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Author Topic: Kapex is DEAD  (Read 48047 times)

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Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Kapex is DEAD
« on: September 11, 2016, 08:47 AM »
After 3 years and 3 months of light use my Kapex has die. Not what I expected from a premium tool and large price tag. I'll be calling service to get a rough estimate. I guess a shipping cost also and hope for the best. If the numbers don't add up I guess it's a new saw and I can tell you what saw it won't be...

Sad day when the most expensive saw on site dies first. Egg on my face!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2016, 12:04 PM »
On the one hand you never see people making a post to say their Kapex is working fine and lots of them, probably massively more than break down, last a long time compared to those that break. So now with that stating the obvious defence out of the way...

It must be statistically impossible that there isn't a problem with the Kapex saws. The sheer number of post in the last year prove that it must by law of averages be a big problem. It's one of Festool's most expensive tools and yet you hear about it breaking down on a weekly basis. The only way this logic could be wrong is if the cheaper tools that Festool sell more of are breaking down just as often, but people don't post about it.

When are Festool going to face up and do the decent thing and fix/recall them? I really would like to buy a Kapex, but not until there's an official admission and rectification of the faults!

Offline rjh

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2016, 12:16 PM »
On the one hand you never see people making a post to say their Kapex is working fine and lots of them, probably massively more than break down, last a long time compared to those that break. So now with that stating the obvious defence out of the way...

It must be statistically impossible that there isn't a problem with the Kapex saws. The sheer number of post in the last year prove that it must by law of averages be a big problem. It's one of Festool's most expensive tools and yet you hear about it breaking down on a weekly basis. The only way this logic could be wrong is if the cheaper tools that Festool sell more of are breaking down just as often, but people don't post about it.

When are Festool going to face up and do the decent thing and fix/recall them? I really would like to buy a Kapex, but not until there's an official admission and rectification of the faults!

This speaks my mind. As a person just getting into a large amount of festool, I am very concerned by these quality reports.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2016, 01:11 PM »
As mainly a hobbyist whose saw gets relatively light use and is out of warranty, it's hard not to be concerned hearing these failures.  I too hope Festool comes up with a solution for existing customers. 
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2016, 02:00 PM »
I've been absent from the forums for a while, what is FESTOOL's current position on this? 
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Coosbay Dave

  • Posts: 2
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 02:13 PM »
Go through the process.  Contact Festool, get their shipping box and packing materials, ship the thing and expect a turnaround that's reasonable (couple of weeks).  THEN post anything negative that happens.  You got an expensive tool, it will be expensive to fix.  Afterward, you will still have an expensive tool.  Isn't that what you wanted when you began with Festool?

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1326
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 02:58 PM »
Go through the process.  Contact Festool, get their shipping box and packing materials, ship the thing and expect a turnaround that's reasonable (couple of weeks).  THEN post anything negative that happens.  You got an expensive tool, it will be expensive to fix.  Afterward, you will still have an expensive tool.  Isn't that what you wanted when you began with Festool?

Welcome to the FOG

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3288
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 03:07 PM »
Go through the process.  Contact Festool, get their shipping box and packing materials, ship the thing and expect a turnaround that's reasonable (couple of weeks).  THEN post anything negative that happens.  You got an expensive tool, it will be expensive to fix.  Afterward, you will still have an expensive tool.  Isn't that what you wanted when you began with Festool?

I buy Festool based on the old saying that you get what you pay for.
I certainly don't buy just for the sake of owning an expensive tool.

Hoping that the old saying is true I'd expect an expensive high quality tool
that is lightly used to never break down.

On the other hand, I thought that heavy use of a Festool sander to the point of bearing failure would be economical in the long run because it would be "worth fixing". I thought because the price of the tool was so high (relative to other makes) the cost of repair would be a small fraction of the cost of replacement. I was wrong in the case of my old ES 125 E. The estimate was over $100 to replace one bearing when a new tool only cost about $60 more.

I've used a Kapex and it's a really fine saw but I'm not willing to risk that much money to own one knowing that the most expensive kind of failure is not so uncommon.

Offline Festoolfootstool

  • Posts: 2076
  • The trouble with Bob is its all about Bob
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 04:10 PM »
Go through the process.  Contact Festool, get their shipping box and packing materials, ship the thing and expect a turnaround that's reasonable (couple of weeks).  THEN post anything negative that happens.  You got an expensive tool, it will be expensive to fix.  Afterward, you will still have an expensive tool.  Isn't that what you wanted when you began with Festool?

Welcome to the FOG
Interesting for a first post I doubt you will post again in the future.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 285
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 04:23 PM »
After reading about too many failures with the Kapex I went with a Bosch Axial Glide. Being a hobbiest the price was too steep for a saw that seems somewhat problematic.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 09:29 PM »
I know I buy Festool for the quality of tool. I fell in love with their sander first and now own a large number of their tools. I only had one vac in for service with warranty which was a great experience with a four day turn around. Just sad the most expensive tool is the one with the most problems. I had a Makita for 7 years and sold it to a friend when I purchased my Kapex 3 years ago. The Makita is still going strong with no issues today. The kapex seems like a major problem that pops up every few months.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 360
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 09:56 PM »
will this be discussed at the fraternity party slash if you attend only you can buy the reconditioned tools event.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2016, 12:16 AM »
The kapex seems like a major problem that pops up every few months.

Well, let's just say these oem German armature short comings have resurfaced every month...for at least the last 24 months, so it's probably time for Christian (if he really does gives a damm, and more importantly, if he is actually aware of the daily issues, and not just hawking the Festool mantra) to revisit, who should be the new oem armature/motor supplier and who should be written off as "last weeks left over bad news."

In a small to medium sized company the CEO/President can have a profound impact on the actions of his/her employees through empowerment, in a large company (think 3M, GM, Ford...) not so much. I would consider Festool to be hugely influenced by their customer feedback and thus they can react accordingly...they just have not reacted as they should yet...however, their silence tells a tale and is deafening.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:27 AM by Cheese »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5636
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2016, 02:11 AM »
I really would like to buy a Kapex, but not until there's an official admission and rectification of the faults!

After reading about too many failures with the Kapex I went with a Bosch Axial Glide.

I too contemplated buying a Kapex, but the high number of failures mentioned here on the FOG put me off. That was 4 or 5 years ago, and I can safely say that last year's posts surely haven't changed my mind yet. It's unbelievable Festool can't seem to address this issue.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6594
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 02:41 AM »
I've been absent from the forums for a while, what is FESTOOL's current position on this?

I think this I posted abit ago might help.  Although my origional post I edited because I went on a little and I need to rewrite it. 
Basically my first post was. 
Kapex burnt out for second time. First time just past 3 year warranty then had it repaired cost me alot  and that lasted another 3 years and burnt out again.  Repair costs and delay with out a kapex wasnt worth it so the kapex has gone into a skip. 
I went on about other festool tools aswell mainly happy things.

I found other posts on Fog about people having kapex failure but they didnt get much notice so I decided to post about my kapex failure.  I gave festool benefit of the doubt when my kapex failed the first time and never posted it on fog but second time taking the ....! 

Here is the link
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/the-life-span/

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Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3616
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2016, 03:38 AM »
A year or so ago I saw a copy of the Kapex @ Sears. Of course it was a whole lot cheaper and probably no where near as acurate. Of course it happened to have been "made in China." I was not interested.  Makita has a SCMS that is made something on the idea of Kapex with a double slide arrangement so it does not take up so much space in back of the saw.  I have not looked at that saw close up, but I think it is only a matter of time before saws are out there that will be just as accurate, just as light weight, and even take as little space as the Kapex.  If Festoy does not address the issue of burnout soon .........................!
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 02:18 PM »
 [eek]It's going to cost between $500 and $900 to repair plus shipping!  Speechless .....

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 129
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2016, 02:30 PM »
Wow, that is hard to swallow. I was hoping that Festool was taking care of things behind the scenes but I guess I am not so sure now.

I have a Kapex that gets used occasionally and now I wish i hadn't sold off my Makita! :(  Feels like a ticking clock.

BTW, are the failures recent? Kapex has been around for a while, why are the failures hitting some sort of crescendo now?

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 320
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 02:35 PM »
I have been using miter saws to make a living for over 40 years and until the Kapex I had not heard of a saw armature burning out! Bearings yes, brushes sure, switches etc.

I am very surprised Festool has not stepped up to the plate on this issue.

