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Author Topic: Kapex just died  (Read 18271 times)

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Offline Wooden Skye

  • Posts: 1121
  • My little girl was called home 12-28-15
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2018, 08:55 PM »
I have read this entire thread, and Kapex failures, almost seem to rival SawStop threads. 

JCLP, with all do respect and hopefully you don't think I'm trying to start an argument (devils advocate type of thing).  I get that you don't like having to send the saw in for service, especially since you use the saw to make a living. I don't think it is as simple based on the math and other reasons stated.  If it is really that simple, then why did you start this thread?  You ran the saw through your CT for 4 years, you should have expected the failure, laws of physics and all?  Didn't you read the manual during the 4 years?  Maybe it isn't so simple after all. 

I don't own the Kapex, just never felt the price was justified.  However, Festool stating that all there tools can be run through the CT, is somewhat BS.  By not recognizing or admitting that the motor burn ups reported are due to not enough amps, then it is poor design and Festool is speaking half truths and should be held accountable.  Most people, me included don't fully read manuals.  They preach the use of all tools as a system, but if the system causes failure then why shouldn't they be more transparent in the reasoning behind the failures.  As others have mentioned, the OF2200 and TS75 don't seem to have similar issues.  They should be more clear that all tools aren't to be used as part of the system approach, offer a better warranty on the Kapex, or redesign the Kapex and even the CT to handle the loads of all tools as a system.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:03 PM by Wooden Skye »
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

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Offline TXFIVEO

  • Posts: 198
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2018, 09:31 PM »
I had the Kapex and stand in my cart and ready to purchase but a voice in my head had me second guessing.  So I decided to stick with my work horse Dewalt DWS780. Have had it for three years with ZERO issues.  A beast.  If Festool would simply fix the known issue by replacing motors then I would be sold.  Until then, I will keep using the Dewalt. 

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 347
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2018, 02:53 AM »
I had the Kapex and stand in my cart and ready to purchase but a voice in my head had me second guessing.  So I decided to stick with my work horse Dewalt DWS780. Have had it for three years with ZERO issues.  A beast.  If Festool would simply fix the known issue by replacing motors then I would be sold.  Until then, I will keep using the Dewalt.

The Dewalt 780 is a workhorse you see in cabinet shops everywhere.  If you get part from Infinity Tools you can improve it’s cutting accuracy.

Hopefully Festool does more to resolve it’s Kapex issues.  It has the potential to be the top shop miter saw.  They can’t expect people to be confident in spending huge coin on the Kapex until they fix the motor.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 473
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2018, 11:41 AM »
a) The Dewalt 780 is a workhorse you see in cabinet shops everywhere.  If you get part from Infinity Tools you can improve it’s cutting accuracy.

Could you please elaborate a bit on this or post a link where I can find more info. on that? If my Kapex died, I would like to find a more reliable alternative.

b)  They can’t expect people to be confident in spending huge coin on the Kapex until they fix the motor.

Perhaps they are expecting that. Fair question: How many people who are considering to buy a Kapex know about its motor issue if they don't browse this Forum?

I did not until I bought the Kapex and became a member of this Forum. Had I read about all the "Kapex just died" stories during my search for a better mitre saw, the Kapex would have been ruled out, not for money factor but for reliability reasons. I never buy or own a new car that does not have a good reliability track record. All new cars are reliable until after the 5 or 6 year warranty period and that is when a reliable car matters.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 11:45 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 347
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2018, 01:49 PM »
a) The Dewalt 780 is a workhorse you see in cabinet shops everywhere.  If you get part from Infinity Tools you can improve it’s cutting accuracy.

Could you please elaborate a bit on this or post a link where I can find more info. on that? If my Kapex died, I would like to find a more reliable alternative.

b)  They can’t expect people to be confident in spending huge coin on the Kapex until they fix the motor.

Perhaps they are expecting that. Fair question: How many people who are considering to buy a Kapex know about its motor issue if they don't browse this Forum?

