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Author Topic: Kapex just died  (Read 15586 times)

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Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 835
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2018, 09:15 PM »
The Kapex needs 13A to start up and will use less power if the load on the blade is not that much. I believe the Ct26 requires 8-9 A. 13 plus 8 is 21. Therefore 1 15 A circuit will not be suffice power. It will work, but over time it will cause problems as we our seeing burned out motors. I don't think we will see anything soon as Fedtool has been promoting this system. If you look at the Fein dust extractors they only provide 9 A in their plug.

Cheers.

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Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 856
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2018, 09:33 PM »
The current that you get from any electrical outlet is not limited to or reduced by the rating of the circuit. The limiting factor is the CB which will trip and remove the power if the demand is greater than it is designed to deliver. The limit on the CT is not the max that they can supply but the max that they should supply. The limit is for the safety of the CT not the device that is plugged into it, it is there to protect the CT's wiring.

Drawing max power from an underrated circuit may result in a slight drop in the voltage due to the thinner wire but this would be less than the normal variation in the supply. One the other hand running off a long undersized extension cord (or wiring) may drop the voltage enough that the motor current increases enough to overheat the motor even though it is not exceeding the CB's rating.

The only way to check that everything is fine is to measure the voltage at the motor when it is under full load and if that is correct and the CB doesn't trip then your power is fine.

If the motor still burns out then it is not suitable for the work that you are doing and unfortunately I feel that this is where the Kapex lands.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 835
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2018, 09:42 PM »
My CT26 is plugged into a dedicated 15A circuit with no extension. The Kapex plugged directly into the 26. The work I do is cabinet making and do about 2 kitchens a year. I have never cut any 2x4's with this saw. 95% of my work is cutting shelves to length and cutting profile trim for cabinets, rails and stiles.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2018, 10:32 PM »
I would like to refer everyone to this statement from Festool. Perhaps @TylerC can confirm if this is still the case.

     http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/amp-rating-on-festool-dust-extractor-outlet/msg416034/#msg416034

Seth

Offline Jimdude

  • Posts: 37
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2018, 07:34 AM »
I would like to refer everyone to this statement from Festool. Perhaps @TylerC can confirm if this is still the case.

     http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/amp-rating-on-festool-dust-extractor-outlet/msg416034/#msg416034

Seth
From that statement: “To reduce the risk of fire, only connect a tool rated 3.1 amp. maximum to this receptacle”.

Is that a typo or something? 3.1A is what my beardtrimmer draws (well not really, i'm being hyperbolic). It's certainly not the 13A that the Kapex requires.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 180
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2018, 08:17 AM »
The reality here is that the Kapex, or at least the 120V spec Kapex has shown itself to be susceptible to motor failure.  Lacking any specific info from Festool and only having the anecdotal stories that appear here, we have no idea what the frequency of the problem is nor what the root cause is.  In the face of this situation prudent owners of this $1500 piece of equipment are wise to avoid stressing the weakness of this tool and overloading the supply circuit is certainly one way to stress it.  Fetsools own specs on the CT vacs seem to suggest only the foolhardy would connect a Kapex to the switched outlet.  If an extension cord is needed the modest investment required for a quality 12ga cord is very cheap insurance.  If you have a dedicated 20A outlet you'd be wise to plug your Kapex there, if not you'd be wise to install one. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3257
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2018, 08:52 AM »
My previous comment about buying and returning a stop-gap saw was equal parts sarcasm and advise.

A properly designed and manufactured motor should last decades. The only repairs required should be brushes and bearings.

Festool should have a rapid replacement program to cover motor issues. And an extended warranty program for same. Until they do I think it’s appropriate for owners of defective saws to avail themselves of the only effective way to get back to work quickly and pressure Festool to take responsibility for this product.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2018, 08:57 AM »
I would like to refer everyone to this statement from Festool. Perhaps @TylerC can confirm if this is still the case.

     http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/amp-rating-on-festool-dust-extractor-outlet/msg416034/#msg416034

Seth
From that statement: “To reduce the risk of fire, only connect a tool rated 3.1 amp. maximum to this receptacle”.

Is that a typo or something? 3.1A is what my beardtrimmer draws (well not really, i'm being hyperbolic). It's certainly not the 13A that the Kapex requires.



Yes, but it goes on to say the following-----------------

            Festool CT Dust Extractors are designed to be used with every Festool product in normal working environments.  In short, you will be fine to use any of our tools  with the CT.  We do it all the time without issue.  Remember that although it is capable of pulling 10 amps of current, it won't approach that level of draw in most applications.


      An update or clarification would be good.

         As far as anecdotal is concerned it is very hard to know the cause and probably makes sense to ere on the safe side.  However the anecdotes related to running it off the CT are most likely a huge number on the non-failure side. I have to believe that there are umpteen (a big relative number that is not scientific or exact  [smile] ) users running Kapex, TS75 etc off the CT without issue, me included.

