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Author Topic: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig  (Read 26314 times)

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Offline fraserbluff

  • Posts: 5
OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« on: January 06, 2009, 05:28 AM »
I have had a Hitachi M12V for about 20 years, but with age it has developed a small amount of wear on the plunge such that when in the plunged position the bit is a "bee's dick" off center.

I thus looked to buy what I hoped to be a vast improvement over a router that was 20 years old, and opted for a Festool OF1400, specifically for use with a Leigh D4R Jig.

As I have discovered, all is not as it seems.

I have the adaptor plate (Festool 463566) to mount the Leigh 716TP bush.

Firstly, the cutter shaft on the Festool is not concentric to the base system. It is about 0.15mm (0.006in) off centre, ie the cutter is 0.3mm (0.012in) closer to one side than the other. It just misses the inside of the 5/8 guide bush. I reinserted the Festool adapter plate @ 180 degrees and no difference. I did the same for the centre screwed mounting plate (permanent part of the base plate) and no difference. It is not the guide bush as it can be rotated with out altering the ?lack of concentricity. Presumably it is the way it is. Given the price and glowing opinions expressed about the Festool stuff, I would have taken it as a given that it would be concentric. My Hitachi was when it was new. I wonder what other people have found?

The Hitachi after 20 years is about the same ?out of concentricity? when plunged because of wear on the plunge guides.

The Festool Base has two straight edges. One has to use the short one that faces the operator if one wants the trigger with the right hand and be able to see and get at the depth settings. This short one runs against the fence for mortises on the Leigh D4R jig. Because it is so short (55mm) it is difficult to keep the Router hard up and against the fence and from rotating off the fence as you slide the route along to do the mortises. Because the router has two straight edges, the longer one is on the opposite side to the fence. This produces a situation where there is more base off the fingers (towards the operator) than being supported (behind the bit). This does seem a bit Irish to me (no disrespect intended). This makes it less stable than if it had a full circle or was reversed. You can turn the router around with the long edge against the fence, but then you are operating wrong handed and with the depth setting away from you. Am I missing something here?

The base is of a lesser diam than the Hitachi and also has a larger cut out in the centre, thus a narrower annulus for support on the jig and thus less of the fingers to support it. Visibility to the jig through the base is better on the Hitachi. With the Festool I am inclined to peer down under the jig to check clearances and finger location.

Also with the Base, I had assumed that the Festool adaptor plate (463566), when inserted, would be at the same level as the base plate, to form a larger bearing surface. It isn?t. It was on my old M12V Hitachi, so that you have a bearing surface the full diam of the base and right across the centre.

There is in fact 0.4mm (0.016in) clearance between the plane of the base plate and the Festool adapter. When the Guide bush is inserted the clearance between the guide bush "base" and the base plate is 0.63mm (0.024in). So when you are doing the tenons and the tenon spacing is more than about 40mm (the width of the annulus formed by the base plate of the router is about 35mm), the router is inclined to drop (by about 0.6mm (0.024in)) until the guide bush "base" rests on the finger of the jig. It makes nice little dents on the edge of the tenons.

Am I missing something here?

To sort it I had to pack the guide bush up 0.6 mm (0.024in), (thickness of an ice cream container lid) so that is in the same plane as the base. I wonder if this has been done on the demonstration router used by Leigh in their promotions of the Leigh jigs.

The Festool has the LHS knob as a plunge lock also. It might seem like a good idea, but I think not. When using it on the Leigh jig doing the Tenons, because of the smaller size of the base, you need to slightly twist on the handle to keep a very slight (away from you) moment on the router. Trouble is, this is inclined to release the lock. Picking the router up with one hand is also likely to cause the same result.

The Hitachi has two solid handles with the plunge lock capable of being operated by your left hand pointer finger whilst still holding the router firmly. Hands don?t leave the machine and the knobs never undo, and I can pick it up with one hand with out fear of any thing undoing.

The "plunge feel" on both routers is on par, although a little less depth on the Hitachi

However, I do like the quick stop of the spinning shaft on the Festool though!

