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Author Topic: Kapex up in smoke 4th time  (Read 34155 times)

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Offline travisj

  • Posts: 189
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 07:12 PM »
I have come close to pulling the trigger on a Kapex several times.  It seems every time I get myself talked into it, more issues arise on the Fog or other online resources and I back off again.  My dealer hasn't had any issues with any of the Kapex's he is aware of, but he understands my hesitation.  Our local Festool Rep is no longer with the company, so that resource is at this point invalid.  Festool's internal investigation seems to be taking an eternity.  It almost seems that if they keep the investigation ongoing, eventually it will be irrelevant.

Between the Pro5 sanders that are/were messed up and the Kapex issues, Festool isn't coming off with the best quality representation as they push into the imperial market.

As for Garry's crowd funding idea, that fund is fully funded by the profit to Festool from everyone who purchased a Kapex.


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Offline fritter63

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  • Posts: 1380
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2017, 12:10 AM »
Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2017, 01:03 AM »
Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

Sure it is possible in theory.
Perhaps he could run other tools on the circuit?
Without someone with an oscilloscope inline with the saw, can provide the traces, then I cannot say it is not it is not the power.

However with all the electronics in the tools, as well as the tools being 'for professionals'... then one would assume that they should be able to run (for instance) on gen-sets and in industrial situations.
Ideally the tool would have protective circuits to save them such as 'over temp' sensors, as many tools do have.

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 116
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2017, 09:40 AM »
This is not the only person reporting motor failures on a Kapex. Focusing so much on his environment seems pretty short sighted.

I've only worked with one on a limited basis for a few days, but the impression I came away with of them was that they seemed to not be high quality units. This is only based upon my ephemeral gut feelings of the sound, feel, & appearance of using one, and has no factual basis. They feel gimmicky and flimsy to me compared to other units that seem to be considerably more robust. My Bosch Glide saw just "sounds" and "feels" to be a sturdier saw.

I get the same feelings about my TS55 as I did about the Kapex. It just doesn't "seem" up to the task compared to the Dewalt track saw that I sold in order to buy it. It sounds and feels under-powered and always straining compared to the Dewalt motor. Perhaps this is just because the Dewalt is between the 55 & 75 in size and power, but I wish I still had my Dewalt.

I am enjoying the Festool "system", and the 55 is doing everything I ask of it. It just doesn't intrinsically give the feeling of confidence that other branded tools give me. Festool motors just sound and feel weak or under powered for the job to me.

Oddly enough my new OF2200 is exactly the opposite, and instills complete confidence in it's abilities, and stands out as the premier product in it's class.

Bottom line - this continuing saga over reports of multiple Kapex owners reporting problems, and the seeming recalcitrance of Festool to make those owners whole, casts a poor light on them. This is a company that asks a premium price for it's products, and sells itself on superior quality and service.

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.

When you return a product multiple times for the same issue and the problem keeps resurfacing it may fall under the "lemon" law in the state where it was purchased. In Louisiana, where I am, it is 3 times.

Most reputable dealers would replace the product or buy it back after 3 unsuccessful attempts at repair.

I for one have no interest in a Kapex until a major retrofit is announced AND proves successful, or a new model replaces it and proves successful.

No matter how many bells and whistles you hang off of it....
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1916
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 10:07 AM »
If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.
+1

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 10:43 AM »
If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.

Just for the record ..................

Quote from the TS55REQ Recall notice posted on FOG under the board heading for the recall.

             "The FastFix plunge lock may engage when not intended, causing the saw blade to remain exposed from the housing following completion of the plunge cut."


http://festoolownersgroup.com/ts-55-req-recall/important-product-safety-recall-notice-ts-55-req/


Seth

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1916
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 11:09 AM »
Thanks Seth. In the midst of it the cause was quite mysterious, and I'm not sure what part was changed.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:31 PM by Paul G »
+1

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 285
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 11:44 AM »
Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 575
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 11:50 AM »

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.