Seth

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2018, 09:16 AM »
I don’t think the problem with the Kapex motor is a power supply issue. If it is then Festool is going the opposite way if they want to avoid future burn-outs.

Recent CTs have received a reduced capacity power cord, now 14 gauge down from 12. My old CT Mini came with a 12 gauge cord with a 20 amp plug and a 20 to 15 amp adapter.

The tool activated recepticle on that Mini says (paraphrased) “to reduce risk of fire, when connected to a 20 amp circuit limit tool to 6 amps. When connected to a 15 amp circuit limit tool to 2 amps”.

I’m not an electrician but it’s my understanding that the above warning and practically all warnings about the limits of electrical supplies refers to continuous use. Think of the duty cycle rating of a welder for example. Even when I’m ripping a stack of boards with the TS 75 (with a DD equipped Mini) the duty cycle is only around 50%. In use the bottom line is to check the temperature of the plug at the main. If it’s very warm give it a rest.

I’ve been using power tools for over 40 years and only one motor has failed. An orange colored B&D drill used for mixing drywall mud, probably designed for a 10% duty cycle. There is almost no way to exceed the duty cycle of a properly designed miter saw.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 09:23 AM by Michael Kellough »

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 835
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2018, 09:38 AM »
I agree, that many of us, if not all, do use our Festool power tools with our CT's. It's the best dust free solution on the market and I have enjoyed it and benefited from it over the last 4 years. Clients all always impressed with how clean the work area is.

Now, I'm no electrician, but as a layman when it comes to power supply, my only source of information is the operating intsructions that comes with every tool purchased. If you at the Technical Data section on the CT26/36 manual you will see that the Total connected Load is not to exceed 12A and when the CT is at it's lowest level of suction, the maximal rating of a connected power tool can be 9.1A. This right from the manual.
So now I take out the manual for the Kapex and read the Technical Specification section and see that it requires 13A. So I conclude that the Kapex should not be plugged into the CT and should be on a non-loaded 15A circuit. If you plug in the CT into a 15 A circuit, it will draw a medium value of 8.3A, but a maximum power consumption of 10 A is possible.

So using simple math, I have a 15 A circuit, CT26/36 will use an average of 8.3 A and the Kapex needs 13 A. 8.3 plus 13 equals 21.3 A. So according to the math, a 20 A circuit will not be suffice.

Now, I have been told that over current (Amps ) and to low of current will cause over heating in the motor, thus deteriorating
the insulation in the windings, and over time will cause motor failure.

Please keep in mind that I'm by no means an electrical expert of pretend to be one, so the only info I can rely on are the operating instructions from manuals.

The other concern I have is Warranty. If you read the Warranty page you will see the following statement.

" This warranty is valid on the pre-condition that the tool is used and operated in compliance with the Festool operating instructions"

So based on the operating instructions of both the CT26/36 and Kapex KS 120 manual, plugging the Kapex into the dust extractor is not in compliance with the Festool operating instructions. This is based solely on the technical specs for both machines.

Thought I would share my findings for the morning.


Cheers,
JC



Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3257
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2018, 10:01 AM »
My 6 year old Fein Turbo II 9-20-25 vac has a tool activated receptacle rated at 19 amps. Can't possibly think that Fein engineers are somehow smarter or more capable than Festool engineers, but it makes you wonder. I've plugged just about everything into it, TS75, 12" miter saw, worm drive saw (converted for dust collection), even a Bosch 4100 table saw. My shed has 30 amp lines so I'm never concerned about the outlet draw or kicking breakers.

The Fein vacs are pretty robust. I hang a 16 year old Turbo lol from my shop ceiling with a DD down in easier reach and plug anything I want to run into it. (Now that I write this I remember that the Auto/Manual switch died so I have to turn on the vac to get a tool to run, which increases the delayed start of the tool). I read that CNC guys use them as vacuum table hold downs and run them for 24 hours at a time.

Whatever the Festool manual says it’s accepted practice and demonstrated use (by Festool employees at roadshows etc.) to exceed the specs in the manual. Also, between the soft start of the tools and delayed start of the vac you aren’t pulling full load of either tool at the same time.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 415
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2018, 12:09 PM »
I am paying close attention to this thread to draw out the "best practice" lessons for using my Kapex. But I must say never have I had the slightest concern in the past with any power tools in my shop about the effects of current & voltage on their longevity.

I have never bothered to read anything about amps in any manual and presume if it is sold in N.A., my regular circuits would be fine. And, if anything goes wrong, it is only the tripping of the breaker that bothers me (as I have to go down to the basement for the panel), but nothing else.