I did not until I bought the Kapex and became a member of this Forum. Had I read about all the "Kapex just died" stories during my search for a better mitre saw, the Kapex would have been ruled out, not for money factor but for reliability reasons. I never buy or own a new car that does not have a good reliability track record. All new cars are reliable until after the 5 or 6 year warranty period and that is when a reliable car matters.

They have a zero clearance at Infinity for the 780 along with better blades for a clean cut. 

https://www.infinitytools.com/saw-blades-accessories/miter-saw-blades-accessories/miter-saw-zero-clearance-inserts

The Kapex issues are well known on Twitter and Facebook.  It’s not just a forum discussion.  It’s something Festool needs to address.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2018, 02:13 PM »
So much talk has been spent about amps and draw and where you plug it in. My Dewalt and Hitachi have run thousands of cutts off a 100’ small gauge cord before and never had the motors burn up.  The kapex is made of glass and I wouldn’t buy it if it were half the price until they fix this lemon.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 473
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2018, 03:26 PM »
So much talk has been spent about amps and draw and where you plug it in.

And despite all that electrical precaution, it still does not give me any assurance that my Kapex won't die out of nowhere....

That -- not the money spent -- is the sad part. :-[

Offline Womble

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2018, 04:15 PM »
I have to agree, all this talk about you need a power supply that meets a specific criteria is just twaddle.

The real world just doesn't work like this & also even the tolerances allowed by the National Grid here in the UK can vary massively. I have never had any issues ever with any other brand of tools in 35yrs apart from Festool when it comes to being so poorly designed with power requirements.

It isn't just the Kapex the TS 55 is also massively under powered and will often spin in slow motion on longer cable runs whereas plug a Makita Circular saw into the same lead & it runs absolutely fine.But admittedly i am not aware of the TS55s going up in smoke like the Kapex's.  I do own a 110v Kapex KA60 & was very nervous about ordering it, but in the end i hoped Festool had addressed the 110v motor issues as it was a new model & any company would be beyond stupid to use the same components in a new product knowing their was issues with the originally used components.

The fact is these are supposed to be high end tools for professionals (but i do think quality has deteriorated over recent years) & as such should be properly designed to account for power voltage/amp fluctuations, every other major power tool manufacturer manages to do this & i honestly do not understand why Festool struggle with this.

Offline Green Mojo

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2018, 04:23 PM »
Yeah, it’s sad because either they know what is wrong and won’t fix it or they can’t figure out what is wrong. Not sure which one of those is worse.

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2018, 04:47 PM »
At this point they can’t say anything. If they did come out and report a flaw in the saw, you’d have tons of angry clients who had to pony up their hard earned money to fix their saws out of warranty.  I’d want my money back and I’d raise a heck of stink.  Remaining silent is what will keep them safe and I’m sure their high paid lawyers are telling them to keep quiet. Meanwhile they are driving their companies long excellent  reputation into the dirt.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2018, 04:51 AM »
TS 55 is also massively under powered and will often spin in slow motion on longer cable runs
This likely is the motor overheat protection kicking in: it massively throttles down the power to (and the RPM of) the motor, a cut won't be possible anymore as it will stall near instantly, but allows you to run the saw (while not in material) allowing the motor fan to remove the excess heat quickly.

Should it run slow from the start with a long extension cord: fix your power supply situation as it's clearly out of spec.

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 175
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2018, 12:24 PM »
And what about the guys like me that  don't run there Kapex through a dust extractor or an extension cord but have still burned up several motors currently on it's third. I'm so sick of hearing that you can't do this or that or you risk burning up your saw. I have 8 employees and tools from probably every major manufacture and have never experienced the failure rate I have had with Festool. This saw is simply flawed and for what ever reason it's obvious Festool is not going too acknowledge that fact or come up with any kind of solution. How is it that every other manufacture can make saws that last years without a single hiccup and at a fraction of the cost ? When my Kapex burns up it's current motor (not if but when) it's not getting it repaired but it's going in the trash and getting replaced by a more reliable and cheaper saw.

