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Author Topic: Domino Mortise is too narrow  (Read 3480 times)

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Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Domino Mortise is too narrow
« on: June 29, 2017, 01:48 PM »
Your Feedback will be appreciated.

This is an update from my "Zero Response" thread and it now deals with the actual problem I am experiencing with my DF500.  The mortises that the machine bores are too narrow for a stock domino.  As in a lot too narrow.  I have to trim the dominos with a block plane for it to fit in the mortise  (Without significant hammering).  As, such,I sent my machine in for repair.   I got it back after a couple weeks.  The problem is still there.  They provided a list of parts they replaced but there wasn't a write up of what they did or why my machine does what it does. I called service and Bret couldn't provide much info.  He thought it might be the bit but it happens on all bits.  I mostly use 5mm and it seems to be more sensitive.  I have a second 5mm bit and it does the same thing.

It's been doing this since I purchased the machine two years ago.  I've been putting up with it thinking it might be n normal.  Now I'm building quite a few cabinets and I am tired of shaving every domino.  This can't be right.....and at some point I am sure to slip and plane my finger.

To demonstrate the problem I made a video.  I'd like to see if this is normal.  Keep in mind I am using very soft pine in the video.  There is no way to get a "stock" domino into Oak or plywood without causing a lot of damage. 
Many thanks
Luke

« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 02:01 PM by iamnothim »
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline bdiemer

  • Posts: 189
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 02:09 PM »
I live on the great south bay ,Long Island. All my dominoes are swollen and require minor adaption,with sandpaper. Try a domino right out of the plastic.

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 02:11 PM »
I'm in dry Southern California.  The dominos are very new.
Also, I'd be sanding a long time before they would fit.  Hence the block plane
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Offline Distinctive Interiors

  • Posts: 277
  • Modern Kitchen Specialist
    • distinterior.com
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 02:23 PM »
All the domino slots that I have cut in solid timber with my DF500 are a tight fit in their respective holes. I certainly can't push them in or pull them out of their holes without the use of pliers. MDF or particle boards are a bit softer so are less of a tight fit.

I keep all my dominos in a Systainer with a couple of little bags of Silica. This keeps the moisture content down.

I mainly use the 4mm,5mm and 6mm cutters/dominos so I can't vouch for the 8mm or 10mm slots width.

Have you tried a fresh batch of dominos, just to be certain that its not your own dominos themselves that are causing the issue..?

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 02:27 PM »
Thanks for the post.

I too mostly use 5mm.  They are very fresh. They don't hang around long and this has been going on for 2 years.
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Offline drax

  • Posts: 35
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 02:49 PM »
Iamnothim, you can determine for definite if it's your machine or the dominos by measuring accurately the width of the slot with callipers or a rule etc then compare with another fog 500 owner the width. I won't have access to mine until next week unfortunately so can't help there.

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 02:53 PM »
The mortises are 17.25mm wide
The Dominos are 18.8mm wide
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Offline justaguy

  • Posts: 106
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 02:57 PM »
I think I see the holder for the bit assortment on your bench. Have you tried the other size bits and is the problem consistent with each size?

Sorry I left the edit window open for a while. I now see from later responses that you have tried the other bits.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 03:33 PM by justaguy »

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 03:00 PM »
It's all good!
Thanks
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Offline RobNJ

  • Posts: 154
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 03:01 PM »
Is the domino width including the ridges on the sides?  I always wind up planing or sanding the ridges away -- though never have have to go more than the small ridge.  Also, it's my standard procedure to throw the Dominos in the microwave for 25 seconds.  Even in the bone dry winter (my shop is in a heated basement) a significant amount of water is left in the bowl post microwave.  The dominos fit much more easily post a quick zap.

Online ear3

  • Posts: 3112
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 03:06 PM »
You got me curious so I plunged some 5mm mortises and measure between 18.4-18.5mm on the mortises.  Yours seems to be 1 mm too narrow.

The mortises are 17.25mm wide
The Dominos are 18.8mm wide
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 03:08 PM »
You got me curious so I plunged some 5mm mortises and measure between 18.4-18.5mm on the mortises.  Yours seems to be 1 mm too narrow.

The mortises are 17.25mm wide
The Dominos are 18.8mm wide

Great information !
Thanks

I also tried two different 5mm bits
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Offline hopper

  • Posts: 104
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 03:34 PM »
I know this is a band-aid fix but try putting a small shim type washer between the bit and bit holder where it threads on. this would make the bit slightly longer consequently making the mortise wider

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 04:31 PM »
The tool is at UPS on its way to Indiana
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Online ear3

  • Posts: 3112
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 04:59 PM »
That's the right move.  I would even flag @TylerC and have him give service a heads up to let them know this is the second time your unit is going in for the same problem, and that you have conferred with other Domino users to establish that it's a genuine issue, and not simply your imagining or misuse.


