes or more. Other times it’s only open for business for 20 seconds.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 02, 2019, 07:24 PM

Snip.
It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.


If I were not already a Kapex owner and saw that deal (assuming the discount was at least 30% off), I would ask a few questions before walking away: Does the saw have its original motor? How long has it been on display? What is the warranty for the display model? And why the store is selling it?

If I was satisfied after reviewing the info. received and conditions (blade, etc.), I would get the showroom Kapex, at the time trying to push for a little more discount.

It wasn’t quite 30% off but close, it looked in very good shape to be fair. There were other Festool ex display tools on offer too, mainly dust extractors and a couple of sanders.
The saw will no doubt be snapped up by somebody, and the chances are it will give years of service without issue. On the other hand.......................

I might have given it more consideration if I were needing a new saw but, I really don’t, and having spent nudging £3k on toys tools today, moving on was safer  ;)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 02, 2019, 08:52 PM
I wouldn't read into the recon site much. They had planex's (planexi?) half off during their big sale in november.  Recently they have popped up for a lot more money.  I would guess they have times they get a pile of tools and just want it cleared out so they drop the price, and a Kapex takes up a lot of space.

We know a new one is coming, it's not like they will want to have a pile of the old ones laying around.  Far as buying one, it's not like the new one will be cheap, so a used/discount/etc Kapex will be a good deal even with a chance of it failing.  As long as you can get the parts to repair one, it's not the end of the world.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 02, 2019, 09:10 PM
Over the years, I’ve owned and used professionally, many cross cut miter saws from various brands. There have been pros and cons with the majority of them but, generally they were all pretty good and all served me well for earning a living. I do look after my tools but, these saws were used in every sense of the word, no nursing or babying any of them, they were used in the manner they were designed for. None of them ever suffered motor issues though.

So reading some of the comments in this thread where owners have nursed, baby’d or held back in using the Kapex to it’s potential, is a bit worrying for me. Sure I understand as well as anybody else, that tools should be looked after and treated well in order to keep us earning or pursuing a hobby using them, especially expensive tools.
The expensive part makes it all the harder for me to understand, somebody having to nurse maid the saw when using it?

It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.

It’s a great shame that such an otherwise superb saw, has these motor issues, what’s a greater shame for me, is the way Festool seem keen to play it down, when obviously the problem still exists.

I do like investing in Festool but, for at least the foreseeable future, I’ll give the Kapex a wide berth.
I hope those of you that own one, and have no issues continue to do so. I also hope this issue becomes a distant memory.  ;)

Even outside of festool the price for stuff always causes weird dynamics. As you mention, when something cost a lot you take care off it, which can be considered ironic since the general idea of a "pro tool" is that they are durable and will hold up. So you get such tools being used less hard then the cheap tool.  We all do it, we have multiples of some tools because we see a particular job as too destructive or dirty for the nice tool.

The main issue with the Kapex is the unknown, if it's something the user did, something truly wrong with the tool that can happen to every Kapex made, or is it luck of the draw, one Kapex can handle anything, the next one dies easily.  Assuming the new Kapex won't have the issues, in a few years people will have new ones that don't die, and the old ones will be ones that are fine and won't die, or the way the user uses it means they won't break. The weak of the kapex herd will be dead, times will move on.  Clearly if the Kapex does have an fundamental issues, this is what Festool is relying on.

No matter what I'm not sure if I would use a Kapex the same as I would a dewalt, even without "the kapex issues",  I'd still see the Kapex as a finish carpentry saw and use it for "nice" tasks and use my Dewalt for abusive duty (rough construction). Same with other tools I have, I'm not going to use the Festools for everything, some jobs I'm going to use my old tools for.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: onevw on March 03, 2019, 06:54 AM


My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.

We have found out you must stay within these design limits of all our German heavy equipment never push these unit.

This is why we now only purchase CAT equipment and some Deer stuff. Our problem is heavy Cranes we do like this German units for this. We are very careful to use the correct trained crews and stay within these design limits.

Ma-bee festool needs a user training class on the saw like what is required with Krupp and other German heavy equipment makers.

A trained certified operated or units computers will not come alive.

I guess that's extreme!

Rick



Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 03, 2019, 07:29 AM
Over the years, I’ve owned and used professionally, many cross cut miter saws from various brands. There have been pros and cons with the majority of them but, generally they were all pretty good and all served me well for earning a living. I do look after my tools but, these saws were used in every sense of the word, no nursing or babying any of them, they were used in the manner they were designed for. None of them ever suffered motor issues though.

So reading some of the comments in this thread where owners have nursed, baby’d or held back in using the Kapex to it’s potential, is a bit worrying for me. Sure I understand as well as anybody else, that tools should be looked after and treated well in order to keep us earning or pursuing a hobby using them, especially expensive tools.
The expensive part makes it all the harder for me to understand, somebody having to nurse maid the saw when using it?

It’s a great shame, as only today, I saw a good deal on an ex display Kapex 120. I don’t currently need a new saw and had just spent a lot of money on a planer thicknesser. Even so, I was very tempted at the price, until I remembered some of the threads here. So, took one last look before moving on.

It’s a great shame that such an otherwise superb saw, has these motor issues, what’s a greater shame for me, is the way Festool seem keen to play it down, when obviously the problem still exists.

I do like investing in Festool but, for at least the foreseeable future, I’ll give the Kapex a wide berth.
I hope those of you that own one, and have no issues continue to do so. I also hope this issue becomes a distant memory.  ;)

Even outside of festool the price for stuff always causes weird dynamics. As you mention, when something cost a lot you take care off it, which can be considered ironic since the general idea of a "pro tool" is that they are durable and will hold up. So you get such tools being used less hard then the cheap tool.  We all do it, we have multiples of some tools because we see a particular job as too destructive or dirty for the nice tool.

The main issue with the Kapex is the unknown, if it's something the user did, something truly wrong with the tool that can happen to every Kapex made, or is it luck of the draw, one Kapex can handle anything, the next one dies easily.  Assuming the new Kapex won't have the issues, in a few years people will have new ones that don't die, and the old ones will be ones that are fine and won't die, or the way the user uses it means they won't break. The weak of the kapex herd will be dead, times will move on.  Clearly if the Kapex does have an fundamental issues, this is what Festool is relying on.

No matter what I'm not sure if I would use a Kapex the same as I would a dewalt, even without "the kapex issues",  I'd still see the Kapex as a finish carpentry saw and use it for "nice" tasks and use my Dewalt for abusive duty (rough construction). Same with other tools I have, I'm not going to use the Festools for everything, some jobs I'm going to use my old tools for.

I get what you’re saying regarding expensive tools but, I actually look after anything I buy regardless of cost. I think it stems from not having much when I was younger, and so learned the value and importance of taking good care of things. I can’t stand seeing anything mistreated, even other peoples stuff.

I’ve always bought what are considered by most as quality tools, so when buying a tool, it’s for the sole intention of that tool being used for any of the tasks it was designed for. I do, as you mentioned own multiples of many tools, simply because of the nature of my work, not because I think one would give a better finish to a job than the other.

My miter saws get chosen for a certain job by their size, not because one might produce a better cut than the other, I’d expect them all to give a first class cut providing the blade is correct and sharp.

A good few years ago, before I was a Festool fan, I arrived on a site and was greeted by a gang of Polish guys who were running the job. Their boss had just about every Festool tool ever made layed out and set up on the driveway.

As the job progressed, he was always pulling my leg about me not owning any Festool, and when he spotted a 27 year old Elu PS274 set up in the corner he was rolling around the room laughing! That’s an antique he said, quite possibly I replied but it still operates and cuts just fine.

I asked how much his Kapex set up cost, along with tables etc, £2,700 he replied.
After wincing, I asked him to cut a 45 degree cut in a door jamb architrave, no problem he said, and made the cut, and proudly offered me the timber to inspect. Very nice indeed I said, ok, now hold on a moment. Then I cut the head architrave to marry up to his, on the 27 year old Elu, then offered him the architrave. Not bad at all he said, it was actually the same quality cut as his, as he later admitted. I then offered the two cuts together, and put a square on them.

The corner was as good as you could ever expect from any saw, as he also agreed.
So, I said to him, your saw is £2,700 and that old Elu cost £225 27 years ago.
Why aren’t you still laughing?  ;)

If I bought a Kapex, it would be as usual, well looked after but, also well used and not shown any favouritism, my other saw don’t have special treatment neither would a Kapex.

There is obviously an issue with the Kapex, there’s been too many cases of them smoking. No smoke without fire, maybe that should be, no smoke without an issue?

What the issue is, doesn’t seem clear, possibly/hopefully Festool know, and are currently bringing out a new version that will definitely not have this issue risk?
The issue is real enough to put me off owning one, when the time comes that I need a new saw or saws, I’m hoping this problem will be done and dusted.

I love everything about the Kapex, apart from the doubt that this issue has instilled into me.
I love the Festool tools and equipment, so like a lot of other people, I wish they’d be a little more transparent about the Kapex problem, and give us assurance that it will be fixed.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 03, 2019, 11:29 AM


My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.


Rick

One of my suspicions is they didn't account for the variability in voltage around the world, that some folks can get some really poor power.  If they just looked at the general US spec that says 120V, with about plus minus 7V range, they may have messed up and not accounted for the reality that people can drop their voltages to near 100V pretty easily if depending on where they live or their service size, or service provider.  Of course Festool makes plenty of tools that work fine for the same people.  This is in part when people have been told "low voltage" by Festool, I have some skeptism.

All companies will use the "improper use"/"out of spec" claims.  Most just understand they need to build tools to handle way more than what they list on the spec sheet.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on March 04, 2019, 06:53 PM


My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.


Rick

One of my suspicions is they didn't account for the variability in voltage around the world, that some folks can get some really poor power.  If they just looked at the general US spec that says 120V, with about plus minus 7V range, they may have messed up and not accounted for the reality that people can drop their voltages to near 100V pretty easily if depending on where they live or their service size, or service provider.  Of course Festool makes plenty of tools that work fine for the same people.  This is in part when people have been told "low voltage" by Festool, I have some skeptism.

All companies will use the "improper use"/"out of spec" claims.  Most just understand they need to build tools to handle way more than what they list on the spec sheet.

Festool should just do a ground-up redesign for the North American market.  It would be worth it for such a pricey item.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 04, 2019, 07:20 PM
Snip.
Festool should just do a ground-up redesign for the North American market.
Only if they really know what the problem(s) are. Any redesign may not result in a better Kapex, unless the designers know what is wrong with the current generation of the Kapex. Of course, with no official info. shed on how big the problem is, what we have been seeing could just be a perceived problem. At least, that is what I hope it to be....
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on March 04, 2019, 07:48 PM
Snip.
Festool should just do a ground-up redesign for the North American market.
Only if they really know what the problem(s) are. Any redesign may not result in a better Kapex, unless the designers know what is wrong with the current generation of the Kapex. Of course, with no official info. shed on how big the problem is, what we have been seeing could just be a perceived problem. At least, that is what I hope it to be....

