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Author Topic: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.  (Read 4532 times)

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Offline guyscott

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Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« on: April 19, 2018, 07:09 AM »
Hello!

I bought the new domino connector set KV-SYS D8 and have had a play around with all the connector types. They all work exactly as you would expect them to except for the MSV D8/25 - the one that joins two adjacent shelves through a gable with a domino slot.
The piece that passes through the gable has a plastic domino that holds it in the slot. This plastic domnio has a small flange at either end that stops it pulling through the hole.



These flanges are, necessarily, wider than the domino slot and stand about 0.5mm proud of the surface of the board. Unfortunately, this means that the adjoining connector is unable to pull the shelf tight to the surface of the gable.



The most reasonable solution I've been able to come up with is to countersink the domino slot in  the adjoining shelf to give the flange somewhere to go.



It works, but feels like a bit of an ugly and time consuming hack for such an expensive piece of hardware!

I hope I'm missing something obvious and welcome any thoughts!

Guy

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 09:17 AM »
In looking at the manual and also my kit. There is indeed an approximate .5mm flange on both sides when using that fitting.  I admit that I haven't tried it but if a tighter fitting of shelf to upright is desired in this instance I would think about trimming or sanding the flange off before I went to the effort of counter sinking.  If the black portion is adjusted to the width of your upright or slightly less, when you tighten everything down the clamping pressure is from the shelves pulling towards the upright.

Just a thought.

Peter

Offline guyscott

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 09:37 AM »
Thanks Peter.

I did considered modifying the connector as opposed to the domino slot but, on balance, thought it would be moderately more effort - the countersink was just once round the rim of the slot with a small chisel. It just doesn't seem right to me that either should be necessary! Surely no one is looking for a connection that's not quite flush?!

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 09:52 AM »
I understand your point and totally respect it.  I don't work for Festool but in looking at those connectors I only see the flanges as a way to hold the connector in place while assembling or getting ready to assemble. 

Maybe over the weekend I will get a chance to experiment with my set too.

Peter

Offline guyscott

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2018, 10:45 AM »
Thanks again Peter, I really appreciate you taking the time to consider my problems!

The flanges are certainly handy in that they allow the two sides to be tightened independently of one another and, as you say, to hold the thing in place during assembly. The MSV LR/32 has all these benefits AND gives a good flush connection, but it needs an accurately positioned 5mm hole to be drilled...and, you know, I want to use my DF500 that's all set up already!

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2018, 03:01 PM »
Looks like a design oversight to me. Or they forgot to include the specialist tool to countersink the mortices for these. *Or we overlook something

I think they should put the plastic for the flange on the next batch as a small rib on the sides (as the wood dominos have) to keep them from falling out of the mortice instead.

Edit: * added 'possibly not their fault'
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 04:17 AM by Gregor »

Offline guyscott

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 03:37 AM »
Is it just me or does this image from the festool website show a small countersink cut into the domino slot on the right hand shelf?


Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 04:16 AM »
Could it be that you used a 700XL to make the mortices?

Reason I ask is: when you fully plunge with the domino the widening end of the bit will make a (kind-of) countersink, and as the bits on the 500 are shorter than on the 700...

(my connector systainer is scheduled to finally arrive today - will do some tests over the weekend and report back)

Offline guyscott

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 05:57 AM »
Hi Gregor.

I've had the 5mm cutter on my mind, because that has the tapered shoulder that gives exactly that countersink if you plunge beyond it's limit (where the other DF500 cutters have square shoulders). I hadn't considered using the XL to plunge deeper with the 8mm cutter - that's an interesting plan! I've got that Seneca bit to put the small cutters on the XL, so I'll give it a go. It'll be interesting to see if the square shoulder can give that little extra width that's needed when it's crammed into the hole!


Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2018, 11:08 AM »
I've had the 5mm cutter on my mind, because that has the tapered shoulder that gives exactly that countersink if you plunge beyond it's limit (where the other DF500 cutters have square shoulders).
I had the DF 500 5mm one in mind too as of the taper, but I just looked at my DF 500 bits and all the others don't have it - they end in an 8mm diameter end on the machine side.
Quote
I hadn't considered using the XL to plunge deeper with the 8mm cutter - that's an interesting plan! I've got that Seneca bit to put the small cutters on the XL, so I'll give it a go. It'll be interesting to see if the square shoulder can give that little extra width that's needed when it's crammed into the hole!
The mortice would get ~1cm deeper, plus I don't know if the Domino will like being used as a dremel substitute...