Mafell is not even close to being a recent entry. Been available for sale in the US for a very long time. There was only one reseller until recently and even the second one is just reselling for the first (Timberwolf Tools). Prior to Timberwolf there was another company.

Festool has a massive array of tools and accessories, which may be the problem (engineering time spread too thin). If you look at a company like Mafell they don't make a huge selection of anything and have very few accessories for the tools they do make.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1042
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 12:19 PM »
Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.
Same here. Plus with AcmeTools holiday 20% off coupon I was able to get the GCM12SD for $450 shipped! Couldnt pass it up!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline waho6o9

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    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2017, 12:43 PM »
ghostofhoward should receive a new Kapex.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3514
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2017, 01:07 PM »
On a sheer probabilities scale, the fact that this machine has burned out 4 times  for the same person could indicate any number of causes. There is definitely a correlation of the OP, his Kapex and his environment but there are too many variables to come to any conclusions about causation. In other words, correlation does not imply causation.
Tim

Offline Trevin

  • Posts: 78
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2017, 02:09 PM »
Dear Festool,In case you need help underatanding the issue.

Fix this "PROBLEM!"
In case you need help understanding the issue.

problem
[prob-luh m]
Spell  Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
any question or matter involving doubt, uncertainty, or difficulty.
2.
a question proposed for solution or discussion.
3.
Mathematics. a statement requiring a solution, usually by means of a mathematical operation or geometric construction.
adjective
4.
difficult to train or guide; unruly:
a problem child.
5.
Literature. dealing with choices of action difficult either for an individual or for society at large:
a problem play.
Idioms
6.
no problem, (used as a conventional reply to a request or to express confirmation, affirmation, or gratitude).

That said, posted, I bought one of your "SAWS" and I EXPECT it to outlast the Dewalt it replaced for 3X the cost. 

Dont make me pull a Madonna on your white house...  too funny, could not resist that one..

Trevin
Festool: MFT3 (x2), OF1010, OF1400, LR32, Domino DF500, Domino XL DF700, Kapex KS120, TS-75, Carvex 420, CXS, C-18, Vecturo OS 400, DTS 400, Pro 5, Rotex 125, VAC-PMP, VAC-SYS-1, VAC-SYS-2, CT-26 (x2), CT-SYS, SYS Light DUO, SYS-ROCK
Other: Minmax FS41, Sawstop PCS (3HP, 52"), Laguna BX14, Jet 17" Drill Press, Rikon 70-220VSR Lathe, Incra LS Router Station, Laguna P/Flux 3 Dust Collector

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2017, 03:23 PM »
On a sheer probabilities scale, the fact that this machine has burned out 4 times  for the same person could indicate any number of causes. There is definitely a correlation of the OP, his Kapex and his environment but there are too many variables to come to any conclusions about causation. In other words, correlation does not imply causation.
Tim

Nice use of "correlation does not prove causality"... but the power angle does fit into either "alternative facts" or 'alternating current' facts.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 729
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2017, 04:20 PM »
Bought a 12" Bosch a little over 10 years ago, and it's doing just fine.  It's the pre-Glide model, but it is -very- accurate and I have it set up in a shop with very good dust collection.  As much as I am learning to love my other Festool tools, I can't see why I'd buy a Kapex with these kinds of reliability issues lurking.

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 04:27 PM »

Nice use of "correlation does not prove causality"... but the power angle does fit into either "alternative facts" or 'alternating current' facts.

Thanks, i could have gone into shared truth vs. relative truth vs. absolute truth but i would have typed more. [wink]
Tim

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 376
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 04:46 PM »
the glide is a boat achor, that is not only heavy but awkward to carry as its best to carry it from behind. Stairs just suck. Poor dust collection, clunky bevel adjust ( if stops need to be adjusted forget it),try setting the bevel to a non stop position it will move down another couple of degrees before locking as per the manual,  no laser, no light, no soft start, annoying safety switch. It does seem to have good power and of course smooth glide action. Of course the euro versions have soft start, dual lasers, 22.5 bevel stop, and a good blade. Just another german company giving us the shaft. What sucks about kapex issues is how good it is in other ways.