Gerry
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Carquest

  • Posts: 31
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 02:54 PM »
Will definitely keep this diy guy from buying a Kapex with all the motor issues I've seen on this forum. Is it only an issue with the 110v versions of this saw?

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2016, 03:27 PM »
[eek]It's going to cost between $500 and $900 to repair plus shipping!  Speechless .....


Taking a screen shot of this, waiting for it to get deleted...

FESTOOL is saying "you should have bought a dewalt in the first place and we will punish you again"...

helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2016, 04:19 PM »
...
I am very surprised Festool has not stepped up to the plate on this issue.
...

Why does ^that^ surprise you?
What evidence would lead us to believe that they would "step up"?

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 576
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2016, 05:34 PM »
My expectations for this thread:

- Silence until it gets too inflammatory.
- A mod saying to keep it civil.
- People getting worked up until an employee comments.
- Everyone jumps in to applaud festool for ther customer service.
- Thread fades into obscurity with no resolution.


- Next kapex death thread gets started in another month.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 543
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2016, 06:23 PM »
Hi!

@Johncarlo

You might want to take part in the Kapex-Survey:

We have heard back from the Festool HQ in Germany about this topic. They have taken a deeper look into the number of repairs and the repair causes. All Kapex-related comments on the FOG were also reviewed.

The findings:
While the number of repairs on the Kapex is slightly higher than expected, it is not a systematic problem. Roughly a third of the repairs are related to the motor, and we are currently looking into the root causes. Despite the fact that this is not an unusual concentration, we take this topic very serious because we understand the trouble every non-functioning tool causes for our customers.

Right now it seems the failures are related to a specific usage pattern (rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood opposed to slower cuts in big beams). To verify this, we would like to ask you for your help.

Here is how you can help: If you have experienced a motor burnout or feel the Kapex has served you less than a fair amount of time, please send an email to kapex@festool.com with the following information:
  • Your contact information (name, e-mail, phone number)
  • What type of work do you mostly use your Kapex for? The more information you can provide, the better. We are especially interested to find out what type of material you are cutting, understand what type of cuts you are mainly doing (rapid cuts in thin material oo more big beams etc.), and how often you are using your saw.
  • Information on the type of failure and what has been done to fix the failure (repairs after what time etc.)
  • Do you use a Kapex 110/120 volt model or a 220/240 volt model?
  • Purchase date or machine numbers if available

We appreciate you are taking the time to send us this information. It will help to better understand what leads to these issues.

--

On the subject, even though I have no dog in this fight:

>>I<< do believe when Festool says they are working on this and >>I<< do believe when they say the overall number of broken/burned out Kapex saws is not significantly higher/ more alerting than those of other tools, statistically speaking / by percentage.

>>I<< also think you can't blame Festool for not discussing and going into all details of this "issue" online - their forum or not.

However >>I<< think that this is an issue that rather sooner than later needs to be addressed a little more in depth, and maybe by someone a little higher up in the food chain ;) , think CEO. That would not only be a strong signal to potential buyers who read/follow the FOG but would also leave those who have (or had) issues with their Kapex knowing that this is still on the table and being looked into - besides the running survey.

>>I<< understand that it might not look too nice, but making the survey a sticky on this board would be a good start.

IMHO. Just my two cents. YMMV.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2016, 06:32 PM »
@rizzoa13

You are only partially correct at this point.  I will only point out that ALL THREADS should remain civil.

Regarding this thread - it is civil at this point.

Regarding the content of this thread - let it roll and continue to have no reason to be closed.

Peter

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 320
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2016, 07:39 PM »
...
I am very surprised Festool has not stepped up to the plate on this issue.
...

Why does ^that^ surprise you?
What evidence would lead us to believe that they would "step up"?

I guess I am just a sucker for a good Slogan "built to last" [embarassed]
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2016, 11:05 PM »
Thanks Six Point! I'll definitely send that out.

Funny, a third of all repairs sounds like a problem to me. If it was a safety issue we would have a recall but not at 33%?? When you buy the Ferrari of saws with the big motor it should cut everyday for ten years. I baby it with new blades and it's only used to cut five days out of the month.

I have no problem getting my Kapex fixed if I knew the issue was resolved. I love the saw. But to pay that amount only for it to happen again, no thanks! Come on Festool step up to the plate with a fix so I can get my Kapex back in business.





Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2016, 11:34 PM »
@Johncarlo, I feel for you. However, I have to disagree with you when you state that the Kapex should last for 10 years...for a DIY account it should last for 20+ years.

I have a  Kapex, but I still keep a Milwaukee chop saw and a Milwaukee slider downstairs with Forrest blades attached just in case the Kapex takes a crap. How sad is that? They are both over 15 years old and have cut aluminum, wood and brick, yet I hold on to them to back up a 3 year old Kapex.

So who's the fool...I guess it's me. I think I'll talk with the Festool rep tomorrow.

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2016, 12:10 AM »
Thanks Six Point! I'll definitely send that out.

Funny, a third of all repairs sounds like a problem to me. If it was a safety issue we would have a recall but not at 33%?? When you buy the Ferrari of saws with the big motor it should cut everyday for ten years. I baby it with new blades and it's only used to cut five days out of the month.

I have no problem getting my Kapex fixed if I knew the issue was resolved. I love the saw. But to pay that amount only for it to happen again, no thanks! Come on Festool step up to the plate with a fix so I can get my Kapex back in business.


Thats a great idea. If one fails, don't fix it, let them sit in the shed and the reputation solidfy.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2630
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2016, 12:19 AM »
Well did anyone else notice this shot inside the Festool Workshop in a video posted on the Thread - http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/who's-going-to-the-festool-connect-2016/msg475518/#msg475518.



Sure struck me as interesting.

Now I realise that a Kapex is one of the largest Festools space wise, and sure on another wall there might stacks of ROTEXs awaiting repair, and a lot of us are now (over?) sensitive to this issue following the number of Threads regarding Kapex reliability.

But it still struck me as an interesting shot.

As a testament to the over all reliability provided by a majority of  Festool's products, I also noted that the workshop itself appeared to be quite small.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 12:33 AM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2016, 12:23 AM »
I would love to have a Kapex but to replace my 40 year old ELU flip saw, which spews sawdust everywhere even when connected to a CT, with something that might let the smoke out and stop is a no brainer.

When I purchased the ELU 40 years ago it was the equivalent of many times the price of todays Kapex but except for replacing the drive belt and a plastic blade guard it just keeps on going - like a Kapex should.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2016, 12:33 AM »
Yay @Untidy Shop, I did notice that group of Kapexes that we would refer to WIP....work in process.

Don't know if those are new saws going through QA or if they're old saws going through refurb...let's hope it's not the latter. [crying]

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2016, 12:35 AM »
I would love to have a Kapex but to replace my 40 year old ELU flip saw, which spews sawdust everywhere even when connected to a CT, with something that might let the smoke out and stop is a no brainer.

When I purchased the ELU 40 years ago it was the equivalent of many times the price of todays Kapex but except for replacing the drive belt and a plastic blade guard it just keeps on going - like a Kapex should.


Could you post a photo of this old dog? I've never seen the mythical "elu" in its environment. 
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2016, 01:09 AM »
For the life of me, I just can't understand how much more denial Festool can sustain before there is a class action suit brought before them. Trashing $200 sanders is one thing (kind of like Dixie   cups), trashing $1500 chop saws is another issue all together.  In an earlier post, I noted that upper management was aware of the situation but was undecided as to how to rectify the issue.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2016, 04:35 AM »
As long as the suckers keep lining up to buy the stuff , what incentive does big business have to dip into their pockets to fix a non problem ?

This will never reach a "class action" , not enough $$$ involved.

CEO doesn't really care about the punters, he was only going through the motions while doing damage control. This pacifies the weak minded suckers who can say " see, the big guy came on here to really make a difference".  Only cost a few minutes of his time.

What everyone should REALLY be concerned about is corporate's statement that the Kapex has no larger a failure rate then their other offerings. Based on the amount of failures mentioned here; they are either obfuscating the reality to limit their exposure

-or-

and this is a more troubling conclusion : their tools really are of no better quality then the competition and quite possibly worse. At a 50-100% price premimum this is extremely unnerving.

If correct, we're paying a big premimum for a few features that others don't have (and some do ) and inclusion into "the club" - not quality which many around here love to wax on about.

I remember the early Festo and Tooltechnic days when the stuff was very competitively priced in comparison to the competition.   I even remember the routers costing less ( at list price anyway) than a comparable Bosch.   If quality issues ( even perceived ones ) happened on tools with costs similar to the comp. I think most people would grant you a pass.  It seems curious that now the market has grown tenfold and the pricing scheme basically doubled the comp. that there is even a hint of quality issues with these tools - let alone the most expensive one in the lineup.

