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Author Topic: Carvex Dead  (Read 3699 times)

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Offline john5mt

  • Posts: 87
Carvex Dead
« on: November 24, 2017, 05:02 PM »
Ok....what's up with the Carvex?

Ive been an avid festoolian but im a little ticked.

Bought it when it was first released in NA and last summer it started to vibrate like a MOFO

sent it in and the quote was 392 bucks to fix it...motor, case, balancing shaft. Basically it wore itself out like a chinese pos

Are they not making the carvex with quality parts? Ive had my bosch 1591 evsk since 2005 and it never gave me a lick of trouble. and it cost half as much WTH?

Why can I get a brand new carvex and a systainer and all the associated parts for less than what it cost to repair my old one? Is this seriously how festool does business? Even though i loved the way this saw cut before it broke. I will not ever waste the money for another and seriously consider future festool purchases that do not offer unique capabilities. I was buying all festool to because i wanted long term usage out of tools, but if i cant get festool to outlast my chinese produced tools that are half or a third as much cost. There is no reason to purchase them.
Smoking the green crack

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Online Peter Halle

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 05:13 PM »
Sorry to hear about your issue with the Carvex.  Nothing I am about to write will probably help, but sometimes it is more expensive to repair things than what they cost or are worth.  It would seem that until the beginning of June you were happy with the Carvex and what it produced for you.  Complaints about the longevity of the Carvex appear to be rare here if my memory is correct.  Obviously there will be exceptions.  There are lots of questions and complaints about it not doing what people want to do or how they want it achieved, and certainly a bunch of comparisons to other manufacturers' tools which are the answer to all means.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3722
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 05:44 PM »
Sorry to hear about your issue.  [sad]  Is it corded or cordless?

It’s bad enough that the saw crapped out but if it’s the corded version, then the final coup de grace is the $392 repair estimate. A new Carvex with accessories and Systainer costs $372 and has a 3 year warranty. Why would anyone spend $392 for repairs and a 1 year warranty?

I’d think Festool would simply write you a brief note explaining that the cost of repairs was in excess of the price of a new Carvex. And as a current Festool customer they would give you a discount on a new Carvex. Take $372 minus the SYS 1 price of $72 yields $300. Now discount the saw by 15% for your trouble and the cost of customer satisfaction and it’d be yours for $255.

Festool certainly isn’t losing money and more importantly they aren’t losing a customer. 

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 05:46 PM »
...Ive had my bosch 1591 esvk since 2005 and it never gave me a lick of trouble. and it cost half as much WTH?
...

Wise decision to have a good back up unit.
Will it fit in the carves Systainer?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:48 PM by Holmz »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 05:52 PM »
Sorry to hear about your issue.  [sad]  Is it corded or cordless?

It’s bad enough that the saw crapped out but if it’s the corded version, then the final coup de grace is the $392 repair estimate. A new Carvex with accessories and Systainer costs $372 and has a 3 year warranty. Why would anyone spend $392 for repairs and a 1 year warranty?

I’d think Festool would simply write you a brief note explaining that the cost of repairs was in excess of the price of a new Carvex. And as a current Festool customer they would give you a discount on a new Carvex. Take $372 minus the SYS 1 price of $72 yields $300. Now discount the saw by 15% for your trouble and the cost of customer satisfaction and it’d be yours for $255.

Festool certainly isn’t losing money and more importantly they aren’t losing a customer.

I'd buy a rattlecan of green paint and put the Bosch into the systaner, and still have $300+ left over. Selling the Carvex for parts could get some additional$ and cents.

Offline antss

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 07:23 PM »
Quote
I was buying all festool to because i wanted long term usage out of tools, but if i cant get festool to outlast my chinese produced tools that are half or a third as much cost. There is no reason to purchase them.

The mystique that Festool has created about its tools being more robust and longer wearing than other makes is simply a myth.  They aren't necessarily worse than the popular brands with one notable exception. But they aren't better, it's just what people tell themselves to justify the higher purchase price Festool has managed to command.

Ask pretty much any tradesman or serious woodworker which jigsaw is going to last the longest and the reply quickly single out Bosch. Many guys have models that are decades old and still going strong.  My everyday beater is from 1993.  They're the energizer bunny of jigsaws.

Quote
will not ever waste the money for another and seriously consider future festool purchases that do not offer unique capabilities.

Uniqueness is a good reason for buying Festool.  The track saw got me started in the 90's when no one else had one.  Domino is another unique offering.  Conturo is also in the same category.  Their routers used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection, but that has changed.  OF2200 is still a nice bit of kit if you need a handheld 3+ h.p. unit.  The large 850 planer has little to no competition, but aside from those there isn't much unique in the lineup. 


« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 08:24 AM by antss »

Offline Holmz

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 08:11 PM »
...