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 285
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 06:06 PM »
No question the Bosch Glide weighs a lot. But I don't move mine from site to site. It stays in one spot. I have my 36 mm hose attached to it and the dust extraction is very good. And best of all it is still on its original motor.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 07:16 PM »
My Bosch glide with the kapex plastic dust shrowd has very good dust collection. I'd say if you compared it to the kapex you'd be splitting hairs. It's not light, but its sturdy with a powerful motor and it and it hasn't had a hiccup.  Love the bevel lock and adjusting the stops isn't hard once you've read the manual.  For a laser there are many cheap washers for the blade bolt with built in lasers and they work very well. Please make a better kapex festool. We all want it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:24 PM by Jaybolishes »

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 09:29 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2017, 05:45 AM »
And why wouldn't it just as likely be the saw which hasn't been properly fixed each time? Same guy and same saw JUST SAYIN!

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2017, 10:44 AM »
My Bosch glide with the kapex plastic dust shrowd has very good dust collection. I'd say if you compared it to the kapex you'd be splitting hairs. It's not light, but its sturdy with a powerful motor and it and it hasn't had a hiccup.  Love the bevel lock and adjusting the stops isn't hard once you've read the manual.  For a laser there are many cheap washers for the blade bolt with built in lasers and they work very well. Please make a better kapex festool. We all want it.

I have both these saws (10 inch Bosch axial glide) and even with the Festool dust boot retrofitted onto the Bosch which does improve the Bosch versus its stock boot which is shorter than the Kapex boot, the Kapex is significantly better imo.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2017, 07:31 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

You could be right, the user's usage pattern might be a factor.  Maybe even a big factor.  That said, I've followed the Kapex motor threads on here from the onset of the issue being reported on the FOG.  There have been plenty of people having their saw's fail multiple times.  Most, if not all, of the them say they aren't doing anything differently than they have with every other miter saw they have owned.  So, if all the other brand saws hold up for these users, but the Kapex doesn't, what does that say? 

Keep in mind all the reports here are anecdotal.  We can't draw any meaningful conclusions with the info we get here.  Festool has stated there isn't a problem, I can't refute that with any concrete evidence.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2017, 12:08 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 911
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2017, 02:16 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Interesting but my 240v Kapex gets up to speed almost instantly, certainly up to speed by the time the blade touches the material. Does the USA version take longer to get up to full speed.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2017, 08:23 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Interesting but my 240v Kapex gets up to speed almost instantly, certainly up to speed by the time the blade touches the material. Does the USA version take longer to get up to full speed.

It may.  I'm no expert in motors, but I myself converted everything I had to that could work on either 120V or 240V to 240V simply because it is easier on start up for the motors per what other people have asserted on the subject.  I did that for no other reason actually.  Curious, are all these motor burnouts 120V wired motors?   
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2017, 11:01 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2017, 11:06 PM »
Also, tomorrow will be day 14 since Festool received my saw for repairs. I finally got through to Brett 2 days ago and after a lot of searching, he found my paperwork and said the saw was fixed. No telling how many days it was sitting there waiting for them to call me for CC info  [mad]. Hopefully I'll get it tomorrow.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2017, 06:11 AM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

I'm a 'fanboy' because I state the obvious question anybody would have?  Maybe you should stop using your Kapex where the sun doesn't shine! 
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2017, 07:09 AM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

I'm a 'fanboy' because I state the obvious question anybody would have?  Maybe you should stop using your Kapex where the sun doesn't shine!

One would have a correlation of the same tool burning up 4x; for both bad use, as well as an individually bad tool.
It could point to either mechanism as the cause.

Claiming head->tailpipe asthe cause, may not be helpful to up understanding the true... Even though it is a possibility.