I wonder if the Ryobi fanboys complain on their website that those miter saws consistently fail shortly after the warranty runs out ?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2016, 06:26 AM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

Just passing that info along.

Peter


Offline glass1

  • Posts: 360
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2016, 06:40 AM »
Apparently using the kapex is considered abuse.

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 185
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2016, 06:51 AM »
My Kapex gets very light use and it just had its 1st birthday.

I'm very worried.

I hope the Festool executive team isn't taking pointers from the Volkswagen executive team.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 360
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2016, 06:53 AM »
on a side note milwaukee has adopted the same warranty service as festool albeit 5 years on tools and 3 on batteries. I have had 1 fuel battery and 1 fuel drill fail. Simply go on milwaukee website fill out e form with serial number, than print out shipping label and return tool. About one week turnaround at no charge, with no registration and no receipt needed. Festool pushed the market in the usa but quality has dipped with the 55 recall, failed first carvex, lower quality plastic on systainers and vaccuums, 110 router loose plunge and the burned up kapex. No science needed i work with people who use tools every day on jobsites not wealthy hobbyists..... this is the general opinion in the trenches. Festool  you can keep your head in the sand but as the other manufacturers catch up and mafell swoops in from the top your days could be short.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2016, 07:13 AM »
Could you post a photo of this old dog? I've never seen the mythical "elu" in its environment.

One of the reasons for its longevity could be the fact that it uses an induction motor with a belt drive.

This is the only configuration that I currently use as I have 2 other saw benches. I added the longer fence with a scale and stop to make life easier.

There is a sliding table attachment that is used when the saw is flipped over to become a regular table saw. The attachments are modular and can be expanded to handle an 8x4 sheet but the TS55 with rails is a much more accurate and easier way to handle large sheets.



Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7323
  • Remodeling Contractor
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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2016, 08:38 AM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

Just passing that info along.

Peter

Those saws will likely all get the preemptive armature fix.  This seems odd to do as "standard practice" since there is no motor problem...  I like Festool as much as the next guy, but this Kapex issue does tarnish the brand a bit.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3288
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2016, 09:06 AM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.

Just passing that info along.

Peter

Those saws will likely all get the preemptive armature fix.  This seems odd to do as "standard practice" since there is no motor problem...  I like Festool as much as the next guy, but this Kapex issue does tarnish the brand a bit.   

Is this a "thing"? They're not simply replacing armatures with identical armatures are they?

Festool should extend the warranty on the Kapex until they can resolve whether there is in fact a problem, and ultimately fix it if there is.

I have to admit that the existence of this forum allows the the convenient accumulation of reports of problems while there is no similar facility for other manufactures. This may just be the appearance of problem when statistically it is no different than other manufacturers saws. But, it sure seems like a problem and regrettably it's kept me from buying a Kapex.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2016, 10:40 AM »
All I know for sure is I won't be buying a Kapex. Was almost gonna a while back but just wasn't seeing the benefits of the extra price and back then was all the problems of the fence and deck not being flat which made the buy a craps shoot even then.
+1

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2362
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2016, 11:30 AM »
Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see.  When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2016, 12:26 PM »
If there is a problem with the armature on some saws and the affected saws are known by manufacture date or serial, recall those saws for repair prior to burn out and provide the repair for free on warrantied saws or even for a nominal fee (NOT $900) for out of warranty saws.  Reimburse the people who have paid hundreds of dollars in excess for repairs due to this problem. 

If there is a problem with the armature on some saws and the affected saws are not known, provide the repair for free or for a nominal fee when the saw is sent in after burning out.  Reimburse the people who have paid hundreds of dollars in excess for repairs due to this problem. 

If there is a problem with the armature on ALL saws such that all saws will fail given a particular usage pattern or circumstance, this is a design defect and your customers deserve acknowledgment of the issue and options for resolution. 

I can't understand why some kind of resolution cannot be offered by a company like Festool which markets and prides itself on both the supposed quality of its tools and the service it provides.  Such a program would go so far in reassuring future purchasers of the Kapex, any Kapex II, or larger Festools in general.  And it would reassure those of us who are starting to feel our Kapex's are ticking time bombs.  This issue, even if being blown out of proportion by the internet echo chamber, is starting to speak volumes about the company.  Either do that, or start dropping the price of your tools every April 1 because customers who pay for premium expect premium. 
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7323
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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2016, 12:43 PM »
Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3288
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2016, 01:58 PM »
Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...

I have 2 vacs and no Kapex.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 01:59 PM »
Untidy - I took the tour.  Yes, that was the 'Kapex repair area' in their repair room.  They have a similar area for vacs, a similar area for saws, and a similar area for drills that I saw.  Kapex looked no more 'stacked' than the other ones.  I think there were maybe 8 saws on the shelf under repair.  Similar number of vacs that I could see. When you consider how many tools Festool sells, particularly when you see their warehouse with pallet stacks that go up at least 50 feet in the air, you get the idea they are operating at significant scale in the US.

I bet Festool sells 20 vacs for every one Kapex...

I have 2 vacs and no Kapex.

I have no vacs and one Kapex.  lol
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 576
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2016, 04:50 PM »
With a repair turn around of 2 days why are there 8 kapexi, (you like that), in the shop? It's a $1500 miter saw I'd bet my life savings they don't sell a ton of them in the grand scheme of things. So why are there 8 there at a given time?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2016, 05:05 PM »
With a repair turn around of 2 days why are there 8 kapexi, (you like that), in the shop? It's a $1500 miter saw I'd bet my life savings they don't sell a ton of them in the grand scheme of things. So why are there 8 there at a given time?


You're putting a spotlight on the fact that there are a lot of abusers.

Offline Trevin

  • Posts: 78
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2016, 05:31 PM »
I almost have the money saved for a Kapex but I think I will now keep my Dewalt for now and invest in a new bandsaw.  Now I have to decide which bandsaw I want???  Thanks Festool.... [blink]
Festool: MFT3 (x2), OF1010, OF1400, LR32, Domino DF500, Domino XL DF700, Kapex KS120, TS-75, Carvex 420, CXS, C-18, Vecturo OS 400, DTS 400, Pro 5, Rotex 125, VAC-PMP, VAC-SYS-1, VAC-SYS-2, CT-26 (x2), CT-SYS, SYS Light DUO, SYS-ROCK
Other: Minmax FS41, Sawstop PCS (3HP, 52"), Laguna BX14, Jet 17" Drill Press, Rikon 70-220VSR Lathe, Incra LS Router Station, Laguna P/Flux 3 Dust Collector

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 768
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2016, 05:56 PM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.
(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2016, 06:01 PM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.
(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 299
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2016, 06:08 PM »
I would love to have a Kapex but to replace my 40 year old ELU flip saw, which spews sawdust everywhere even when connected to a CT, with something that might let the smoke out and stop is a no brainer.

When I purchased the ELU 40 years ago it was the equivalent of many times the price of todays Kapex but except for replacing the drive belt and a plastic blade guard it just keeps on going - like a Kapex should.

The ELu flip saws, as well as some other Elu tool designs, are still being sold in some markets under the Dewalt brand. The Dewalt version of the Elu flip saw is Dewalt model DW743N. It's possible Dewalt has tweaked some areas if the saw over the years, but otherwise it should mostly be the same design. Some of the Dewalt branded Elu tools were even being made with the same molds as the original Elu tools.

I'm not sure hoe much the original Elu saws sold for when they came out. Thr current Dewalt model has a list retail price of £900 and an Amazon.uk price of £755. The Amazon price for the Festool Kapex £904 with a list retail of £1,163.


Offline justinh

  • Posts: 165
    • Profiled Edge Woodworks
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2016, 06:33 PM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.
(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Repetitive cuts in thin material describes almost every cut a trim carpenter makes.

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 738
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2016, 06:41 PM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.
(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Would be nice if we could even get an example of what lightweight repetitive cutting looks like...as far as how fast the starts and stops would have to be to cause problems.  If it's the kind of thing where you could avoid problems by knowing the saw a bit better and incorporating workflow practices (eg keeping the blade down while it stops spinning to avoid projectiles), I'm sure many Kapex owners would like to know about it.
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 129
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2016, 06:49 PM »
good point about sharing information on what might potentially avoid this issue.

wondering if anything related to this was shared/discussed during the festool connect event? especially during kapex demonstrations, etc.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2016, 09:52 PM »
By the way, while I was in Lebanon I asked about those Kapexes on the shelf shown in that image.  They were not there due to motor issues.  They were there due to severe abuse by the owners.
(emphasis mine)

Could we get some information what is considered 'severe abuse' in that context?

