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Author Topic: Kapex up in smoke 4th time  (Read 33866 times)

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Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« on: January 07, 2017, 09:22 PM »
Well, it's happened again!! 1 year and a few days after getting my Kapex back from repairing motor failure #3 it burned up again.
I have kid-gloved this thing from the moment I bought it. Been careful to use sharp blades, don't make heavy cuts etc, etc. I have even started using a separate circuit to run the dust extractor to ensure it (kapex) always gets sufficient power. Still burned up. It has been used only moderately in the last 12 months, some in my shop, some on the jobsite. It is NOT a power supply issue, it is NOT an issue of misusing the saw. Just simply has a flaw in the motor that Festool refuses or is unable to correct. I am so sick of dealing with this. I may have to make use of the 30 day return policy for a few saws/months.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:33 PM by ghostofhoward »

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Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 175
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 09:58 PM »
I feel your pain our shop Kapex will be 2 years old in February and already on it's third motor and I think it's starting to go again. It' a shame that Festool wants to act like there is not a problem I guess they simply just don't care. There's one thing you can bet your  on the piece of junk is  going up in price come April!!!   

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2632
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 10:03 PM »
I feel . . . . . . . . . There's one thing you can bet your  on the piece of junk is  going up in price come April!!!

Well it did down here on Jan 1.

Although now, later in the year, I am more enclined to get the new 60. [See how they shape up with others experiences first!  [big grin]] And if warranted later replace my Makita SCS with a Metabo. I am currently working on decking and finding my HK55 has replaced any need for a SCS for this task.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 10:10 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4451
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 01:38 AM »
The cool thing about different languages, is that if you're clever...you can use that to your advantage. 

Kapex issues...say what?

Ich habe keine idee.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 01:41 AM by Cheese »

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 70
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 04:43 AM »
I've always though of buying a Kapex for the shop but I keep reading about these issues...

I own three DeWalt DWS780's, one lives in the shop and the other two are out on site. The site saws definitely get abused being thrown in the vans, materials, ladders ect; put in and on top of them. All are about three years old i think and we've never had any issues with any of them.

The blade guard came loose once on one saw once and that is honestly the only issue with years of heavy use on all three saws. There checked once weekly for accuracy and still cut as good as they did when bought. Only down sides, heavy, awqward to carry and you need allot of space around the saw to use it.

I think they are currently £600 in the UK. Think I will stick with these until a new model Kapex comes out! Anyone know if this is in the works or not?

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 175
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 12:31 PM »
I agree about the DeWalt 780's other than the Kapex we have three that live in the shop or on site and never had an issue with any of them. With a proper setup and good blade they cut just as good as the Kapex. They may lack a few features and be a little heavier than the Kapex but  they cost a fraction about $600 here in the states and there dependable. I use my tools professionally to make a living the last thing I need to worry about is if a saw will  make it through a job or not and that I have to waste my time packing it up to send of for repair AGAIN!!!! The Kapex was one of the worst Festool purchase I have ever made and even if they come out with a newer version I won't even consider it especially they way I feel they have handles this whole issue.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 01:33 PM »
Yea I have avoided the Kapex not just because of the price, but also due to the 110V version problems I have heard so many complain about. I have had the DWS780 for a couple years and now recently picked up the Bosch GCM12SD 12" Glide due to the less rear clearance space needed and so far have been liking it more than the DeWalt. But I cant see myself going with a Kapex unless they come out with a new version and its been out for a year or two, or they drastically reduce the price of it for some weird reason.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 02:35 PM »
Yea I have avoided the Kapex not just because of the price, but also due to the 110V version problems I have heard so many complain about. I have had the DWS780 for a couple years and now recently picked up the Bosch GCM12SD 12" Glide due to the less rear clearance space needed and so far have been liking it more than the DeWalt. But I cant see myself going with a Kapex unless they come out with a new version and its been out for a year or two, or they drastically reduce the price of it for some weird reason.

