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Author Topic: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today  (Read 3600 times)

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Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 47
My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« on: November 27, 2018, 11:10 PM »
Super sad. Just cutting away and poof. Black stinky smoke rising out of the motor housing. I was in the middle of a huge siding job and had to keep going, so went down to the local dealer and picked up a new one. Pretty interesting to see the little improvements they've made over the last 6.5 years. The angle finder is MUCH better, different fasteners here and there, the CT hose connector is now the new one of course. I'm hoping they maybe addressed and fixed whatever has been causing the motor issues so numerously reported over the years? I'm going to tear into the 2012 Kapex and see if I can fix it. I might crack open both to see if anything's changed.

Anyway, just reporting an official failure of a 3/2012 model.

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Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 367
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 12:02 AM »
Interesting. The general wisdom was that the older units were more reliable--in fact many members  here would say that. Only the newer ones had problems.

Which is it?   Or do they all have problems.  Festool ought to do better than have this festering problem affect their reputation.
Vijay Kumar

Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 47
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 01:39 AM »
Yeah :/ Not sure but I'm really hoping that by the 2018 iteration things have been fixed.


Online Cheese

  • Posts: 5172
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 01:49 AM »
Well maybe it’s time to check the old Ekat and look for different part numbers. That could be a clue.

Although reading today that Festool sometimes just changes assembly numbers on products willy nilly, isn’t exactly reassuring.  [eek]    Actually that’s really scary.  [crying]

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5729
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 02:27 AM »
I'm hoping they maybe addressed and fixed whatever has been causing the motor issues so numerously reported over the years?

No, they haven't.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 237
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 08:29 AM »
...had to keep going, so went down to the local dealer and picked up a new one.

Taking customer loyalty to a new level!

Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 47
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 11:48 AM »
haha, well... that's the thing, I don't think it's wholly unreasonable that this died after 6 years of service - I'm super bummed - but even if I did, my entire shop is built around Festool and the fabled system. If I went with another brand, that means bucking the MFT Kapex, the extension wings and how I use them, figuring out a new method of making fast dados for framing, dealing with freakin heaps of dust, etc. I use the variable speed motor to cut aluminum flashing all the time, PVC too, so there's that feature I'd have to find in another brand, same with having to find a SCMS with such a small foot print. I've had DeWalt's equivalent set up, with the stand and such, and it's all is so crude compared to the Festool miter saw life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 682
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 12:36 PM »
Good points about sticking to the KS120 since you use it for making a living, and familiarity is important.

Similar arguments can be made for the SawStop owners. I have yet to meet one single SawStop cabinet model owner who ditches his or her SawStop for another brand of cabinet saw.

Offline Brice Burrell

  • Posts: 7356
  • Remodeling Contractor
    • The Green and Dark Blue blog
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 03:18 PM »
Good points about sticking to the KS120 since you use it for making a living, and familiarity is important.

Similar arguments can be made for the SawStop owners. I have yet to meet one single SawStop cabinet model owner who ditches his or her SawStop for another brand of cabinet saw.

If the motor burned out in a few years, and it was a known issue, I bet they would. 
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline andyman

  • Posts: 630
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 04:22 PM »
Mine done the same about 4 months ago, 2015 model luckily still under warranty.
They said something to do with the brushes, it had not had heavy use either

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 682
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 07:50 PM »
Good points about sticking to the KS120 since you use it for making a living, and familiarity is important.

Similar arguments can be made for the SawStop owners. I have yet to meet one single SawStop cabinet model owner who ditches his or her SawStop for another brand of cabinet saw.

If the motor burned out in a few years, and it was a known issue, I bet they would.

If my Kapex burned out on me, there is zero chance that I would go out and grab another Kapex to finish whatever job I was doing. I would get a Bosch instead, and sort out the repairs later. But I am an amateur and can find whatever time needed to learn a new brand and its features.

If my SawStop's motor burned out and the SawStop safety feature was the overriding reason why I got the saw, I would not have any option but to replace motor, would I?

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 432
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 09:48 PM »
many guys i work with have 10, 15, 20 year old scms made by hitachi, dewalt, and makita still going strong. Its just sad that y'all accept a few years from a $1600 saw and after it fries itself y'all buy another. Why reward festool for designing such garbage.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 5172
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2018, 12:39 AM »
many guys i work with have 10, 15, 20 year old scms made by hitachi, dewalt, and makita still going strong. Its just sad that y'all accept a few years from a $1600 saw and after it fries itself y'all buy another. Why reward festool for designing such garbage.

I agree, 4-5 years of Kapex superiority will never equal the 20 years of service produced by ANY OTHER MITER SAW. Even the compromised brands have a better track record than Kapex...Festool.