It's not just North America, here are a few recent listings from Ebay in the Uk that have a common theme.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FESTOOL-KAPEX-KS-120-EB-Slide-Mitre-Saw-110v-NO-RESERVE/173811329188?epid=1105118185&hash=item2877f668a4:g:mwgAAOSwBz1cc8KJ

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Festool-561399-KS88E-GB-110v-Kapex-Sliding-Compound-Mitre-Saw-260mm/283389638942?epid=1256840381&hash=item41fb56b91e:g:~TQAAOSwk25cbsYL

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/festool-kapex-120-sprare-and-repairs/223350908443?hash=item3400c0661b:g:qpsAAOSwS2lcUHgg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Festool-KS-120-EB-240V-Kapex-Sliding-Compound-Mitre-Saw-faulty/233028585604?epid=1105118185&hash=item3641960884:g:XFUAAOSwNphcAmmX

Mine is on it's third motor and other people from the UK have posted about the same problem on FOG.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on March 04, 2019, 08:29 PM
Any electrical equipment generates heat due to losses, both magnetic and resistive. These losses are due to the current flowing in the wiring. When you halve the supply voltage by rewinding the motor for 110v instead of the original design 230v you double the current flow.

This results in doubling both the magnetic and resistive heating losses. If the motor was critically designed for light weight on 230v the extra losses on 110v would result in the armature running much hotter, especially on startup.

Add to this the effect of multiple starts, as when doing light repetitive work, a supply that may be marginal and you get to release the magic smoke. The fan doesn't run long enough to move enough air to cool the motor.

This can't be fixed by a minor mod, it requires a total redesign of the motor and an admission that you got it wrong originally.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 04, 2019, 09:27 PM

This can't be fixed by a minor mod, it requires a total redesign of the motor and an admission that you got it wrong originally.

Couldn't they just use the same design or motor or class of motor that is used in other brands which don't seem to have a bad reputation with their motors?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 04, 2019, 09:55 PM
Only if they really know what the problem(s) are. Any redesign may not result in a better Kapex, unless the designers know what is wrong with the current generation of the Kapex.

Exactly Chuck. I’ve said this before but 4 years ago the local rep swore that Festool was aware of the smoking armature issue and they were working on it but they were unable to isolate the cause. Knowing the Germans (I have some German blood lines) they want to be absolutely positive that they have figured out the problem before they pounce. Unfortunately in this case, they may never be able to be absolutely positive.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on March 04, 2019, 10:10 PM

This can't be fixed by a minor mod, it requires a total redesign of the motor and an admission that you got it wrong originally.

Couldn't they just use the same design or motor or class of motor that is used in other brands which don't seem to have a bad reputation with their motors?

It would need a larger, heavier motor with more iron in it and bigger cooling paths so the whole frame would need to change, gear locations would be different and then it would become a new saw.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on March 04, 2019, 10:40 PM

This can't be fixed by a minor mod, it requires a total redesign of the motor and an admission that you got it wrong originally.

Couldn't they just use the same design or motor or class of motor that is used in other brands which don't seem to have a bad reputation with their motors?

It would need a larger, heavier motor with more iron in it and bigger cooling paths so the whole frame would need to change, gear locations would be different and then it would become a new saw.

With the sheer number of units failing, it only makes sense for them to finally make a North American version of their miter Saw.  Maybe have it made in the US.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 04, 2019, 11:20 PM
It would need a larger, heavier motor with more iron in it and bigger cooling paths so the whole frame would need to change, gear locations would be different and then it would become a new saw.

Which would make it heavier...maybe that’s the reason the competition is so heavy.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 05, 2019, 12:10 AM
Ditch the AC motor, go full DC and or proper permanent mag/induction motor,  now the motor system is the same globally, adjust for voltages differences on the input when you rectify wall power into DC. Everything downstream on the internal DC bus (IGBT, motor, etc) is now the same globally.  Basically adopt the same design as dual power tools that run on battery or wall.  Even better put the power adapter in a battery based module, now the bare tool is the same globally.

Still, they clearly know how to design tools, and have been fine on other tools like the routers.  As has been said many times in this thread.  They may or may not know what the problem is. It happens. Hopefully the issue will be something festool figured out, but was just not possible to fix via parts swaps, or at a reasonable price.  The problem will be if they never were able to understand it and it carries over to the new one. But I'd be pretty sure Festool has tried everything on the new models in testing.  Run it from 90V to 140V,  40hz to 80hz, run it off some brutal inverter making ugly wave forms.  Make sure it runs no matter what.

As others mentioned, there are motors out there that take a beating, but when you start adding weight to a tool that it trying to be much lighter than the competition, now you have to find the balance.  If the saw gains 10lbs, folks won't be happy.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on March 05, 2019, 02:25 AM
Ditch the AC motor, go full DC and or proper permanent mag/induction motor,  now the motor system is the same globally, adjust for voltages differences on the input when you rectify wall power into DC. Everything downstream on the internal DC bus (IGBT, motor, etc) is now the same globally.  Basically adopt the same design as dual power tools that run on battery or wall.  Even better put the power adapter in a battery based module, now the bare tool is the same globally.

Still, they clearly know how to design tools, and have been fine on other tools like the routers.  As has been said many times in this thread.  They may or may not know what the problem is. It happens. Hopefully the issue will be something festool figured out, but was just not possible to fix via parts swaps, or at a reasonable price.  The problem will be if they never were able to understand it and it carries over to the new one. But I'd be pretty sure Festool has tried everything on the new models in testing.  Run it from 90V to 140V,  40hz to 80hz, run it off some brutal inverter making ugly wave forms.  Make sure it runs no matter what.

As others mentioned, there are motors out there that take a beating, but when you start adding weight to a tool that it trying to be much lighter than the competition, now you have to find the balance.  If the saw gains 10lbs, folks won't be happy.

As long as it stays under 40 lbs, who cares.  Some people over think things too much.  Festool needs to deliver an accurate product that’s reliable. 

If making it 10 lbs lighter means you’ll have smoke coming out the back in 3-years, add the extra 10 lbs.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DashZero on March 05, 2019, 04:28 AM
In the mid 1980s a friend of mine had a German car made special at the factory and delivered to him here in the southern USA.  The air conditioner worked poorly for the climate here.  My friend wrote a letter to the factory explaining the issue, asking if there it was a problem they could fix.  He received a letter back from an engineer at the factory.  That letter said “The air conditioner is working exactly as it was designed and produced.”  We laugh about that now, but it wasn’t funny then.  German auto manufactures eventually learned to test their air conditioners in numerous climates in the USA where they were selling vehicles more and more.

I myself want a Kapex and have been waiting to see what the issue is before buying one.



My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.

We have found out you must stay within these design limits of all our German heavy equipment never push these unit.

This is why we now only purchase CAT equipment and some Deer stuff. Our problem is heavy Cranes we do like this German units for this. We are very careful to use the correct trained crews and stay within these design limits.

Ma-bee festool needs a user training class on the saw like what is required with Krupp and other German heavy equipment makers.

A trained certified operated or units computers will not come alive.

I guess that's extreme!

Rick
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on March 05, 2019, 08:18 AM
A manufacturer who knows that there is a serious operational problem with its product and who leaves that problem unaddressed for years, either through indifference or incompetence while continuing to sell that product is engaged in consumer fraud.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Svar on March 05, 2019, 10:47 AM
It would need a larger, heavier motor with more iron in it and bigger cooling paths so the whole frame would need to change, gear locations would be different and then it would become a new saw.
Which would make it heavier...maybe that’s the reason the competition is so heavy.
Heavier? Perhaps, by couple ounces. Let's not blow this out of proportions. What's the weight difference between 120V and 240V TS55 or Domino? Same short burst on/off work regime yet those 120V tools hold up just fine having identical motor housings and fans as 240V models.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Steven Owen on March 05, 2019, 02:00 PM
It would need a larger, heavier motor with more iron in it and bigger cooling paths so the whole frame would need to change, gear locations would be different and then it would become a new saw.
Which would make it heavier...maybe that’s the reason the competition is so heavy.
Heavier? Perhaps, by couple ounces. Let's not blow this out of proportions. What's the weight difference between 120V and 240V TS55 or Domino? Same short burst on/off work regime yet those 120V tools hold up just fine having identical motor housings and fans as 240V models.

The competition has actually dropped weight in recent years.  Dewalt Miter saws used to be 52 lbs now their 37.5 lbs.  Makita and Bosch lost weight; so have the Milwaukee miter saws.  No one is as light as Festool, but most miter saw brands have shed some pounds over the years.  I’m puzzled at what some people are complaining about. 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 05, 2019, 02:21 PM
I’m puzzled at what some people are complaining about.

Weight...of the miter saw

Balance...of the miter saw

Real estate...of the miter saw

Age...of the designated lackey.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 05, 2019, 06:36 PM
Any electrical equipment generates heat due to losses, both magnetic and resistive. These losses are due to the current flowing in the wiring. When you halve the supply voltage by rewinding the motor for 110v instead of the original design 230v you double the current flow.

This results in doubling both the magnetic and resistive heating losses. If the motor was critically designed for light weight on 230v the extra losses on 110v would result in the armature running much hotter, especially on startup.

Add to this the effect of multiple starts, as when doing light repetitive work, a supply that may be marginal and you get to release the magic smoke. The fan doesn't run long enough to move enough air to cool the motor.

This can't be fixed by a minor mod, it requires a total redesign of the motor and an admission that you got it wrong originally.

I think you’re on to something there, the 110/120 volt tools have more demand on them, and give less performance than 240 volt tools. This could well be where the problem lies?

I am mainly a 110 volt, and cordless user, and I notice straight away, If I try a 240volt equivalent of one of my 110 tools, how much more powerful they seem, and how much faster a saw blade etc spins.

I use mainly 110 volt tools as many years ago, 240 volt weren’t allowed on sites from a safety aspect. Some sites still won’t allow 240, and if they do, usually an RCD breaker is also required.
A long time ago, I sadly saw a young chap get electrocuted, who was using a 240 volt drill, in the wet with a damaged power cord. That alone convinced me 110 volt was a good choice.

I am having a re think now though, as much of the Festool kit I buy, will be used in the workshop, so I am seriously considering the 240 volt range.

For site work, I will continue with 110 and cordless but, I feel I need to make the jump to 240. I’ve heard a few times that many manufacturers may phase out 110 volt? I get the feeling Festool would be happier just making 240 stuff?

I know of around five or six UK Kapex’s taking a dive and/or smoking, and I’m almost certain they were all 110 volt versions?

My thoughts about the weight are, sure it’s nice to have performance with less weight but, and it’s big but with me, if a heavier saw guarantees no smoking issues, I’ll take that every time.
The quick stop start theories mentioned in this thread make sense too, as I know at least two of the failures I know of, were very quick stop start scenarios, possibly as also mentioned not giving the motor sufficient cooling time.

If this is the case, I’d imaging the 110/120 volt saws are the higher risk, because of the demand on the motors.
I really do hope the new version puts this issue to bed, because it seems to have become a thawn in Festool’s side.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on March 06, 2019, 02:16 AM
an RCD breaker is also required.
That's basically the only thing needed, regardless of 110, 240 or 380V.

The only two things that keep the 110V regulation in place is 'we always did it' and the fear (or should we say expectation) that idiots will bridge an RCD that trips repeatedly (instead of locating and removing the cause) and through this kill others.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 06, 2019, 09:28 AM


I use mainly 110 volt tools as many years ago, 240 volt weren’t allowed on sites from a safety aspect. Some sites still won’t allow 240, and if they do, usually an RCD breaker is also required.
A long time ago, I sadly saw a young chap get electrocuted, who was using a 240 volt drill, in the wet with a damaged power cord. That alone convinced me 110 volt was a good choice.