As you would imagine I am a little disappointed. For the money it should have been the ants pants. (Trouble is I don't like the new colours of the Hitachi!)

I have hunted through the old posts and have found a little about the lack of concentricity, which does surprise me. However nothing about the differing heights of the base components.

This is for a router, that here anyway, costs twice the cost of the current Hitachi M12V2

 I am not trying to be smart, just can't figure out why it is only me that it annoys.

Cheers
Donald (On the Rock)

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Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 10:43 AM »
Hi Donald,

Let me throw a few thoughts at you regarding your situation and frustration.
First, I think you are attempting to change from a tool that you were very used to and very comfortable with using in your Hitachi.  Reminds me of when I tried to change from a Delta Unifence to another aftermarket fence after using the Delta for about 10 years.  I just never felt comfortable with the other fence and ended up back with the Unifence and someone else got a good deal on the other fence.  Sometimes it is hard to change from what we are used to and comfortable with using.

I am not sure what led you to pick the 1400 router to use with the leigh but it should be usable without all the issue you seem to have encountered.  I guess with the issues you have I would think about sending it back to Festool for repair or replacement or taking it to your dealer if that is an option.  To me it seems that the quick change feature of the 1400 inserts leave no real way to make adjustments for centering the bit and guide bushing. Perhaps I am missing something related to the 1400 but that is how I see it with the one I have.  I also have a 1010 which I think is a better router for use with the leigh or any other dovetail jig as long as you don't need the 1/2" bit capabilities...which takes you back to the 1400.  The 1010 is smaller and lighter and still has plenty of power for dovetailing.  It also uses a more traditional approach to the template bushings and they can be centered to the bits much easier.  So, I like the 1010 over the 1400 for dovetails other than not having the ability to use the 1/2" shaft cutters with the 1010.

I don't have one yet but plan to get a Festool 700 trim router and think this may be a very good router to use with the dovetail jigs. And I like to have a router set up for each cutter rather than having to change back and forth. It has the offset base, variable speed and ability to take the PC type guide bushings in the base. It is small and light and should have enough power, but like the 1010 has not ability to handle 1/2" bits.  But those are fairly rare in the leigh system.  I have the leigh bit set with 8mm shafts and I think a couple of the bits have 1/2" shafts for the larger dovetail and straight cutters. 

As for the balance issues you may want to look at the new outboard support and dust collection add-ons from leigh. I have one of those with the new 24" Superjig and it is helpful as well as available for the older style D4 models. This also gives another option for chip collection if you don't want to use the Festool capabilities.

So, try to get Festool to help you make it right even if it means replacing some components of your router....that is part of what you are paying for after all.
If you decide to get a different router  think about a 1010 or 700 as god options.

Good Luck,
Todd

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 11:15 AM »
Donald,

You are not the only one who is disappointed in some aspects of the OF 1400.  I am another.

My OF 1400 (purchased new about 3 years ago) has a similar "non-concentric" base problem.  Like you reported, rotating a bushing 180 degrees makes no difference in the amount or direction of the error in alignment. When I first inserted the centering mandrel that came in my Whiteside inlay kit, it would not pass through the hole in the complementary Whiteside brass bushing which was a very tight fit into the Festool-supplied PC adapter snap-in bushing.  My "solution" was to mark the components by filing a slight notch on each, and highlighting that with permanent marker, so I could thereafter always install them in the same relative way, then judiciously filing the threads on the outside of the male brass bushing from Whiteside until I could achieve near concentric alignment by having the brass bushing positioned off center relative to the aluminum ring into which the Festool-supplied PC adapter bushing fits.  Perhaps you can do the same with your bushing components for your Leigh jig.

I earlier wrote of my OF 1400 router's misalignment on FOG, and brought this matter on separate occasions direclty to the attention of the leaders of FestoolUSA and brought my router to a tool show demo where a Festool factory representative confirmed the misalignment and took the base components apart to see if any adjustment was possible.  It is not except by removing the small metal dowel pins that align the fully machined aluminum ring (into which the Festool bushings snap-in) in the aluminum base plate of the OF 1400.  You can remove the screws which retain this aluminum ring and the dowel pins, then enlarge the screw holes to permit proper concentric alignment of the aluminum ring in the base plate.  If you have the right drill bit, after aligning the aluminum ring, you can bore new holes through both the aluminum ring and the base plate and install the dowel pins in them.  I have not undertaken this procedure.