The tool is at UPS on its way to Indiana
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 881
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 05:03 PM »
That's the right move.  I would even flag @TylerC and have him give service a heads up to let them know this is the second time your unit is going in for the same problem, and that you have conferred with other Domino users to establish that it's a genuine issue, and not simply your imagining or misuse.


The tool is at UPS on its way to Indiana

Yes. I'll send this thread over to the service team. I'll send it to a few other folks internally. Honestly, I'm a bit beyond my depth on this one.

Offline daveg

  • Posts: 54
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 12:51 PM »
I've always had this problem (since my DF500 was new). The domino size and season don't seem to make much difference. I assumed it was by Festool's design to have a very tight fit for alignment purposes. However, I find it very inconvenient for doing dry fit tests before I glue up. In those situations, I use the block plane on the edges like you or I put the dominos in a drying box (foam insulation with a light bulb for heat).

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2017, 01:22 PM »
I've always had this problem (since my DF500 was new). The domino size and season don't seem to make much difference. I assumed it was by Festool's design to have a very tight fit for alignment purposes. However, I find it very inconvenient for doing dry fit tests before I glue up. In those situations, I use the block plane on the edges like you or I put the dominos in a drying box (foam insulation with a light bulb for heat).

Dave,
It's reassuring that someone else has experienced this problem.   It's very annoying and time consuming. I don't think a production  shop would put up with this.  We shouldn't have to go through these steps either.  It's very dangerous trimming a tiny domino in your fingers on a block plane, yet I've shaved hundreds without giving blood.

My video is with pine.  I should have used oak.  I don't think I could insert a stock domino using a hammer.  I haven't tried for years, I've just plane the dominos as a procedure.  I'll be sure to post the verdict.

Thanks for posting,

Luke
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

  • Posts: 277
  • Modern Kitchen Specialist
    • distinterior.com
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2017, 01:38 PM »
I measured my 5mm dominos today. Width was between 19.05mm to 19.12mm. I measured about 20 odd just to get an average size. All measurements were taken with a digital Vernier gauge.
I didn't have time to do a trial slot in some scrap...been busy with designs all day!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 01:40 PM by Distinctive Interiors »

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2017, 01:41 PM »
@Distinctive Interiors

That's very wide.
Thanks for thinking about me.
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Offline tjskinny

  • Posts: 67
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2017, 04:39 PM »
I just downloaded the Domino ebook

https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge/downloads#Magalogs

And this is what it stated under Domino mortise width selection:

DF 500
1 The standard width, corresponding exactly to the domino width: 13 mm plus the cutter diameter
2 The average mortise width, giving the domino some clear- ance (6 mm): 19 mm plus the cutter diameter
3 The largest mortise width, providing a lot of clearance (10 mm): 23 mm plus the cutter diameter

DF 700
1 The standard width for precise routing is: 13.5 mm plus the cutter diameter
2 The mortise width with clearance (3 mm) corresponds to: 16.5 mm plus the cutter diameter


As with some of the others experience, all the domino slots that I have cut in solid wood and plywood with my DF500 are a tight fit in their respective holes. I can't push them in or pull them out of their holes without the use of pliers.





Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1874
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2017, 10:16 PM »
Luke,

Any chance you are over tightening the bit?  I usually just hand tighten, and it will firm up as it spins. The other thing is that you might have a manufacturing defect. If there are too many threads on the shaft or the shaft is just slightly short, it would cause a slightly less-wide domi-hole.

Let us know what they come back with. Next time I am in Orange or LA, I will let you know. I will be in Mountain View next week for a few days, but that is a little hike!

Where is Elon on that tube of his?!?!?

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1671
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2017, 04:44 PM »
I certainly agree the Dominos themselves are a tight fit. However, I can almost always push them into the slot halfway without using a mallet and, if not, then a couple of passes over rough sandpaper does. I've never even thought of using a block plane. Summers in Illinois are almost always humid and I don't seem to have more trouble during summer than winter (although I do keep the humidity in my basement shop between 50% - 60% in summer.