Had to look up RCD to see RCD=GFCI.   Brit to American conversion.

Are you implying all your outdoor and wet location outlets aren't GFCI/RCD as is?  All outlets for outside, basement (damp place), bathrooms, kitchens have been required to have groundfault protection for decades.

If you use corded 110V in wet, you are still trying to die, being 110 vs 240 in the situation you described wouldn't have changed things, the conditions still closed the circuit thru the person.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 06, 2019, 03:39 PM
an RCD breaker is also required.
That's basically the only thing needed, regardless of 110, 240 or 380V.

The only two things that keep the 110V regulation in place is 'we always did it' and the fear (or should we say expectation) that idiots will bridge an RCD that trips repeatedly (instead of locating and removing the cause) and through this kill others.

Some sites go the whole hog, hard hats, hi viz clothing, ear defenders, dust masks steel capped and still lined sole work boots, gloves and 110 only. Other sites are way more relaxed to point of being dangerous.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 06, 2019, 03:48 PM


I use mainly 110 volt tools as many years ago, 240 volt weren’t allowed on sites from a safety aspect. Some sites still won’t allow 240, and if they do, usually an RCD breaker is also required.
A long time ago, I sadly saw a young chap get electrocuted, who was using a 240 volt drill, in the wet with a damaged power cord. That alone convinced me 110 volt was a good choice.


Had to look up RCD to see RCD=GFCI.   Brit to American conversion.

Are you implying all your outdoor and wet location outlets aren't GFCI/RCD as is?  All outlets for outside, basement (damp place), bathrooms, kitchens have been required to have groundfault protection for decades.

If you use corded 110V in wet, you are still trying to die, being 110 vs 240 in the situation you described wouldn't have changed things, the conditions still closed the circuit thru the person.

Hi, as I mentioned in my other post, some sites are geared around health and safety, others are about as far removed as you could get.
110 and 240 volt extension leads, some with insulation tape repairs, going accross wet muddy sites. Extortionate noise levels, people grinding or cutting slabs, bricks and pavers without masks, and subjecting everybody else to their hazzards. I witnessed it today, and often do regularly.
I explained the danger of silica dust to a labourer last week, he looked at me like I was a Martian?

Breakers and trip systems are the least of the worries on some sites.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 06, 2019, 10:31 PM

Hi, as I mentioned in my other post, some sites are geared around health and safety, others are about as far removed as you could get.
110 and 240 volt extension leads, some with insulation tape repairs, going accross wet muddy sites. Extortionate noise levels, people grinding or cutting slabs, bricks and pavers without masks, and subjecting everybody else to their hazzards. I witnessed it today, and often do regularly.
I explained the danger of silica dust to a labourer last week, he looked at me like I was a Martian?

Breakers and trip systems are the least of the worries on some sites.

Was trying to understand why they would need to "bring an RCD" as I'm use to anything you would plug into would all ready have GFCI.  From limited reading it looks like the UK approached things differently than north America.  We GFCI protect by the circuit, and we focus on separating circuits. It looks like the UK at least attempted full blown GFCI the entire panel, and now has some large GFCI circuits.  We either use a receptacle device somewhere in the circuit, or we do it at the panel with a GFCI breaker for each circuit that gets GFCI protection.  Things like a bathroom is by code it's own circuit (not shared), same for things like kitchen counter outlets.  Now we have Arc Fault protection too, so basically all 110V circuits get arc fault protection, thus some get Arc Fault and GFCI protection, again handled by a breaker for that circuit.  Any place someone is plugging a tool into outside is GFCI, they can't bypass it unless they run the cord thru a window inside to a non-GFCI outlet, which really only exist in limited areas as basement, garage, shed  outlets are suppose to be GFCI too.  I think all portable generators are GFCI
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 07, 2019, 04:08 AM

Hi, as I mentioned in my other post, some sites are geared around health and safety, others are about as far removed as you could get.
110 and 240 volt extension leads, some with insulation tape repairs, going accross wet muddy sites. Extortionate noise levels, people grinding or cutting slabs, bricks and pavers without masks, and subjecting everybody else to their hazzards. I witnessed it today, and often do regularly.
I explained the danger of silica dust to a labourer last week, he looked at me like I was a Martian?

Breakers and trip systems are the least of the worries on some sites.

Was trying to understand why they would need to "bring an RCD" as I'm use to anything you would plug into would all ready have GFCI.  From limited reading it looks like the UK approached things differently than north America.  We GFCI protect by the circuit, and we focus on separating circuits. It looks like the UK at least attempted full blown GFCI the entire panel, and now has some large GFCI circuits.  We either use a receptacle device somewhere in the circuit, or we do it at the panel with a GFCI breaker for each circuit that gets GFCI protection.  Things like a bathroom is by code it's own circuit (not shared), same for things like kitchen counter outlets.  Now we have Arc Fault protection too, so basically all 110V circuits get arc fault protection, thus some get Arc Fault and GFCI protection, again handled by a breaker for that circuit.  Any place someone is plugging a tool into outside is GFCI, they can't bypass it unless they run the cord thru a window inside to a non-GFCI outlet, which really only exist in limited areas as basement, garage, shed  outlets are suppose to be GFCI too.  I think all portable generators are GFCI

Yes I see what you’re saying, electrics isn’t one of my strong points so you’ll have to bear with me.
In the UK, domestic properties are all fitted with a trip system, that cuts the power in the event of a fault, so a breaker will flip and kill the power to that circuit. This is located on the fuse board at the consumer unit. So a reset is a flick of a switch. Even if an earth wire is shorted the breaker will trip.
However there are still a lot of old wiring systems active (as far as I know) that have no breakers built in.

I believe offices etc are the same.
With building sites, often the main contractor will have basic power and facilities run, to get them up and running, it’s not unusual to see a cupboard with a few 240 volt sockets screwed to a plywood board, to provide power for trades, and often there will be large 110 volt transformers running off these sockets for the use of 110 volt tools.

Strangely in this day and age, where health and safety is pushed in our faces at every opportunity, there seem to be varied examples of what’s acceptable on a site.
I have found on the bigger sites, they seem very strict, and somewhere else, where say a local builder might be building 2 or 3 houses on a plot things are a lot more relaxed.

I was on a large site a few weeks ago in central London, and everybody was using 110 volt tools or cordless, and any 240 volt chargers were only to be used in the site office, I have 110 volt chargers so not a problem for me.
However, a guy turned up to coat all the steel work with a fire retardent coating, and his equipment was all 240 volt. The site agent at first refused to let him work but, as he was apparently a hired in specialist, after a few phone calls, he was told he could use 240 volt tools, after they’d been checked, and he must use RCD breakers. I have seen this scenario many times.

I have friends in the trade that only use 240 volt tools and tell me they never have issues on site?
I have also never had my dust extractors checked, M rated is the accepted level on main sites here but, mine have never been checked?
Lots of variables and grey areas it seems?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 07, 2019, 09:35 AM
Guess I would just assume any transformers would be a one stop shop kind of deal,  they do the 110V, have RCD, and an approval from your government body and are required to be approved.  Thus when you buy one, you are automatically good to go.   

When things get built here there is often a temporary drop from the pole that is used during construction, I would think either the utility setting that up would just set it up job compliant, or the contractor running the site would have their setup they use on every job and just have the utility connect to that till the job is done.

I know what you mean by folks ignoring safety stuff, but if it's been the rules for a long time I would expect every contractor just has their kit/system down for this when setting up the next build site.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 07, 2019, 10:40 AM
Guess I would just assume any transformers would be a one stop shop kind of deal,  they do the 110V, have RCD, and an approval from your government body and are required to be approved.  Thus when you buy one, you are automatically good to go.   

When things get built here there is often a temporary drop from the pole that is used during construction, I would think either the utility setting that up would just set it up job compliant, or the contractor running the site would have their setup they use on every job and just have the utility connect to that till the job is done.

I know what you mean by folks ignoring safety stuff, but if it's been the rules for a long time I would expect every contractor just has their kit/system down for this when setting up the next build site.

To be honest, being a 110 volt user I get pretty much left alone, it’s another reason I still use that platform, as it seems to keep the powers that be happy.
Very rarely I have had to have my tools PAT tested before being allowed to work on site, often also having an induction course. This has been very rare for me though.

I think in future though, when buying tools for the workshop, I’ll go 240 volt, my bigger machinery, is 240 volt, so I suppose it makes sense.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 07, 2019, 11:16 PM


I think in future though, when buying tools for the workshop, I’ll go 240 volt, my bigger machinery, is 240 volt, so I suppose it makes sense.

Nah, mix it up and go gas powered tools. In this electric age you can feel all retro pull starting your 2 stroke saw. Or go all out and go steam power with belt drives.  No one expects someone to stoke the boiler with coal in the morning on a jobsite. Other workers can come over, brew up some coffee on the boiler and see they can get some belt time later in the day to drive their planner.  No more electrical safety concern.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 08, 2019, 12:36 PM
Nah, mix it up and go gas powered tools. In this electric age you can feel all retro pull starting your 2 stroke saw. Or go all out and go steam power with belt drives.  No one expects someone to stoke the boiler with coal in the morning on a jobsite. Other workers can come over, brew up some coffee on the boiler and see they can get some belt time later in the day to drive their planner.  No more electrical safety concern.

 [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] I like it it!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: JimH2 on March 08, 2019, 04:27 PM


My Take on this
The problem is not that hard to sort out. This is simple off the shelf engineering not a new concept.

My experience with German engineering showed me the design is always just up too the specifications never over. They always design to the specs with no tolerance for customers pushing the envelope or improper use.

Other manufactures will always over design and dumb down the specs and just assume customers will be pushing the design envelop and customer misuse.


Rick

One of my suspicions is they didn't account for the variability in voltage around the world, that some folks can get some really poor power.  If they just looked at the general US spec that says 120V, with about plus minus 7V range, they may have messed up and not accounted for the reality that people can drop their voltages to near 100V pretty easily if depending on where they live or their service size, or service provider.  Of course Festool makes plenty of tools that work fine for the same people.  This is in part when people have been told "low voltage" by Festool, I have some skeptism.

All companies will use the "improper use"/"out of spec" claims.  Most just understand they need to build tools to handle way more than what they list on the spec sheet.

They use universal motors (as do the vast majority of hand held power tools). The allowance for fluctuations in voltage is built in.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 09, 2019, 11:02 PM


They use universal motors (as do the vast majority of hand held power tools). The allowance for fluctuations in voltage is built in.

Where it gets tricky is their speed control. So it's not a completely simple setup.   Part of my comment is due to folks saying they were told by Festool that the issue was low voltage.  Now you can't say that based on looking at the tool, you have to be there measuring when it happens. But if it looks like something drew too many amps, it would be a reasonable suspicion. If Festool's answer is the supply voltage was too low, then it would mean they have a design issue based on voltage which means they didn't cover the Voltage range in the design that they needed to.