I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Like having a car that's only happy at 35mph on sunny days.

Would be nice if we could even get an example of what lightweight repetitive cutting looks like...as far as how fast the starts and stops would have to be to cause problems.  If it's the kind of thing where you could avoid problems by knowing the saw a bit better and incorporating workflow practices (eg keeping the blade down while it stops spinning to avoid projectiles), I'm sure many Kapex owners would like to know about it.


I read a Festool reps comment a while back hinting that cutting thick "timbers" would be more suitable for the Kapex than thin repetative cuts .  I thought the same thing " what carpenter doesn't make repetative cut in thin material" ???

I've also been on job sites in the UK and Germany and the floor guys, the kitchen fitters, the tounge and groove ceiling guys , and tons of others are all making the same repetative cuts in thin material that you guys in the USA do.  I have seen no mention from Festool in any market that the Kapex is geared to "timber framers" .  I know a few (Timber framers) in the USA, and they'd laugh you off the job if you broke out a mitersaw to construct a frame - and a 10" one to boot !

Time to eat some crow and some dough, and acknowledge that the Kapex 110v in its current specification is not suited for carpentry work - which IS REPETATIVE CUTTING THIN MATERIAL in the USA.

p.s - I have three vacs and no Kapex for those trying keeping score. And, I second the comment on the plastic becoming less good. The stuff on my ct22s is much tougher than the 26. May be the same stuff, but it appears thinner , which translates to more breakage.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 768
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2016, 10:57 PM »
I think Festool previously said the failures might be from repeated fast cuts in thin stock. So basically the Kapex can't be abused, nor can it do lightweight repetitive work.

Not that long ago I use my EB 120 to cut 2x20cm larch boards for a project (roughly 180 cuts), took less than 1/2h.
Didn't remember to smell anything odd, or that it felt strangely hot when turning off the lasers (switch is on the motor casing) after being done.

But a cut through such boards takes a moment with the machine running and the highest amperage the motor draws is while starting up (especially on the 110V version since it draws double the A of my 230V one) so when thinking about 'frequent starts with short runtimes' I come to heat accumulation in the motor since it can only vent itself effectively while running.

There dosn't seem to be reports of 230V versions burning up in numbers (or I missed them), so the higher amperage load on the 110V ones could be the reason for the reports on these (or the 230V users work with bigger stock or simply slower, both unlikely).

Other theory (without having seen the insides of dead ones, but I think we would have heard about it should it be correct, so more unlikely): the ones with the problem could have been used in a dust-laden environment (resin rich wood would help) => dust glued itself into the ventilation channels of the motor => reduced airflow => overheat of the field packet => meltdown.

Would be helpful if the ones whos Kapex died could inform us about their useage pattern in regards to frequency of starts, runtimes per cut and environment - maybe there is a visible a pattern to emerge.

I'm certain that Festool is interested in offering a solution should it be possible to pinpoint the problem, even if it would be a simple temperature sensor that prevents overheating (like in the CT-SYS).

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2016, 11:11 PM »
If it is burning out because of overheating then a simple temperature sensor that cuts the power when it gets too hot, like in the TS55, would solve the problem.  [big grin]

But it could be that Festool had that and found that the saw stops way too often, and for too long, to be of any use as a saw so they released it without any thermal protection.  [eek]

Offline Peter Durand

  • Posts: 190
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2016, 12:00 AM »
I have had my Kapex for a number of years. Works well. BUT, it has been my practice to get it running to full speed before lowering it to the wood. And not rush the cut. Thick, or in my case mostly thin. I remember reading somewhere that that is the proper way to treat these motors (electronic controlled).

A while ago I had a  carpenter doing some work in my home. He was about to do some miter cuts on 2X4s and other thin stock outside on some sawhorses.I told him he could use my "miter saw" in the shop...save setting up etc. He was delighted. So the wood was set against the fence and he proceeded to grab the trigger and start the saw whilst lowering it on to the wood. The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Needless to say I cut the rest of the wood.

I know people have said they baby their Kapex, but I wonder if  technique might be a factor.

BTW, after reading this thread, I also am somewhat anxious about the longevity of my expensive saw.

Cheers,

Peter

 

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Offline mkasdin

  • Posts: 118
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2016, 12:22 AM »
I pretty much do the same. I have a crappy yellow miter saw I got on sale for $200 I replaced it with a better blade. I typically pull the trigger and lower the blade to the wood so it just touches the scribed pencil line. Then I alter the position if necessary check for fingers away from the blade and gently lower the blade into the cut. With lack of a laser this is how I've trained myself. Sounds like I'm a good candidate for a kapex

Offline rjh

  • Posts: 24
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2016, 02:34 AM »
Can we hear from a few users who's Kapex is still going strong after 4 or more years?

Offline jools

  • Posts: 258
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2016, 03:25 AM »
240v 3+ years old. UG stand and wings.  Don't baby mine. Travels in the van every day. Cuts every thing from 2x10 treated to glass bead. It's been soaked by rain twice and even been ejected out the van doors and tumbled down the road when the van was totalled and was still square. Lost paint but that's about it most worn off by storing the wings on the cart in transit. Have made zero clearance insert and have a 6mm ply sacrificial fence which is held on with double sided tape which gets moved in until too short. Takes 5minutes to make another. Always bring blade upto speed before cut to get extraction upto speed. Have a 36mm x 1.2m hose on a midi. Use a cheap blade for framing stuff and reclaim. Good blade for finish work. It's made a huge difference to on site accuracy and work flow and easy to move about, and as far as I'm concerned has already paid for itself.
Just my experience with the Kapex

I had a Makita before. Heavy on its own to carry, then get the stand, then jury rig some home made wings. After banging about in the van it wore in the headstock and would rust at the nearest sign of moisture. Always needed squaring up. It was hard to adjust or make repeatable cuts. I've sold it
Just my experience with the makita
It started with one little sander

Offline Eagles21

  • Posts: 25
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2016, 01:28 PM »
Had my Kapex (240v) for about 18 months and I treat all my tools carefully. They are how I earn my living so want them to last.
99% of the cuts I do is in small material such as architraves, kitchen cornice etc, skirting and occasionally 4x2. However my saw is about to go back to Festool for the second time. It had a new motor in July as it suddenly went up in smoke and now it keeps running slow as the thermal protection cuts in. It didn't do this on the previous motor but it is now stopping me from working as I keep having to wait for it to cool sufficiently.
I do like the saw and most of my kit is festool but I do worry about when the warranty expires 😮.
If it goes bang out of warranty I will not replace it with another unless Festool make some serious changes to it.

Offline TomE

  • Posts: 131
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2016, 02:39 PM »
Can we hear from a few users who's Kapex is still going strong after 4 or more years?
Yeah, what do you want to know? Kapex at 6 years, I'm a trim carpenter, kitchen fitter, remodeler, have knocked together cabinets and a staircase now and again. I have several other 'chop saws' which are handled in similar manner.

Do I let the saw get up to speed before cutting? Almost all the time, particularly when the vac is connected. Why, because it cuts better and allows air flow to get going to the vac. There might be a time or two I'll flick the saw on and jamb it into some shim stock or something but seldom is it done.
 
Just because there is a trigger and the stock is 'right there', doesn't mean that the saw should be treated any different than say a table saw.... imagine being able to jam a board into the blade not yet at full speed on that table saw.

Do I let the saw stop after full cut is done? A lot of times, usually when the chance of kickback or flinging of cut-offs is possible.

Do I do repetitive cuts on thin materials.... all the time, sometimes the vac doesn't have time to shut down before the next cut, still take it up to full speed.

Do I throw just anything on the Kapex to cut, nope just the trims and fitting stocks, framing stuff and the like goes to my other saws.
Not because I don't think the Kapex can't handle it but because the tolerances needed for framing are not as close and the blades on those saws are more aggressive.

Do I use the variable speed controller? Can't really think of a time when I have, stays full go. Don't understand the usefulness of the option when the saw is already a little under powered. I just slow the feed rate on cuts that might require some finesse

Lasers get used almost all of the time when ambient lighting allows.

Do I 'train' others on how to use the tools, yes.... if they don't apply that training they don't get to use my gear.