It's not just 110v. Yes there are more 110v tools that have been reported for going bad, but 240v also have their issues. I don't believe it is a case of 110v vs 240v, but a case that there is a common fault across both voltages, but the 110v has a lesser tolerance to whatever the fault is, not that the fault only resides with 110v.

Complete new saw with a new motor is required to put the whole debacle behind Festool.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 02:54 PM »
My backup saw is a DWS780 as well. It's going on 13 years old and gets used for everything too dirty or rough for the Kapex, framing, decks, even fiber cement for a house or two. The ONLY thing I have ever done with it is change blades. The detents have gotten sloppy in the last couple of years but I have been very happy with it. I will almost certainly be buying another soon to UPGRADE from the kapex. Sad.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 03:52 PM by ghostofhoward »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 03:12 PM »
I was about to buy a Kapex a few years back, so glad I didn't. My sympathies, what an aggravating mess.
+1

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 04:37 PM »
Whats really terrible though is that with so many people having issues I havent heard of them extending the 3 year warranty to cover those that ended up having issues after the warranty period was up. These issues are obviously due to a design flaw and IMO it should be fixed and recall done instead of just abandoning people when their motor fails after 3 years.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 175
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 05:02 PM »
I agree it would seem to be in Festool's best interest to acknowledge there's a design flaw or do a recall for those of use that are stuck with these obviously faulty saws. I don't know about the rest of you but this whole situation has really tarnished my views of Festool.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 06:34 PM »
It would appear that Festool doesn't care about their perceived reputation with regards to Kapex.

They seemingly feel:

1. Nothing is wrong
2. You are obviously using it incorrectly if English is your native language.
3. Their sales of Kapex are sufficient , and the line of lambs long , so as to make it unprofitable to address a problem real or perceived.      If there is problem.  ::) ::)

Which there's not - see number 1.

It's been at least six months, maybe longer since the brass came on here and said they're looking into it.  Not one peep from anyone official regarding this , yet people keep reporting this tool's maladies in disproportionate number to anything else on here.

I cannot believe that that a company that has positioned themselves at the top of the heap can't find the engineering prowess to work out what's causing this saw's motor to fail in such a short timespan.  I could believe they have and wouldn't want to disclose for fear of breaking the bank. 




Offline duburban

  • Posts: 915
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 06:41 PM »
Have you checked your power source all the way back to the power plant? I'm sure its just dirty power.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 175
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 07:13 PM »
Yeah better call the electric company and tell them they owe me a new Kapex for all that dirty power they are supplying me with. Oh but wait a minute I keep forgetting the rest of the shop equipment is running just fine but then again it's built to higher standards 

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 07:14 PM »
Have you checked your power source all the way back to the power plant? I'm sure its just dirty power.

Not a problem around here, we mostly use hydroelectric instead of coal [poke]
+1

Offline amt

  • Posts: 374
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 07:18 PM »
I wonder if anyone would sell their broken Kapex for cheap.  For the right price, I'd be temped to swap in a 3-phase spindle motor + VFD.  Anyone know what the Kapex motor RPM range is (not the blade RPM, but the motor before any gear reduction)?  Would probably need some custom parts CNC'd, but would be a cool project.  Think of advantages: very fast start-up and motor brake, significantly more power, eliminate the reliability problem, dial in exact RPM you want, etc.

Offline rgarthe

  • Posts: 3
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2017, 10:08 PM »
It would appear that Festool doesn't care about their perceived reputation with regards to Kapex.

They seemingly feel:

1. Nothing is wrong
2. You are obviously using it incorrectly if English is your native language.
3. Their sales of Kapex are sufficient , and the line of lambs long , so as to make it unprofitable to address a problem real or perceived.      If there is problem.  ::) ::)

Which there's not - see number 1.

It's been at least six months, maybe longer since the brass came on here and said they're looking into it.  Not one peep from anyone official regarding this , yet people keep reporting this tool's maladies in disproportionate number to anything else on here.

I cannot believe that that a company that has positioned themselves at the top of the heap can't find the engineering prowess to work out what's causing this saw's motor to fail in such a short timespan.  I could believe they have and wouldn't want to disclose for fear of breaking the bank.