As I stated, Festool refuses to do anything to correct this problem, although they acknowledge its existence.  It baffles me why they bother with the little metal dowel pins.  The could improve the OF 1400 alignment by changing their manufacturing process.  They should assemble the router, then align the aluminum ring within the base plate, and then bore and install the dowel pins while the centering mandrel is in place.  Whatever they did in making this aspect of my router was wasted effort and expense.

Like you, I have found the use of the same grip knob to lock the depth setting to be a source of inadvertent release at times.  That feature coupled with what I think are overly strong plunge return springs have caused me to ruin some workpieces.  Being left-handed, I tend to use my OF 1400 backwards compared to most, with the handle gripped by my left hand.  I don't have a Leigh jig, but I have also noticed that the plane of the bushings is not exactly the same as the plane of the base.  I could not locate Item 463566 in my catalogue or online at FestoolUSA's website through its search engine.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Steve-CO

  • Posts: 787
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 11:44 AM »
I was thinking of picking up the 1400 before the upcoming price increase, you guys are "talking" me out of it. 

Don, if it were me, I would return the 1400 and have your dealer find you one that doesn't have this problem before you take another one.  For the premium price, or any price for that matter, you should be able to plug it in right from the box and have it function as expected.

Offline Zaphod

  • Posts: 57
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 01:27 PM »
As a long time user of a Leigh D4, I wouldn't recommend ANY plunge router for use with the jig.  A PC690 or equivalent is ideal for use with the Leigh jig; it's center of gravity is much lower than a plunge router.  The sub-base is adjustable to center the guide bushing; minor concentric issues can be compensated for by using the router in the same orientation with respect to the jig.




Offline Cannuck

  • Posts: 118
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 01:29 PM »
I'm not trying to dispute the fact that some routers may come out of alignment from the factory, but I do want to point out that my Leigh dovetail jig came with an eccentric bushing.  The leigh supplied bushing must be aligned in the same direction with the jig whenever you route dovetails as the bushing is adjustable to control the tightness of the fit.  Its a patented design from Leigh, and so if I rotate the router duriing the operation it will create uneven pins and tails.

Suffice to say, it may not be a problem with the router, but rather the nature of the Leigh guide bushing.

I've had nothing but GREAT experiences with my OF1400 with and without my Leigh jig!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 01:30 PM by Cannuck »
Hindsight is like foresight, but with no future.

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 02:25 PM »
I was thinking of picking up the 1400 before the upcoming price increase, you guys are "talking" me out of it. 

Don, if it were me, I would return the 1400 and have your dealer find you one that doesn't have this problem before you take another one.  For the premium price, or any price for that matter, you should be able to plug it in right from the box and have it function as expected.

Steve,

Despite my gripe expressed above, I still like my OF 1400 very much and would not discourage others from buying one. The other router I own s listed in order of age are a 6.5A Craftsman commercial fixed base, 10A Stanley Industrial fixed base, Freud 13A with fixed and plunge bases... my "go to" table-mounted router, and a PC 7518 fixed base, also mounted in a table.   I bought the Freud and PC 7518 after the OF 1400 specifically for inverted use in router tables because the OF 1400 is not well suited to use in a typical table setup.  Accessibility to Festool's modular system might change that opinion.   I use my OF 1400 for nearly all non-router table work including making full profile moldings, inlays, installing hinges and patches on old door frames on site as well as in the shop.  It's by far the quietest and smoothest router among the five I own, and the plunge mechanism and ease of its precision adjustment works very well.  And very important to me in many settings, it has by far the best dust collection.   Of the other 4 routers I own, only the Freud has any factory provided dust collection capability, and it is relatively crude, hard to install and much less effective than the Festool router.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 03:03 PM »
I'm not trying to dispute the fact that some routers may come out of alignment from the factory, but I do want to point out that my Leigh dovetail jig came with an eccentric bushing.  The leigh supplied bushing must be aligned in the same direction with the jig whenever you route dovetails as the bushing is adjustable to control the tightness of the fit.  Its a patented design from Leigh, and so if I rotate the router duriing the operation it will create uneven pins and tails.