Do I think this 'burn out ' problem exists... yes and it sucks for those who go through it and if my unit blows up there will not be another one bought or the old one repaired until I see some progress on this issue.


Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2016, 02:46 PM »
Can we hear from a few users who's Kapex is still going strong after 4 or more years?

It's not really relevant.

Whilst I'm sure (as I stated above) many Kapex last for years and years, it doesn't in any way lessen the seriousness of the smaller, but still worryingly large number that don't.

I've been on building, DIY, woodworking, carpentry, construction forums, etc for years and I've never seen a mitre saw from anyone else that has had so many reports of breakdown, either standalone, relative to overall market share of the company, or compared to reports of other tools from the same manufacturer breaking down. 

If 1000 people got murdered in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone who wasn't murdered as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the people who were murdered?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 02:50 PM by bobfog »

Offline JZ Bowmannz

  • Posts: 136
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2016, 02:50 PM »
Can we hear from a few users who's Kapex is still going strong after 4 or more years?

I got mine at least 7 years if not 8, and it's still cutting everything. Took it apart a few times to clean it, and never had electronic problem with it, laser is still working as well.

I don't know if that relevant, I do keep the speed at 5. In fact, I keep all my sanders, TS55, OF 1400 and CTs a notch less than full speed since they were new, and so did to my be loved ATF 55 and OF 1000 (no plug-it cord version). So far nothing wrong with any machine yet.

Offline TomE

  • Posts: 131
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2016, 04:48 PM »
If 1000 people got murdered in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone who wasn't murdered as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the people who were murdered?
And that has what to do with anything Kapex.
The guy asked a question, we answered.
No doubt many have been aggravated by their own situations with the saw, can not blame them... but let's not bring in atrocious comparisons to make a point.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2016, 04:59 PM »
If 1000 people got murdered in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone who wasn't murdered as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the people who were murdered?

And that has what to do with anything Kapex.
The guy asked a question, we answered.
No doubt many have been aggravated by their own situations with the saw, can not blame them... but let's not bring in atrocious comparisons to make a point.

It has nothing to do with a Kapex, it has to do with demonstrating why the question/logic behind the question was irrelevant.

If my "atrocious" comparison offends you I can water it down.

If 1000 teddy bears got stolen from toy shops in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone whose shop didn't have teddy bears stolen as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the teddy bears that were stolen?

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 576
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2016, 05:10 PM »
Teddy bear larceny made my day thanks.

Offline Jamestoolie

  • Posts: 84
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2016, 06:19 PM »
If 1000 people got murdered in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone who wasn't murdered as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the people who were murdered?

And that has what to do with anything Kapex.
The guy asked a question, we answered.
No doubt many have been aggravated by their own situations with the saw, can not blame them... but let's not bring in atrocious comparisons to make a point.

It has nothing to do with a Kapex, it has to do with demonstrating why the question/logic behind the question was irrelevant.

If my "atrocious" comparison offends you I can water it down.

If 1000 teddy bears got stolen from toy shops in a short space of time, would you ask to hear from everyone whose shop didn't have teddy bears stolen as some sort of mitigation of the seriousness of all the teddy bears that were stolen?

I like the teddy bear analogy.  If a teddy bear company who has 10 million teddy bears in circulation discovers that the heads fell off of 10,000 would they recall all teddy bears?  That is 10,000 traumatised children but equates to 1% of all teddy bears in circulation.  [tongue]

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2016, 07:09 PM »

I like the teddy bear analogy.  If a teddy bear company who has 10 million teddy bears in circulation discovers that the heads fell off of 10,000 would they recall all teddy bears?  That is 10,000 traumatised children but equates to 1% of all teddy bears in circulation.  [tongue]

No not necessarily but they may try to learn how to sew the heads on so they don't fall off and fix the ones that do for free.

Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4596
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2016, 07:30 PM »
I almost have the money saved for a Kapex but I think I will now keep my Dewalt for now and invest in a new bandsaw.  Now I have to decide which bandsaw I want???  Thanks Festool.... [blink]

That's the best decision you ever made, getting a band saw verse a second miter saw that is. Even if the Kapex had ZERO issues the truth is the Kapex can't do anything your current saw can't already do, but a Band saw will open up a new world for you.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 07:34 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline rjh

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2016, 07:48 PM »
I posed my question honestly. I can't help (and don't really care) that some find it irrelevant.
 I was genuinely hoping to buy a Kapex in the coming months and the thread was giving me great concern. I don't doubt that a number of users are having problems. But some of the comments, or perhaps just the overall impression, seemed to be quite accusatory and possibly one-sided. I could have started an independent thread but didn't think it necessary. I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't care about the main premise of the thread. It's just very hard to know what the facts are with regards to this saw's problems. Forums are often where people go to try to solve their problems or vent their frustrations, so it is natural for such things to become one-sided. However, the concerns/problem of the thread's founding author are completely valid and important.
Perhaps I could have asked: exactly how many 110 kapex have been sold and exactly how many have had this failure. But I doubt anyone but Festool has this information. So I guess  one can't know and the only option is to raise a ruckus.
As far as logic is concerned: it is an entirely relevant question to ask how many people (or teddy bears, if you like)  were not murdered (stolen). 1,000 murdered out of 6 billion is not a significant statistic. 1,000 out of 10,000 is. Math. [ah, I see jamestoolie posted this logic before I finished this]
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 07:58 PM by rjh »

Offline antss

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2016, 07:55 PM »
Can we hear from a few users who's Kapex is still going strong after 4 or more years?

There are some that run on 110V ?

All kidding aside, Id like to hear how frequently they use them and if they cut timbers or just regular ol thin wood.

And for the teddy bear crowd - my answer would depend on how much said bears cost.  No one gives a flip about a $5 bear lasting a month, but at $500, their expectations are a whole lot higher no matter how many Tedyco sold or found defective.  And it would also depend on if said bear was meant to be played with or was sold just as a decoration.  ANd if it was marketed a play bear and touted by the co. , the bear reps, and fan boys as Uber Qualität and the head fell off more then a handful ( that clearly weren't abused) and weren't replaced gratis - then yes there is a problem and 1% failure is too many. 

AND , we all know that we're not talking about a 1% failure rate here.  Because if we were, the same company mentality that brought us such gems as  " it's meant to cut large timbers, not thin trimwork" and " you're not using it correctly" would be sure to tell everyone that the failure rate is only 1% and you must be abusing it if it broke.  ANd lets not forget the Euro crowd that use the 230V version is not here voicing dissatisfaction. Seemingly the Brits that have access to both voltages appear to have issues with the 110V version too .

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 576
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2016, 08:11 PM »
Whatever the failure rate is its statistically significant enough that festool won't just cover the costs of the burnt out motors. I run a small business and while I'm not in sales i do sell myself on quality. If I had a few issues with my work id RUN back to fix them and save face. If I had a larger amount of issues and was going to lose my shirt then I might keep mum on the issue and just hope it goes away. (I wouldn't do this no matter what)

What this analogy means is that in my eyes festool has a big enough problem on their hands that they won't just bite the bullet and fix it. They have done literally NOTHING to alleviate the problem. In the last thread they opened up an email to glean information the the usage of the motors that were failing. They then came up with the idea that repetitive cuts in thin materials could be an issue. This was months ago and nothing has been done. Make your own decisions based off the facts.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2016, 09:13 PM »
I agree that there is an issue with the Kapex.  It should be a 10+ year saw for its price.  For people to have issues 3-5 years after purchasing the saw is scary.  I'm I need for a new miter saw and have looked at the Kapex but I can't let myself buy it and worry about the issues with the motor.  The miter saw sound be able to do cuts in thin materials with no issues.  Doing trim all the materials are thin and there's a lot of repeat cuts.  Festool should fix the issue with motor and give a longer warranty to prove they stand behind the Kapex.  For me I will not purchase a Kapex until the problem is solved.

Offline Johncarlo

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2016, 10:35 PM »
As a general contractor I've used my Kapex around five times a month to cut all types of material. At no point I would call it abuse of a tool. I use tools to make money. The longer a tool is running, the more money I make. I paid $1500 (not including the stand) three years ago with it selling for over $1900 today. Prices have gone up and the issue still remains. I've been in construction a long time and only need two fingers to count the number of Kapex I've seen on sites. I love the brand, I love the tools, I love my Kapex and it kills me to see it sit. There is no saw like it when it's working. Will I stop buying Festool, no. Will I tell people to buy a Kapex, no. Will I pay to fix my Kapex, no. Not until there is a fix with added warranty.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2016, 10:52 PM »
It should be a 10+ year saw for its price.