Disregard my comment (asking about using the 700XL) above please, it was misguided.

Offline zapdafish

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2018, 01:42 PM »

youtube vid

8:51 zoomed in, i think it looks flush.

Couldn't understand him so he may have said what to do while demonstrating how to make that cut.

dunno how to post a vid with the image, srry
CT22, TS55, Kapex, RO150, Domino, RS 2 E

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2018, 03:05 AM »
8:51 zoomed in, i think it looks flush.

Couldn't understand him so he may have said what to do while demonstrating how to make that cut.
He's talking about how the screws can be screwed.

Quote
dunno how to post a vid with the image, srry
Right-click the video that moment, select 'video URL at this moment' (or similar) to link to that point in time in the video.

Offline ear3

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 06:56 AM »
Got my set the other day -- am planning out a large shelving unit that I will be building in June.

Based upon the observations here, and the fact that it will be a shelf-pin unit, I will probably use the shelf pin connectors for the mid-panel shelves.  It's going to be a tall unit, so while most of the shelves will be adjustable, I am going to have a fixed shelf midway up the unit secured with the connectors so that all of the columns of the unit maintain a consistent width, instead of bowing out in the middle, as sometimes happens when building tall shelving without any other means of fixing the width (like a face frame or back). 

But I have a question about positioning when using the shelf-pin connectors.  On the vertical, I will be plunging the holes with the LR32 setup.  But the corresponding mortises on the fixed, horizontal shelf will be made with the Domino.  So in order to get everything to line up, I guess you just have to be super careful and precise about where you plunge the mortise on the fixed, horizontal shelf?  There seems to be no other way to transfer the same offset from the edge that one does on the vertical with the LR32 holes over to the mortises on the horizontal shelf -- other than by eye and careful measurement.   
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 07:36 AM »
Got my set the other day -- am planning out a large shelving unit that I will be building in June.

Based upon the observations here, and the fact that it will be a shelf-pin unit, I will probably use the shelf pin connectors for the mid-panel shelves.  It's going to be a tall unit, so while most of the shelves will be adjustable, I am going to have a fixed shelf midway up the unit secured with the connectors so that all of the columns of the unit maintain a consistent width, instead of bowing out in the middle, as sometimes happens when building tall shelving without any other means of fixing the width (like a face frame or back). 

But I have a question about positioning when using the shelf-pin connectors.  On the vertical, I will be plunging the holes with the LR32 setup.  But the corresponding mortises on the fixed, horizontal shelf will be made with the Domino.  So in order to get everything to line up, I guess you just have to be super careful and precise about where you plunge the mortise on the fixed, horizontal shelf?  There seems to be no other way to transfer the same offset from the edge that one does on the vertical with the LR32 holes over to the mortises on the horizontal shelf -- other than by eye and careful measurement.

@ear3    Use the pins or paddles on the Domino if you are using 37mm offset.  I have a pin model and the distance from the inside of the pin to the center of the Domino mortise is 37 mm.  I assume that measurement was also carried forward to the plastic paddle model.  Or use the stops accessory.

Peter

Peter

Offline ear3

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 07:42 AM »
Thanks @Peter Halle

I guess that means that the variable gets thrown back onto setting the LR32 offset to the corresponding 37mm. 

Got my set the other day -- am planning out a large shelving unit that I will be building in June.

Based upon the observations here, and the fact that it will be a shelf-pin unit, I will probably use the shelf pin connectors for the mid-panel shelves.  It's going to be a tall unit, so while most of the shelves will be adjustable, I am going to have a fixed shelf midway up the unit secured with the connectors so that all of the columns of the unit maintain a consistent width, instead of bowing out in the middle, as sometimes happens when building tall shelving without any other means of fixing the width (like a face frame or back). 

But I have a question about positioning when using the shelf-pin connectors.  On the vertical, I will be plunging the holes with the LR32 setup.  But the corresponding mortises on the fixed, horizontal shelf will be made with the Domino.  So in order to get everything to line up, I guess you just have to be super careful and precise about where you plunge the mortise on the fixed, horizontal shelf?  There seems to be no other way to transfer the same offset from the edge that one does on the vertical with the LR32 holes over to the mortises on the horizontal shelf -- other than by eye and careful measurement.

@ear3    Use the pins or paddles on the Domino if you are using 37mm offset.  I have a pin model and the distance from the inside of the pin to the center of the Domino mortise is 37 mm.  I assume that measurement was also carried forward to the plastic paddle model.  Or use the stops accessory.