Ridiculous... ridiculous not because Festool produced a turd...rather, ridiculous because they never considered it prudent to fix their turd production problem. Just keep cranking those turds out seems to be the Festool mantra.





Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 367
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2018, 12:45 AM »

If the motor burned out in a few years, and it was a known issue, I bet they would.

Brice,  Sawstop is owned by the same company as Festool is. Are you sure this would happen now?  Of course this is probably a theoretical question, since Sawstop motors are pretty good.
Vijay Kumar

Offline Jaybolishes

  • Posts: 379
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2018, 07:38 AM »
You mean sawstop motors used to be good.  Let’s see, now that they have been bought by a company known to have underpowered motors that blow up prematurely. Is this a dead horse?  Sad isn’t it?

Offline Roseland

  • Posts: 581
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2018, 08:17 AM »
The TS55 has thermal overload protection.  Is this also in the Kapex (but doesn't work)?

Andrew
TS55, MFT/3, OF1400, OF1010, CT26, RS100, ETS125, CXS, MFS400, DF-500, Zobos.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 237
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2018, 08:36 AM »
You mean sawstop motors used to be good...

Fortunately cabinet saws are equipped with large, relatively standardized and rugged electric motors whose design details and engineering were worked out long ago, so this is arguably a moot point.  It is the art of packaging a compact purpose engineered electric motor integrated into the tool at which Festool seems to have badly stumbled and not yet even attempted to recover.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 682
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2018, 11:12 AM »
The TS55 has thermal overload protection.  Is this also in the Kapex (but doesn't work)?

Andrew

Good question.

Does the Kapex have any thermal overload protection?
Or is the motor issue due to a problem unrelated to overloading?

Regarding SawStop motors, since the SawStop is run strictly separated from Festool (manufacturing), the tablesaw motors won't be affected by whatever that has plagued the Kapex -- at least as long as Festool and SawStop have their own manufacturing and production jurisdictions.

Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 47
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2018, 11:05 PM »
many guys i work with have 10, 15, 20 year old scms made by hitachi, dewalt, and makita still going strong. Its just sad that y'all accept a few years from a $1600 saw and after it fries itself y'all buy another. Why reward festool for designing such garbage.

I agree, 4-5 years of Kapex superiority will never equal the 20 years of service produced by ANY OTHER MITER SAW. Even the compromised brands have a better track record than Kapex...Festool.

Ridiculous... ridiculous not because Festool produced a turd...rather, ridiculous because they never considered it prudent to fix their turd production problem. Just keep cranking those turds out seems to be the Festool mantra.

It just isn't that way for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The value the Kapex brings in terms of production and efficiency makes the cost of one rather immaterial. I mean, of course I'd prefer this thing to last as long as all those other brands. Of course I do. And it's a super shame that Festool has a problem they won't fix. But at the end of the day, even one Kapex per 3 years (warranty period) costs less than 1% of the revenue it allows me to produce in that same time period. When it's not blown up and smoking like a chimney, it does miter saw things *for me and my workflow* better than any other saw to such a degree that I don't even categorize most other SCMS as an equivalent tool to the Kapex.

A quick example is a commonly-compared saw, the Bosch Glide. It's $700, the Kapex is $1500, an $800 difference. That's gross revenue made in a single day. One day. It's not even worth thinking about with that kind of margin. What *is* worth thinking about, however, is how much a workflow will be impacted by introducing a new component. These are tools, means to an end. Whatever gets from A to B cleanest and quickest is the correct tool. For me that's the Kapex, even with the stupid motor issues that I wish would get resolved. But many others won't have that same need, and that's totally OK too.

Kapex isn't for everyone, but neither is the Bosch, DeWalt, etc.


Offline James Biddle

  • Posts: 147
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2018, 01:11 AM »
many guys i work with have 10, 15, 20 year old scms made by hitachi, dewalt, and makita still going strong. Its just sad that y'all accept a few years from a $1600 saw and after it fries itself y'all buy another. Why reward festool for designing such garbage.

I agree, 4-5 years of Kapex superiority will never equal the 20 years of service produced by ANY OTHER MITER SAW. Even the compromised brands have a better track record than Kapex...Festool.

Ridiculous... ridiculous not because Festool produced a turd...rather, ridiculous because they never considered it prudent to fix their turd production problem. Just keep cranking those turds out seems to be the Festool mantra.

It just isn't that way for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The value the Kapex brings in terms of production and efficiency makes the cost of one rather immaterial. I mean, of course I'd prefer this thing to last as long as all those other brands. Of course I do. And it's a super shame that Festool has a problem they won't fix. But at the end of the day, even one Kapex per 3 years (warranty period) costs less than 1% of the revenue it allows me to produce in that same time period. When it's not blown up and smoking like a chimney, it does miter saw things *for me and my workflow* better than any other saw to such a degree that I don't even categorize most other SCMS as an equivalent tool to the Kapex.