If Festool could identify the Kapex motor issue and find a fix (even if it is a new and redesigned motor) once and for all, I would rather pay to get the fix and get over with it.


Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 415
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2018, 12:14 PM »
I am paying close attention to this thread to draw out the "best practice" lessons for using my Kapex. But I must say never have I had the slightest concern in the past with any power tools in my shop about the effects of current & voltage on their longevity.

I have never bothered to read anything about amps in any manual and presume if it is sold in N.A., my regular circuits would be fine. And, if anything goes wrong, it is only the tripping of the breaker that bothers me (as I have to go down to the basement for the panel), but nothing else.

(Even for the new welder (20amp specified in the manual), many past user reviews suggested it could be used on a 15amp circuit with no issues (probably because of the duty cycle thing). I installed a 20 amp outlet just for added assurance.)

If Festool could identify the Kapex motor issue and find a fix (even if it is a new and redesigned motor) once and for all, I would rather pay to get the fix and get over with it.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 207
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2018, 12:26 PM »
This isn't related to the Kapex directly, but we had 2 electric lawn mowers die within a relatively short lifespan (I think like 1 - 1.5 cutting seasons) back in the early to middle 1990's.  I believe the premature motor failure was the result of the combination of using too long of an extension cord and not a heavy enough gauge cord, which ultimately resulted in insufficient voltage to the motor.

I had no way of proving this for a fact, but this has been my theory for why those electric lawn mowers didn't last very long.

The Bosch Axial-Glide Saws look pretty nice.  I have no idea how it stacks up to the Kapex or other Sliding Compound Miter Saws, but it looks like it can be positioned much closer to a wall than a traditional SCMS.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 549
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2018, 01:18 PM »
Improperly gauged extension cords are a problem for anything electrical. There are charts in some tool instruction manuals showing minimum wire gauges for different lengths. You can never go wrong using larger gauge extension cords. The only downsides are weight and bulk.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 207
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2018, 01:34 PM »
Maybe people don't realize the importance of the wire gauge?  Or maybe it's just something that I didn't realize.

I know before I never thought anything about it.  It was basically like, hmm just plug those 2 cheap random extension cords together so it's long enough and we're good to go.  The tool works so everything must be good right???  I didn't know anything about the concept of voltage drop until I looked into it one day.

It never ceases to amaze me about all the good nuggets of information you can learn when you read the instruction manual - sooooo that's what that button is for.  I know I'm very often guilty of not reading a manual when I first get a tool or any device for that matter.
Inquiring Minds Want to Know

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1010
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2018, 02:10 PM »
I'm just going to say this assuming someone at Festool HQ is reading this.  It's clear that there is a problem to almost everyone that reads this forum regularly or anyone that browses reviews on other websites.  7 out of the 10 most recent reviews on A****n are very poor, specifically addressing issues customers experienced with the motor.  Personally, I don't care whether the problem with the Kapex is on my end, a short sighted design or a batch of bad parts.  I bought the saw and use it because I like it.  At this point, if the motor burns up, I don't even care who is going to pay for it (-->out of warranty).  What I would like is an answer - a solution and a path to make sure my saw doesn't burn up at an inconvenient time.  Maybe there are steps I can take to avoid a failure?  Maybe it's outside my control?  Maybe I need to send it in to have a part changed?  Just tell me.  I understand there are legalities and liabilities to be considered for a company, but don't let that hamstring you from acting in your customer's interest or you will continue to erode a reputation that took years to earn. 
-Raj

Online live4ever

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2018, 02:21 PM »
Amen to RKA's post.   [not worthy]
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 765
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2018, 06:48 PM »
Festool has done their job whether you want to believe or not. They state with every tools the amp draw and on the vacs they say the max amperage available and what the vac requires. Do they have to require a completed math exam before tool purchase? If you don't  understand make sure you do your research before you purchase. Do they have to put on the machines in bold fluorescent pink not to be used with CT vacuum power source. Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4220
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2018, 06:58 PM »
Amen to RKA's post.   [not worthy]

I’ll give 2 Amens & a Hallelujah to RKA’s post. [not worthy]  [not worthy]

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2018, 07:42 PM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.

Since I have a 30amp set-up for my Kapex and shop vac, I should be safe...am I?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2018, 07:59 PM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.

Since I have a 30amp set-up for my Kapex and shop vac, I should be safe...am I?

No one in the public area knows how widespread this is or why some are having issues or why some are and some aren't.

Peter

Offline Svar

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2018, 08:03 PM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.
Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.
Probably not, since TS75 or OF2200 don't have the same failure rate. I mean how many FOG post have you read saying "my TS75 is on it's third motor" etc?

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2018, 10:38 PM »
Probably not, since TS75 or OF2200 don't have the same failure rate. I mean how many FOG post have you read saying "my TS75 is on it's third motor" etc?