Hey guys, for the price of the Kapex, it should be a 30 year saw... but the downtrodden lot that we are, we'll all be happy with a dismal 10 year life span.  [mad]
I have a Milwaukee chop & slider that are over 15 and closer to 20 years old and they both work fine. Both of them together cost almost...drum roll...$400.  [cool]

I get the German "Das macht nichts" attitude, but at sometime you just have to give it up. There are issues and there are problems with the Kapex, but let's move on...and I would consider a good start would be to find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor.
We aren't sending people to the moon, we're cutting wood. There's been a precedence set here that there are multiple suppliers of mitre saws that have worked for over 20 years and they continue to do so.
My suggestion as bold as it may appear to be.........................is to contact one of those successful mitre saw manufacturers and work a deal where you can utilize their motor manufacturing expertise while throwing them a herring for a joint project. It worked with Fein...it will work with others.  You just have to lose the attitude.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 11:29 PM by Cheese »

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 422
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2016, 12:17 AM »
I think it is a good question to ask,( how long and how do you use ) your kapex.
I have stood over that saw about a dozen times,money in hand ,and passed because of these threads. I know how to use a saw, but want to hear from happy owners also.
I have a old and crappy hitachi saw that is probably 20 yrs old , I use sand paper and jig saws to make up for accuracy , but I KNOW the thing will work when I need it.
I really want a kapex, but I will wait. I won't beta test a $1500 saw.
Charlie


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Offline rnt80

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2016, 12:17 AM »
I'll take my turn with the dead horse.  I bought mine when it was released and had to send it in three years ago.  They replaced the armature, bearings, brushes, and a few other things to the tune of $150 plus shipping. 
Regardless of whether or not the percentage of saws experiencing these problems is minuscule, the bad press Festool is getting from this can't be good. Regardless, the silence is deafening.
Russell Tribby
Gilbert AZ
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Offline Holmz

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2016, 12:55 AM »

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2016, 03:22 AM »
I have had my Kapex for a number of years. Works well. BUT, it has been my practice to get it running to full speed before lowering it to the wood. And not rush the cut. Thick, or in my case mostly thin. I remember reading somewhere that that is the proper way to treat these motors (electronic controlled).

A while ago I had a  carpenter doing some work in my home. He was about to do some miter cuts on 2X4s and other thin stock outside on some sawhorses.I told him he could use my "miter saw" in the shop...save setting up etc. He was delighted. So the wood was set against the fence and he proceeded to grab the trigger and start the saw whilst lowering it on to the wood. The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Needless to say I cut the rest of the wood.

I know people have said they baby their Kapex, but I wonder if  technique might be a factor.

BTW, after reading this thread, I also am somewhat anxious about the longevity of my expensive saw.

Cheers,

Peter

😂😂😂😂

Me being a trademen and ive worked with a few but lets say my closest 3 joiners I work with I know they  all start up their chopsaw fully before a cut (Two own a kapex, Two own a dewalt).

 So that makes 4 of use in totally BOOM! Thats blown your statistic out of the water 4 against 1.... Sooo from that I can now overrule your statement

 "But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw". 

 and say I believe most folks start a chopsaw up fully.

Come on dude. The tradmen who used your kapex was clearly not a proffesional.  For one!!! I as a tradmen wouldnt use a customer tool unless I knew them really well. I wouldnt risk it plus I like using my own tools.
Secondly the way you describe the cutting results being rough and splintery he barly started the kapex up. Every proffesional knows a slow blade has a high risk at catching and even stalling.  So no maybe not every one gets a chopsaw  upto full speed but most will get upto a fairly good speed atleast but your guy sounded like the blade was turning no faster than a clocks second hand going round.

  You also must remember people dont do this just on a kapex they will do it on other brands and other brands handle it fine.
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2016, 04:01 PM »
I have no idea what is different with the kapex motors as opposed to other saw motors.  I do remember when I first was using circular saws for masonry work, including used lumber, concrete blocks, bricks, stone, real plaster and any other material you might think of a mason might work with, I went thru four or five saws withing a couple of months.  I went to the people I rented other equipment from.  I explained my problem and after a short discussion, we dragged every circular saw they had down off of the shelves.  We looked all of them over and discovered the vent from the motor was open directly on the side toward the blade.  We found the the Milwaukee 8-1/4" was  vented on the far end from the blade.  I took that one home.  It only lasted for 30 years of every kind of abuse one could think of.  Eventually, I guess the wiring gave out and it just caught fire.  Just a small difference in design made a world of difference.

I suspect there is one tiny feature in the Kapex that needs to be addressed to make a huge difference.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline antss

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2016, 04:32 PM »
"Regardless, the silence is deafening."

Yep....................but then again, there isn't a problem.  Officially.
Nothing to see here - move along.

"had to send it in three years ago.  They replaced the armature, bearings, brushes, and a few other things"

I'm sorry, but a three year old saw shouldn't need bearings unless it was clearly abused  - in which case it's not under warranty and should be replaced with a new one. At the owner's expense.  If it wasn't and needed bearings , then so much for quality.  I suspect they were replaced as a matter of convenience since they were pulled to get to the armature anyway, and cost relatively little at wholesale.

" I would consider a good start would be to find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "

That would seem to be the most expedient way.  Perhaps some of that aloofness they show us punters is warranted with their motor manufacturer.  My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us at full cost, and after a certain # , a penalty to cover my losses would kick in.  Nothing like a little monetary incentive to get to the root of a problem. Now it's good work if you can get it to have the end user assume all the risk - which is the current situation !  And as long as all the fan boys stay quite and keep plying off the dollar bills to join the club, what real incentive does Festool have to fix the problem. 

Overheard on the C-Level:

"Besides , we're selling a crap ton of these LED lights at 350% gross margin and those new HK saws we copied from Mafell are doing well cause they can't even market water to desert nomads during a drought.  I mean what do these ungrateful tool guys want ? We fixed the Carvex after only two years and made it cordless to boot.  Hey Hans, how many of those new radio thingies do we have on hand ? Maybe we can give out a 25% off coupon for them to those guys that spend $900 to fix their Kapex saws.  Stupid M'ericans, don't even know how to properly use a miter saw and they think its supposed to be used for cutting door and window casing too !  No wonder we spend so much time talking about Kapex.

Whew, this strategy meeting has made me thirsty - Pils anyone ?



p.s - the FIRST step to solving a problem is acknowledging you HAVE a problem in the first place.  I know it's tough , especially for the engineer types and big ego crowd. 




Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2016, 05:25 PM »
I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

 Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

Offline glass1

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2016, 05:36 PM »
Actually, that was hilarious !  I think it's exactly what was ordered a "roast"

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2016, 05:47 PM »
antss wrote;

"find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "
...
My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us"


And if everything was designed and specified by Festool engineers?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2016, 06:09 PM »

Although I have a Kapex which runs fine since I bought it in 2010, I have read all the posts about the Kapex and feel for those who have had issues.

What I have come to in my mind is a question about accelerated wear testing.  It is used everywhere for everything, but if in reality the way the tests are performed don't mirror the actual usage of items in real life then the data provided is less than required.  And then the final product might not be what is needed in real life.

I hope that this gets sorted out.  This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Peter

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2016, 06:54 PM »

. . . . . . . . . .     This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Peter

@Peter Halle

Agree Peter. Perception or reality?

None the less there is a problem.
And not just with Festool Kapex sales in North America. This must be affecting Kapex sales in Europe, Australasia etc,.  As Festool expands in these markets, sure there might be a percentage sales increase for Kapex but could this percentage have been greater?

I know this Kapex issue, together with local marketing factors, is influencing my future tool buying decisions and how I respond to woodworking friends.

I still appreciate the quality and design of most Festool products. But I would be insulted if some one now called me a 'FanBoy'. Around two years ago I might have smiled.  [smile]
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 07:00 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2016, 07:04 PM »
Hey,  I know from conversations with people that are hard to get to talk to that investigations are going on.  What comes out of them I can't predict.  I am no longer a glass ball interpreter.  I can't be - I personally seem to live in a snow globe that has a rinse / repeat function.  Not about health though - gratefully.

Peter

Offline Holmz

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2016, 07:15 PM »
I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

 Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

I am sure the marketing types, and psychologists use "the type of buyer" information, like it is going of fashion.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2016, 07:26 PM »
I think it would be good when discussing topics and stating opinions, that the general (or specific) disparagement of people who buy Festool products as well as Festool employees be left out.