A quick example is a commonly-compared saw, the Bosch Glide. It's $700, the Kapex is $1500, an $800 difference. That's gross revenue made in a single day. One day. It's not even worth thinking about with that kind of margin. What *is* worth thinking about, however, is how much a workflow will be impacted by introducing a new component. These are tools, means to an end. Whatever gets from A to B cleanest and quickest is the correct tool. For me that's the Kapex, even with the stupid motor issues that I wish would get resolved. But many others won't have that same need, and that's totally OK too.

Kapex isn't for everyone, but neither is the Bosch, DeWalt, etc.

Are you saying the the Glide won't cut one day, two, or whatever?  Have you heard of similar failures in the Glide? Or maybe you think the Glide won't cut accurately.  Is the minute you save vacuuming up the shavings from the Kapex over the Glide your profit margin?  I don't even own a Glide.  Maybe it's too heavy.  What about the Makita, Dewalt, or Milwaukee?

I had a Kapex. It cut fine. I still had to vac afterward, but not too much.  Just how much of a competitive advantage is that, relative to the risk?  Everyone here acts as if the competition sucks...it doesn't. 

The Domino though, it rocks.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 5172
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2018, 01:13 AM »
But at the end of the day, even one Kapex per 3 years (warranty period) costs less than 1% of the revenue it allows me to produce in that same time period.


Wow ... I envy your business model. That’s a lot of money generated by a single miter saw without any attending auxiliary equipment.



Offline bwehman

  • Posts: 47
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2018, 02:33 AM »
many guys i work with have 10, 15, 20 year old scms made by hitachi, dewalt, and makita still going strong. Its just sad that y'all accept a few years from a $1600 saw and after it fries itself y'all buy another. Why reward festool for designing such garbage.

I agree, 4-5 years of Kapex superiority will never equal the 20 years of service produced by ANY OTHER MITER SAW. Even the compromised brands have a better track record than Kapex...Festool.

Ridiculous... ridiculous not because Festool produced a turd...rather, ridiculous because they never considered it prudent to fix their turd production problem. Just keep cranking those turds out seems to be the Festool mantra.

It just isn't that way for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The value the Kapex brings in terms of production and efficiency makes the cost of one rather immaterial. I mean, of course I'd prefer this thing to last as long as all those other brands. Of course I do. And it's a super shame that Festool has a problem they won't fix. But at the end of the day, even one Kapex per 3 years (warranty period) costs less than 1% of the revenue it allows me to produce in that same time period. When it's not blown up and smoking like a chimney, it does miter saw things *for me and my workflow* better than any other saw to such a degree that I don't even categorize most other SCMS as an equivalent tool to the Kapex.

A quick example is a commonly-compared saw, the Bosch Glide. It's $700, the Kapex is $1500, an $800 difference. That's gross revenue made in a single day. One day. It's not even worth thinking about with that kind of margin. What *is* worth thinking about, however, is how much a workflow will be impacted by introducing a new component. These are tools, means to an end. Whatever gets from A to B cleanest and quickest is the correct tool. For me that's the Kapex, even with the stupid motor issues that I wish would get resolved. But many others won't have that same need, and that's totally OK too.

Kapex isn't for everyone, but neither is the Bosch, DeWalt, etc.

Are you saying the the Glide won't cut one day, two, or whatever?  Have you heard of similar failures in the Glide? Or maybe you think the Glide won't cut accurately.  Is the minute you save vacuuming up the shavings from the Kapex over the Glide your profit margin?  I don't even own a Glide.  Maybe it's too heavy.  What about the Makita, Dewalt, or Milwaukee?

I had a Kapex. It cut fine. I still had to vac afterward, but not too much.  Just how much of a competitive advantage is that, relative to the risk?  Everyone here acts as if the competition sucks...it doesn't. 

The Domino though, it rocks.

I don't want it to sound like I'm saying other tool brands suck. Not at all. Other tool brands make great tools too. Festool doesn't make the best tool in a lot of tool categories, but I really think they make the best system, which is why I continue to stay in it... and why I won't hesitate to replace a failed Kapex with another... but other tools brands make incredible tools too. I'm not stupid like some may think for buying another Kapex. I really think the saw is the actual best saw for what I need a saw to do. The Glide and others are also incredible for their intended person or use.

