Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: RO 90 Static electricity  (Read 11040 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wiigian

  • Posts: 4
RO 90 Static electricity
« on: July 10, 2016, 06:53 PM »
I recently got myself a RO 90, and used it for the first time on a real project today.
The project is a ceiling mounted MDF box for a kitchen exhaust hood.
I had used filler to cover up the screw holes and the gaps between the panels in this box.

After a few minutes of sanding the filler, the RO90 started to shut itself down.
Not completely, but for about half a second and then it powered up again.
This happened quite often, maybe once every minute or so.
I noticed a quite powerful spark on my hand from the machine sometimes, so I figured this must be caused by the static electricity.

It was hooked up to a wet/dry vacuum (Nilfisk Multi 20) with auto start, which again was connected to a grounded outlet.

Do I need to use a Festool Extractor with these sanders? Or at least a special hose? I'm a bit surprised, I've never experienced something like this with my Bosch RO sander.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2362
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2016, 06:58 PM »
First welcome to the forum!

Were you using an antistatic hose?   I'm not familiar with that vacuum and how it might dissipate static.  I have an RO90 on a couple of Festool vacs with antistatic hoses and have had no problems at all.

I'm also wondering if you had the cord fully engaged on the sander, or perhaps you were experiencing intermittent power to the sander itself.



Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2135
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2016, 07:04 PM »
Make sure it wasn't the Vac shutting down Auto power to the Tool due to static electricity.
So, is the hose connected to the Vac Anti-Static, AND, is that outlet really grounded?  Sometimes the ground isn't really there , but a quick check with a simple tester will prove if it's okay.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5636
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2016, 07:18 PM »
Do you have the same problem when you use the sander without the vac?

The Nilfisk propbably will not dissipate the static charge like the Festool vacs do, but a bit of static shouldn't stop the sander from working.

I think you're better off by speaking to a Festool product specialist than asking here, they might know more about your specific problem.

Offline Mort

  • Posts: 353
  • World's Tallest Midget
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 12:10 AM »
I've used my RO90 with Craftsman vacs, with no vac, and always in a low humidity environment. No sparky sparky here.
I hate signatures.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 06:40 AM »
Do you have the same problem when you use the sander without the vac?

The Nilfisk propbably will not dissipate the static charge like the Festool vacs do, but a bit of static shouldn't stop the sander from working.
...

Really?

Nilfisk made the origional vacuums that Festool rebranded, and Nilfisk have been making vacuumed for a long time. I have a hard time believing that Festool knows more than Nilfisk about HEPA vacuums, or that Nilfisk are somehow inferior.It seems a somewhat nonsensical way to approach solving the problem.
However a volt meter may be an ideal place to start combined with the "test the outlet recommendation", and the "is the hose anti static" question.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2016, 06:58 AM »
Do you have the same problem when you use the sander without the vac?

The Nilfisk propbably will not dissipate the static charge like the Festool vacs do, but a bit of static shouldn't stop the sander from working.
...

Really?

Nilfisk made the origional vacuums that Festool rebranded, and Nilfisk have been making vacuumed for a long time. I have a hard time believing that Festool knows more than Nilfisk about HEPA vacuums, or that Nilfisk are somehow inferior.It seems a somewhat nonsensical way to approach solving the problem.
However a volt meter may be an ideal place to start combined with the "test the outlet recommendation", and the "is the hose anti static" question.

Sorry but you're talking complete sh...

Everyone knows Festool make the best everything and made it all first. When god told Noah to build an ark, Noah said no problem I'll get my tracksaw and midi!

Offline woodwrights_corner

  • Posts: 68
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2016, 07:15 AM »
Is this a brand new RO 90?  If you purchased it used, check out the cord.  It may have a break in it that is turning it on and off.   

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5636
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2016, 08:43 AM »
Do you have the same problem when you use the sander without the vac?

The Nilfisk propbably will not dissipate the static charge like the Festool vacs do, but a bit of static shouldn't stop the sander from working.
...

Really?

Nilfisk made the origional vacuums that Festool rebranded, and Nilfisk have been making vacuumed for a long time. I have a hard time believing that Festool knows more than Nilfisk about HEPA vacuums, or that Nilfisk are somehow inferior.It seems a somewhat nonsensical way to approach solving the problem.
However a volt meter may be an ideal place to start combined with the "test the outlet recommendation", and the "is the hose anti static" question.

Since you mention anti-static, do you actually realise how central this feature is to the entire issue? You need an anti-static hose with electric conductivity to close the circuit, or else static electricity will not be dissipated to the ground.

Now this might come as a big suprise to you, but anti-static hoses are not a given with vacs of any type, they are still quite rare, especially on the cheaper models. Please show me where Nilfisk mentions the hose for this particular vac is anti-static.

https://consumer.nilfisk.com/en/products/Pages/product.aspx?fid=16262

A quick search on the model number also shows the Nilfisk vac is a pretty basic hobbyist vac and can not possibly be expected to compete with a professional €650 high end vac.

http://www.stofzuigerstore.nl/product/429611/nilfisk-multi-20-t.html

Festool's 27mm anti-static hose ALONE costs more than this entire vac.

