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Author Topic: Kapex up in smoke  (Read 15453 times)

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Offline Brandon

  • Posts: 214
Kapex up in smoke
« on: April 05, 2013, 05:48 PM »
So my 1.5 year old Kapex died yesterday. Cutting a piece of mdf and suddenly smoke starting coming out of it and that was that. Called Festool service and they are going to ship me a box to ship it to them, kinda disappointed that I have to pay to ship it to them but I understand their warranty. Mostly just upset that my Kapex only lasted a year and a half, with fairly light use and now I have to pay to ship it so they can repair it. I have bosch that is 4 years old and 2 hitachi's that are around 8 years old and none of them have ever had an issue.

Festool service said, sight unseen, that it was likely a burned out armature.

With this recent issue I basically realized again how underwhelmed I am with the Kapex overall. Nice saw but not twice as nice as any of my other saws for the money.

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Offline Brandon

  • Posts: 214
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 05:53 PM »
I forgot to mention that a couple months ago the locking lever for the miter broke. Again, this saw has minimal use and is well taken care of. Festool sent me a free replacement part but just another issue with the saw I thought i mention that helped to lead to my disappointment in the saw.

Not saying it's not great saw but less than I have come to expect from Festool. I own very many of their other tools and am thrilled with most of them

Offline dicktill

  • Posts: 276
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 06:56 PM »
"sorry for your loss ..."

Not to hijack this thread, but since you have other brands of miter saws, can you comment on the anmount of dust that a Kapex spews out compared to them?

Thanks, Dick

Offline Brandon

  • Posts: 214
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 07:38 PM »
"sorry for your loss ..."

Not to hijack this thread, but since you have other brands of miter saws, can you comment on the anmount of dust that a Kapex spews out compared to them?

Thanks, Dick

I have used both my hitachi and Bosch with a CT22 vac and neither one comes close in dust collection to the Kapex. That is truly one of the major highlights of the Kapex. With some minor dust chute modifications my Bosch dust collection becomes respectable but still noticeably shy of the kapex. My kapex really only gets used when minimal dust is needed, working inside clients finished houses for instance. While I wouldn't agree with some claims of 90% dust collection on the kapex I would say in my experience that its a solid 75% and most airborne dust is eliminated.

Offline Woodsgood

  • Posts: 50
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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 11:24 AM »
I too am disappointed with the Kapex. It is not powerful, it is fragile, it leaks oil and it is expensive. But as a system component it works well, it is light and it fits well in tight spaces. I own many Festools and I will buy more. They all can't be perfect.

The purpose of my post is not to be inflammatory or to shine a negative light on customer service which is excellent. Maybe the next generation Kapex , will have these issues corrected.

Offline nanook

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 03:43 PM »
great to read these posts - I think sometimes here people are afraid of dissing festool.   Good to hear some real world, and balanced perspectives

Offline john5mt

  • Posts: 81
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 11:14 PM »
Wait what? Leaks oil? There's oil in these things?

I didn't realize that. Interested to see how it does in the winter time out side now.

I have a hitachi 10fsh that I have always been super happy with but my festool addiction couldn't resist a kapex. Like you said it's a nice saw just not 3x nice. The other reason to get a kapex is the manufacturing quality. A lot of the saws on the market are innovative and nice but the cheap parts and loose tolerances make them angering to use. My old hitachi was made in Japan and it is as accurate as a kapex and is more accurate than anyother saw I have used.

Hope your kapex issues are fixed. If the kapex doesn't turn out to be a good saw then finish carpenters are screwed when their old reliable saws finally die.
Smoking the green crack

Offline mastercabman

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2013, 11:10 AM »
Wait what? Leaks oil? There's oil in these things?

I wonder that too.
I tough it was grease.How can it leaks oil?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2013, 09:50 PM »
There have been a few reports of drops of grease (or oil separated from the grease) coming from the Kapex under certain environmental conditions. As I recall, and I have to confirm this with the service department, Germany was adding more grease than required for a period of time and this has been resolved. The excess was resulting in "leakage" for lack of a better word. We're not talking about puddles of grease or oil.

This will not affect the performance or life of the tool. If you have this happen and are concerned about it, feel free to contact me directly or our service department.

Offline Rickfisher

  • Posts: 51
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2013, 01:51 PM »
Get Festool to send you a tube of the green smoke..   Inject .. and your back in action...