Offline Womble

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2018, 04:26 PM »
TS 55 is also massively under powered and will often spin in slow motion on longer cable runs
This likely is the motor overheat protection kicking in: it massively throttles down the power to (and the RPM of) the motor, a cut won't be possible anymore as it will stall near instantly, but allows you to run the saw (while not in material) allowing the motor fan to remove the excess heat quickly.

Should it run slow from the start with a long extension cord: fix your power supply situation as it's clearly out of spec.

Like i say other tools work perfectly ok & as expected on the very same long cable runs despite being "out of spec" but i do understand the issues of voltage drop & usually mitigate this by using the 32A outlets on power distribution boxes & then using a fly lead to drop down to 16A leads.

It isn't an issue of the overheat protection kicking in when the saw hasn't even done any cuts, it is a case of the saw being under powered & very poorly designed on the electronics speed control & power tolerances circuitry. The TS 55 REQ often bogs down and struggles to cut even 18mm MDF with no long cable runs & sharp blade.

I have also had the saws protection refuse to the start the saw as if the brushes were worn out, but when removed 99% of the brushes were still intact (the saw was less 1yr old at the time) however fitting new brushes instantly fixed the issue yet again pointing to flaws in the electronics on the TS 55 REQ. I also know of another person who has experienced this exact issue also.

I own quite a few Festool tools & have more on my to get list, but i honestly see absolutely no value at all in defending Festool & maming excuses for them on these known issues, the facts are that they need to fix these design issues, no if buts or maybes about it. Mafell do not suffer from these issues & as a result people are starting to jump ship & are willing the pay the extra premium in order to not experience these power & motor problems.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 865
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2018, 05:52 PM »
Looking forward to hear from Festool Canada service this coming week. Hopefully it will be an easy fix and not too costly.

JC

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 768
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2018, 08:11 PM »
And what about the guys like me that  don't run there Kapex through a dust extractor or an extension cord but have still burned up several motors currently on it's third. I'm so sick of hearing that you can't do this or that or you risk burning up your saw. I have 8 employees and tools from probably every major manufacture and have never experienced the failure rate I have had with Festool. This saw is simply flawed and for what ever reason it's obvious Festool is not going too acknowledge that fact or come up with any kind of solution. How is it that every other manufacture can make saws that last years without a single hiccup and at a fraction of the cost ? When my Kapex burns up it's current motor (not if but when) it's not getting it repaired but it's going in the trash and getting replaced by a more reliable and cheaper saw.

Pete the only possible cause in your situation, if the saw is plugged into a dedicated 15 amp socket, is a bad saw. Personally I would never own a 120V Kapex. The price alone is severly out to lunch. The reason you don't hear about failures from other makes is that they typically aren't run through an autostart DC like a lot of Kapex owners try to do. I believe the only way this saw should be sold in NA, to restore faith, would be to offer a 7 year motor/electronics warranty, most issues seem to occur after the 3 year warranty. It wouldn't cost them anything, there are enough people that would buy the saws that are oblivious to the problem. Unfortunately the marketing department doesn't have the brainpower to come up with this simple solution.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 389
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2018, 09:25 AM »
I just read somewhere that if the Kapex, or any other tool for that matter, is not able to draw enough amps, that you do run the risk of motor burn out over a period of time. So this got me thinking and decided to some reading.
 The Kapex manual, US version, says that the Kapex draws 13A ( 1600 W ) of power and the US manual for the CT26/36 says that the total connected load is 12A ( 1440W). I'm not an electrician but something smells fishy here. Kapex wants 13A but is only getting 12A. Can someone please explain this? My understanding of this is that the Kapex should not be connected to the CT26/36 and should be on it's own outlet, thus eliminating the Auto start function.


Cheers,
JC

Wondering why FestoolUSA produced that video if it is not recommended to use the vac outlet to power the saw.