So yeah, really.

- It really does pay off to do an occasional google search so now and then.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 08:47 AM by Alex »

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2016, 08:56 AM »
Well I took the fluke out, and cannot get a measurement from the hose end at the tool to the ground at the plug. This is mpwith the switch on.

Going from one end of the hose to the other also does not give me a conductance <20 M ohms.

All on a CT26.

How does one measure the grounding and anti static conductance?

It seems odd.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 864
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2016, 09:21 AM »

How does one measure the grounding and anti static conductance?

It seems odd.

With a megger.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8335
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 09:29 AM »
I recently got myself a RO 90, and used it for the first time on a real project today.
The project is a ceiling mounted MDF box for a kitchen exhaust hood.
I had used filler to cover up the screw holes and the gaps between the panels in this box.

After a few minutes of sanding the filler, the RO90 started to shut itself down.
Not completely, but for about half a second and then it powered up again.
This happened quite often, maybe once every minute or so.
I noticed a quite powerful spark on my hand from the machine sometimes, so I figured this must be caused by the static electricity.

It was hooked up to a wet/dry vacuum (Nilfisk Multi 20) with auto start, which again was connected to a grounded outlet.

Do I need to use a Festool Extractor with these sanders? Or at least a special hose? I'm a bit surprised, I've never experienced something like this with my Bosch RO sander.

Hi,

   Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

     The hose needs to be Anti-static   and the vac needs to be designed / able to continue the anti-static path from the hose to the ground.

     Also , as neilc said,  make sure the plug-it cord is fully locked in to the sander. Sometimes it can take a surprisingly hard twist to have it fully engaged. If it is not , then it could cause the intermittent power problem.

    Seth

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2135
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 04:56 PM »
I recently got myself a RO 90, and used it for the first time on a real project today.
The project is a ceiling mounted MDF box for a kitchen exhaust hood.
I had used filler to cover up the screw holes and the gaps between the panels in this box.

After a few minutes of sanding the filler, the RO90 started to shut itself down.
Not completely, but for about half a second and then it powered up again.
This happened quite often, maybe once every minute or so.
I noticed a quite powerful spark on my hand from the machine sometimes, so I figured this must be caused by the static electricity.

It was hooked up to a wet/dry vacuum (Nilfisk Multi 20) with auto start, which again was connected to a grounded outlet.

Do I need to use a Festool Extractor with these sanders? Or at least a special hose? I'm a bit surprised, I've never experienced something like this with my Bosch RO sander.

Hi,

   Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

     The hose needs to be Anti-static   and the vac needs to be designed / able to continue the anti-static path from the hose to the ground.

     Also , as neilc said,  make sure the plug-it cord is fully locked in to the sander. Sometimes it can take a surprisingly hard twist to have it fully engaged. If it is not , then it could cause the intermittent power problem.

    Seth
. Good Point about the Plug-It cord. I'm so used to them that I forget someone new to the system could get it loose in the tool.... [embarassed]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline jumpinthefire

  • Posts: 11
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 07:07 PM »
Quote from: Holmz on Today at 06:40 AM
Quote from: Alex on Yesterday at 07:18 PM

Sorry but you're talking complete sh...

Everyone knows Festool make the best everything and made it all first. When god told Noah to build an ark, Noah said no problem I'll get my tracksaw and midi!

 ;D [laughing]

Offline Wiigian

  • Posts: 4
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2016, 05:39 PM »
Thank you for the warm welcome, suggestions and insights!

I discovered while sanding more that removing my shoes and using a wooden box to stand on instead of the metal stepladder with rubber feet eliminated the problem. I think this means that the static buildup was between me and the sander, and not between the sander and the vacuum. The vacuum also gave me a quite powerful spark when touching it after the sanding.

I did check the plug-it connector twice while I had this issue, to make sure it was fully engaged, which it was.
The RO90 is brand new, so I don't suspect any trouble with the cable.

To be on the safe side, I'm looking into buying a Festool 27 mm anti-static hose for the Nilfisk, although I haven't had any problems with this before. I've used it a lot on my TS55, OF1400 and Carvex.



Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5636
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 03:21 AM »
Thank you for the warm welcome, suggestions and insights!

I discovered while sanding more that removing my shoes and using a wooden box to stand on instead of the metal stepladder with rubber feet eliminated the problem. I think this means that the static buildup was between me and the sander, and not between the sander and the vacuum. The vacuum also gave me a quite powerful spark when touching it after the sanding.

I did check the plug-it connector twice while I had this issue, to make sure it was fully engaged, which it was.
The RO90 is brand new, so I don't suspect any trouble with the cable.

To be on the safe side, I'm looking into buying a Festool 27 mm anti-static hose for the Nilfisk, although I haven't had any problems with this before. I've used it a lot on my TS55, OF1400 and Carvex.

Buying the Festool hose will not help you with the static if the vac itself does not close the circuit to the ground.