Seems like the Kapex motor has a few reported hiccups.  People seem to rave about the engineering .. accuracy and dust collection..   All power tool companies have issues, its the nature of the business.  I have a Bosch Colt which is pretty much useless and a drawer full of Makita LION batteries that failed way too early ..   Its life..   Manage your expectations and your disappointments will be fewer..




Offline Weiche

  • Posts: 7
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 06:53 PM »
i have two kapex miter saws, the first one stopped working after about 1.5 years. i took to a local tool repair shop to see if they could fix it, as my luck would have it they were broken into and my saw was stolen. so i bought a new kapex and after only 6 months of use the armature burned up, so i sent it back and it was repaired and returned to me within a week.  i was using my kapex today and the armature burned up again. so i guess i will be boxing it up and sending it in to be repaired again.......... i own several more tools made by festool and have not had any trouble from any of them. the kapex is by far the best miter saw i have ever owned. i just wish festool could correct the kapex problems. maybe a bigger motor. really seems to be under powered.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 07:07 PM »
Anyone experiencing 240V KAPEX issues? I'm not - just curious whether these issues are 110V specific ...

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 07:27 PM »
Anyone experiencing 240V KAPEX issues? I'm not - just curious whether these issues are 110V specific ...

That's a good question Kev.  So far I remember one member from Europe with a burned up armature/motor and all other reports from N. America.  Festool only knows how widespread this issue is and if it really is widespread they'd probably never (publicly) admit it.  Armatures burning up multiple times on any tool, of any brand, is something I've not heard of before.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened.  All I know is it seems to be happening enough to have gotten my attention....   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 08:23 PM »
Anyone experiencing 240V KAPEX issues? I'm not - just curious whether these issues are 110V specific ...

That's a good question Kev.  So far I remember one member from Europe with a burned up armature/motor and all other reports from N. America.  Festool only knows how widespread this issue is and if it really is widespread they'd probably never (publicly) admit it.  Armatures burning up multiple times on any tool, of any brand, is something I've not heard of before.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened.  All I know is it seems to be happening enough to have gotten my attention....   

Brice, I'm not the guy who would make the call on whether to issue a statement on a widespread problem if one existed, but I am a guy who can say that there isn't one. I'm not discounting these reports and it's bad that it has happened even a few times.

I just recently spent some time with the service department manager to talk about what types of things they were seeing so I can be aware of things that might come up on the forum. Armature issues was never mentioned.

Remember that this forum is predominately represented by visitors from North America. So the proportion of reported problems will be based on that.

Shane

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 09:51 PM »
Armature issues was never mentioned.


When the VCR stops working, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's a "short circuit".

When a motor fails, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's an "Armature Failure".

While these are both possible failure modes, in most cases it is simply people using what they think are generic terms that actually aren't generic, and do have specific meanings. A "short circuit" does have a specific meaning, and is rarely the cause for a VCR to fail. The same is true for an armature failure. That is a specific component in a motor, but is rarely the actual cause of a motor failure.

Just because the term "Armature" was used does not mean there is or is not any sort of trend. That is the equivalent of saying every electrical problem is a short circuit.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 10:37 PM »
Armature issues was never mentioned.


When the VCR stops working, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's a "short circuit".

When a motor fails, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's an "Armature Failure".

While these are both possible failure modes, in most cases it is simply people using what they think are generic terms that actually aren't generic, and do have specific meanings. A "short circuit" does have a specific meaning, and is rarely the cause for a VCR to fail. The same is true for an armature failure. That is a specific component in a motor, but is rarely the actual cause of a motor failure.

Just because the term "Armature" was used does not mean there is or is not any sort of trend. That is the equivalent of saying every electrical problem is a short circuit.

That's true Rick.  My assumption is that these people had their saw's repaired and know it was the armature that failed.  As I said, that's my assumption, I could be wrong.

Edited to add:  Regardless what people might be mistakenly calling their saw's failure the fact remains there are a certain number of people with a failure.     
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:45 PM by Brice Burrell »
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 10:42 PM »
Anyone experiencing 240V KAPEX issues? I'm not - just curious whether these issues are 110V specific ...

That's a good question Kev.  So far I remember one member from Europe with a burned up armature/motor and all other reports from N. America.  Festool only knows how widespread this issue is and if it really is widespread they'd probably never (publicly) admit it.  Armatures burning up multiple times on any tool, of any brand, is something I've not heard of before.  I'm not saying it hasn't happened.  All I know is it seems to be happening enough to have gotten my attention....   

