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Author Topic: Kapex up in smoke 4th time  (Read 18422 times)

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Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 66
Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« on: January 07, 2017, 09:22 PM »
Well, it's happened again!! 1 year and a few days after getting my Kapex back from repairing motor failure #3 it burned up again.
I have kid-gloved this thing from the moment I bought it. Been careful to use sharp blades, don't make heavy cuts etc, etc. I have even started using a separate circuit to run the dust extractor to ensure it (kapex) always gets sufficient power. Still burned up. It has been used only moderately in the last 12 months, some in my shop, some on the jobsite. It is NOT a power supply issue, it is NOT an issue of misusing the saw. Just simply has a flaw in the motor that Festool refuses or is unable to correct. I am so sick of dealing with this. I may have to make use of the 30 day return policy for a few saws/months.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:33 PM by ghostofhoward »

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Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 136
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 09:58 PM »
I feel your pain our shop Kapex will be 2 years old in February and already on it's third motor and I think it's starting to go again. It' a shame that Festool wants to act like there is not a problem I guess they simply just don't care. There's one thing you can bet your  on the piece of junk is  going up in price come April!!!   

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2493
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 10:03 PM »
I feel . . . . . . . . . There's one thing you can bet your  on the piece of junk is  going up in price come April!!!

Well it did down here on Jan 1.

Although now, later in the year, I am more enclined to get the new 60. [See how they shape up with others experiences first!  [big grin]] And if warranted later replace my Makita SCS with a Metabo. I am currently working on decking and finding my HK55 has replaced any need for a SCS for this task.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 10:10 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 2944
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 01:38 AM »
The cool thing about different languages, is that if you're clever...you can use that to your advantage. 

Kapex issues...say what?

Ich habe keine idee.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 01:41 AM by Cheese »

Offline danbox

  • Posts: 69
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 04:43 AM »
I've always though of buying a Kapex for the shop but I keep reading about these issues...

I own three DeWalt DWS780's, one lives in the shop and the other two are out on site. The site saws definitely get abused being thrown in the vans, materials, ladders ect; put in and on top of them. All are about three years old i think and we've never had any issues with any of them.

The blade guard came loose once on one saw once and that is honestly the only issue with years of heavy use on all three saws. There checked once weekly for accuracy and still cut as good as they did when bought. Only down sides, heavy, awqward to carry and you need allot of space around the saw to use it.

I think they are currently £600 in the UK. Think I will stick with these until a new model Kapex comes out! Anyone know if this is in the works or not?

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 136
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 12:31 PM »
I agree about the DeWalt 780's other than the Kapex we have three that live in the shop or on site and never had an issue with any of them. With a proper setup and good blade they cut just as good as the Kapex. They may lack a few features and be a little heavier than the Kapex but  they cost a fraction about $600 here in the states and there dependable. I use my tools professionally to make a living the last thing I need to worry about is if a saw will  make it through a job or not and that I have to waste my time packing it up to send of for repair AGAIN!!!! The Kapex was one of the worst Festool purchase I have ever made and even if they come out with a newer version I won't even consider it especially they way I feel they have handles this whole issue.

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 532
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2017, 01:33 PM »
Yea I have avoided the Kapex not just because of the price, but also due to the 110V version problems I have heard so many complain about. I have had the DWS780 for a couple years and now recently picked up the Bosch GCM12SD 12" Glide due to the less rear clearance space needed and so far have been liking it more than the DeWalt. But I cant see myself going with a Kapex unless they come out with a new version and its been out for a year or two, or they drastically reduce the price of it for some weird reason.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 790
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2017, 02:35 PM »
Yea I have avoided the Kapex not just because of the price, but also due to the 110V version problems I have heard so many complain about. I have had the DWS780 for a couple years and now recently picked up the Bosch GCM12SD 12" Glide due to the less rear clearance space needed and so far have been liking it more than the DeWalt. But I cant see myself going with a Kapex unless they come out with a new version and its been out for a year or two, or they drastically reduce the price of it for some weird reason.

It's not just 110v. Yes there are more 110v tools that have been reported for going bad, but 240v also have their issues. I don't believe it is a case of 110v vs 240v, but a case that there is a common fault across both voltages, but the 110v has a lesser tolerance to whatever the fault is, not that the fault only resides with 110v.

Complete new saw with a new motor is required to put the whole debacle behind Festool.