Quote
will not ever waste the money for another and seriously consider future festool purchases that do not offer unique capabilities.

Uniqueness is a good reason for buying Festool.  ...
Their routers used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection, but that has changed.  OF2200 is still a nice bit of kit if you need a handheld 3+ h.p. unit.  The large 850 planer has little to no competition, but aside form those there isn't much unique in the lineup.

Which routers "used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection"?


Offline antss

  • Posts: 1432
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 10:07 PM »
Quote
Which routers "used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection"?

 [huh]  um, how many routers do/have they had over the years ?  ::)


and I guess I need to clarify "efficient for a router" so we don't get off track.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 10:18 PM »
Quote
Which routers "used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection"?

 [huh]  um, how many routers do/have they had over the years ?  ::)


and I guess I need to clarify "efficient for a router" so we don't get off track.

No - you do not need to clarify "efficient".
It was more of a trick question... As the OF2000 was made by a Mafell, and the 1000 I think was somewhat like the LO50.
or
Was it some other earlier router(s)...? ... and then who/which company actually made that one before it was rebadged as Festo or Festool?
Was it Elu or some other company?

The Carvex is not a rebadged Bosch.

Online Peter Halle

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 10:34 PM »
How about we stay on topic.

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 03:00 AM »
Uniqueness is a good reason for buying Festool.  The track saw got me started in the 90's when no one else had one.  Domino is another unique offering.  Conturo is also in the same category.  Their routers used to be the only ones with serious and efficient dust collection, but that has changed.  OF2200 is still a nice bit of kit if you need a handheld 3+ h.p. unit.  The large 850 planer has little to no competition, but aside form those there isn't much unique in the lineup.

Uniqueness is indeed a good reason for purchasing Festool. Granted, Festool does not have the same commanding lead in this arena that they had say 5-7 years ago, however they still offer some unique products that offer much merit.

I’d say the LS 130 is still in that category as is the Kapex despite its extremely dodgy reputation for reliability. Perhaps the MFS variants broach this boundary, however they’ve been discontinued.

The electronic torque sensing on their drills is also above reproach. As is the previously mentioned tools like the DF 500/700 series.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 03:13 AM by Cheese »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2017, 10:06 AM »
This thread should not be used to restart a discussion from a previously locked topic. Nor turn it into a Kapex issues topic.

The OP has a situation with his Carvex  costing more to repair than replace. And though the saw apparently had been working very well for him it has not held up as long as would be hoped.  Peter H. mentioned earlier in the topic that we have not had many complaints about Carvex longevity. It is an unfortunate event for john5mt.

Thanks,

   Seth
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 10:13 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline john5mt

  • Posts: 87
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2017, 10:28 AM »
Yes.....my questions were concerning the build quality how on earth does every functioning part on this saw wear out in so few years?

Why is it only warrantied for 36 months when a Chinese building company like Hitachi offers a minimum 5 year professional warranty on tools that cost a 1/3 as much. Apparently they dont have more confidence in their german manufacturing than Hitachi has in the Chinese manufacturing.

How does it cost 392 dollars to fix a 350 retail saw? Theyre trying to make more on the parts than they made on the saw the first time.
Smoking the green crack

Offline antss

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2017, 02:35 PM »
While warranty can be an expression of confidence in build quality, it isn't necessarily a byproduct. 

If practical, a company will strive to offer zero warranty.  It generally helps with the marketing to offer a warranty and absorb the costs though.  Festool doesn't have a fiver because they don't have to.  We keep buying the gear despite the high prices and not best in class warranty.  That said , it is better than many companies warranty.

The $392 also covers labor to teardown and rebuild the saw as well as profit for all the layers of distribution to get those parts in place in Indy.  Free estimates aren't really free.  I also think return shipping is in that # too , isn't it?  So broken down, I can see how we get to nearly 400 bucks even if the number is ludicrous.

Assuming John didn't abuse his saw  - and If they were savvy FT would eat their $100-$150 net cost and replace the saw with a new one.  The bump to their reputation would easily exceed the investment.   How much do we think the bad taste in John's mouth is going to cost in lost sales down the road ?    And do you suppose the perception of this group's members (whether warranted or not) is negatively affected by more than $150 ?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2017, 12:43 AM »
Yes.....my questions were concerning the build quality how on earth does every functioning part on this saw wear out in so few years?

Why is it only warrantied for 36 months when a Chinese building company like Hitachi offers a minimum 5 year professional warranty on tools that cost a 1/3 as much. Apparently they dont have more confidence in their german manufacturing than Hitachi has in the Chinese manufacturing.

How does it cost 392 dollars to fix a 350 retail saw? Theyre trying to make more on the parts than they made on the saw the first time.

There are some good products from China, and where it is not then the value is perceived as high. If it weren't then the trade deficit would not be so outstandingly high.