Peter

Peter
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 08:43 AM »
But that 37 mm offset is fairly standard in the 32mm cabinet world for pins, hinges, drawer slides, etc. 

Of course if you are doing a one off or custom offsets you could use:


Offline jimbo51

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 04:17 PM »
What is the answer to the original question about the flange apparently preventing a tight fitting joint?

Festool personnel have now had time to see the question. When will Festool have an official answer?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2018, 08:46 AM »
Going back to the original question in this thread, Festool Sedge just posted a tip on Instagram on how to handle this situation:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjfn0lknj5G/?hl=en&taken-by=festoolsedge

As he says: "I hope this helps!" #festoolsedge

Peter

Offline Cheese

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2018, 10:50 AM »
Thanks for that Peter...what a great idea.  [cool]

I noticed at the local Woodcraft that on their Festool demo set, which joined a vertical and 2 horizontal pieces, that the flange was NOT recessed which left a small gap between all the joints. [sad]

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2018, 04:38 AM »
Going back to the original question in this thread, Festool Sedge just posted a tip on Instagram on how to handle this situation:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjfn0lknj5G/?hl=en&taken-by=festoolsedge
Given that the connector pulls the connection together and the plastic tab (that he nudges in with the domino) is solely to stop the round part from falling out (it dosn't seem to take any load) I would expect the flange to push in that tab when tightening the screw anyway - if the flange would actually go into the mortice.
But as the mortice in the center part is the same size as the ones in the outside parts (as being made with the same cutter) the flange would, in case it's able to go into the outsides, also fit into the center part (which it dosn't)... thus I'm at a loss on how tapping in the plastic tab could possibly make any difference.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2018, 09:08 AM »
@Gregor

I just so happen to have my MFT/3, my Domino 500, my CT-22, and a connector set all sitting in my living room right now.  I will try to show results later after I deal with some more pressing (no pun intended) issues.

Peter

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2018, 12:07 PM »
I just so happen to have my MFT/3, my Domino 500, my CT-22, and a connector set all sitting in my living room right now.
Sounds like a nicely decorated living room ;)

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2018, 02:31 PM »
My living room has been multipurpose at times over the years.  The Best / worst was when I had stacks of systainers 12' tall next to the Christmas tree.

Anyway,  I broke out the Domino 500 connector set for the first time other than to just look at it.  I imitated the joint the Sedge showed and the one that the OP was asking about.

Here are images of what the result was.  It should be noted that you can get the connectors snug or you can get them more than snug.  I suspect that on the side that shows "not tapped in" I may have tightened more than others would which would also help reduce any gap.







Peter

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2018, 06:10 PM »
Beautiful dog!
Birdhunter

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2018, 07:00 PM »
Beautiful dog!

@Birdhunter , that's Indiana Jones.  He is my only dog since Mr. Moose who is not afraid of power tool noise.


Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2018, 07:44 PM »
My pup, Abigail, a Boykin Spaniel, supervises my woodworking. However, it’s often with her eyes closed and laying in a pile of wood chips. When it’s time for lunch or dinner, she comes to me and stares. She’s good company as I expect Indiana Jones is for you.
Birdhunter

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2018, 05:01 PM »
@Peter Halle
To get you right: for flush settings the holding tabs have better been pushed in beyond flush?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2018, 05:52 PM »
It will work out without a gap if the non-flanged side (which goes into the shelf) is tapped in. 

Peter

Offline ear3

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2018, 07:33 AM »
Rather than start a new thread, let me just post a quick question on the mid panel connectors in this one:

When using the mid-panel connectors (either the domino mortise version or the LR32 version) what is the maximum thickness of the board you can get away with?  Is it the 28mm listed in the specs (which would be equal to a derssed 5/4 board)?  Has anyone here tried pushing it to that maximum?

I ask because I'm building a large, multi-columned book shelving unit, and trying to decide whether to make the verticals out of 5/4 material, which would be aesthetically more pleasing.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Gregor

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Re: Problem with the MSV D8/25 domino connector.
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2018, 03:49 PM »
Rather than start a new thread, let me just post a quick question on the mid panel connectors in this one:

When using the mid-panel connectors (either the domino mortise version or the LR32 version) what is the maximum thickness of the board you can get away with?
I havn't played with them that much yet, but:

You should be able to get away with a thicker middle board by adding a shim (1/2 the additional thickness of the middle board) to the reference face for the boaring tool (the face where the tounge goes into the domino mortice) - this would move the location of the holes (where youput the fasterener into the side boards) the needed distance toward the middle board, so that the connector will be long enough even with a thicker middle board than what is in the manual.