Suffice to say, it may not be a problem with the router, but rather the nature of the Leigh guide bushing.

I've had nothing but GREAT experiences with my OF1400 with and without my Leigh jig!

Adding to what Cannuck said regarding the leigh jigs...the new Super Jigs have the new eccentric bushing...at least that is how I got mine.  It might be a possible solution for you as it does adjust and lock at the different settings.  I just was at the local woodcraft store this afternoon and they had these eccentrc bushings separately for about $12.  I see no reason why it would not work with the D4, but as far as I know it is only available in the 7/16" size. So, you may still have an issue with the 1/2" shank leigh bits.  Worth looking at perhaps...and maybe a call to leigh too...and find out how they are using the 1400.

Best,
Todd

Offline Zaphod

  • Posts: 57
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 03:28 PM »
The eccentric bushing is for use with the Superjigs, not the D4.  It's used to adjust the fit of half blind sliding dovetails and finger joints as well.  The Superjig cuts both pieces of fixed spaced half blind dovetail simultaneously (like most if not all other 1/2 blind jigs) as opposed to the D4's method of cutting the pin & tail boards seperately.  The Superjig also cuts the pin & tail boards seperately in variable spacing mode, just as the D4.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 11:50 AM by Zaphod »

Offline wnagle

  • Posts: 502
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 05:06 PM »
I aggree with Zaphod...  With my D4R, I use fixed base dewalts... hey have a low center of gravity.  The OF 1400 works well on the Leigh FMT.  I haven't had my of 1400 very long and never checked the concentricity.  I just assumed it would be on tarrget.... I'll have to check it out.
Wayne

 

TS 55, CT 33 x2, ROTEX 150, RO 90, DOMINO 500Q SET, TRION PS 300, OF 1400, MFT/3, ETS 150/3, KAPEX KS 120, DOMINO XL.

Offline fraserbluff

  • Posts: 5
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 07:28 PM »
To all that replied, thanks.

I did need the 1/2 in capabilities, and have organised to get the VRS for the outboard support that it gives. I do intend to remachine the brass guide bush so that it becomes concentric and put alignments marks on it and the adapter plate. But to have to really sucks! The Festool adapter plate (463566) is an extra here ($AU40) that allows the use of the Leigh 716TP and 711TP bushes.

I am unfamiliar with the fixed base router (non plunge?). How would these work on the Leigh Jig when doing the cuts that require a plunge cut, eg the mortices. The tenons can be done with the router depth of cut set prior to entry, but the mortices don't give you that option.

I had contemplated the eBush from Leigh but was told that it only fits the Super Jig and will not take the 1/2 in bits.

I am in the process of getting a response to these issues, but given that you blokes have been there and been ignored, I don't hold much hope.

I would assume that the annulus (or bearing surface) around the guide bush should be at the same height as the plate as a matter of principle?

Unfortunately I did break one of my two commandments when I bought this router. Sight it with my eyes and touch it. Because of my location (an island in the middle of Bass Strait) from such things as tools shops, I let my impatiences over come my good sense just before Xmas.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

Offline Zaphod

  • Posts: 57
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 08:26 PM »
By "Leigh jig" are you referring to the D4 dovetail jig or the FMT?  You mentioned mortises.

Plunge cuts aren't required when making dovetails with the D4.  If you're using the M2 multiple mortise & tenon attachment you do need a plunge router for the mortises. 

The FMT jig requires a plunge router.


Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 09:07 PM »
IIRC the SuperJigs cut the half blind at the same time in "one pass template mode" and can also cut them in the same manner as the D4 in two passes with or without rabbited drawer fronts.  The D4 cannot do the "one pass template mode" dovetails made famous by the PC Omnijig and other low cost one pass dovetail jigs.