German arrogance is a problem. I work with a person from Germany and he thinks he is better than many of his coworkers. I get the same thing from the VW dealer where I purchased my new Rutan from; which by the way has several problems they cannot fix, or do know know how to fix. Germany engineering is not what it use to be. I think I made a bad choice buying the Kaypex.
Rick

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 8368
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2017, 11:49 PM »
How about we don't denigrate an entire nationality.

Seth

Offline G-Man

  • Posts: 6
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2017, 03:07 AM »
Hmm shame about all the problems, i was seriously looking at the Kapex 120 but I have been reading all week about the 110v issues and now all these motors burning out [sad] I think I'll save myself £1000 and look at others.

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 59
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2017, 12:27 PM »
have to agree with a few posters here.  I was ready to buy a Kapex but now I am looking at alternatives.  I know there are thousands of them out there working for years, but there also seem to be quite a few that are not working.  If Festool does not talk to us, we will make up our own numbers and scare ourselves.  I don't want to risk being one those that don't work so I am looking at alternatives.

 Instead of ignoring the problem, Festool needs to take a business 101 class, one of the things they will learn is "talk to your customers, if you ignore them, your competition will talk to them"   Only Festool knows the seriousness of this problem and only they know if it is even a real problem or a internet problem.  One of the problems with the internet is that when things are working fine, most people don't go on the net and say so, when they don't work the net is the first place they complain, so sometimes things appear worse than they really are, but in this case the silence from Festool makes it appear true.

 I will be buying the competition since they are talking to me...let me tell you a story...At the last dealer day at my local tool store (a dealer day is a day where company representatives show up and talk and demo their tools, usually goes along with a BBQ so I go there for lunch :) ) I was looking at the Makita saw and mentioned I was thinking Kapex, the Makita representative told me to google Kapex motor failures and compare that to a google of Makita motor failures, hint that was the competition talking to me.  Festool didnt have a rep at this dealer day so the store had their Festool salesdroid there and his answer to that was that Festool would take care of it while under warranty but could not answer my question about what happens after the warranty, except to say that Festool is one of the best.

 Right now, I am still getting by with my 12" slider but I really need better accuracy (repeatability)
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 491
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2017, 01:23 PM »
 Thanks, @Seth
Just for today..

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1052
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 02:58 PM »
In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results. :)

It's hard to understand the magnitude of such issues. The manufacturer has an opportunity to do something here, unfortunately the fear (and consequence) of saying the wrong thing paralyzes most. It really would be nice to hear something though.
-Raj

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 59
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 03:17 PM »
In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results. :)
Yes that search does return plenty.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline Green Koolaide

  • Posts: 109
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2017, 01:08 AM »
Where there is smoke there is a Kapex.

Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emisions scandal?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:39 PM by Green Koolaide »
"Five out of every four people have problems with fractions"

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4451
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emmsion scandal?

Probably not...one is the disregard for federal law whereas the other is a disregard for common courtesy and admission of culpability.

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1655
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2017, 04:58 AM »
I try to keep out of these discussions, but this one I'm intrigued with.

I'm not a statistician, so I can only go by "gut feel", but having four motor replacements on one Kapex would either mean @Rollin22Petes is incredibly unlucky, or there's an external influence of some sort that affects these motors in a way Festool hasn't designed for. It seems to be in Festool's best interest to identify this external influence as anecdotally it doesn't affect other equipment in the same location used in the same way with the same frequency.

Perhaps with the previous service records for this Kapex, the latest motor failure as evidence that can be investigated thoroughly, and the support of @Rollin22Petes in any local investigation, Festool could take the opportunity to engage an appropriate contractor to analyse things like the local power supply provision etc. to see if an issue or pattern can be identified.

Assuming of course an issue hasn't already been identified that isn't being publicly disclosed.

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?

If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.

I'd like to find some sort of resolution to this particular ongoing issue because, even though I'm not personally affected by it(disclosure: my KAPEX is 230V and works brilliantly),  I am disappointed that Festool are not more forthcoming with information, especially given previous threads where we've been led to believe we would receive some feedback when experiences were asked for.