In any case Hitachi is based in Japan, who were known for poor quality in the early days of transistor radios and Hondas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi
But the times have changed since the 60s, and the Japanese tools have been good for many decades.

We all know or want to believe that BMWs and Audis are superior to Lexus and Nissan Skyline GTRs, and that USDA Corn fed beef is better than Kobi beef... And the Carvex is better than a Hitachi.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2017, 03:51 AM »
Sorry to hear about your Carvex John.  I thought it would have been covered by a 3-year warranty.  I guess not.

You’re best alternative for a replacement would be the Bosch 572, it’s assembled in Hungry with Swiss made parts from Mafell.  I wouldn’t drop $400 on a repair. 

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2017, 09:49 AM »
Sorry to hear about your Carvex John.  I thought it would have been covered by a 3-year warranty.  I guess not.

You’re best alternative for a replacement would be the Bosch 572, it’s assembled in Hungry with Swiss made parts from Mafell.  I wouldn’t drop $400 on a repair.

   From what I gather it is more than three years old.

Seth

Online Michael Kellough

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2017, 10:52 AM »
My Bosch 1582 DVS (the first Bosch tool-less blade change jigsaw with dust collection)
is more than thirty years old.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2017, 11:05 AM »
Sorry to hear about your Carvex John.  I thought it would have been covered by a 3-year warranty.  I guess not.

You’re best alternative for a replacement would be the Bosch 572, it’s assembled in Hungry with Swiss made parts from Mafell.  I wouldn’t drop $400 on a repair.

   From what I gather it is more than three years old.

Seth


My Bosch 1582 DVS (the first Bosch tool-less blade change jigsaw with dust collection)
is more than thirty years old.



      I was not commenting on the longevity. Just trying to clarify that John's  saw had been covered by a three year warranty and is no longer under warranty due to being more than three years old. Am I right about that @john5mt ?

Seth

Offline john5mt

  • Posts: 87
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2017, 11:09 PM »
Yup. It was 3.5 years old.

Good tip on the mafell parts. Have to check it out. That increases my confidence in that saw. The amount of people that are getting such short usage out of their carvex's is crazy. Whereas my experience and the testimony has been the boschs last forever. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 11:12 PM by john5mt »
Smoking the green crack

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2017, 01:41 AM »
Yup. It was 3.5 years old.

Good tip on the mafell parts. Have to check it out. That increases my confidence in that saw. The amount of people that are getting such short usage out of their carvex's is crazy. Whereas my experience and the testimony has been the boschs last forever.

It’s hard to find tools built like they were 30-years ago.  My Grandpa’s 56 year-old Black and Decker drill from 1961 finally gave up the ghost this year.  I used to call the drill Big Ugly because it clocked in at ten pounds and you smell the moldy oil in that drill.  Canada was still using the Union Jack for a flag and Kennedy was still President when my Grandpa bought that drill.  I would’ve fixed it if I could’ve found any parts for it.

You have to be happy with getting 10-15 years these days.  The Bosch 572 is a great choice for a reliable performer without dropping serious money on the Mafell or another highend Euro brand. 


Online Gregor

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 08:34 AM »
It’s bad enough that the saw crapped out but if it’s the corded version, then the final coup de grace is the $392 repair estimate. A new Carvex with accessories and Systainer costs $372 and has a 3 year warranty. Why would anyone spend $392 for repairs and a 1 year warranty?

I’d think Festool would simply write you a brief note explaining that the cost of repairs was in excess of the price of a new Carvex.
Definitively this. A repair quote that is nearing NIB list price (or even higher) should contain a note that getting a new one could be more economical.

Quote
And as a current Festool customer they would give you a discount on a new Carvex. Take $372 minus the SYS 1 price of $72 yields $300.

Now discount the saw by 15% for your trouble and the cost of customer satisfaction and it’d be yours for $255.
In case it's only the actual tool then the other contents of the systainer could also play into it.

Quote
Festool certainly isn’t losing money and more importantly they aren’t losing a customer.
Rule of thumb I was teached for business was: it costs 10 times to get a new customer than what it takes to keep one.
(exceptions for obnoxious ones apply, YMMV)

Offline Holmz

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 03:36 PM »
...

It’s hard to find tools built like they were 30-years ago.  My Grandpa’s 56 year-old Black and Decker drill from 1961 finally gave up the ghost this year.  I used to call the drill Big Ugly because it clocked in at ten pounds and you smell the moldy oil in that drill.  Canada was still using the Union Jack for a flag and Kennedy was still President when my Grandpa bought that drill.  I would’ve fixed it if I could’ve found any parts for it.

You have to be happy with getting 10-15 years these days.  The Bosch 572 is a great choice for a reliable performer without dropping serious money on the Mafell or another highend Euro brand.

If we divide the cost by the years it lasts, then we arrive at a cost/year metric.