I think the eccentric bush may work with the D4 and if I can I may give it a look tomorrow... for $12 it may be worth playing around with too.  There is some information in the Superjigs instructions related to router bit concentricity so that may be worth a look too if the manual is available online from leigh.

Sounds like you need the plunge in at least one router if you are using the D4 Mortise and Tenon jig with it too.

Best,
Todd

Offline mattfc

  • Posts: 553
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 03:34 AM »
Please read this article, although its a super jig, its in effect nearly the same system as D4.
http://www.getwoodworking.com/

Of note is the following comment re oval guide bush:-
Adjusting these joints used to be a matter of fine tuning the height of the cutter, but Leigh has an ingenious guide bush system, though it requires an American-style base configuration of the sort available from Trend. Once the bush is in position, you simply rout the joint and test the fit, and any adjustments are then made by rotating the bush, which has an oval profile that increases or decreases the ratio between the cutter and the bush; the 10 incremental positions mean that the joint can be adjusted by as little as .002in. This does mean that you have to keep the router in the same position as you work through the joint though, so if you have a tendency to rotate the router as you work, the joint will alter accordingly. It?s a good idea in some respects, then, but a little problematical in others

I have the OF1400 and D4R, so will post some pictures with regards to concentricity a bit later

Offline mattfc

  • Posts: 553
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 07:34 AM »
Here are some close ups,

Firstly re the support base, yes the insert (Festool Part No 493566) is slightly lower, but I see this as an advantage:-
  • The insert plate is of a rough finish, so would increase friction at the cost of smooth usage
  • If you also the the VRS (vacuum attachment), the support base when you combine the leigh fingers and the VRS is more than enough

See how the VRS increases the surface area to stabilse the router (its height adjustable also to get it extact with the finger height)


Now re the guide bush, as I mentioned in my previous post, they are by design oval, so rotating changes the offset between the cutter and the bush.. see the red are I have highlighted and how the clearance changes as you rotate the bush.

now rotate 90deg


But.. with the non variable guide bush, on mine the clearance is spot on which ever way I rotate it.. well close enough for my skills



Hope this helps

Matt

Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 09:21 AM »
I don't have it in front of me at the time but I thought my SuperJig manual said that the Ebush was mainly used for adjusting the fit of the fingerjoints. 
Also it says upfront that the concentric relationship between the bit and the router bushing does not matter as it is adjusted out in the initial jig adjustments...or something like that...

Best,
Todd

Offline fraserbluff

  • Posts: 5
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 05:38 PM »
mattfc/notorious

When you place a straight edge across the base with either guide bush fitted, is there clearance or otherwise to the annulus of the guidebush. Could you check this please?

The adaptor plate being lower is not a problem as long as the annulus of the guide bush is on the same plane as the base, so that the fingers support it for the reasons given in my first post.

I am aware that the lack concentricity issue can be "adjusted out"  by the Leigh jig. So that really begs the question:
If the router is not made to tighter manufacturing tolerances than router 1/2 the price, the only advantages are almost "cosmetic". It is slightly quieter ( normally wear ear muffs), has a quick stop (I do like that!), one spanner bit change (what router doesnt have that), and twice the price (almost $AU1000).

I assume that the eBush is only available in the 7/16 and costs around $AU30.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4594
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 05:55 PM »
The Hitachi M12V was so under rated it crazy. One of my favorite routers and I am sorry I sold all three of mine. I had two brand new in the box I bought 8 years ago.I sold them for 185.00 each and used the money to get a festool router.

Even after 20 years it is still one of my favorite overall routers. It is powerful. It stated 15 amps, but blew a lot of people 15 amp circuits.

I miss the darn thing, talk about a work horse. I had one 15 years old and sold it for 110.00 and it NEVER gave a hint of breaking down.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:57 PM by nickao »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline mattfc

  • Posts: 553
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2009, 03:53 AM »
mattfc/notorious

When you place a straight edge across the base with either guide bush fitted, is there clearance or otherwise to the annulus of the guidebush. Could you check this please?