It doesn't put me off buying a KAPEX, but it does detract from my expectation of Festool with regard to how important their customer voice is. And that dissatisfaction spreads to more than just a single product, and it grows whilst the vacuum of official investigation and response continues.

I hold you up to high standards Festool; don't disappoint.




Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2017, 08:34 AM »

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2017, 12:52 PM »

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

What you say makes perfect sense and is largely a rational response. However to say it "takes some time" is underplaying just how slowly Festool are moving with this - glacial erosion springs to mind.

They're basic  electrical  motors we're talking about diagnosing here, not the formula for perpetual motion!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 01:06 PM by bobfog »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 06:20 PM »
You had a very articulate and well reasoned post.

However... With respect to this part:

...
If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.
...

Implicitly suggesting that FOG crowd source it in some "pay it forward" scheme just goes against my grain.
It is Festool's total responsibility and total profit, so IMO they should solely fund Festool's analysis.

The space shuttle, being funded by NASA (Via taxes)... I am fine with funding (as it generally helps all of mankind), but Festool's motor failures analysis only helps Festool.
Therefore I feel no responsibility to in any way guide Festool or fund their analysis.

If a University were working on some new motor for the general populous or mankind, then I would be open to hearing their arguments and pleas for funding.

At this point I would just buy a Metabo or a Bosch, and for a Hybrid a Tesla, Honda, or Prius... Assuming that Chev/Ford are not making a viable <electric> motors.

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 189
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2017, 07:12 PM »
I have come close to pulling the trigger on a Kapex several times.  It seems every time I get myself talked into it, more issues arise on the Fog or other online resources and I back off again.  My dealer hasn't had any issues with any of the Kapex's he is aware of, but he understands my hesitation.  Our local Festool Rep is no longer with the company, so that resource is at this point invalid.  Festool's internal investigation seems to be taking an eternity.  It almost seems that if they keep the investigation ongoing, eventually it will be irrelevant.

Between the Pro5 sanders that are/were messed up and the Kapex issues, Festool isn't coming off with the best quality representation as they push into the imperial market.

As for Garry's crowd funding idea, that fund is fully funded by the profit to Festool from everyone who purchased a Kapex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline fritter63

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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2017, 12:10 AM »
Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2017, 01:03 AM »
Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

Sure it is possible in theory.
Perhaps he could run other tools on the circuit?
Without someone with an oscilloscope inline with the saw, can provide the traces, then I cannot say it is not it is not the power.

However with all the electronics in the tools, as well as the tools being 'for professionals'... then one would assume that they should be able to run (for instance) on gen-sets and in industrial situations.
Ideally the tool would have protective circuits to save them such as 'over temp' sensors, as many tools do have.

Offline SouthRider

  • Posts: 111
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2017, 09:40 AM »
This is not the only person reporting motor failures on a Kapex. Focusing so much on his environment seems pretty short sighted.

I've only worked with one on a limited basis for a few days, but the impression I came away with of them was that they seemed to not be high quality units. This is only based upon my ephemeral gut feelings of the sound, feel, & appearance of using one, and has no factual basis. They feel gimmicky and flimsy to me compared to other units that seem to be considerably more robust. My Bosch Glide saw just "sounds" and "feels" to be a sturdier saw.

I get the same feelings about my TS55 as I did about the Kapex. It just doesn't "seem" up to the task compared to the Dewalt track saw that I sold in order to buy it. It sounds and feels under-powered and always straining compared to the Dewalt motor. Perhaps this is just because the Dewalt is between the 55 & 75 in size and power, but I wish I still had my Dewalt.

I am enjoying the Festool "system", and the 55 is doing everything I ask of it. It just doesn't intrinsically give the feeling of confidence that other branded tools give me. Festool motors just sound and feel weak or under powered for the job to me.

Oddly enough my new OF2200 is exactly the opposite, and instills complete confidence in it's abilities, and stands out as the premier product in it's class.