The denominator changing by a factor of 10 is more significant than the numerator changing by a factor of 2.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2017, 06:51 PM »
...

It’s hard to find tools built like they were 30-years ago.  My Grandpa’s 56 year-old Black and Decker drill from 1961 finally gave up the ghost this year.  I used to call the drill Big Ugly because it clocked in at ten pounds and you smell the moldy oil in that drill.  Canada was still using the Union Jack for a flag and Kennedy was still President when my Grandpa bought that drill.  I would’ve fixed it if I could’ve found any parts for it.

You have to be happy with getting 10-15 years these days.  The Bosch 572 is a great choice for a reliable performer without dropping serious money on the Mafell or another highend Euro brand.

If we divide the cost by the years it lasts, then we arrive at a cost/year metric.

The denominator changing by a factor of 10 is more significant than the numerator changing by a factor of 2.

Sometimes you buy the best possible tool you can afford based on the amount of usage you’re getting.  You budget more for the tools you’re going to use the most and less for tools that get use casually. 

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 02:53 AM »
...
Sometimes you buy the best possible tool you can afford based on the amount of usage you’re getting.  You budget more for the tools you’re going to use the most and less for tools that get use casually.

And one does not budget for a tool not working...

My point was similar to the OPs... 3-years for a high priced tool is not good value, (but one cannot extrapolate that all the Carvex only last 3-years.)

An expensive tool, or the less expensive Bosch, both which seem to last longer are a better long term value.


Offline antss

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Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 09:43 AM »
Quote
And one does not budget for a tool not working...

Then you are not figuring your costs properly.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 264
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 09:56 AM »
...
Sometimes you buy the best possible tool you can afford based on the amount of usage you’re getting.  You budget more for the tools you’re going to use the most and less for tools that get use casually.

And one does not budget for a tool not working...

My point was similar to the OPs... 3-years for a high priced tool is not good value, (but one cannot extrapolate that all the Carvex only last 3-years.)

An expensive tool, or the less expensive Bosch, both which seem to last longer are a better long term value.

There’s no argument against that.  Festool should be offering a 5-year warranty for it tools at the prices they’re being sold at.  It takes most business 5 -7 years to write off the costs of tool depending on their countries tax codes.

Festool comes out the looser on a tool that dies just after 3 years.  It’s someone that’ll not only replace that tool with a Bosch, it’s someone that will buy a Mafell track saw or Mirka sander too if they’ve lost confidence in the brand.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2017, 10:08 AM »
My Bosch 1582 DVS (the first Bosch tool-less blade change jigsaw with dust collection)
is more than thirty years old.
  I have the non-dust collecting version of the Jigsaw, and yes, it's still going strong since the early 90's when it came out.  I bought a Carvex to supplement the Bosch, but I won't give up the Bosch jigsaw.... [smile]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2017, 10:20 AM »
Yes.....my questions were concerning the build quality how on earth does every functioning part on this saw wear out in so few years?

Why is it only warrantied for 36 months when a Chinese building company like Hitachi offers a minimum 5 year professional warranty on tools that cost a 1/3 as much. Apparently they dont have more confidence in their german manufacturing than Hitachi has in the Chinese manufacturing.

How does it cost 392 dollars to fix a 350 retail saw? Theyre trying to make more on the parts than they made on the saw the first time.
   As Seth or maybe it was Peter, stated, repair costs on many things can exceed the new, replacement cost of an item.  I've run into this trying to repair tools over the past 30 years, so it's not a new thing for me.
  As a small sidebar of sorts on this topic,   the car business is historically a great example of this in several ways. If you add up the replacement cost of each individual item in a car, it often exceeds the total cost of the car purchased new.
 Also,  the 'warranty' cost of a part is not the same as the retail cost that you would get charged if you wanted one off the shelf. Car Manufs. and their dealers have a whole different parts cost listing for Retail, repair Shops, Insurance Companies, Aftermarket Extended Warranties, internal/ Factory Extended Warranties and plain vehicle under a warranty.  Doesn't apply in your Carvex case, but I'm just showing how complex they can make it...... [eek]
 
 So, I really get how the repair cost of a tool can exceed the cost of a whole new one off the shelf since I've seen it with many tools over the years, no matter who makes them or how long the warranty is on it. 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Online Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3022
Re: Carvex Dead
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2017, 10:51 AM »
My Bosch 1582 DVS (the first Bosch tool-less blade change jigsaw with dust collection)
is more than thirty years old.
  I have the non-dust collecting version of the Jigsaw, and yes, it's still going strong since the early 90's when it came out.  I bought a Carvex to supplement the Bosch, but I won't give up the Bosch jigsaw.... [smile]

I thought it came out in the '80's but you're probably right.

I have a Trion that I rarely use (the blade guides are a nuisance) so I skipped the Carvex. The Mafell is tempting...