Brice, I'm not the guy who would make the call on whether to issue a statement on a widespread problem if one existed, but I am a guy who can say that there isn't one. I'm not discounting these reports and it's bad that it has happened even a few times.

I just recently spent some time with the service department manager to talk about what types of things they were seeing so I can be aware of things that might come up on the forum. Armature issues was never mentioned.

Remember that this forum is predominately represented by visitors from North America. So the proportion of reported problems will be based on that.

Shane

Shane, I'd agree this is not a widespread problem in the sense that a very high percentage of saws are failing.  All I can say is when people talk about miter saws as a whole we don't much talk about failed armatures.  With the Kapex the issue has gotten my attention. 
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 10:54 PM »
As I am finally jumping off the fence and finally going to purchase the Kapex this week these comments are making me doubt spending $1375.00 on one tool. I spent a lot of time last week at the local Woodcraft store in Kansas City running through all of the features of the Kapex and was finally convinced of the extra cost. I've been outbid many times on Ebay on used Kapex's probably with no warranty ( this is probably a good thing).
 I hope these are isolated situations.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7647
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 10:57 PM »
As I am finally jumping off the fence and finally going to purchase the Kapex this week these comments are making me doubt spending $1375.00 on one tool. I spent a lot of time last week at the local Woodcraft store in Kansas City running through all of the features of the Kapex and was finally convinced of the extra cost. I've been outbid many times on Ebay on used Kapex's probably with no warranty ( this is probably a good thing).
 I hope these are isolated situations.

I think I could say that even if you were unfortunate to have an issue, Festool would see it good.


Offline nanook

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 11:10 PM »


I just recently spent some time with the service department manager to talk about what types of things they were seeing so I can be aware of things that might come up on the forum. Armature issues was never mentioned.

Shane


Shane, what issues did the Service Dept Manager mention them seeing?   
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 11:14 PM by nanook »

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 11:33 PM »
Shane, what issues did the Service Dept Manager mention them seeing?   

I figured that might be asked. I actually typed it in my original post and removed it because I thought I might not be believed. But there were no issues that were on the radar.

I did specifically ask about the 4-5 reported cases of the TS 55 REQ not retracting after plunge. I had him take apart a saw and show me what he thought was the problem. We were expecting one of these back from a customer (also a FOG member) who reported this problem and I was going to hear about the actual findings but the Service Department Manager is out of the office this week. So, I expect to hear something on Monday about whether his hunch was confirmed. I'll reiterate that there are very, very few reported cases. I also asked about the report of grease dripping from the Kapex which is another rare case to make sure my understanding of the problem was correct and I was providing accurate information when I responded here on the forum.

The reality is that this forum is not censored. If there were widespread problems, they would be posted about here for all to read. If there's a problem, you guys are likely to read all of the juicy details for yourself and learn about it the same time I do.

But, I think Kev summed it up well with his reply...

I think I could say that even if you were unfortunate to have an issue, Festool would see it good.

We take care of our customers. I do it every day and go above and beyond in many cases what we guarantee. I've said this before here on the forum, but humor me in repeating myself: While we strive for perfection, there are problems with any product, regardless of price. The defining difference is how a company stands behind their product. I can say with confidence that we are among the very best in that respect.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 11:36 PM by Shane Holland »

Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 12:48 AM »
As I am finally jumping off the fence and finally going to purchase the Kapex this week these comments are making me doubt spending $1375.00 on one tool. I spent a lot of time last week at the local Woodcraft store in Kansas City running through all of the features of the Kapex and was finally convinced of the extra cost. I've been outbid many times on Ebay on used Kapex's probably with no warranty ( this is probably a good thing).
 I hope these are isolated situations.

I think I could say that even if you were unfortunate to have an issue, Festool would see it good.




 Kev, that is one thing I do not doubt.

Offline Allikidej

  • Posts: 2
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2017, 05:52 PM »
dfzsdrgdr

Offline Allikidej

  • Posts: 2
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2017, 05:57 PM »
Mine Died today, again. This is the 3rd time. Same problem. Cutting parts. motor starts making a weird sound and starts to smoke. Sending it out to get fixed...... Still the best saw out there and i've had them all. BTW it's 6 years old and it gets used on a daily basis.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3992
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2017, 06:24 PM »
Armature issues was never mentioned.