No it isn't (flat), the guide bush adapter is further inset than the base, and the guide bush is further inset than the adapter.

Fraser, I am pretty sure this is by design, since the surface finish of the guide bush adapter is not what I would expect of Festool if it was intended for contact with routing surface (based on all their other products)

From my perspective any way, the important part of the guide bush is the collet piece that follows the actual finger, there is enough surface for the router to be stable in combo with the VRS.

I guess if you want to use the adapter to extend the base, only option is to polish it up and pack it out? Or see if you can return your router.

Sorry that you are not having a good time of it.

Matt

Offline Tom Bellemare

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  • Festool demo's & personal service in Central Texas
    • Tool Home LLC
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2009, 11:45 AM »
Hitachi doesn't sell the M12V any more.

Now they sell the M12V2:

13098-0

It kind of looks like a modern tennis shoe designer found a home there...

The base is different so they don't swap out for an old one that was mounted.

I had a customer tell me he couldn't bring one of these into his house because of the expense. He thought his kid would have nightmares and psychological trauma that would require a shrink for the rest of his life.


Tom
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 11:47 AM by Tom Bellemare »
Tom Bellemare
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Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2009, 02:31 PM »
Just about the time I was ready and able to buy a table and router, Hitachi had discontinued M12V router.  As a result of that and Festool's experts recommendation not to try mounting my OF 1400 in a table, I eventually bought a PC 7518, which is overkill for the limited use I will give it.  It baffles me why any company would entirely replace a product that has been well accepted and relatively free of major problems.  And why change how it mounts to a router table unless there was a major problem with the old model?  What does the M12V2 offer besides a gawdy decor?

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Barry Londrigan

  • Posts: 180
  • Newark, Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2009, 02:36 PM »
I agree that looks like a sneaker.  Dave, I think that you came out smelling like a rose....you're PC 7518 will take some abuse...and bigger is better :)

Offline polarsea1

  • Posts: 288
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2009, 02:44 PM »
Looks more like a Kawasaki Ninja to me. ;D

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2009, 02:57 PM »
Dave:

I think a lot of the changes that have occured in the last several years to tool lines have been the result of corporate acquisitions and/or moving manufacturing offshore.

With the race to the bottom of the price pool, has come a race to outsource manufacturing, typically offshore or south of the border. When B&D bought DW and PC, they proceeded to "re-engineer" the power tools, even the ones that didn't need it. It appears the whole effort was to accomodate the tooling that was readily available and the processes that could be handled where they were planning to move mfg. There were some classic power tools that were extremely well loved that are no longer available and their replacements often are either inferior in quality or have some fatal design flaw, or both. A classic example is a DW palm sander that sold out the wazoo. B&D had it redesigned and outsourced, calling it "improved" in their literature. When people used the new "improved" version, the exhaust from the sander would burn their wrist. You won't find ANY B&D products at Tool Home. Though I can get them, it is embarassing to be associated with that company.

A big conglomerate bought a revered soldering iron mfr, known for quality industrial soldering guns with copper secondaries (where the tips meet the gun). When they moved the mfg to Mexico, they went to all aluminum secondaries, (with set screws), throughout their products. Aluminum oxide is an insulator. Soldering guns require electricity to the tip. They didn't even change their documentation or warn anyone of the change...

I can go on and on...

In another thread on the FOG, it was (sort of) suggested that Festool follow suit. I hope that doesn't happen.


Tom
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 03:02 PM by Tom Bellemare »
Tom Bellemare
Customer Svc
Tool Home LLC
www.tool-home.com
512-428-9140

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2009, 03:33 PM »
Right on, Tom.  There is no substitute for quality!

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2009, 05:15 PM »
Often the re-design is done to reduce the number of components or to make the assembly process easier for les.s skilled or less educated workers to assemble.
I have the M12V's father the M12 which is single speed only. When I started building interior/exterior doors it was the only router I could find and afford that would plunge more than 3 inches to cut the mortises for the loose mortise and tenon joints.  The plunge system seemed to wear very fast under those conditions and I was constantly taking it apart to clean the plunge mechanism.