Offline Duster

  • Posts: 2
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2018, 04:08 PM »
Hello,Im in the market to purchase a Kapex,so I contacted Festool last week and questioned them on burned out motor complaints and this is what they replied to me with :

 Hello,
Thank you for your interest in the Festool Kapex Miter Saw. If you have any reservations about the machine but are still curious to try it for yourself, we would like to remind you that we have a 30-day money-back policy as well as a 3-year warranty. So, buy with confidence, give it a try, and decide for yourself.
 
Please be aware that not all users use the machine alike. There are many variables to consider from material to application. Also, please consider the environment in which the saw would be used and the available power in that environment. The Kapex, when used with a CT Dust Extractor, normally performs most cutting tasks (cutting molding) on a 15 Amp circuit just fine. For heavier cutting tasks (thick stock) it may be necessary to run the Kapex Saw (up to 13 amps) and the CT Dust Extractor (up to 10 amps) on separate circuits so that the saw has the full current of the circuit available.
 
Again, thank you for your interest.
 
Best Regards,
_________________________
Festool USA LLC
400 N. Enterprise Blvd.
Lebanon, IN 46052
 
 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 682
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2018, 04:26 PM »
I think someone has reported about a motor failure even when the saw and dust extractor were plugged into separate circuit outlets. As a precaution (even if it does not help), I run my Kapex and shop vac via an auto switch rated for 30amp current draw (15 +15 outlets).

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2018, 06:03 PM »
Hello,Im in the market to purchase a Kapex,so I contacted Festool last week and questioned them on burned out motor complaints and this is what they replied to me with :

 Hello,
Thank you for your interest in the Festool Kapex Miter Saw. If you have any reservations about the machine but are still curious to try it for yourself, we would like to remind you that we have a 30-day money-back policy as well as a 3-year warranty. So, buy with confidence, give it a try, and decide for yourself.
 
Please be aware that not all users use the machine alike. There are many variables to consider from material to application. Also, please consider the environment in which the saw would be used and the available power in that environment. The Kapex, when used with a CT Dust Extractor, normally performs most cutting tasks (cutting molding) on a 15 Amp circuit just fine. For heavier cutting tasks (thick stock) it may be necessary to run the Kapex Saw (up to 13 amps) and the CT Dust Extractor (up to 10 amps) on separate circuits so that the saw has the full current of the circuit available.
 
Again, thank you for your interest.
 
Best Regards,
_________________________
Festool USA LLC
400 N. Enterprise Blvd.
Lebanon, IN 46052

Interesting if this is an issue what doesn't Festool send out a bulletin to all of us registered owners with that warning?


Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 237
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2018, 07:02 PM »
Festool's silence on this issue is baffling.  It is inconceivable that the several years running tales of Kapex motors letting out the smoke have not seriously hurt Kapex sales.  Silence as an initial reaction while you try to understand the root cause(s) is understandable, but after all this time it seems that either Festool is flummoxed in trying to run this to ground or the fix is too expensive and they just plan to keep whistling by the graveyard.  Other companies in the past have tried the stonewalling strategy on product defect issues, but in hindsight it usually proves that the damage done to the product and company reputation are far more expensive than the fix.

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2018, 07:17 PM »
Festool's silence on this issue is baffling.  It is inconceivable that the several years running tales of Kapex motors letting out the smoke have not seriously hurt Kapex sales.  Silence as an initial reaction while you try to understand the root cause(s) is understandable, but after all this time it seems that either Festool is flummoxed in trying to run this to ground or the fix is too expensive and they just plan to keep whistling by the graveyard.  Other companies in the past have tried the stonewalling strategy on product defect issues, but in hindsight it usually proves that the damage done to the product and company reputation are far more expensive than the fix.

I joined this site over 8 years ago and Festool has used this site to communicate with us and help resolve issues.  Information I have recieved on the FOG has contributed to my purchase of a shop full of Festools including the Kapex in question.

I find it baffling that Festool would risk losing customer loyalty by ignoring an issue kill this? 

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 11607
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2018, 07:47 PM »
I can't say any more than this:  Festool has listened and seen posts here about the Kapex.  Just because we don't read and see the answers we desire about things here doesn't mean that things aren't going on that we don't know about.

Peter


Offline Samo

  • Posts: 555
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2018, 08:30 PM »
https://monterey.craigslist.org/tls/d/festool-kapex-miter-saw/6762468730.html

Not mine but this is not a simple issue.  It is not practical to run the saw and an extractor on a separate circuit in the real world.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 08:39 PM by Samo »

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: My 2012 Kapex let out the smoke today
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2018, 08:35 PM »
I can't say any more than this:  Festool has listened and seen posts here about the Kapex.  Just because we don't read and see the answers we desire about things here doesn't mean that things aren't going on that we don't know about.

Peter

Thank you Peter - this is the last I'll comment on this topic.