Bottom line - this continuing saga over reports of multiple Kapex owners reporting problems, and the seeming recalcitrance of Festool to make those owners whole, casts a poor light on them. This is a company that asks a premium price for it's products, and sells itself on superior quality and service.

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.

When you return a product multiple times for the same issue and the problem keeps resurfacing it may fall under the "lemon" law in the state where it was purchased. In Louisiana, where I am, it is 3 times.

Most reputable dealers would replace the product or buy it back after 3 unsuccessful attempts at repair.

I for one have no interest in a Kapex until a major retrofit is announced AND proves successful, or a new model replaces it and proves successful.

No matter how many bells and whistles you hang off of it....
"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, that we are now qualified to do almost anything, with nothing at all."

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 10:07 AM »
If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.
+1

Offline SRSemenza

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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 10:43 AM »
If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.

Just for the record ..................

Quote from the TS55REQ Recall notice posted on FOG under the board heading for the recall.

             "The FastFix plunge lock may engage when not intended, causing the saw blade to remain exposed from the housing following completion of the plunge cut."


http://festoolownersgroup.com/ts-55-req-recall/important-product-safety-recall-notice-ts-55-req/


Seth

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1914
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 11:09 AM »
Thanks Seth. In the midst of it the cause was quite mysterious, and I'm not sure what part was changed.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:31 PM by Paul G »
+1

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 285
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 11:44 AM »
Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 567
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 11:50 AM »

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.


Mafell is not even close to being a recent entry. Been available for sale in the US for a very long time. There was only one reseller until recently and even the second one is just reselling for the first (Timberwolf Tools). Prior to Timberwolf there was another company.

Festool has a massive array of tools and accessories, which may be the problem (engineering time spread too thin). If you look at a company like Mafell they don't make a huge selection of anything and have very few accessories for the tools they do make.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 12:19 PM »
Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.
Same here. Plus with AcmeTools holiday 20% off coupon I was able to get the GCM12SD for $450 shipped! Couldnt pass it up!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1331
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2017, 12:43 PM »
ghostofhoward should receive a new Kapex.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3506
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2017, 01:07 PM »
On a sheer probabilities scale, the fact that this machine has burned out 4 times  for the same person could indicate any number of causes. There is definitely a correlation of the OP, his Kapex and his environment but there are too many variables to come to any conclusions about causation. In other words, correlation does not imply causation.
Tim

Offline Trevin

  • Posts: 78
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2017, 02:09 PM »
Dear Festool,In case you need help underatanding the issue.

Fix this "PROBLEM!"
In case you need help understanding the issue.

problem
[prob-luh m]
Spell  Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1.
any question or matter involving doubt, uncertainty, or difficulty.
2.
a question proposed for solution or discussion.
3.
Mathematics. a statement requiring a solution, usually by means of a mathematical operation or geometric construction.
adjective
4.
difficult to train or guide; unruly:
a problem child.
5.
Literature. dealing with choices of action difficult either for an individual or for society at large:
a problem play.
Idioms
6.
no problem, (used as a conventional reply to a request or to express confirmation, affirmation, or gratitude).

That said, posted, I bought one of your "SAWS" and I EXPECT it to outlast the Dewalt it replaced for 3X the cost. 

Dont make me pull a Madonna on your white house...  too funny, could not resist that one..

Trevin
Festool: MFT3 (x2), OF1010, OF1400, LR32, Domino DF500, Domino XL DF700, Kapex KS120, TS-75, Carvex 420, CXS, C-18, Vecturo OS 400, DTS 400, Pro 5, Rotex 125, VAC-PMP, VAC-SYS-1, VAC-SYS-2, CT-26 (x2), CT-SYS, SYS Light DUO, SYS-ROCK
Other: Minmax FS41, Sawstop PCS (3HP, 52"), Laguna BX14, Jet 17" Drill Press, Rikon 70-220VSR Lathe, Incra LS Router Station, Laguna P/Flux 3 Dust Collector