My buddy helped me out with a project and as part of thanking him I bought him the then brand new M12V.  He is still using it in his router table I think...
The rest of my thanks to him was I built his front entry for him when he built his house a couple years later. All he had to do is buy the wood and glass, then help me install it into the house...

Best,
Todd

Offline mark90

  • Posts: 33
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2009, 07:25 PM »
what

Offline fraserbluff

  • Posts: 5
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2009, 05:17 AM »
Just a little more information to give some idea of the lack of manufacturing tolerance that even Festool get up to. The Festool adapter Part (463566) for the Porter Cable style guide bush is machined internally to a diameter of 35.2mm (presumably being close enough to 35mm which is close enough to 1 3/8" though not really.) This is to accomodate the guidebush that has a nominal outside diam of 1 3/8" (34.925mm). Now as a rule and for easy insertion either the Festool adapter should be slightly larger or the bush slightly smaller, slightly being the operative word. To achieve this the two manufacturers would, I assume talk to one another, so that the clearance for the two items is sufficient for easy fit but not too large to end up with a sloppy fit or too tight with an interference fit.

That is too simple. Festool have added 0.275mm (0.011") and the manufacturer of the bush have machined an extra 0.005" from the 1 3/8" diam to give a sloppy fit.

Just for fun I suppose!

Getting back to the first post, I intend to machine the guide bush tomorrow, off centre by 0.15mm, after building it up with silver solder. That will fix the concentricity problems. I will do the same with the outer boss of the guide bush so that it fits snuggly into  the oversize  Festool Adapter.

Donald (on the Rock)

Offline Notorious T.O.D.

  • Posts: 506
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2009, 10:12 AM »
Donald.

Looking at this type of product I would be very surprised if the Festool designers ever talked to the PC folks about the adapter to bushing interface.
The PC bushings have probably not changed design in years if ever and they or some subcontractor just crank them out. Also there are a couple other manufacturers making the PC style guide bushings today.  Who knows how these compare dimentionally to the PC and to each other, but I will bet that they don't match exactly either.  I think these type of router plate to template guide issues were the driving factor in leigh investing the time and money to create their own plates and guide busings.

Perhaps Festool will come up with a revised and better system that can be retro-fit to the 1400.  I personally don't care for the 1400s current system that much as it is. I find it easy to get the template jambed if each side is not put in place or removed at exactly the same time from the clips.  I also find
I could use a third hand to push the two clips and pull the template out of the router base.  Just my thoughts as a shot term owner of a 1400 and 1010 too. Right now the 1010 would be my choice for template work and perhaps the 700 in the future when I get one of those.

We also have to keep in mind what a master tool and die maker once told me about 20 years ago too, " Keep in mind this is WOOD working and not metal machining and the tolerances with wood will never be what one would expect and need from metal."

Best,
Todd

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2009, 10:17 AM »
Fraser,

The PC adapter bushing supplied with my OF 1400 (about 3 years ago) and the Whiteside inlay kit brass bushing are an interference fit.  There is zero slop.  It is difficult to insert the Whitside bushing.  I had to file down the external threads of the Whiteside bushing slightly to facilitate installation.  I also bought a brass PC bushing kit from Woodcraft.  Those bushings do have a slight amount of radial play.

Todd,

I agree with the occasional need for a third hand when trying to remove the snap-in bushings from my OF 1400, which I had to frequently do when routing the shelves for my entertainment center project.  But even so, the Festool system enabled me to more quickly switch out bushings and thus work more quickly than if I had to change PC style bushings for each step of my process.

Hopefully, Festool will (or already has) revisit its manufacturing process to improve centricity of the mounting ring in the base of the OF 1400.  They just need to check concentricity before they mount the aluminum ring in the base of the the OF 1400 and drill / install the dowel pins.  Perhaps they have been joining the aluminum ring to the base before installing the base on the plunge rods, thus enabling errors in alignment to cumulate.

Dave R.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 10:26 AM by Dave Ronyak »
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.