When the VCR stops working, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's a "short circuit".

When a motor fails, the average person will throw up their arms and say it's an "Armature Failure".

While these are both possible failure modes, in most cases it is simply people using what they think are generic terms that actually aren't generic, and do have specific meanings. A "short circuit" does have a specific meaning, and is rarely the cause for a VCR to fail. The same is true for an armature failure. That is a specific component in a motor, but is rarely the actual cause of a motor failure.

Just because the term "Armature" was used does not mean there is or is not any sort of trend. That is the equivalent of saying every electrical problem is a short circuit.

I admire admire JC Maxwell and the others very highly. But one does not need a physics or engineering background to know that when the smoke puffs out of it them, "It done burnt up".

People with burnt out saws may find this as a bit of "alternative fact" to suggest that the problem with the saw is not them burning up, but rather people are using poor nomenclature.

Whatever the mechanism is, it has not been fixed.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 492
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2017, 07:57 PM »
Mine Died today, again. This is the 3rd time. Same problem. Cutting parts. motor starts making a weird sound and starts to smoke. Sending it out to get fixed...... Still the best saw out there and i've had them all. BTW it's 6 years old and it gets used on a daily basis.

It's time to put it out to pasture. Buy the Bosch or the Dewalt FLEXVOLT saw and move on. There is absolutely no excuse for it failing this many times and as you know you are not the first nor will you be the last. Something has gone south in the design of the Kapex or the parts used within. At it's current price point it should be so over-engineered that it would never fail.

Offline antss

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2017, 11:36 AM »
FT could also lower the price.  [big grin]

People who buy a Harbor Freight saw don't really hem and haw when their $150 mitersaw goes tits up after a year or so.  Their expectation isn't that high for $150. If the same saw last three years they're ecstatic.

At $1600 , the bar is set pretty high and people expect their saw to last more than three years regardless of the power grid or whether they're cutting thin pieces of trim molding or 4x4 posts.  In fact that bar is so high, I don't think there are any bars higher for portable mitersaws.  And that's the headache for FT.

Like someone already a said , it's about managing expectations. And at $1600/saw my expectations are pretty darn high.

Offline ben_r_

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Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2017, 11:40 AM »
FT could also lower the price.  [big grin]

People who buy a Harbor Freight saw don't really hem and haw when their $150 mitersaw goes tits up after a year or so.  Their expectation isn't that high for $150. If the same saw last three years they're ecstatic.

At $1600 , the bar is set pretty high and people expect their saw to last more than three years regardless of the power grid or whether they're cutting thin pieces of trim molding or 4x4 posts.  In fact that bar is so high, I don't think there are any bars higher for portable mitersaws.  And that's the headache for FT.

Like someone already a said , it's about managing expectations. And at $1600/saw my expectations are pretty darn high.
I agree. The Kapex is $1475 though, not $1600. LINK
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 358
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2017, 02:07 PM »
Well for me after I pay .07 in tax that totals up to $1578.5.  Of course this can be avoided with online purchases but people are still supposed to still pay that tax if I'm not mistaken.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 02:11 PM by Jaybolishes »

Offline RobWoodCutter

  • Posts: 79
Re: Kapex up in smoke
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2017, 01:37 PM »
I am heavily invested in FT.

Dust Extraction: CT Midi, CT22, CT26; Saws: TS-55, TS-75 + 5 tracks; Drills: CXS, T 18+3; Routers: OF1010, OF1400, OF2200, MFK700; FS1400/2-LR32; Sanders: RO150, ETS 150/3, LS130, DTS 400, DTX90; Jigsaws: PS 420, PS 300 MISC: Domino DF500, OS 400 EQ, HL 850 E; Kapex KS 120; Router table with 2-extensions CMS-VL MFT/3, Plus multiple accessories sets.

I started buying them 8-9 years ago. I have only had two problems. The Kapex leaking oil and the OF1400 trigger latch failing several years ago soon after I mounted it to the CMS router table. It just won't stay latched in the on position after a few seconds. It worked great handheld up till that point until it was permanently mounted to the CMS.

I am sure I could order a replacement trigger to fix it but if it goes south again.... I just sucked it up and use a spring clamp to hold the trigger on now.

I also use a run the Kapex and the tracksaws on a separate circuits from the vacs at 120V. All the other FT's I run through the VACS. 

Rob