Like I said, I'm skeptical of the "low voltage" statement by Festool, but if it is part of the issue then it would in general mean they didn't design to handle it.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on March 09, 2019, 11:09 PM
Or could it be that they mean 110v tool when thay say "low voltage" as distinct from 230v.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 10, 2019, 07:52 AM
I was on a site last Friday, and there was a flooring company putting down 19mm Solid oak T&G.
I noticed two Kapex saws set up and an array of Festool kit. At tea break, I got talking with the boss of the company, and I asked him about his experience with the Kapex.
He told me the company had bought four of the 120’s at various dates but they were all 110 volt.
He said two of the saws had never missed a beat, where as one of the others was on it’s second replacement motor, and the other saw was on replacement number three!

He said nearly every time one failed, there was a slight burning smell, a plume of smoke and that was it. He said it all seemed random, sometimes it would happen halfway through the day, and one went early one morning after just two cuts.
He said that sometimes the switches were replaced as well as the motors when repaired.

I asked him if he’d buy any more, and he said yes he would, as apart from the issue, and inconvenience, they’re a great saw, and in his opinion the best.
Bearing in mind, that all of his were repaired under warranty, not sure how he’d feel if he’d have paid for the repairs?
He questioned Festool, asking why so many failures, and apparently they told him they sell so many of the saws, and so a percentage will possibly have issues?
He was a die hard Festool fan though, and to be fair, said all of his other vast collection of Festool had never let him down.

I think he said he’s a member here, so may well comment about his experiences, if he hasn’t already.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jaybolishes on March 10, 2019, 08:54 AM
Jiggy that is an embarrassing story for festool.  Kinda puts all this baloney “we don’t know the actual number of failures” to rest. Absolutely ridiculous this has gone on for so long and all you hear from the company crickets. Smh
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 10, 2019, 09:59 AM
Jiggy that is an embarrassing story for festool.  Kinda puts all this baloney “we don’t know the actual number of failures” to rest. Absolutely ridiculous this has gone on for so long and all you hear from the company crickets. Smh

Yes it is indeed embarrassing, I was actually thinking as much when the chap was telling me. I was also trying to hide my surprise at him telling me he’d still buy them again?

My own thoughts were, although this company provided other services than flooring, the Kapex’s they were using, were dedicated to their flooring division. Again just my opinion but, I would say a Kapex 120 is overkill cutting floor boards and finishing trims, as opposed to somebody using one for first fixing or roof joists etc?
So, I cannot imagine these saws were over worked, and seeing how these people operated, definitely not abused in any way.
Even one of my cordless miter saws would have easily coped with the work they were doing.

Great shame as I said before, not so much because the issue is actually there, more of a shame at how long it’s gone on, and with no concrete reason of why it happens.
I would expect Festool to have fixed the issue very quickly, and made customers and potential customers, feel as though they shouldn’t be having doubts or losing confidence.

I had a similar experience with Fein, until they started being more truthfull. This isn’t a dig at Festool, as they have been handed a lot of my hard earned, just like the rest of you, and that will no doubt continue, and I’m often amazed at their ideas and pioneering but, surely the mighty Festool can put this issue to bed, and confirm so?

If I buy a tool from any maker, and itis not right, I normally ask for a replacement as I like to give the benefit of the doubt. However if the replacement is also not right, then I get a refund and move on.
So, this is how I view the Kapex, I initially went to buy one a long time ago after seeing them on site. When I heard of the issues the doubt set in, and we all know what doubt can do.
Then I researched a bit more, and decided that there is obviously a real issue with some of saws, enough for me not to buy one until Festool state that the problem is fixed once and for all.

There are no doubt many very happy owners, that probably can’t understand what the fuss is all about, until their saw starts smoking.  [scared]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 10, 2019, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the post Jiggy...that's not good for Festool. [sad]

One of Festools explanations in the past is that they have no control over what the saws are used for, how the operators use/treat the saws and what type of power they receive. All of which I can fully agree with.

However, this little episode reads rather like a controlled experiment of sorts in that saw usage was standardized, operator usage was standardized and the power supplied was standardized. I'm not saying that everything was absolutely equal but certainly more equal than evaluating the results from Tom's Trim Shop vs Dan's Deck Repair.

So the scary thing here is there were winners and losers in this experiment with no apparent consistent reason for failure. This is not good for Kapex owners and not good for Festool. [crying] [crying]

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: harry_ on March 10, 2019, 11:25 AM
JimH2:
You may be right. But... I wonder...
How many faithful current Festool buyer/owners of a variety of their products -
Read this long, ongoing lament about Kapex problems/failures -
And would REALLY like to buy one... But, just won’t take the risk.
I’m one of them.

These Kapex problems/failures -
May, or may not be, a small number of all the Kapex sold.
But, in the business of marketing - And ultimately, the selling products -
PERCEPTION IS (BECOMES) REALITY.

Being a member of The Fog for decade before I purchased my first and I have since purchased a second (via recon).

For me it was never about the reliability holding off the purchase, it was the cost.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on March 10, 2019, 02:42 PM
One can understand a cheap tool being less than perfectly reliable, but a tool costing 3 or 4 times typical that's also fragile?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 10, 2019, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the post Jiggy...that's not good for Festool. [sad]

One of Festools explanations in the past is that they have no control over what the saws are used for, how the operators use/treat the saws and what type of power they receive. All of which I can fully agree with.

However, this little episode reads rather like a controlled experiment of sorts in that saw usage was standardized, operator usage was standardized and the power supplied was standardized. I'm not saying that everything was absolutely equal but certainly more equal than evaluating the results from Tom's Trim Shop vs Dan's Deck Repair.

So the scary thing here is there were winners and losers in this experiment with no apparent consistent reason for failure. This is not good for Kapex owners and not good for Festool. [crying] [crying]

And this gets to the heart of the problem. Take what this company has seen with their 4 saws and then trying to be Festool studying it.  It leans the direction of the problem away from it being the motor.  As I mentioned a while back in this thread, the armature burning up doesn't mean it is an issue of the armature, it can be the victim of some other part.  The saws that go thru motors probably have a part that is causing the motors to burn. But when inspecting saws, the killer part probably shows no sign of being wrong.  Even then though, if there is a killer in the tool, it only has the urge to kill rarely.  So even if all 4 where sent in for study, how long, if ever would it take for Festool to witness a murder. And would they have it instrumented up in a way to detect what went wrong.  If it's some highly intermittent glitch in a chip on a control board, good luck ever tracking it down. At some point you'd almost have to replace every part that is different from the 230 to 110V models to either a different vendor or PN, make these boards or what ever in batches, and ship them out in tools and wait to see what ones come in for failures.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 10, 2019, 07:23 PM
I always thought at the back of my mind, that the issue was with a faulty batch of motors, from what I’ve read here and heard from users etc, I’m starting to think that it may be something else causing the issue.

Also, trying to be fair to Festool, the thing about them telling somebody, that they can’t be held accountable for how the saw is used by an individual, and power sources and fluctuations etc, does carry some merit. However, I don’t know about anybody else but, I don’t hear of other makes of miter saw having motor issues, and smoking etc?
So surely that alone should alert Festool that the problem is real?

I have new and old miter saws, various makes, and some are 30+ years old, and the only replacement parts they had, are brushes and blades, and these saws were used daily for years.
Does anybody know if the Kapex motor is used in any other application, even non Festool? If so, I wonder how it fairs?

Perhaps Festool really don’t know why some of these saws let go, as otherwise surely they would eliminate the problem?

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on March 10, 2019, 07:57 PM
When I go to tool shows I always ask the Festool representatives about the Kapex motor problems and the answers I have had are....

 "There is no problem"

 "There was a problem with a few early models"

 "Think there was a batch of bad parts"

 "We have had some problems but it has been sorted out"

Would be nice to get official answer.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on March 10, 2019, 08:02 PM
Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 10, 2019, 09:23 PM
Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.

Or to put it in another way, 7 armatures in 4 saws isn’t exactly a marginal problem.

I kind of harken back to DeformedTree’s analogy of a “killer part” somewhere in the mix.

Why do some saws have absolutely no issue while others are on their 3rd armature? What’s the likelihood that 2 faulty armatures were pulled off the shelf years apart from each other and then installed and consequently failed ?

Aligning with the current popular conspiracy theory subscribers  [sad] [sad] there’s a ticking time bomb inside certain Kapex’s.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 10, 2019, 09:23 PM
When I go to tool shows I always ask the Festool representatives about the Kapex motor problems and the answers I have had are....

 "There is no problem"

 "There was a problem with a few early models"

 "Think there was a batch of bad parts"

 "We have had some problems but it has been sorted out"

Would be nice to get official answer.

Well, they have to dance around the issue. Those folks you're talking to probably have no idea and can only do official deflections. If they did known something and spoke out of turn, they risk being fired as everyone knows what ever they say will be posted online in a hurry.  In general I wouldn't go trying to put someone in their position on the spot. It's not like the correct/official/one true answer is just going to be magically produced right then and there.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Gregor on March 11, 2019, 05:11 AM
Windings (both rotor and strator) of a well designed motor normally shouldn't burn up as long is it isn't blocked (thus only one winding is energized constantly and no airflow from the fan to cool it), so failing electronics used for RPM control shouldn't be a possible source of problems.

I suggest to watch 21:09 to 21:56 of the AvE TS 55 youtube video (that isn't allowed to be linked here for some reason) where he talks about the strator winding and would like to ask everyone who does/did self-repair on a Kapex with motor failure to compare said part of that video to the the fault they located in their machine - and possibly, if so kind, to enlighten the rest of us (who don't have a dead one to look outselves) if there is a connection between the two.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 11, 2019, 11:56 AM
Two failures in a sample of four gently used saws isn't exactly a marginal problem.

Or to put it in another way, 7 armatures in 4 saws isn’t exactly a marginal problem.

I kind of harken back to DeformedTree’s analogy of a “killer part” somewhere in the mix.

Why do some saws have absolutely no issue while others are on their 3rd armature? What’s the likelihood that 2 faulty armatures were pulled off the shelf years apart from each other and then installed and consequently failed ?

Aligning with the current popular conspiracy theory subscribers  [sad] [sad] there’s a ticking time bomb inside certain Kapex’s.

That’s currently my sort of thinking too Cheese.

As for the “problem, what problem?” that some have had said to them by Festool. It reminds me of a story I’ve heard a few times regarding Rolls Royce.
Some time in the 70’s a chap in England apparently took delivery of a brand new Rolls.
A few weeks later, the owner decided to tour parts of Europe in the new Rolls.
After just a few weeks, the car apparently developed overheating issues, and then an engine rattle.
The owner was said to have spoken to his dealer, who asked for his location. A few days later, a courtesy Rolls arrived at the hotel he was staying in. Also a mobile workshop arrived, in the form of a large box lorry/truck.

The problem car was loaded into the mobile workshop, and emerged two days later, running as sweet as a Rolls Royce could be.
The owner was given a lengthy apology, and some champagne. When he asked what the problem was, the technician explained the car had a minor fault that had now been corrected.
So the owner asks why it took two days to fix? He was told that after the repair, they wanted to thoroughly check the car over, before handing it back over.

Apparently, it transpired afew months later, that a complete new engine had been fitted into the car. I don’t know how true this story is but, I’ve been told it a few times.

It reminds me of Festool’s attitude over the Kapex, instead of admitting there’s an issue, and risking the rep of such a respected company, they just make the issue go away (for now) and play it down as a minor niggle?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DashZero on March 11, 2019, 01:57 PM
Rolls Rouce.  In 1976 my father purchased a New Rolls Royce Silver Shadow. It had two problems that lasted all the way until 1994 when it was traded to an owner of another car dealership.