Offline ghostofhoward

  • Posts: 66
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2017, 02:54 PM »
My backup saw is a DWS780 as well. It's going on 13 years old and gets used for everything too dirty or rough for the Kapex, framing, decks, even fiber cement for a house or two. The ONLY thing I have ever done with it is change blades. The detents have gotten sloppy in the last couple of years but I have been very happy with it. I will almost certainly be buying another soon to UPGRADE from the kapex. Sad.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 03:52 PM by ghostofhoward »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1864
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2017, 03:12 PM »
I was about to buy a Kapex a few years back, so glad I didn't. My sympathies, what an aggravating mess.
+1

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 532
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2017, 04:37 PM »
Whats really terrible though is that with so many people having issues I havent heard of them extending the 3 year warranty to cover those that ended up having issues after the warranty period was up. These issues are obviously due to a design flaw and IMO it should be fixed and recall done instead of just abandoning people when their motor fails after 3 years.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 136
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2017, 05:02 PM »
I agree it would seem to be in Festool's best interest to acknowledge there's a design flaw or do a recall for those of use that are stuck with these obviously faulty saws. I don't know about the rest of you but this whole situation has really tarnished my views of Festool.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 851
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2017, 06:34 PM »
It would appear that Festool doesn't care about their perceived reputation with regards to Kapex.

They seemingly feel:

1. Nothing is wrong
2. You are obviously using it incorrectly if English is your native language.
3. Their sales of Kapex are sufficient , and the line of lambs long , so as to make it unprofitable to address a problem real or perceived.      If there is problem.  ::) ::)

Which there's not - see number 1.

It's been at least six months, maybe longer since the brass came on here and said they're looking into it.  Not one peep from anyone official regarding this , yet people keep reporting this tool's maladies in disproportionate number to anything else on here.

I cannot believe that that a company that has positioned themselves at the top of the heap can't find the engineering prowess to work out what's causing this saw's motor to fail in such a short timespan.  I could believe they have and wouldn't want to disclose for fear of breaking the bank. 




Offline duburban

  • Posts: 876
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2017, 06:41 PM »
Have you checked your power source all the way back to the power plant? I'm sure its just dirty power.
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 136
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2017, 07:13 PM »
Yeah better call the electric company and tell them they owe me a new Kapex for all that dirty power they are supplying me with. Oh but wait a minute I keep forgetting the rest of the shop equipment is running just fine but then again it's built to higher standards 

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1864
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2017, 07:14 PM »
Have you checked your power source all the way back to the power plant? I'm sure its just dirty power.

Not a problem around here, we mostly use hydroelectric instead of coal [poke]
+1

Offline amt

  • Posts: 342
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2017, 07:18 PM »
I wonder if anyone would sell their broken Kapex for cheap.  For the right price, I'd be temped to swap in a 3-phase spindle motor + VFD.  Anyone know what the Kapex motor RPM range is (not the blade RPM, but the motor before any gear reduction)?  Would probably need some custom parts CNC'd, but would be a cool project.  Think of advantages: very fast start-up and motor brake, significantly more power, eliminate the reliability problem, dial in exact RPM you want, etc.

Offline rgarthe

  • Posts: 3
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2017, 10:08 PM »
It would appear that Festool doesn't care about their perceived reputation with regards to Kapex.

They seemingly feel:

1. Nothing is wrong
2. You are obviously using it incorrectly if English is your native language.
3. Their sales of Kapex are sufficient , and the line of lambs long , so as to make it unprofitable to address a problem real or perceived.      If there is problem.  ::) ::)

Which there's not - see number 1.

It's been at least six months, maybe longer since the brass came on here and said they're looking into it.  Not one peep from anyone official regarding this , yet people keep reporting this tool's maladies in disproportionate number to anything else on here.

I cannot believe that that a company that has positioned themselves at the top of the heap can't find the engineering prowess to work out what's causing this saw's motor to fail in such a short timespan.  I could believe they have and wouldn't want to disclose for fear of breaking the bank.


German arrogance is a problem. I work with a person from Germany and he thinks he is better than many of his coworkers. I get the same thing from the VW dealer where I purchased my new Rutan from; which by the way has several problems they cannot fix, or do know know how to fix. Germany engineering is not what it use to be. I think I made a bad choice buying the Kaypex.
Rick

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 7633
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2017, 11:49 PM »
How about we don't denigrate an entire nationality.

Seth

Offline G-Man

  • Posts: 5
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2017, 03:07 AM »
Hmm shame about all the problems, i was seriously looking at the Kapex 120 but I have been reading all week about the 110v issues and now all these motors burning out [sad] I think I'll save myself £1000 and look at others.

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 45
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2017, 12:27 PM »
have to agree with a few posters here.  I was ready to buy a Kapex but now I am looking at alternatives.  I know there are thousands of them out there working for years, but there also seem to be quite a few that are not working.  If Festool does not talk to us, we will make up our own numbers and scare ourselves.  I don't want to risk being one those that don't work so I am looking at alternatives.

 Instead of ignoring the problem, Festool needs to take a business 101 class, one of the things they will learn is "talk to your customers, if you ignore them, your competition will talk to them"   Only Festool knows the seriousness of this problem and only they know if it is even a real problem or a internet problem.  One of the problems with the internet is that when things are working fine, most people don't go on the net and say so, when they don't work the net is the first place they complain, so sometimes things appear worse than they really are, but in this case the silence from Festool makes it appear true.