I assume that, over the life of your Domino, you have purchased more than one batch of Dominos. If not, is it possible that the bag of Dominos you got was not up to spec (or that the tolerance of Festool specs is not so precise as to allow some batches to be just enough to large they don't seem to fit)?
Randy

Offline waterloomarc

  • Posts: 103
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2017, 10:16 PM »
I too always have to shave my dominos down in order to get them to fit. It's annoying but frankly I just thought it was the nature of the beast. I have to do it for all sizes as well. I will go measure my dominos and slots on Monday and see what I've got.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3076
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 09:53 AM »

And this is what it stated under Domino mortise width selection in their ebook:

DF 500
1 The standard width, corresponding exactly to the domino width: 13 mm plus the cutter diameter

DF 700
1 The standard width for precise routing is: 13.5 mm plus the cutter diameter


It's interesting to note that the 700 was designed from the git-go to cut a wider mortise than the 500. So it could also be interesting to cut #8 & #10 mortises with both a 500 and a 700 and compare the fit with the same Domino.

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2017, 10:52 AM »
Thanks to everyone for relating your experiences, and providing ideas.
The difference between the mortise width and a 5mm Domino width is 1.55mm
Doesn't sound like a lot but it is.  Even on soft wood they won't go in without pliers or a mallet and the Mortise will be damaged.  The the tenon must be shaved. On oak, cherry, or plywood. It just can't be done with a mallet or pliers.  You'd  smash your finger with the mallet. A  total mess. 1mm or so must be removed and sandpaper would take a long time.  Believe me if I didn't have to pull a Domino down the sole of a block plane with my thumb and index finger I wouldn't.  Two years without blood but it's just a matter of time.
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1839
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2017, 12:36 PM »
Please let us know what the repair people find when you get the unit back.
Birdhunter

Offline Kevin W.

  • Posts: 4
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2017, 12:55 PM »
Definately keep us posted, I hope you get this traightened out!

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 475
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2017, 03:07 PM »
Thanks to everyone for relating your experiences, and providing ideas.
The difference between the mortise width and a 5mm Domino width is 1.55mm
Doesn't sound like a lot but it is.  Even on soft wood they won't go in without pliers or a mallet and the Mortise will be damaged.  The the tenon must be shaved. On oak, cherry, or plywood. It just can't be done with a mallet or pliers.  You'd  smash your finger with the mallet. A  total mess. 1mm or so must be removed and sandpaper would take a long time.  Believe me if I didn't have to pull a Domino down the sole of a block plane with my thumb and index finger I wouldn't.  Two years without blood but it's just a matter of time.

A simple jig would reduce the chance of flaying your finger.  I've made a couple for trimming them to length.

Online ear3

  • Posts: 3112
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2017, 03:16 PM »
But that would take all the dangerous fun out of it.

Thanks to everyone for relating your experiences, and providing ideas.
The difference between the mortise width and a 5mm Domino width is 1.55mm
Doesn't sound like a lot but it is.  Even on soft wood they won't go in without pliers or a mallet and the Mortise will be damaged.  The the tenon must be shaved. On oak, cherry, or plywood. It just can't be done with a mallet or pliers.  You'd  smash your finger with the mallet. A  total mess. 1mm or so must be removed and sandpaper would take a long time.  Believe me if I didn't have to pull a Domino down the sole of a block plane with my thumb and index finger I wouldn't.  Two years without blood but it's just a matter of time.

A simple jig would reduce the chance of flaying your finger.  I've made a couple for trimming them to length.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2017, 03:22 PM »
Still no box from UPS. .... I'll keep y'all posted. 
I am far too impatient to build jigs (except for a shooting board).  I think about making them then I figure out how to spend 4x time on the task without one.   It's weird I lack the vision.
I really should make some Fine Woodworking jigs.
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online ear3

  • Posts: 3112
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2017, 03:47 PM »
Speaking of which, I have coming in the mail this book that was recommended to me: Robert Wearing, "Making Woodwork Aids & Devices"

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1861081294/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Still no box from UPS. .... I'll keep y'all posted. 
I am far too impatient to build jigs (except for a shooting board).  I think about making them then I figure out how to spend 4x time on the task without one.   It's weird I lack the vision.
I really should make some Fine Woodworking jigs.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2017, 04:03 PM »
Speaking of which, I have coming in the mail this book that was recommended to me: Robert Wearing, "Making Woodwork Aids & Devices"

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1861081294/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Way Cool!  thanks


Still no box from UPS. .... I'll keep y'all posted. 
I am far too impatient to build jigs (except for a shooting board).  I think about making them then I figure out how to spend 4x time on the task without one.   It's weird I lack the vision.
I really should make some Fine Woodworking jigs.
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2017, 01:35 PM »
Update
No Box
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline iamnothim

  • Posts: 1409
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 12:14 PM »
News Flash
I called Festool Repair.
Brett said they are waiting on a part to arrive from Germany and they should have it the first part of next week.

I kept my composure during the call.

My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 1839
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Domino Mortise is too narrow
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 05:38 PM »
Thanks for the update.
Birdhunter