The first problem was the car would always drain the battery or randomly refuse to start.  The car was kept permanently on a battery tender and I finally purschased a “Sears Die Hard Gold” battery.  The battery was guaranteed for as long as you owned the car.  This was in the mid 1980s.  Every month I would bring the dead battery to Sears and they would give me a new battery. This problem never was fixed by Rolls Royce or any of the other people that looked at the problem over the years.

The second problem was related to many things being hydraulic on the car.  It was surmised that during one of the first services the mechanic put the wrong fluid in and some seals deteriated.  It leaked hydraulic fluid the entire time we had the vehicle, in different spots and finally mostly in one area but we never could track down where.

Initially app service was done by the Dealership the first year. Then the dealership never sold anymore Rolls Royce’s and the stopped selling them. We had to resort to independent mechanics.  The factory ones never could find the problem anyway.

This car was a left hand drive US model.  The owner of the dealership the car was finally traded in to in 1994 had a right drive of the same year and wanted a left hand drive.  Within two weeks of them having the car, it was shipped to one of their homes across the country, their mechanic fixed the hydraulic fluid leak.  There was a completely undocumented hidden seal between the firewall and some other part.  No one at the factory had every seen or knew of it, outside the original person that built that part.  Except this mechanic.  Apparently unless you had put the wrong fluid and deteriorate that seal, as well as others that had been replaced, you never would have had the leak and known to completely disassemble that area of the car just to get to the one seal causing the problem.

The first service before the leaking seal, my father got the bill.  On it it said “Adjust pneumatic cylinders, Quantity 4, price each $75, total $300

My father being a car guy had never heard of a pneumatic cylinder, and went and asked the service department to explain the charge.  At that time the Factory Mechanic from England was still here in the USA training the dealership. He walked outside and said “There sir” as he pointed.  My father was confused and didn’t see him pointed at any thing specific.  He asked the mechanic once again to show him exactly what was done.  The mechanic replied “Surely you jest?” In a tone that angered my father as he realized the charges were $75 each to put air into the tires.  My father replied “not for $75 each and that is unacceptable”. My father refused to pay that part of the bill, even after they told him if you can afford this car you can afford the price to air the tires.  My father explained he could afford the car because he didn’t go around letting people charge him such a ridiculous price for airing up tires. After that it became my job as a kid to wash the car by hand and always air up the tires.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 11, 2019, 04:44 PM
DashZero, That’s an interesting story, thank you for sharing.

It just might explain why sometimes over the years, when working at the homes of wealthy people, I have seen Rolls Royces in the garage with the battery on trickle charge. We’ve joked that even a Roller can have a flat battery, perhaps it was a characteristic of certain models?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DashZero on March 11, 2019, 05:10 PM
The Lucas Opus electrical ignition was the biggest weak spot and known to be problematic.  The Air conditioner however was well known to be one the best ever put into any car. Here in the south USA it would blow so cold that it could be 90% humidity and 90’F outside and you still be very cold in side the car.

It had a nifty Quadrophonic 8-track tape sound system. That was 4 channel for the automobile.  It had a really cool demo 8-track quadraphonic that had recorded a jet plane taking off in 4 channel sound.  It would roar from the rear speakers as the plane flew overhead and transfer to the front.

DashZero, That’s an interesting story, thank you for sharing.

It just might explain why sometimes over the years, when working at the homes of wealthy people, I have seen Rolls Royces in the garage with the battery on trickle charge. We’ve joked that even a Roller can have a flat battery, perhaps it was a characteristic of certain models?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 11, 2019, 05:23 PM
The Lucas Opus electrical ignition was the biggest weak spot and known to be problematic.

As they say in British motorcycle circles, "Joseph Lucas...Prince of Darkness."
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 11, 2019, 08:35 PM
The Lucas Opus electrical ignition was the biggest weak spot and known to be problematic.

As they say in British motorcycle circles, "Joseph Lucas...Prince of Darkness."

(http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/images/Smokekit2.jpg)

You just need to recharge the system with new OEM Lucas smoke.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 11, 2019, 08:55 PM

(http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/images/Smokekit2.jpg)

You just need to recharge the system with new OEM Lucas smoke.

Now that’s funny...

Hmmm, wonder if Festool will release their own version of Armature Smoke?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 12, 2019, 04:02 AM
The Lucas Opus electrical ignition was the biggest weak spot and known to be problematic.

As they say in British motorcycle circles, "Joseph Lucas...Prince of Darkness."

(http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/images/Smokekit2.jpg)

You just need to recharge the system with new OEM Lucas smoke.

 [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 15, 2019, 07:44 PM
On a more positive note, this morning on a commercial job, I saw an old pal (carpenter) that I’ve not seen for many years, he was building a large cut roof.
He and his mate had a couple of circular saws and a couple of miter saws set up amongst other things. I couldn’t resist asking about his Kapex. This was a tired looking 120, 110 volt. He loves it to bits, and said despite it being long out of warranty and abused at times, it’s never missed a beat. It had one repair, nothing to do with the motor, a scaffolder dropped a small tube, which bounced up and smacked the casing on the Kapex, cracking and chipping it.

It was still usable, and he carried on using it until deciding when they were less busy, to get it fixed.

He went on to tell me, that the previous one he’d had, was just as durable and reliable, and was only replaced, as it was stolen.

So, as I’ve now developed an interview technique with any Kapex owners I bump into, it’s only fair to report their experiences.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DynaGlide on March 15, 2019, 07:50 PM
Just finished a week with Greg Paolini. He has ~9 Kapex in his cabinet shop being used regularly. 1 out of the 9 had a motor related issue but it happened within the first month and was taken care of. His opinion is that this is all blown out of proportion and I tend to agree with him. You don't see people flocking to the Internet to report they're completely happy with their purchases.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on March 15, 2019, 08:55 PM
Just finished a week with Greg Paolini. He has ~9 Kapex in his cabinet shop being used regularly. 1 out of the 9 had a motor related issue but it happened within the first month and was taken care of. His opinion is that this is all blown out of proportion and I tend to agree with him. You don't see people flocking to the Internet to report they're completely happy with their purchases.



I didn't realise the failure rate was only one in nine, not really a problem then  [wink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 15, 2019, 09:17 PM
The story JJ relayed was more reassuring.

The 10% failure rate (1/9) was, of course, rather disappointing for a pricey machine like Kapex. Needless to say, that sample was too small to be statistically significant.

Unless and until the motor in my Kapex dies, I will treat it no differently from other Festool machines I own.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DynaGlide on March 15, 2019, 09:57 PM

I didn't realise the failure rate was only one in nine, not really a problem then  [wink]

The story JJ relayed was more reassuring.

The 10% failure rate (1/9) was, of course, rather disappointing for a pricey machine like Kapex. Needless to say, that sample was too small to be statistically significant.

Unless and until the motor in my Kapex dies, I will treat it no differently from other Festool machines I own.

That. .wasn't the point I was trying to make. Every product that is made up of components has a chance to fail. In a cabinet shop setting where the saws are actually used every day all day one saw in how many years of use showed an issue immediately and was taken care of. The rest, nothing.

There are similar threads all the time over on the Harley forums. Because Harley-Davidson motorcycles are so much more expensive than other brands people expect it to be perfect and never fail. Bearings get pre-loaded improperly, parts fall outside tolerances during manufacturing, stuff happens.

I don't have any skin in this. I don't own a Kapex. If I did I would use it just like any other tool and not worry about what may happen to it because of something I read on the Internet. I'm not discrediting that there may be an issue. If you think there is and are in the market, then don't buy the Kapex and get something else. As a consumer you have the choice to put your money where you choose. If you already own one and are under warranty, use it. Heck, abuse the thing as much as you can if you want. It's covered. Sell it off if it's keeping you up at night.

I realize this post may offend some who are deeply invested in this topic. That is not my intent. My hope is that you are able to make peace with this one way or another.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on March 16, 2019, 02:46 AM
You don't see people flocking to the Internet to report they're completely happy with their purchases.

Actually, they do. This forum is one example, which is mainly dedicated to people who love Festool, not hate it. Another is on sites like amazon or newegg where you can leave reviews of your purchases, you read many positive reviews. If the product is good, it gets the praise it deserves.

If the failure rate of the Kapex was just as high as any other tool, we would read a lot about failures from other tools too here, but we don't. The Kapex stands out by a mile.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 16, 2019, 07:39 AM
I think with any product and any make, we tend to hear more about the ones that go wrong, than the ones that are bought and perform great as expected. Simply because if somebody were to go to a forum every time they bought something, and reported that it worked fine without fault and did exactly what it said on the tin or box, people would be wondering if the person was wired up properly! Lol!

I know from an experience of running a certain vehicle forum for many years, that these issues are very real, they’re not made up or rumours, they are characteristic issues with a certain product.
Sure you will get haters signing up on a forum, to simply stir the pot, or fan the flames of an issue but, the majority of the reported issues are real, often backed up with real proof.
I won’t mention the vehicles involved but, if somebody was buying that particular vehicle, I would instantly know what they should be looking for, and the chances are, there would be clear signs that the issues had been addressed.

We had a lot of dealing with the manufacturer and dealers of these vehicles. For a long time the issues were denied or not recognised, until more of the vehicles were sold, so the percentage of issues increased.
Sadly it was all coupled with media coverage, until eventually the issues were recognised and dealt with in an appropriate manner.

Cars, bikes, houses, tools, clothes and just about everything can and often does develop issues, it’s how the issues are dealt with that leaves an impression on customers right?

My thoughts are as follows, the Kapex carries a risk of developing a fault from when you first buy it, more so than other tools in the Festool range.
I have come to this conclusion, simply because i’ve read and heard from owners about a lot of these saws having the smoking/motor issue, unless they are all liars?

It’s not like we hear this on a fairly regular basis about other tools in the range, routers, sanders, circular saws, plunge saws, drills etc, the dust extractors apart from the flimsy tops are superb, the MFT type tables don’t have issues with legs falling off, or the tops breaking in half etc, etc. In fact most of the Festool range is heaped with praise, from pros to hobbyists right accross the board, and rightly so, they are superb tools.

The Kapex however, regardless of what the actual problem is, or the percentage that go west, does carry a risk of going wrong, and from the stats, much more so than any other tool in the line up.

It’s fine, and in reality, not a real worry apart from inconvenience and possible loss of income if a saw develops an issue, provided it’s still in warranty. If the saw is out of warranty, it’s a different story, and this for most of the owners that have experienced a Kapex acting up, is the real gripe.

So, some say Festool should extend the warranty, this then is like admitting there is a real risk with the saw. Also users of other tools would say why not extend the warranty accross the whole range, imagine the cost impact that would incur on the company?

I must admit that when I buy any new Festool tool or accessory, I have no worries or quibbles at all, apart from some of the prices, except the Kapex.
Whatever tool I buy nowadays, even more so for the workshop, would be Festool. The only exclusion I would have would be the Kapex. I don’t currently need a new miter saw but, if I did, it would almost certainly come from another manufacturer.

I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Alex on March 16, 2019, 07:57 AM
I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.