 I will be buying the competition since they are talking to me...let me tell you a story...At the last dealer day at my local tool store (a dealer day is a day where company representatives show up and talk and demo their tools, usually goes along with a BBQ so I go there for lunch :) ) I was looking at the Makita saw and mentioned I was thinking Kapex, the Makita representative told me to google Kapex motor failures and compare that to a google of Makita motor failures, hint that was the competition talking to me.  Festool didnt have a rep at this dealer day so the store had their Festool salesdroid there and his answer to that was that Festool would take care of it while under warranty but could not answer my question about what happens after the warranty, except to say that Festool is one of the best.

 Right now, I am still getting by with my 12" slider but I really need better accuracy (repeatability)
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline charley1968

  • Posts: 475
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2017, 01:23 PM »
 Thanks, @Seth
Just for today..

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 822
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 02:58 PM »
In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results. :)

It's hard to understand the magnitude of such issues. The manufacturer has an opportunity to do something here, unfortunately the fear (and consequence) of saying the wrong thing paralyzes most. It really would be nice to hear something though.
-Raj

Offline mikeyr

  • Posts: 45
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 03:17 PM »
In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results. :)
Yes that search does return plenty.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline Green Koolaide

  • Posts: 104
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2017, 01:08 AM »
Where there is smoke there is a Kapex.

Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emisions scandal?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:39 PM by Green Koolaide »
"Five out of every four people have problems with fractions"

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 2944
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 01:25 AM »
Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emmsion scandal?

Probably not...one is the disregard for federal law whereas the other is a disregard for common courtesy and admission of culpability.

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1559
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2017, 04:58 AM »
I try to keep out of these discussions, but this one I'm intrigued with.

I'm not a statistician, so I can only go by "gut feel", but having four motor replacements on one Kapex would either mean @Rollin22Petes is incredibly unlucky, or there's an external influence of some sort that affects these motors in a way Festool hasn't designed for. It seems to be in Festool's best interest to identify this external influence as anecdotally it doesn't affect other equipment in the same location used in the same way with the same frequency.

Perhaps with the previous service records for this Kapex, the latest motor failure as evidence that can be investigated thoroughly, and the support of @Rollin22Petes in any local investigation, Festool could take the opportunity to engage an appropriate contractor to analyse things like the local power supply provision etc. to see if an issue or pattern can be identified.

Assuming of course an issue hasn't already been identified that isn't being publicly disclosed.

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?

If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.

I'd like to find some sort of resolution to this particular ongoing issue because, even though I'm not personally affected by it(disclosure: my KAPEX is 230V and works brilliantly),  I am disappointed that Festool are not more forthcoming with information, especially given previous threads where we've been led to believe we would receive some feedback when experiences were asked for.

It doesn't put me off buying a KAPEX, but it does detract from my expectation of Festool with regard to how important their customer voice is. And that dissatisfaction spreads to more than just a single product, and it grows whilst the vacuum of official investigation and response continues.

I hold you up to high standards Festool; don't disappoint.



[NOTE: Tools from other manufacturers are of course available. As this is the Festool Owners Group, I tend to limit my advice to the tools that Festool sell, and assume that you've come to this site to get advice on Festool tools and because the level of skill and experience of the community here outstrips most you'll find elsewhere. If you *are* interested in tools from other manufacturers, please mention it in your post and also take the time to visit their user forums too.]

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Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
    FOG Administrator
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  • Posts: 812
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2017, 08:34 AM »

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 790
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2017, 12:52 PM »

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing @TylerC? And reporting publicly?


At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

What you say makes perfect sense and is largely a rational response. However to say it "takes some time" is underplaying just how slowly Festool are moving with this - glacial erosion springs to mind.

They're basic  electrical  motors we're talking about diagnosing here, not the formula for perpetual motion!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 01:06 PM by bobfog »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3556
Re: Kapex up in smoke 4th time
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2017, 06:20 PM »
You had a very articulate and well reasoned post.

However... With respect to this part:

...
If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.
...

Implicitly suggesting that FOG crowd source it in some "pay it forward" scheme just goes against my grain.
It is Festool's total responsibility and total profit, so IMO they should solely fund Festool's analysis.

The space shuttle, being funded by NASA (Via taxes)... I am fine with funding (as it generally helps all of mankind), but Festool's motor failures analysis only helps Festool.
Therefore I feel no responsibility to in any way guide Festool or fund their analysis.

If a University were working on some new motor for the general populous or mankind, then I would be open to hearing their arguments and pleas for funding.

At this point I would just buy a Metabo or a Bosch, and for a Hybrid a Tesla, Honda, or Prius... Assuming that Chev/Ford are not making a viable <electric> motors.