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2017, 03:23 PM »
On a sheer probabilities scale, the fact that this machine has burned out 4 times  for the same person could indicate any number of causes. There is definitely a correlation of the OP, his Kapex and his environment but there are too many variables to come to any conclusions about causation. In other words, correlation does not imply causation.
Tim

Nice use of "correlation does not prove causality"... but the power angle does fit into either "alternative facts" or 'alternating current' facts.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 725
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2017, 04:20 PM »
Bought a 12" Bosch a little over 10 years ago, and it's doing just fine.  It's the pre-Glide model, but it is -very- accurate and I have it set up in a shop with very good dust collection.  As much as I am learning to love my other Festool tools, I can't see why I'd buy a Kapex with these kinds of reliability issues lurking.

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3506
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 04:27 PM »

Nice use of "correlation does not prove causality"... but the power angle does fit into either "alternative facts" or 'alternating current' facts.

Thanks, i could have gone into shared truth vs. relative truth vs. absolute truth but i would have typed more. [wink]
Tim

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 368
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 04:46 PM »
the glide is a boat achor, that is not only heavy but awkward to carry as its best to carry it from behind. Stairs just suck. Poor dust collection, clunky bevel adjust ( if stops need to be adjusted forget it),try setting the bevel to a non stop position it will move down another couple of degrees before locking as per the manual,  no laser, no light, no soft start, annoying safety switch. It does seem to have good power and of course smooth glide action. Of course the euro versions have soft start, dual lasers, 22.5 bevel stop, and a good blade. Just another german company giving us the shaft. What sucks about kapex issues is how good it is in other ways.

Offline SS Teach

  • Posts: 285
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 06:06 PM »
No question the Bosch Glide weighs a lot. But I don't move mine from site to site. It stays in one spot. I have my 36 mm hose attached to it and the dust extraction is very good. And best of all it is still on its original motor.
RTS 400, LS 130, Sandpaper Systainer, Profile Systainer. ETS 125, Sandpaper Systainer, Ro 90, Sandpaper Systainer,  Ro 150, Sandpaper Systainer, OF 1400, TS 55 REQ, CT36, CXS Li 1.5 Set, Centrotec Wood-Drill-Set/8pcs, CT Wings, Surfix Set. Domino 500, Domino Systainer, Parallel Guide

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 07:16 PM »
My Bosch glide with the kapex plastic dust shrowd has very good dust collection. I'd say if you compared it to the kapex you'd be splitting hairs. It's not light, but its sturdy with a powerful motor and it and it hasn't had a hiccup.  Love the bevel lock and adjusting the stops isn't hard once you've read the manual.  For a laser there are many cheap washers for the blade bolt with built in lasers and they work very well. Please make a better kapex festool. We all want it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:24 PM by Jaybolishes »

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2017, 09:29 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 579
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2017, 05:45 AM »
And why wouldn't it just as likely be the saw which hasn't been properly fixed each time? Same guy and same saw JUST SAYIN!

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2017, 10:44 AM »
My Bosch glide with the kapex plastic dust shrowd has very good dust collection. I'd say if you compared it to the kapex you'd be splitting hairs. It's not light, but its sturdy with a powerful motor and it and it hasn't had a hiccup.  Love the bevel lock and adjusting the stops isn't hard once you've read the manual.  For a laser there are many cheap washers for the blade bolt with built in lasers and they work very well. Please make a better kapex festool. We all want it.

I have both these saws (10 inch Bosch axial glide) and even with the Festool dust boot retrofitted onto the Bosch which does improve the Bosch versus its stock boot which is shorter than the Kapex boot, the Kapex is significantly better imo.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7329
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Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2017, 07:31 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

You could be right, the user's usage pattern might be a factor.  Maybe even a big factor.  That said, I've followed the Kapex motor threads on here from the onset of the issue being reported on the FOG.  There have been plenty of people having their saw's fail multiple times.  Most, if not all, of the them say they aren't doing anything differently than they have with every other miter saw they have owned.  So, if all the other brand saws hold up for these users, but the Kapex doesn't, what does that say? 