They did, some time ago, here on the forum. They said there wasn't a bigger failure rate for the Kapex than with any other tool. There was a slightly bigger failure rate, but not statistically significant.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on March 16, 2019, 08:17 AM
So the kapex is as reliable as a Harley ?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Mortiser on March 16, 2019, 08:45 AM
After reading all of the posts in this thread over the past couple of months, I am wondering if I am seeing a theme developing that, a Kapex saw that has a problem with an armature burning up, and that armature is then replaced, is it more likely that that particular saw is going to have the problem again? I've read about folks who have had their saw for a long time with no problem and then I read about those who have had the same "smoke" problem more than once on the same saw. If that's the case, you would not want to buy a used saw that ever had the smoking problem, even if Festool service had "fixed" it; or, once you have the problem, you may want to be looking for a different brand replacement saw and not pay the out-of-warranty cost to have it fixed again.
Am I correct in this perception?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 16, 2019, 09:51 AM
I would dearly love Festool to make an announcement, possibly with the new Kapex, and put anybody’s fears or worries to rest over the saw. Or at least reassure customers and potential customers, that there is no higher risk with buying a Kapex, than there is with any other tool in the range.
Is that too much to ask? Personally, I think not.

They did, some time ago, here on the forum. They said there wasn't a bigger failure rate for the Kapex than with any other tool. There was a slightly bigger failure rate, but not statistically significant.

That doesn’t tally with the amount of failures we hear about though Alex? As I mentioned in my earlier post, it’s like a certain car manufacturer saying a problem is non existent when it clearly was, and the manufacturer only conceded once media and disgruntled customer pressure forced their hand.

I think I’d have given Festool more credit if they’d said the problem was statistically consistant, which it seems to be?

So, a new improved Kapex with assurance that it carries little or no risk of developing the smoke/motor issues, that so many of the earlier models suffered with, would be very welcomed. Especially to the unfortunate owners that have had the issue at least once?

@Mortiser It certainly seems that way.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jaybolishes on March 16, 2019, 10:01 AM
It may be time for people to report to The Bureau of Consumer Protection.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 16, 2019, 10:09 AM
After reading all of the posts in this thread over the past couple of months, I am wondering if I am seeing a theme developing that, a Kapex saw that has a problem with an armature burning up, and that armature is then replaced, is it more likely that that particular saw is going to have the problem again? I've read about folks who have had their saw for a long time with no problem and then I read about those who have had the same "smoke" problem more than once on the same saw. If that's the case, you would not want to buy a used saw that ever had the smoking problem, even if Festool service had "fixed" it; or, once you have the problem, you may want to be looking for a different brand replacement saw and not pay the out-of-warranty cost to have it fixed again.
Am I correct in this perception?

See reply #375 & #371...ticking time bomb.  [smile]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: alice on March 16, 2019, 04:54 PM
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on March 16, 2019, 05:23 PM
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?

They didn't like each other? [big grin]

My guess is that it is a whole bunch of electronics that just weren't happy with each other.  The more complicated tools get I suspect we will see more of this.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 16, 2019, 07:43 PM
I recently purchased the dewalt power station but returned anyway I plugged my kapex into it but it wouldn’t run but I plugged my 10” hitachi miter saw and the ct 26 and it ran. Strange the kapex wouldn’t power up. Why?

Powerstation probably produces some very ugly looking AC (wave form),  kapex might see what it's getting and just say "no way".   Any DC to AC setup isn't going to be very pretty, but if it's done on cheap and small, it's not going to be the nicest looking power (less sin wave, more square wave).
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: waho6o9 on March 16, 2019, 07:54 PM
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.

Oops. 

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 16, 2019, 10:31 PM
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.
Oops.
.

Well that’s not good...I’ve got my 4100 hooked up to a Jet Vortex and everything is good...for now....has been for the last 7-8 years.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: waho6o9 on March 16, 2019, 11:38 PM
Good news!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Bohdan on March 16, 2019, 11:52 PM
I plugged my Bosch 4100 into my Festool dust extractor and fried a board on my table saw.

Oops.

Static?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: waho6o9 on March 17, 2019, 12:10 AM
Not static, it was lacking electricity for start up if I recall correctly.

The helpful Bosch techs figured it out and a 40.00 dollar board made the table saw useful again.

I now plug the table saw into an outlet and the dust extractor into a different outlet. 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 24, 2019, 08:16 AM
I was in two different tool shops/stores yesterday, dipping into the pension fund again  [scared]

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.

It really is a shame, as yesterday Festool products relieved me of almost another £2,000. This month alone I must of spent three times that amount on tools, and two thirds of it was with Festool.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 24, 2019, 02:51 PM

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.


They won't know what might be different, unless they have got out tools and did some teardown to compare PNs within.  And like anyshop, they are going to play dumb, or low key to the idea there are issues.  Hard to sell product when you go "oh yeah, these things have a history of frying a lot".
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 24, 2019, 03:02 PM
In the meantime, while people are debating (which is the right word because we really are clueless about how big or widespread the motor problem is) about the Kapex, or struggling if this is the right time to get one, or wondering if, as one of the owners, theirs would smoke in the near future (I'm one of them  [big grin]), I have been cutting amazing mitres (as perfect as they can ever be) ....
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 24, 2019, 04:36 PM

When I got to the miter saw section, the new Kapex 120 was set up in a couple of ways as a demo. Both shops/stores had them on display, and have had them since launch. I asked the assistants questions like, "are the characteristic fault risks eradicated with these now?" The first shop/store assistant said, he knew of some of the problems but, wasn't sure if there had been any electrical changes or updates? The saws look pretty much the same to me apart from additional side extensions and a few other minor changes?

The other shop/store assistant, replied in a very quiet tone, that he'd never heard or knew of any issue risk?

So, for me personally, there's nothing so far that is removing any doubt from my mind regarding the Kapex, if I were looking for a new miter saw, until I get concrete confirmation that any issues, or risk of issues has been removed, or greatly reduced, I wouldn't buy one.


They won't know what might be different, unless they have got out tools and did some teardown to compare PNs within.  And like anyshop, they are going to play dumb, or low key to the idea there are issues.  Hard to sell product when you go "oh yeah, these things have a history of frying a lot".

Yes DT, you’re right and I never pressed the point with either of the assistants because of the points you mention.
I did find myself getting very touchy feely with the display model, and was as usual very impressed at the innovation and little touches that have made this saw legendary.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Joe Felchlin on March 24, 2019, 07:28 PM
And so it goes... 9 pages - 410 Replies... So far.
If Festool would fix the problems with the Kapex - I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
But, a fickle woman... No matter how beautiful and sexy -
Just isn’t worth the aggravation and unfaithfulness.

So, until Festool fixes the problems - The FOG commentary stops detailing failures -
And this - When it’s right - Apparently incredible tool - Can be trusted -
I’ll stick with my tried and trusty Bocsh 5412L SCMS.
Still cuts straight and true... Every time... At a 1/3 the price.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 30, 2019, 07:49 PM
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

I would almost certainly choose a 240 volt version, as although I've heard of cases with both voltages acting up, the 110-120 volt seems the higher percentage?
I genuinely don't know whether to take a leap of faith, or buy a saw roughly three times cheaper? Part of me thinks go for it! but, I then think it would be just my luck to buy one, and it takes a dive out of warranty  [scared]

Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.
However, doubt is a punisher at times.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 30, 2019, 08:05 PM
Can't help you on the armature issue (or worry about the armature issue (after 3 years)), but on the precision aspect, I have not handled anything like the Kapex. See the dead-on mitres in a recent project.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 30, 2019, 10:05 PM
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 30, 2019, 11:40 PM
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]

Well, if you never use it, you save a lot of money on not buying a CT for it and still keeping it dust free, which in turns makes the overall cost of owning a Kapex much less.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 31, 2019, 01:00 AM
Well, if you never use it, you save a lot of money on not buying a CT for it and still keeping it dust free, which in turns makes the overall cost of owning a Kapex much less.

Excellent...I think we're on to something here that's called value added.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on March 31, 2019, 05:17 AM
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

This is where Festool have really shot themselves in the foot. Even if they have fixed the issue they can't say they have because that is admitting that there was one.

 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: jimbo51 on March 31, 2019, 08:10 AM
Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?

This is similar to the Elio car company approach. People put down a $1000 deposit and never have to pay a cent more to operate their Elio. Of course, they do not actually have a Elio in their possession, but that seems like a trivial point.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 31, 2019, 08:57 AM
Up until yesterday, it wasn't a consideration, as we didn't need another miter saw but, now we almost certainly do. Being positive, I have seen a lot more good and positive, even great reports on the saw, and the great feedback definitely outnumbers the negative by a huge margin.

Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?  [poke]

 [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] Look here Mr Cheese, I’ve only just started my love affair with plastic. So now I also have to get used to the idea of buying tools to look at, but not use?
You might have a point though, I could just buy one, perch it on the bench, right in the centre, pride of place etc. Then buy a cheaper saw, with no known risk, and use it for everything, and wipe any stray dust off the Kapex.
Then in ten years, I can say “My Kapex has never missed a beat!”
 [doh]  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 31, 2019, 08:59 AM
Well, unexpectedly we may now be looking for another miter saw in the 250-300mm (10-12") blade category.
Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

This is where Festool have really shot themselves in the foot. Even if they have fixed the issue they can't say they have because that is admitting that there was one.

 

That’s been my thinking lately Doug
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 31, 2019, 09:14 AM
 Guys, There is a much cheaper and portable solution to owning a Kapex without worrying about it: Print a full size poster of it (with the Kapex 60 in the background perhaps), and hang it behind your cheaper chop saw -- the one that you do use, or bring it (framed) with you to the job site. Problem solved!

Sounds like Festool might just as well hand out free posters to save you the trouble ... on April 1st! [big grin]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 31, 2019, 11:03 AM
Guys, There is a much cheaper and portable solution to owning a Kapex without worrying about it: Print a full size poster of it (with the Kapex 60 in the background perhaps), and hang it behind your cheaper chop saw -- the one that you do use, or bring it (framed) with you to the job site. Problem solved!

Sounds like Festool might just as well hand out free posters to save you the trouble ... on April 1st! [big grin]

If you pull the poster from the wall is there a hole in the wall? A big pipe your money went into straight to festool?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 31, 2019, 11:05 AM
Well the nice thing about the Kapex is, if you set it up properly and never use it....it will never fail...what's not to like about that?

This is similar to the Elio car company approach. People put down a $1000 deposit and never have to pay a cent more to operate their Elio. Of course, they do not actually have a Elio in their possession, but that seems like a trivial point.

Nah, they just convert your deposit to their crypto currency and I'm sure the gains will not only pay for your car, it will come with a bag of money in the passenger seat when they drop it off.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 31, 2019, 11:12 AM
Snip.

Sounds like Festool might just as well hand out free posters to save you the trouble ... on April 1st! [big grin]

If you pull the poster from the wall is there a hole in the wall? A big pipe your money went into straight to festool?
[/quote]

Poster owners will have a choice about the hole: it can be either 27mm or 36mm! [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 31, 2019, 12:06 PM
Snip.

Sounds like Festool might just as well hand out free posters to save you the trouble ... on April 1st! [big grin]

If you pull the poster from the wall is there a hole in the wall? A big pipe your money went into straight to festool?

Poster owners will have a choice about the hole: it can be either 27mm or 36mm! [tongue]
[/quote]

With either size they will complain that the old money hole was superior.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on March 31, 2019, 12:34 PM

Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

I would almost certainly choose a 240 volt version, as although I've heard of cases with both voltages acting up, the 110-120 volt seems the higher percentage?