You can clearly see (1:48) on the video that they plugged the Kapex into the CT outlet. That video was on FestoolUSA youtube channel March 19, 2018

Personally before buying any Festool tools I always watch the "Getting started" video from festoolUSA. I watch the videos to get an overview of the tool capability and how integrated it is with THE system. That video and several other videos have in some degree convinced me to buy their product.

Mario
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 09:41 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline alice

  • Posts: 57
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2018, 11:15 AM »
To reduce the risk of fire only connect tools rated at 3.7 amps ? Confused! Kapex 13 amps.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 865
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2018, 11:47 AM »
To reduce the risk of fire only connect tools rated at 3.7 amps ? Confused! Kapex 13 amps.
Interesting isn't it. If you take a look at the Rotex RO 125 it is rated at 500 watts. Using North American voltage numbers of 110V/120V this translates to 4.54 A and 4.16 A respectively. So, according to the warning sticker on the Kapex, it is not safe to use the Rotex 125. Now if you use the European voltage numbers of 220/240 you get 2.27A and 2.08 A respectively. Therefore 100% safe.
It would be interesting to go through the Festool line up for the North American models that use 110/120V and see which ones would be unsafe to use as per their, Festool's, admission on the warning sticker.

Cheers,
JC

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4591
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2018, 12:42 PM »

It would be interesting to go through the Festool line up for the North American models that use 110/120V and see which ones would be unsafe to use as per their, Festool's, admission on the warning sticker.


Anything that uses more than 444 watts...that's pretty much everything other than a few sanders, the Carvex and a Vecturo.

Offline copcarcollector

  • Posts: 1415
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2018, 05:54 PM »
I have used the Kapex hooked directly into a CT26, multiple times, at Festool training in Henderson NV. Never an issue with power draw.

Offline JCLP

  • Posts: 865
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2018, 06:15 PM »
I have used the Kapex hooked directly into a CT26, multiple times, at Festool training in Henderson NV. Never an issue with power draw.

With the ct drawing an average of 8.3A, it is not possible to draw the recommended amperage from a 15A circuit. 15A minus 8.3A only leaves about 7A for the Kapex. Low current and high current  will eventually destroy a motor. On a 240 Iine you get very lose to a total of 15A. I agree the saw will work with less current, but not ideal.

Offline Ripit

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2018, 06:23 PM »
I have used the Kapex hooked directly into a CT26, multiple times, at Festool training in Henderson NV. Never an issue with power draw.

With the ct drawing an average of 8.3A, it is not possible to draw the recommended amperage from a 15A circuit. 15A minus 8.3A only leaves about 7A for the Kapex. Low current and high current  will eventually destroy a motor. On a 240 Iine you get very lose to a total of 15A. I agree the saw will work with less current, but not ideal.

Where are you getting the average 8.3 from? You measured it? What does the CT draw under full load (that would be the rating in the manual of course) i think the kapex is like 13.3A full load at the spindle.

Offline Ripit

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2018, 06:23 PM »
Not sure why everyone is so fixated on the Kapex being hooked up to the extractor is what is causing the motor failures, the 3.7A rating is on the extractor isn't it? The risk of fire comes from drawing to much power through the conductors of the extractor not the saw, are the extractors going up in smoke as well?

Humm, I work in an engineering elec lab I may just have to do some testing...

Does anyone have an idea of how many unique individuals on FOG have had motor failures?
Does anyone know about the year that the motor failures started? How about how many kapex saws have been sold since that time?

Not trying to deny or confirm just curious...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 473
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2018, 06:36 PM »


Does anyone know about the year that the motor failures started? How about how many kapex saws have been sold since that time?

Not trying to deny or confirm just curious...

Only Festool has such information. No one else does.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 06:39 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3338
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2018, 07:26 PM »
Not sure why everyone is so fixated on the Kapex being hooked up to the extractor is what is causing the motor failures, the 3.7A rating is on the extractor isn't it? The risk of fire comes from drawing to much power through the conductors of the extractor not the saw, are the extractors going up in smoke as well?

Humm, I work in an engineering elec lab I may just have to do some testing...