This topic and a few others have some posts that are laced with it.

 Its uncalled for and a big turn off.

Seth

I am sure the marketing types, and psychologists use "the type of buyer" information, like it is going of fashion.

But as Seth said in regards to posting here....

Peter

Offline Holmz

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2016, 08:17 PM »
Well I am allowed to be introspective as that is only a thought crime.

A few years back, which is somewhere coming up on 7-10 I think, we saw one in Melbourne. The Haus Frau wanted to get it, and we were both excited about the idea.
But we thought we would wait till we really needed it.

I still want it to work, and I want to need it. It is like Scully and Moulder.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2016, 10:16 PM »
This is one of those situations where a savvy marketing consultant would be screaming loudly about "...ignore the statistics.  You are killing your brand!"

Well said Peter... [thumbs up]  this Kapex meltdown issue is a pretty hot topic on the FOG, and the contributors can get very hot under the collar, myself included  [eek], because they/I'm very frustrated with Festool's response.

However, as you so adroitly pointed out, we are now approaching the area where the only really pertinent question is, Festool....do you only want to win the battle or would you prefer to win the war?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 10:38 PM by Cheese »

Offline antss

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2016, 11:56 PM »
antss wrote;

"find a different vendor for the motor and the internal elements of the motor. "
...
My contract with the supplier would stipulate that they are taking back every single one returned to us"


And if everything was designed and specified by Festool engineers?

That's an even easier solution . [wink]

Offline Arvid

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #97 on: September 19, 2016, 12:19 PM »
I have had two since the year they were released. On in my van gets used weekly as well as in my shop gets used weekly for 5-8 hours steady.
Only problem I ever had with one of them was the electrical cord connection running into the saw which I fixed myself. It was getting pinched and shorted out.
If this was a common problem I can see power being interrupted or not delivered adequately and effecting the life of the motor.
But both mine from day of release are working as they always have.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 450
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2016, 03:24 PM »
The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Peter

I have the Kapex for two years (as well as the DF 500 for three years; but sold the CT26 and now use a $60 shop vac/dust deputy for the Festool tools). Peter nailed the issue with using mitre saws (not just for Kapex). I've seen too many chop saw users make cuts before the saws are ready (fired up). Such habits could stay even when one gets a Kapex.

Over the past two years, I've used it to cross cut materials of all kinds, soft wood, hardwood, plywood, mdf and what not. Thin, thick, repetitive. See the latest job (ash) in the pic done over the weekend -- well over 150 repetitive cross cuts in one single session. Touch wood, my Kapex is not having any issue.

I'd recommend starting cuts only after the saw is in full speed (I set the speed to that recommended for wood: 4 (?)) and after the vac is in full force, and checking your technique -- do you burn the wood with your cuts all the time?

I am not sure, too, what is meant by "abuse", but the Kapex is the only mitre saw in my shop (Dewalt sold as I thought the Kapex was the top-of-the-line mitre saw ... not so sure after reading this thread!). Is it abuse or improper technique? Festool should, as others have suggested, handle this issue with more class. A $500 - $900 repair estimate + shipping sounds like adding salt to a wound for a Kapex owner.

Chuck
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 03:53 PM by ChuckM »

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2016, 04:49 PM »
The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Peter

I have the Kapex for two years (as well as the DF 500 for three years; but sold the CT26 and now use a $60 shop vac/dust deputy for the Festool tools). Peter nailed the issue with using mitre saws (not just for Kapex). I've seen too many chop saw users make cuts before the saws are ready (fired up). Such habits could stay even when one gets a Kapex.

Over the past two years, I've used it to cross cut materials of all kinds, soft wood, hardwood, plywood, mdf and what not. Thin, thick, repetitive. See the latest job (ash) in the pic done over the weekend -- well over 150 repetitive cross cuts in one single session. Touch wood, my Kapex is not having any issue.

I'd recommend starting cuts only after the saw is in full speed (I set the speed to that recommended for wood: 4 (?)) and after the vac is in full force, and checking your technique -- do you burn the wood with your cuts all the time?

I am not sure, too, what is meant by "abuse", but the Kapex is the only mitre saw in my shop (Dewalt sold as I thought the Kapex was the top-of-the-line mitre saw ... not so sure after reading this thread!). Is it abuse or improper technique? Festool should, as others have suggested, handle this issue with more class. A $500 - $900 repair estimate + shipping sounds like adding salt to a wound for a Kapex owner.

Chuck

I dont class 150 cuts in one session alot.  Just couple weeks ago I made 1600 cuts in one session.  Ive done that with my Makita and my kapex.
Kinda like my mates dewalt well all three of my joiner mates do it with their dewalts wedge the guard up. Although DeanSocial has become a kapex owner recently.





EDIT>  demonstration of unsafe practices.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:48 AM by SRSemenza »
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Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2016, 07:07 PM »
 [thumbs up] [thumbs up] I applaud the sheer ghetto ingenuity of your 2x4 track saw trammel arm JMB. That shouldn't go unnoticed in this thread.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2016, 08:23 PM »

I do like your trammel solution tho.
Tinker
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:52 AM by SRSemenza »
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline duburban

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2016, 12:00 AM »
Perhaps we should let this thread survive strongly by avoiding bickering about such things?

I do not own a Kapex. I would like to give FESTOOL more money than I should for one, when it has been proven robust enough compared to cheaper, conventional name-brand saws.

Perhaps... we can even create some empty space in here for FESTOOL to respond in some fashion to yet another "flare-up".

And, ultimately, leave space for the OP to keep everyone updated on the unfortunate status of his Kapex.

What might be interesting, in this thread or another, is a survey of the brand saw and how long it has lasted under what type of use to help put things into perspective.

helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2016, 12:23 AM »
What might be interesting, in this thread or another, is a survey of the brands of saws and how long it has lasted under what type of use to help put things into perspective.

Whoa....you don't even want to go there, because it will not be pretty. I'm a big fan of Festool but a Kapex longevity survey versus all the others will not bode well for Festool. I even think Festool would discourage this type of competitive event...second thought this could be interesting, but then again....................... there isn't a problem, so why would this even be necessary?

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2016, 12:33 AM »
What might be interesting, in this thread or another, is a survey of the brands of saws and how long it has lasted under what type of use to help put things into perspective.

Whoa....you don't even want to go there, because it will not be pretty. I'm a big fan of Festool but a Kapex longevity survey versus all the others will not bode well for Festool. I even think Festool would discourage this type of competitive event...second thought this could be interesting, but then again....................... there isn't a problem, so why would this even be necessary?

"The counting of votes that are of questionable legality does in my view threaten irreparable harm to petitioner Bush, and to the country, by casting a cloud upon what he claims to be the legitimacy of his election."  Justice Scalia

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2016, 12:41 AM »
Michael, you have either a great memory or a great search engine... [not worthy]

Offline duburban

  • Posts: 914
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2016, 12:48 AM »
The idea of the survey is to address the idea that cheaper tools fail and are thrown away never to be discussed. I have not seen that as true from my experience on jobsites.

I am 30, have owned 3 saws, Bosch, Makita, and Hitachi for about 10 years without failure. The older fellows I work with replace saws when they have been too badly disfigured from transport and abuse, not use.

Survey is a bad idea, I get that. I also get that comparative saws do not fail and disappear from memory as suggested.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2016, 02:11 AM »
The idea of the survey is to address the idea that cheaper tools fail and are thrown away never to be discussed.

The older fellows I work with replace saws when they have been too badly disfigured from transport and abuse, not use.

Hey duburban...I'm in your camp. I think it's absolutely ludicrous that a $1500 mitre saw only lasts for 3+ (they seem to usually blow lunch after the end of the warranty period) years. If these were $200 sanders then these probably would be thrown away never to be discussed, but unfortunately they're $1500 saws. If my 3 year old Kapex bites the dust in a few years, I will become a  VERY...VERY disgruntled Festool owner and will question the sanity in purchasing more Festool tools.

Inspite of Festool's protestations to the contrary, I don't believe for 1 minute that the repair/service/failure record for Kapex saws is the same as the rest of their tools. If that were the case, we'd be seeing multiple discussions on a daily basis of sanders/drills/track saws failing. That just doesn't happen, instead we see failed Kapex items being discussed on a weekly basis and I would hazard a guess that they sell 30+ ETS sanders for every single Kapex that's sold. Something just doesn't ring true here.

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 641
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2016, 01:51 PM »
On the one hand you never see people making a post to say their Kapex is working fine and lots of them, probably massively more than break down, last a long time compared to those that break. So now with that stating the obvious defence out of the way...