Keep in mind all the reports here are anecdotal.  We can't draw any meaningful conclusions with the info we get here.  Festool has stated there isn't a problem, I can't refute that with any concrete evidence.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2017, 12:08 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline DB10

  • Posts: 911
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2017, 02:16 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Interesting but my 240v Kapex gets up to speed almost instantly, certainly up to speed by the time the blade touches the material. Does the USA version take longer to get up to full speed.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2017, 08:23 AM »
I haven't been overly active here at all on this forum for the last two years, but recently I was starting to lurk around and ended up started digging around old threads in regards to this Kapex motor burn out issue. 

In doing that, I do recall reading something along the way that piqued my interest in that it may be attributable to not allowing the motor to come up to speed before plunging into the cut.  I know I could be deemed guilty of this at times myself, but having read that, I'm on guard now to avoid doing so in the future.

 But who knows if that is a common culprit in these motor burn-outs for sure.  It is certainly an act that people could be innocently doing just not knowing how detrimental this is to the saw.  Myself, I've been a happy Kapex owner now for three years.
Interesting but my 240v Kapex gets up to speed almost instantly, certainly up to speed by the time the blade touches the material. Does the USA version take longer to get up to full speed.

It may.  I'm no expert in motors, but I myself converted everything I had to that could work on either 120V or 240V to 240V simply because it is easier on start up for the motors per what other people have asserted on the subject.  I did that for no other reason actually.  Curious, are all these motor burnouts 120V wired motors?   
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2017, 11:01 PM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2017, 11:06 PM »
Also, tomorrow will be day 14 since Festool received my saw for repairs. I finally got through to Brett 2 days ago and after a lot of searching, he found my paperwork and said the saw was fixed. No telling how many days it was sitting there waiting for them to call me for CC info  [mad]. Hopefully I'll get it tomorrow.

Offline Kevin D.

  • Posts: 873
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2017, 06:11 AM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

I'm a 'fanboy' because I state the obvious question anybody would have?  Maybe you should stop using your Kapex where the sun doesn't shine! 
Kapex, CT-SYS, SYS-Cart, Pro 5 Sander, CT36AC, TS75, MFT 1080, MF-SYS/2, PS300 EQ-Plus, Parallel Guides Set, LR32 SYS, RO 150FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EQ Plus, DOMINO 500 Q-Plus,  Domino XL, MFK 700 EQ-Set, FS-SYS/2, CT22 w/hose storage, D36HW-RS-Plus, FS 1900/2, FS 3000/2, FS 1080/2-LR32, FS 1400/2-LR32, Gecko, Festool Floor Mat, Festool Stein, Multi-Tool, tape measure, large and small Festool floor mats (foam rubber).

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2017, 07:09 AM »
Four times....same guy....I'm leaning towards the guy.  Just sayin!

Sure, typical fanboy response. I know how to care for a tool. It's not the way I use it. I sincerely hope yours acts like mine so you can get a clue.

I'm a 'fanboy' because I state the obvious question anybody would have?  Maybe you should stop using your Kapex where the sun doesn't shine!

One would have a correlation of the same tool burning up 4x; for both bad use, as well as an individually bad tool.
It could point to either mechanism as the cause.

Claiming head->tailpipe asthe cause, may not be helpful to up understanding the true... Even though it is a possibility.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 8368
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2017, 09:49 AM »
Can the attack posts please.


Seth

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rand17

  • Posts: 19
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #61 on: February 03, 2017, 10:38 AM »
Hmmmm... Just order a Kapex.... getting concerned now... then now I see a recall for the TS55REQ which I also ordered....

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 8368
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2017, 10:47 AM »
Hmmmm... Just order a Kapex.... getting concerned now... then now I see a recall for the TS55REQ which I also ordered....

Welcome to the forum!  [smile]


I wouldn't be too concerned. You've  got a three year warranty and a 30 day return period. Plenty of time to decide what to do if a problem arises or if you decide not to take a chance.

  On the TS55 recall. That specific problem is corrected. Hence the reason for the recall. They would not be selling saws that have an issue that it was actually recalled for.