Good news...bad news Jiggy.  [smile]

Festool finally released the EKAT parts list files for the new REB version of the Kapex.

For the GB versions in 110V, 230V and 240V all the field coils and armatures listed for the REB have been used before in previous models.  [sad]

For the US version in 120V the old field coil is listed but with a NEW armature part number. Could this be the moment?    [popcorn]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on March 31, 2019, 12:39 PM
Snip.
For the US version in 120V the old field coil is listed but with a NEW armature part number. Could this be the moment?    [popcorn]

Half glass full here: Could that mean if you ever burned up your motor just once and had it replaced by the NEW armature, you'd then have an ever-lasting happy life with the saw thereafter? [blink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: DeformedTree on March 31, 2019, 12:53 PM

Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

I would almost certainly choose a 240 volt version, as although I've heard of cases with both voltages acting up, the 110-120 volt seems the higher percentage?


Good news...bad news Jiggy.  [smile]

Festool finally released the EKAT parts list files for the new REB version of the Kapex.

For the GB versions in 110V, 230V and 240V all the field coils and armatures listed for the REB have been used before in previous models.  [sad]

For the US version in 120V the old field coil is listed but with a NEW armature part number. Could this be the moment?    [popcorn]

I would be looking at other parts.  Mainly the parts supplying the power to it.  I'm not a big believer the armature was the issue, but more of a victim of something else.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on March 31, 2019, 03:34 PM

Now, I really would love to give the Kapex 120 a shot but, even with the latest model, I haven't seen or heard anything that can eliminate the nagging doubt I have about a possible issue?

I would almost certainly choose a 240 volt version, as although I've heard of cases with both voltages acting up, the 110-120 volt seems the higher percentage?


Good news...bad news Jiggy.  [smile]

Festool finally released the EKAT parts list files for the new REB version of the Kapex.

For the GB versions in 110V, 230V and 240V all the field coils and armatures listed for the REB have been used before in previous models.  [sad]

For the US version in 120V the old field coil is listed but with a NEW armature part number. Could this be the moment?    [popcorn]

Deep joy!, so, the smart money is on a 120 volt version that is destined accross the pond! Otherwise it’s business as usual!  [blink]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: oldcountrywoodworks on April 01, 2019, 03:06 PM
My Kapex went up in smoke twice. First warranty, second time labour only.

The second time I took the motor apart myself to see what I could find.

My conclusion is because the motor is upright with the brushes at the top, the dust falls down. There is an extraction slot at the bottom. But before the dust gets there it accumulates at the top and bottom of the magnets re welding itself into a ring. When it gets to be about one mm thick it breaks off and PUFF.

My plan now is to disassemble the motor once a year and to clean that crap out. Hopefully this will solve the problem.

It is a one to two hour job.

Take pictures of the wiring at the top, there is not much room to get it right.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on April 01, 2019, 03:45 PM
Sounds like a possible measure to keep the chances of "smoking" the Kapex to a minimum (other than not using it [tongue] [big grin]). Is there a way to suck out the dust with a shop vac or dust extractor without any disassembly? I would take a look next time I am in the shop.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 01, 2019, 04:26 PM
My Kapex went up in smoke twice. First warranty, second time labour only.

The second time I took the motor apart myself to see what I could find.

My conclusion is because the motor is upright with the brushes at the top, the dust falls down. There is an extraction slot at the bottom. But before the dust gets there it accumulates at the top and bottom of the magnets re welding itself into a ring. When it gets to be about one mm thick it breaks off and PUFF.

My plan now is to disassemble the motor once a year and to clean that crap out. Hopefully this will solve the problem.

It is a one to two hour job.

Take pictures of the wiring at the top, there is not much room to get it right.

Hi there, well it certainly sounds plausible. I wonder if a fine mesh would stop any debris getting in?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: glass1 on April 01, 2019, 05:11 PM
Finally some rational discussion on this topic after post after post of bs. And to think many of the moderators have chided me and not all the crap 💩  on this thread.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on April 01, 2019, 07:43 PM
This thread has always been about reported issues and theories of what might be wrong with the Kapex.  It continues to be traveling along that avenue.

Moderation hasn't been necessary as far as I remember.

Peter
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 11, 2019, 06:13 AM
I agree Peter, I think the thread has been honest and to the point without malice.
I have spoken to a good few Kapex 120 owners now, and read and heard of quite a few of the unfortunate tales of smoke appearing from the motor housing, or sudden power loss, and failure etc.
However, I constantly hear and read about many more positive reviews from very happy owners. So, I like to be open minded about these sort of things.

Currently, I am seriously chomping at the bit to buy one now, as we do need another miter saw, and I’ve fancied one for a while.
I can’t deny I still have doubt, and at the back of my mind, I sort of hope that Festool found out what was causing some of the saws to fail, and have remedied it with the latest model. Albeit still denying or recognising an issue.

Personally I have given up trying to work out if there is any pattern connected to the failures. Simply because I know of cases with both voltages, and with saws that get used in all capacity, even mistreated regularly, and some that are “shelf queens” or wrapped in cotton wool.

The voltage or amperage fluctuations sound plausible but, I would of thought a premium tool such as this would have the relevant protection built in?
So, personally I haven’t a clue, at this stage I’m more concerned about the odds or percentages, and it still seems that any failures are in a very small percentage.

I have to make a decision pretty soon now, between the Makita LS1019L or Festool Kapex KS 120 REB   [unsure] [scratch chin]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on April 11, 2019, 08:11 AM
Go for Kapex and UG stand, it is an awesome combination and I would be amazed if Festool have not sorted out the problems by now.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on April 11, 2019, 09:11 AM
Go for Kapex and UG stand, it is an awesome combination and I would be amazed if Festool have not sorted out the problems by now.

$2,435 US with extension wings...amazed might not quite be the perfect word here!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on April 11, 2019, 09:23 AM

Currently, I am seriously chomping at the bit to buy one now, as we do need another miter saw, and I’ve fancied one for a while.


Well Jiggy, just to make your decision more painful... [poke]...I absolutely love my Kapex. It's a fantastic saw and the accuracy is unbelievable. Five years later and I'm still impressed when cutting miters. I owned 3 different Milwaukee miter saws before the Kapex and while they were all tough as nails, they seldom cut accurate 45º miters before they'd go back out of misalignment.

If my Kapex goes up in smoke, I'll fix it and if it goes up in smoke a 2nd time, I'll sell it and then buy a new Kapex.  [smile]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on April 11, 2019, 09:47 AM
Five years later and I'm still impressed when cutting miters.

Accurate bevels too. As I see it, there are only two solutions to the "pain" problem:

i) Go get a Kapex (and worry about it (if you choose to), but no pain)
ii) Take a pain killer everyday while agonizing  if you should get a Kapex.  [tongue]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Michael Kellough on April 11, 2019, 09:53 AM
I’ll join the pile-on.

If anyone is a good candidate to buy a Kepex it’s you Jiggy.
The questionable longevity is really only an issue (in terms of cost effectiveness) for occasional users.

Once you get used to the Kapex the temporary loss due to repair (if it occurs) will have a bigger emotional impact than financial, since you are a professional.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 11, 2019, 02:31 PM
Haha! You guys are more entertaining than TV!  [thumbs up]
I think you also make a lot of sense too, and in reality life’s too short to worry how long a miter saw will last.

My mind is pretty much made up but, 110 volt or 240 volt?  [scared]  ;)
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 16, 2019, 06:45 PM
Well that was short and sweet, my Kapex has bit the dust and I haven’t used it yet  [sad]

I ordered the set from a supplier I haven’t used in a long time. When I enquired about how well it would be packed, I was told it would actually be on a pallet, and therefore no next day delivery. I was assured the packaging would be more than adequate.
Then it did arrive next day, no pallet though, just three boxes, two of which were beaten up a bit.
Well everything is ok, apart from the saw itself, it wasn’t even locked down, just a zip tie through the handle, and some polystyrene?
There is a crack and a hole in the back of the saw, friction marks everywhere, the quick clamp is so badly bent, I can’t remove it, and the angle finder was loose inside and looks like it’s bounced off every part of the saw?

How absolutely disgusting is this?
I had a similar thing a while back with some other brand tools.
The problem is, the factory packaging is fine when the stuff turns up at the dealers, it’s on a pallet, and the right way up. That tool might get sold over the counter, and the customer will keep it upright, unpack it and all is good. Why do these suppliers think the same packaging will survive possible rough handling, being rolled as I’ve seen many times!
My saw was upside down on the van when it arrived?

Not sure if this is a bad omen, I went to buy a saw on Saturday, and as I walked to the counter, they were selling the last one, and now this?

I have emailed the supplier and told them exactly what I think.
I have asked for a replacement saw, as everything else seems ok, or I will get a full refund on everything.

Maybe the manufacturers need to start advising dealers about distance selling packaging, as I know others on here have suffered the same.
I also asked them not to register a possible replacement, as I like to register my own tools, this is a perfect example of why.
Also this is why I like to buy over the counter.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on April 16, 2019, 07:13 PM
Snip.
Also this is why I like to buy over the counter.

Sorry to hear that your Kapex went "bust" so quickly...was it a record? [tongue]

I, too, prefer to buy medium to large size or stationary machines over the counter as any repair/return can be arranged more easily.

These days, delivery service is not reliable because everything is insured for loss or damage; delivery companies treat damage and claims as part of the business cost.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Peter Halle on April 16, 2019, 08:00 PM
You’ll get it sorted out I am sure!
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: pettyconstruction on April 17, 2019, 12:26 AM
Well that was short and sweet, my Kapex has bit the dust and I haven’t used it yet  [sad]

I ordered the set from a supplier I haven’t used in a long time. When I enquired about how well it would be packed, I was told it would actually be on a pallet, and therefore no next day delivery. I was assured the packaging would be more than adequate.
Then it did arrive next day, no pallet though, just three boxes, two of which were beaten up a bit.
Well everything is ok, apart from the saw itself, it wasn’t even locked down, just a zip tie through the handle, and some polystyrene?
There is a crack and a hole in the back of the saw, friction marks everywhere, the quick clamp is so badly bent, I can’t remove it, and the angle finder was loose inside and looks like it’s bounced off every part of the saw?

How absolutely disgusting is this?
I had a similar thing a while back with some other brand tools.
The problem is, the factory packaging is fine when the stuff turns up at the dealers, it’s on a pallet, and the right way up. That tool might get sold over the counter, and the customer will keep it upright, unpack it and all is good. Why do these suppliers think the same packaging will survive possible rough handling, being rolled as I’ve seen many times!
My saw was upside down on the van when it arrived?

Not sure if this is a bad omen, I went to buy a saw on Saturday, and as I walked to the counter, they were selling the last one, and now this?

I have emailed the supplier and told them exactly what I think.
I have asked for a replacement saw, as everything else seems ok, or I will get a full refund on everything.

Maybe the manufacturers need to start advising dealers about distance selling packaging, as I know others on here have suffered the same.
I also asked them not to register a possible replacement, as I like to register my own tools, this is a perfect example of why.
Also this is why I like to buy over the counter.
I buy a lot of Festool online , but the Kapex I would buy at a brick and mortar store , if anything where to happen to it, I would have a rep to help deal with it. And  save the box.
Charlie


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Cheese on April 17, 2019, 12:47 AM
Well Jiggy what you’ve described is disgusting. It’s certainly not a great way to start a romance. Festool if they’re listening should seriously chastise the distributor.  First impressions are lasting impressions.