Does anyone have an idea of how many unique individuals on FOG have had motor failures?
Does anyone know about the year that the motor failures started? How about how many kapex saws have been sold since that time?

Not trying to deny or confirm just curious...

Thanks for weighing in. Getting tired of reading the nonsense that the tools shouldn’t be plugged into the CT.

A significant “risk of fire” isn’t going to occur unless you keep everything running continuously for hours if not days on end. There have been very few reports of CTs burning up.

Whatever the specs on the vac the tool will pull all the amps it needs to run intermittently, which is how we use the things. If you run continuously wire gauge and voltage drop can become an issue.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 199
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2018, 09:57 PM »
The speculation about Kapex failures is all there is given the lack of any insight, information, context or advice on this issue from Festool.  The only people who have any facts on this issue are apparently dumbstruck and the silence is deafening to us Kapex owners!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4591
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2018, 11:09 PM »
Getting tired of reading the nonsense that the tools shouldn’t be plugged into the CT.

A significant “risk of fire” isn’t going to occur unless you keep everything running continuously for hours if not days on end. There have been very few reports of CTs burning up.

I agree with you Michael, however we shouldn’t be debating this issue amongst ourselves, this is a Festool corporate issue and they need to be the final arbiter.

Unfortunately they are apparently brain dead as they will not weigh in on anything controversial including updating the legalize of their own products. Really..............444 Watts, that’s the available current draw...that’s stupid, Festool clear the air, make a statement and stand by it.

As the Kapex issues pile up and these other wacky Festool corporate statements continue unabated, the earnest customer conversations and concerns become just noise in the background while Festool plods forward carrying their made in America banner and mouthing their “Festool part of a puzzle” mantra.

Oh and I almost forgot...Festool says “we have an imperial version of whatever tool you need, they’re labeled in imperial but unfortunately they’re only in metric increments”, now that’s really helpful.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 11:30 PM by Cheese »

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 389
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2018, 07:29 AM »
I understand that there is several reasons a motor will can be damaged during a normal use.

Things I try to keep in mind regarding the Kapex;
- Keep it clean (remove any dust around the motor casing),
- Run it at least once a week for a few seconds during idle periods (have a board in your shop with schedule maintenance),
- Always hold lumber tight against the back fence to prevent kick back and bearing damage,
- Use a dedicated outlet when possible (make sure you don't have a comp, fridge etc.. on the same circuit),
- What else? oh yeah play some music in the shop, tools love music and it also help to mitigate the grinding noise from the saw :P

This is my home work list to keep my power tools healthy and last longer.

Now on @Festool USA

Side note: The Kapex is one of the only variable speed saw if not the only one. It use a CB to control the speed and load to keep a constant speed. Why the electronics from the CB do NOT prevent/preserve the saw motor from damage when the source is over or under requirements?
Mario

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 473
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2018, 07:40 AM »

- What else? oh yeah play some music in the shop, tools love music and it also help to mitigate the grinding noise from the saw :P

This works even when you are in the hand tools only mode ;D.

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 97
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: Kapex just died
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2018, 09:54 AM »
I love my Festool tools. Having said that... I’m not a Festool “purist”.
I’ve noticed more and more QA problems with Festool the last few years -
As evidenced by we buyers/users of them -
Detailing more and more problems on the FOG.
I really wanted to buy the Kapex. But... Given of all its problems...
I glad to still be using my Bosch 5412L Compound Miter Saw.
I’ve had it hooked up (“auto” on) to my - Industrial Steel Deluxe Cyclone (all metal) Dust Deputy and Festool CT33 DC - For YEARS.
It’s accurate to less than a tenth of a degree (good enough for me)...
And cuts “like butter” - All day long.
Cost: Around $600 when I bought it.

Sometimes... Festool - At 2X’s or 3X’s the cost...
Just doesn’t add any value. And, it seems to be happening -
Sadly - More and more.
Joe
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 09:59 AM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, HL 850 Planer, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)