Seth

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 588
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2017, 10:50 AM »
Hmmmm... Just order a Kapex.... getting concerned now... then now I see a recall for the TS55REQ which I also ordered....

Hi rand17,

If you ordered that TS55 REQ new from a Festool Dealer there is absolutely no reason to be concerned. The recall is from 2013 - saws that are being sold right now (and have been sold, ever after the issue came up) through authorized Festool Dealers are not affected.

Don't be overly concerned with the Kapex either. Try it, use it in good spirits and see for yourself. IF a problem should come up, Festool will take care of it. Don't let negative reports (though valid!) ruin the experience for you without having used one.

Kind regards,
Oliver

EDIT: Sorry, Seth's and my posting crossed.
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 579
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2017, 02:08 PM »

[/quote]
Don't be overly concerned with the Kapex either. Try it, use it in good spirits and see for yourself. IF a problem should come up, Festool will take care of it.
[/quote]

For 3 years just remember that. After the 3 year warranty there have been reports of extremely high repair bills for most of their tools, kapex included. With that in mind just inform yourself while your within your 30 day grace period.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2017, 08:43 PM »
My Bosch glide with the kapex plastic dust shrowd has very good dust collection. I'd say if you compared it to the kapex you'd be splitting hairs. It's not light, but its sturdy with a powerful motor and it and it hasn't had a hiccup.  Love the bevel lock and adjusting the stops isn't hard once you've read the manual.  For a laser there are many cheap washers for the blade bolt with built in lasers and they work very well. Please make a better kapex festool. We all want it.
Have you by chance posted any pics on how you attached the Kapex dust shroud? Also what part numbers did you order? I just got a Bosch Glide.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2017, 09:38 PM »
Tool Nut has it. Do a search.  Slice a couple slices in the sides with a knife and it will slide onto the mounts on your glide.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2017, 11:43 PM »
I got my saw back Friday and it's good to have back in the shop. To balance out my negative posts on the Kapex I thought I should list the things I DO love about it.
1. The bevel: The scale, micro adjust knob and release lever are all brilliant and a huge time saver on the jobsite.
2. Twin lasers: they are dead on accurate and save time when making cuts, especially on miter cuts.
3.Lightweight
4.Fence is well machined and smooth
5.Stays True: My saw has never been out of alignment in 5 years and that's impressive
6. Miter scale and lock are smooth and hold where it's set at.

So bottom line: The motor failures are inexcusable, BUT, I would likely buy another Kapex if I needed another saw

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2017, 01:10 AM »
Tool Nut has it. Do a search.  Slice a couple slices in the sides with a knife and it will slide onto the mounts on your glide.
This one?

http://www.toolnut.com/festool-200215-kapex-replacement-dust-extraction-boot.html
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 366
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2017, 08:44 AM »
Yes that's it.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4451
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2017, 09:25 AM »
So bottom line: The motor failures are inexcusable, BUT, I would likely buy another Kapex if I needed another saw

That's good to hear...  [thumbs up]  let's hope that Festool comes up with a solution and that it's sooner than later.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1028
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2017, 12:42 PM »
Yes that's it.
Nice. Thanks for the confirmation. Ill add to the next FestoolProducts/ToolNut order!
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline chris s

  • Posts: 104
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2017, 03:04 PM »
When you get the repaired saw back , does festool send any kind of service report describing the failure? It seems all anyone ever says is the motor burned up. But what caused it to burn up? I had an old sidewinder 71/4 inch saw years ago that had a similar problem. Put 5 or 6 armatures in it. Turned out there was a batch of bad commutator bars.  Just curious.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 73
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2017, 12:36 AM »
When you get the repaired saw back , does festool send any kind of service report describing the failure? It seems all anyone ever says is the motor burned up. But what caused it to burn up? I had an old sidewinder 71/4 inch saw years ago that had a similar problem. Put 5 or 6 armatures in it. Turned out there was a batch of bad commutator bars.  Just curious.

Yes they do list what they replaced/repaired