I’d immediately reject the saw and ask for a replacement. Who knows what else has been damaged in the shipping process. And why is it your responsibility to ferret it out?

That’s exactly the reason Bob Marino was held in so high esteem in the US. This same situation would never pass muster with him.

Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 17, 2019, 09:00 AM
Thanks Cheese, well I sent them a mail last night, and because I was very tired and frustrated, it was very much to the point so to speak.
I got a phone call this morning from the same lady I spoke too before ordering.

To be fair, she was very apologetic, and told me she actually had an argument with the warehouse staff, as she instructed them to put it on a pallet, and their excuse was, by sending it loose it would arrive quicker? No good if it’s not usable though.

Anyway, they offered to collect with a refund, or collect and replace everything, this time on a pallet.
So, I decided to give them another chance to redeem themselves. Only trouble is, because of Easter, it will probably be next week before I see it  [sad]

I had a similar thing early in the year with some Makita tools, a certain company were the only ones who had stock. I cannot describe the mess I discovered when unboxing.
Then to make matters worse, they almost accused me of causing the damage!  [scared]
I eventually took legal advice, and spoke to Makita, who kindly intervened, and turned the situation around. This left a bad taste though, and was the exact reason why I phoned this recent supplier, to make sure the packaging wasn’t scrimped on.

Anyway, hopefully the replacement will be fine, and a new love affair will blossom!  [big grin]
Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 17, 2019, 09:04 AM
Peter and Charlie, thanks, yes I dearly wanted to buy over the counter but, both my usual suppliers are awaiting stock.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on April 18, 2019, 05:15 PM
Just an update, the full replacement set arrived today, on a pallet but, the driver decided to pile other packages on top of it. Don’t think there’s much common sense or consideration around nowadays. I noticed the saw box was on end instead of the right way up  [sad]
Anyway, one box that held the side extensions was a bit squashed but, the contents survived.
The box with the cart/stand was fine and very well internally packed, so all good there.
Then with my heart in my mouth, I got to the Kapex, opened the box, the same four pieces of polystyrene, and a zip tie, all look in tact.
The angle finder again was loose and had obviously had a bit of exercise on the trip but, seemed ok, and worked fine, just can’t understand why this wasn’t in it’s own box etc?
The saw looked fine, but the transport lock wasn't engaged, just foam and a zip tie holding the saw head down? Crazy really.

The work piece clamp, was again clamped to the base, and again because of movement had locked itself up, and took a lot of messing around to release it. It also suffered the same marks to the shaft, and was also slightly bent, anyway, it’s not usable in it’s current state but, everything else is fine, so I’m grateful for that.

The supplier contacted Festool, and they are sending a new clamp direct to me, so not a big deal, and then I’m sorted.
The supplier acted in a very professional way, and tried to sort out the unfortunate situation as quickly as possible, and apart from the clamp, they did. I will remember this in future when buying. Anybody can have issues, it’s how they’re dealt with that matters to me.

It has further made me anxious about buying large or expensive tools online though, as this is the third time I’ve experienced this but, with other brands.
The simple fact is, the packaging is not adequate for any sort of real distance.
Some might argue that the dealer should ensure extra packing, and to some extent I agree. However, the way my tools arrived is the same packing as the dealers get from the manufacturer, and often new stock arrives badly damaged as a consequence, I’ve found out many cases of this in the last year, just from talking to dealers.

I have written to Festool UK today, telling them the story with a few photos, and told them I was obviously a bit disappointed but, I am also trying to give them some input and feedback as a customer. In my opinion some of the packaging is just inadequate, and I have asked them their thoughts about it.

I have had a quick play with the saw, I’m initially very impressed with it and can see why they are held in such high regard. I have owned some great miter saws over the years but, nothing quite like this.
It’s cutting square untouched out of the box, and although the lasers were lined up fine, I adjusted them more to my liking.

Not sure I like the motor sound/tone, it’s not like any of my other saws but, neither is my TS55, that always sounds odd to me?

So, after reading many good, and a good few bad stories about the Kapex, and taking part in this thread, to show I’m game and open minded, (wanted one for a while now) I’ve bought one.

I hope it creates a lot of dust ( for the extractor) but never bites any  [big grin] [thumbs up]
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Norfolk Bean on May 13, 2019, 03:49 PM
Hi,

I haven't posted for some time but do keep tabs of what's going on. Well my Kapex died today half way through a big job  [sad].

I have had it for 7 years but it only gets used on kitchen fits due to it's accuracy. I have a smaller Dewalt for studwork etc.
So it has not had a lot of use really but as it is 7 years old, well out of guarantee.
So will make the call tomorrow to Bury St. Edmunds where I believe they repair them. The good news is it's only 35 miles down the road so will deliver it there myself.
No idea of cost but knowing Festool it is probably going to be expensive.

Will keep you posted on how it goes.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on May 13, 2019, 04:42 PM
Hi,

I haven't posted for some time but do keep tabs of what's going on. Well my Kapex died today half way through a big job  [sad].

I have had it for 7 years but it only gets used on kitchen fits due to it's accuracy. I have a smaller Dewalt for studwork etc.
So it has not had a lot of use really but as it is 7 years old, well out of guarantee.
So will make the call tomorrow to Bury St. Edmunds where I believe they repair them. The good news is it's only 35 miles down the road so will deliver it there myself.
No idea of cost but knowing Festool it is probably going to be expensive.

Will keep you posted on how it goes.

Sorry to read this, I hope it gets sorted as quickly as possible for you.
No sure how true this is but, at the weekend I asked a dealer about his experience with Kapex failures, and he was very honest, or at least seemed so. He said he had seen a fair few come in for repair but, some consolation is that for a while now, the repairs have been carried out with later improved parts, that the latest 120 has. He said this should, and has so far eradicated repeat failures?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on May 13, 2019, 04:50 PM
Snip.
some consolation is that for a while now, the repairs have been carried out with later improved parts, that the latest 120 has. He said this should, and has so far eradicated repeat failures?

As much as it is something I was happy to hear, I kinda doubt about that assessment unless we can pinpoint what those improved parts are. In any case, the new Kapex has been around for just 6 months(?), and even if the new parts are used now for repairs, it would be too early to draw any useful conclusions.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on May 13, 2019, 05:05 PM
I thought the same Chuck but, I wonder if the latest parts have been around for longer than we think, and using them in repairs for a while may have been part of testing?
Just thinking out loud here.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Slowlearner on May 13, 2019, 06:22 PM
Im happy they might have fixed the problem but also un happy bc then ill have to blow 2500 lol
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Norfolk Bean on May 24, 2019, 03:00 PM
Hi,

Just a update on my Kapex woes. I am lucky enough to live within 40 minutes of the Festool HQ, so was able to drop my Kapex in to them.
That was a week ago, and I collected it today.
It  cost £214-00 inc VAT to repair, so it could have been worse I guess.

When speaking to the technician who repaired it he said it had a complete over hall. New bits included a new armature, brushes, a new blade insert in the top. They also reset the laser and a couple of other small bits.
So all in all I am happy. The worrying thing to me was that there were four other Kapex machines waiting to be collected !

The staff at Festool UK were very helpful and informative, lets hope my saw gives me many more years of service, fingers crossed.

Mark.
 
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on May 24, 2019, 03:21 PM
That is about 10% of the current price of a new Kapex, much acceptable from a cost point of view, but less so in terms of reliability when the machine is only 7 years old. I would expect any mitre saw, on average, should have a robust motor that does not need any repair for at least 10 years. I have had no motor issues with any of my woodworking machines (dust collectors, shop vacs, bandsaw, routers, drill press, lathe, etc.) that are over 10 years of age. And most of those motors are made in Taiwan or China, not German technology.

Again, we know nothing about how many Kapexes have been sold, so the fact of four other saws waiting to be picked up doesn't tell us much.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on May 24, 2019, 03:23 PM
Glad that you got sorted, and have your saw back and hopefully it will last years.
£214 as you say isn’t bad, obviously it would of been better if it never acted up but, could of been worse.
I’d imagine it’s fitted with upgraded parts, as I was told they have bee repairing them with improved components for a while now.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Norfolk Bean on May 24, 2019, 03:30 PM
Chuck,

yes you are right about the four saws waiting to be collected. I didn't want to start a debate about this, just thought I would mention it.
And I agree about the longevity of the saw, I was hoping that the fact it was a Festool and the cost of purchase initially that it would of lasted longer than it did, especially as it only gets used for my high end work.

I am sure that the cost of repair will be soon forgotten once it is put back to work, but again I concur that it is disappointing on a saw that at the time of purchase cost me around 1k in English pounds.

mark.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Norfolk Bean on May 24, 2019, 03:36 PM
Hi,

Jiggy,  yes it is fitted with the new armature. One thing I didn't mention was I was told that Festool will repair this fault F.O.C. for any saw up to 5 years old, but mine was 7 years old so had to pay.

And as much as that sucks, it is a cheap repair in what would have cost a lot more to buy a new one.

Mark.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on May 24, 2019, 04:22 PM
Hi,

Jiggy,  yes it is fitted with the new armature. One thing I didn't mention was I was told that Festool will repair this fault F.O.C. for any saw up to 5 years old, but mine was 7 years old so had to pay.

That is a bit cheeky from Festool considering the part is a known problem and the age of the saw does not necessarily represent the amount of use it may have had.

Glad to hear you are up and running again and should be no more problems in the future.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: ChuckM on May 24, 2019, 04:30 PM
One thing I didn't mention was I was told that Festool will repair this fault F.O.C. for any saw up to 5 years old, but mine was 7 years old so had to pay.

Five or three?

There have been contradicting remarks on this. Many American owners are adamant that their warranty covers three years only; some Canadian owners reported that they had got free repairs up to five years. My paperwork (Canadian) says 1+2 for three years. Officially, my Kapex (4 yrs old) is no longer covered if it ever goes south.

As for new parts (e.g. armature), someone seemed to have pointed out the part # is the same in the Ekat, and so are they really fixing the motors with new and different armatures? i wonder if anyone from Festool can some shed light on this so-called improved parts.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: kevinculle on May 24, 2019, 05:01 PM
Industry practice generally is that changes to a part that do not affect form, fit or function can maintain the same part number.  If the armature has been changed to improve its electrical durability without a part number change then that makes it impossible to track whether the "improved" armature is indeed better.
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on May 24, 2019, 05:32 PM
It really does seem a can of worms, and Festool still remaining tight lipped about percentages, causes and fixes isn’t helping anybody, least of all Festool?
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Doug S on May 24, 2019, 05:54 PM
Second time mine was repaired it was out of the 3 year warranty but fixed for free, just checked and it was 4yrs 10 months old when fixed so guess I was just inside the window.

That was almost 2 years ago and no more problems yet.

I was told by a Festool rep not long after the repair it would have been fixed with an updated part so I think unless we hear of any Kapex smoking which are less then 2 years old or repaired less then 2 years ago (which I don't recall we have?) we can presume the problem is no more.......
Title: Re: Another Kapex Bites the dust. Again.
Post by: Jiggy Joiner on May 24, 2019, 06:45 PM
To be honest Doug, that’s pretty much what I was told by a Festool employee.