I’m with Svar on this one. When was the last time we had a thread that read “My TS 75 or my OF 2200” crapped out while using a Festool vac.

However, it would be interesting to tally up the number of failed Kapex’s that have been identified on this site. I think the total is larger than you’d suspect...probably even larger than Festool will admit to.  [poke]

Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 180
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2018, 11:51 PM »
I'm just going to say this assuming someone at Festool HQ is reading this.  It's clear that there is a problem to almost everyone that reads this forum regularly or anyone that browses reviews on other websites.  7 out of the 10 most recent reviews on A****n are very poor, specifically addressing issues customers experienced with the motor.  Personally, I don't care whether the problem with the Kapex is on my end, a short sighted design or a batch of bad parts.  I bought the saw and use it because I like it.  At this point, if the motor burns up, I don't even care who is going to pay for it (-->out of warranty).  What I would like is an answer - a solution and a path to make sure my saw doesn't burn up at an inconvenient time.  Maybe there are steps I can take to avoid a failure?  Maybe it's outside my control?  Maybe I need to send it in to have a part changed?  Just tell me.  I understand there are legalities and liabilities to be considered for a company, but don't let that hamstring you from acting in your customer's interest or you will continue to erode a reputation that took years to earn.

I suspect it’s a design flaw and Festool knows that if they admit to this the flood gates will open.  If it was a safety issue, they would respond quickly because the litigation would eat them alive.

When you sell a $1400+ saw the thing better be solid.  If this happened to a $150 Harbor Freight saw nobody would care.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:54 PM by Ajax »
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2018, 07:47 AM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.

Since I have a 30amp set-up for my Kapex and shop vac, I should be safe...am I?

Like has been the constant in these threads Festool has not given a reason. Unless you have somehow figured out a way to alter the properties of electricity, if you plug the Kapex directly into the Vac to use the autostart you have a potential burnout in the making. They should be operated independently on 2 seperate 15 or 20 amp 120V circuits.

Offline Peter Durand

  • Posts: 190
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2018, 04:13 PM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.

Since I have a 30amp set-up for my Kapex and shop vac, I should be safe...am I?

No one in the public area knows how widespread this is or why some are having issues or why some are and some aren't.

Peter

Except of course Festool. And they ain't talking. I have one connected exclusively to a 33 and has worked well for many many years. Light duty-I have only gone through 3 bags of dust. However now every time I go to use it I am wondering if it will be the last. If it conks out I certainly will not be sending it for an expensive repair or buying another one. Regretfully.

Cheers,

Peter
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 01:46 PM by Peter Durand »

Offline Runhard

  • Posts: 786
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2018, 06:03 PM »
Any tool will burn up if constantly underpowered.

Was this the main reason why those Kapexes burned up? I hope Festool would shed some official light on it.

Since I have a 30amp set-up for my Kapex and shop vac, I should be safe...am I?

Like has been the constant in these threads Festool has not given a reason. Unless you have somehow figured out a way to alter the properties of electricity, if you plug the Kapex directly into the Vac to use the autostart you have a potential burnout in the making. They should be operated independently on 2 seperate 15 or 20 amp 120V circuits.

Then why does Festool tell us that we can use any of their tools plugged into any of the CT dust collectors?

From Festool:
"Festool CT Dust Extractors are designed to be used with every Festool product in normal working environments.  In short, you will be fine to use any of our tools with the CT.  We do it all the time without issue.  Remember that although it is capable of pulling 10 amps of current, it won't approach that level of draw in most applications. 

Brent"

(I'm assuming that Brent is a Festool employee.)

Daniel
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 07:10 PM by Runhard »
Daniel

Offline JCLP

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Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2018, 06:51 PM »
Brent.
I do agree that the Kapex seems to work well plugged into the CT but unless Festool has figured out a way to change the laws of physics it is not possible to get optimal performance and life expectancy when plugged into a circuit that will only provide 5-6.5 A on average. The saw needs close to 13 A to run efficiently and not void the warranty. Hearing that every thing works well drive me nuts. The English language is such a grey language. Saying it works, yes can be true, but define the word "works". The only sure thing we can depend on is the math. 2 plus 2 is 4 in every language all over the world. If you read the Festool operational specs for the CT and the Kapex you will see that the math makes sense. My Kapex worked well for 4 years on the CT. Remember, low current and high current will damage a motor. It's pure math and physics.

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 855
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2018, 08:33 PM »
Unfortunately this has been a long drawn out discussion for years on FoG and else where that will not end.   Festool either doesn’t care that there is an obvious issue with the Kapex, or they are arrogant enough to know people will keep buying the saw even though a problem exists.  This Kapex issue has made me lose trust in the brand.   I do like and use Festool items everyday but now I am more willing to look in other directions besides Festool.