It must be statistically impossible that there isn't a problem with the Kapex saws. The sheer number of post in the last year prove that it must by law of averages be a big problem. It's one of Festool's most expensive tools and yet you hear about it breaking down on a weekly basis. The only way this logic could be wrong is if the cheaper tools that Festool sell more of are breaking down just as often, but people don't post about it.

When are Festool going to face up and do the decent thing and fix/recall them? I really would like to buy a Kapex, but not until there's an official admission and rectification of the faults!

Never?  I just heard they have a new ETS 125, and it's on sale!

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 576
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2016, 07:18 AM »
Just saw this post again and wanted to remind anyone on the fence about this saw that nothing's been done about the motor for a time span measuring by in the years now. Yet completely new tools have been developed, new service protocols have been put into effect, almost all metric tools in the US are being switched from metric to imperial and now Festool has run a massive discount sale on sanders to increase market penetration in the United States.

That's quite a lot of activity from then that has nothing to do with a mechanical failure issue on their most expensive saw. After thinking about it like that I really have no respect for them anymore.

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 857
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2016, 07:25 AM »
Just saw this post again and wanted to remind anyone on the fence about this saw that nothing's been done about the motor for a time span measuring by in the years now. Yet completely new tools have been developed, new service protocols have been put into effect, almost all metric tools in the US are being switched from metric to imperial and now Festool has run a massive discount sale on sanders to increase market penetration in the United States.

That's quite a lot of activity from then that has nothing to do with a mechanical failure issue on their most expensive saw. After thinking about it like that I really have no respect for them anymore.

They have made a lot of head way with the Kapex.  Festool states that motor failures are cause by repeat cuts in thin material...... So we are not supposed to use the saw for trim?  Or any other repeat cuts in thin material.  Why buy the Kapex?   

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2016, 08:33 AM »
If they burn out on thin material I wouldn't want to use one on some thick stuff.

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 129
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2016, 01:40 PM »
Just saw this post again and wanted to remind anyone on the fence about this saw that nothing's been done about the motor for a time span measuring by in the years now. Yet completely new tools have been developed, new service protocols have been put into effect, almost all metric tools in the US are being switched from metric to imperial and now Festool has run a massive discount sale on sanders to increase market penetration in the United States.

That's quite a lot of activity from then that has nothing to do with a mechanical failure issue on their most expensive saw. After thinking about it like that I really have no respect for them anymore.


I wonder if Festool could provide some sort of status update on this. It is not too much to ask I think. If remember right the last official sort of update was asking for users to provide data about their saws and that was sometime ago.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2016, 09:32 AM »
Give them a break guys.

They are really busy packaging up sanders to deliver to all you by Nov.1.  [big grin]

Offline amt

  • Posts: 372
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2016, 01:58 PM »
I wonder if anyone with a still unrepaired saw would be willing to send it to an independent lab for analysis. It would be very interesting to find out exactly what is breaking, instead of the "armature" which IMO is not specific enough.

Since Kapex has been out for quite a long time and Festool does not seem totally forthcoming, it makes me wonder if there's a new saw in the works, perhaps with a brushless motor.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2016, 02:51 PM »
Brushless miter saw ???

Now that would be something interesting.  Is a motor large enough even practical ?

Offline bigdogmedia

  • Posts: 21
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #116 on: October 15, 2016, 07:56 AM »
For those whom the warranty has expired. would it not be cheaper to get the armature rewound by a company that specializes in doing this type of work? I'm sure that the cost would not be anywhere near what Festool is charging to fix it.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7323
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #117 on: October 15, 2016, 08:39 AM »
For those whom the warranty has expired. would it not be cheaper to get the armature rewound by a company that specializes in doing this type of work? I'm sure that the cost would not be anywhere near what Festool is charging to fix it.

Festool replaces more than just the armature.  Other repair companies won't have the parts needed to make the repairs. 
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 641
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #118 on: October 21, 2016, 10:26 PM »
I have had my Kapex for a number of years. Works well. BUT, it has been my practice to get it running to full speed before lowering it to the wood. And not rush the cut. Thick, or in my case mostly thin. I remember reading somewhere that that is the proper way to treat these motors (electronic controlled).

A while ago I had a  carpenter doing some work in my home. He was about to do some miter cuts on 2X4s and other thin stock outside on some sawhorses.I told him he could use my "miter saw" in the shop...save setting up etc. He was delighted. So the wood was set against the fence and he proceeded to grab the trigger and start the saw whilst lowering it on to the wood. The result was, to say the least, not good. The vac (connected) did not have time to come up to speed (dust all over) and the cut was very coarse. Lots of tear out. But that is how I suspect most folks in the trade use a "chop saw".

Needless to say I cut the rest of the wood.

I know people have said they baby their Kapex, but I wonder if  technique might be a factor.

BTW, after reading this thread, I also am somewhat anxious about the longevity of my expensive saw.

Cheers,

Peter

Have you ever heard that quote "Never lend your tools, your wife, or your car, as they will not be returned in as good a condition."?

Offline Kodi Crescent

  • Posts: 641
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2016, 10:35 PM »
Whatever the failure rate is its statistically significant enough that festool won't just cover the costs of the burnt out motors. I run a small business and while I'm not in sales i do sell myself on quality. If I had a few issues with my work id RUN back to fix them and save face. If I had a larger amount of issues and was going to lose my shirt then I might keep mum on the issue and just hope it goes away. (I wouldn't do this no matter what)

We are dealing with a company from another country.  There may be a cultural component preventing admission or gratis resolution.  Teutonic pride!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4324
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2016, 01:10 AM »
Have you ever heard that quote "Never lend your tools, your wife, or your car, as they will not be returned in as good a condition."?

That's hilarious...no...I've never heard that quote, but I will be quoting it from here on out...

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Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3616
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #121 on: October 22, 2016, 10:48 AM »
Have you ever heard that quote "Never lend your tools, your wife, or your car, as they will not be returned in as good a condition."?

That's hilarious...no...I've never heard that quote, but I will be quoting it from here on out...

i had heard that, but once loaned my chainsaw to one of my builders.  After six months or so with no return, i went looking for my saw which was in excellent condition >>> when i loaned it.  When he handed it back to me, the teeth on the chain were all rounded and blue.  The bar was bent and the motor was burned out from not adding 2-cycle oil to the gas.  Needless to say, I never loaned anything to that guy again.

The other end of the spectrum was when a good friend was going to buy a small bandsaw, but did not know if such a small size would handle his needs.  I had a 9 or 10 " bench model that I had inherited from my dad that i loaned my friend so he could test it.  I told him to use as long as he needed to as i did not, at the time, have space in my own shop.  The saw was not in great condition when I loaned it, but my friend completely stripped it down, determined what parts were needed, went directly to the manufacturer, had a long discussion (or several)with engineers and found out the saw was at the time, 43 years old (that was about 30 years ago).  Diston (it was a Rockwell-DeWalt-Diston) still had enough parts to completely build a new saw if needed.  My friend not only replaced all parts needed, but he built a beautiful oak stand for the saw with a brass plaque with my name on it.  When my friend passed away, his youngest son brought the saw back to me in far better condition than when i had loaned it to his dad.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Tomi

  • Posts: 1
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2016, 06:24 AM »
Hi my kapex went for repair after 1 year and 3 months of use I'm site carpenter I'm always use high power constant use 5kv transformer I was weary disappointed. Festool fix it for free as have 3 years warranty. But let's get to the point! I bought my festool kit because I was thinking they are best quality simply they isn't the new  milewaukiee chop saw eats kapex. Kapex it's too week on power, stiupidly designet Frances that you have to remove every single time if you would like to use both bevels, after a time of use its hard to turn the angle table from side to side. And yes I'm a festool daily user 😂😂😂😂😂😂 my wasted money sits in kapex for sure. I'm positive that when it break again it will be when warranty gone and I will go for milewaukie.

Offline mbrusso

  • Posts: 22
Re: Kapex is DEAD
« Reply #123 on: November 15, 2016, 07:12 PM »
Interesting bunch of posts. I am having to send mine in for the armature to be replaced now too because the motor does not spin up nearly as fast as it used to. I noticed it when someone at the Festool Road show in Toronto ran one and it was running way faster than what I know mine does (Just from the sound)

Pretty awesome saw though- And the service is top notch. The dude with the northern ontario/french accent is a pro and put a new armature on my TS-55 saw and it runs like a top now. Tres bien monsieur.