Offline imaginarynumber

  • Posts: 60
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2016, 05:25 PM »
Not sure why there is so much animosity towards Nilfisk.

My Festool CT22 was made by Nilfisk and when I stuffed up the motor I saved 40% by purchasing the Nilfisk branded motor rather than buying the one in a Festool box.

Regarding antiistatic hoses... other than colour (and price), can anyone spot the difference between the Nilfisk hose on this link and the Festool branded one?

https://vacuumdoctor.com.au/products/nilfisk-alto-anti-static-hose-for-connection-to-power-tools

I had assumed that my Midi is made for Festool by Nilfisk, am I wrong?



 

Offline imaginarynumber

  • Posts: 60
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 05:47 PM »
For what it is worth, Christian Oltzscher explains the importance of conductivity in more detail here

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/static-and-anti-static-hoses/

As an aside, although I am a UK customer, Christian has been instrumental in my having remained a Festool customer after I had issues with the early plug it hoses working loose. Top man- is he still with Festool USA?




Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11241
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 06:46 PM »
For what it is worth, Christian Oltzscher explains the importance of conductivity in more detail here

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/static-and-anti-static-hoses/

As an aside, although I am a UK customer, Christian has been instrumental in my having remained a Festool customer after I had issues with the early plug it hoses working loose. Top man- is he still with Festool USA?

Christian is now CSO for Festool (worldwide).

Peter

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5636
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 08:09 PM »
My Festool CT22 was made by Nilfisk and when I stuffed up the motor I saved 40% by purchasing the Nilfisk branded motor rather than buying the one in a Festool box.

The CT22 was actually a rebranded Kranzle vac. But Kranzle probably did not make the motor but ordered one from a specialised manufacturer like Nilfisk-Alto.

I had assumed that my Midi is made for Festool by Nilfisk, am I wrong?

The Midi and all other current Festool vacs are made by Festool themselves, they set up a special venture that falls under Festool's mother company, the TTS umbrella. But again, they'll probably order their motors somewhere else.

Not sure why there is so much animosity towards Nilfisk.

I'm not sure either, because there is none. Maybe not make stuff up.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 08:13 PM by Alex »

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 244
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 09:43 PM »
Not sure why there is so much animosity towards Nilfisk.

My Festool CT22 was made by Nilfisk and when I stuffed up the motor I saved 40% by purchasing the Nilfisk branded motor rather than buying the one in a Festool box.

Regarding antiistatic hoses... other than colour (and price), can anyone spot the difference between the Nilfisk hose on this link and the Festool branded one?

https://vacuumdoctor.com.au/products/nilfisk-alto-anti-static-hose-for-connection-to-power-tools

I had assumed that my Midi is made for Festool by Nilfisk, am I wrong?


I'm sure the motors are common to many Kraut mfr's, but Festo's vacs have been made by Kraenzle for many years.  Part of their greater fourth reich.  The CT22 is a model Ventos 25 in the Kraenzle stable.  I've also heard of ppl using "Makita" vac motors in their CT vacs!

To achieve full a/s performance, all fittings;  hoses, connectors & vac need to have a resistive electrically continuous chain, and the vac itself needs to be earthed too.  Do you have proper earth continuity in your power supply?

Given that the baby Rotex is, unlike the others, belt as opposed to direct/gear driven it MAY be acting as a mini Van Der Graaf generator:  a device that purposely generates electrostatic potential often exceeding a megavolt!  Certainly enough to generate a healthy spark, and perhaps energise the Nilfisk/Alto's protection circuitry.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Nilfisk/Alto/Wap vacs.  In fact my Festo SR5E vac was made by NAW & has been going strong since '95.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 03:32 AM by aloysius »
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline imaginarynumber

  • Posts: 60
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2016, 02:57 PM »
For what it is worth, Christian Oltzscher explains the importance of conductivity in more detail here

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/static-and-anti-static-hoses/

As an aside, although I am a UK customer, Christian has been instrumental in my having remained a Festool customer after I had issues with the early plug it hoses working loose. Top man- is he still with Festool USA?


Christian is now CSO for Festool (worldwide).

Peter


Thanks for the update Peter.

CSO? Chief Security Officer?

I genuinely wish him the best of luck.

A few years back, had it not been for his input/feedback (via email) I might not be an on going Festool customer.

Offline imaginarynumber

  • Posts: 60
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2016, 03:02 PM »
My Festool CT22 was made by Nilfisk and when I stuffed up the motor I saved 40% by purchasing the Nilfisk branded motor rather than buying the one in a Festool box.

The CT22 was actually a rebranded Kranzle vac. But Kranzle probably did not make the motor but ordered one from a specialised manufacturer like Nilfisk-Alto.

I had assumed that my Midi is made for Festool by Nilfisk, am I wrong?

The Midi and all other current Festool vacs are made by Festool themselves, they set up a special venture that falls under Festool's mother company, the TTS umbrella. But again, they'll probably order their motors somewhere else.

Not sure why there is so much animosity towards Nilfisk.

I'm not sure either, because there is none. Maybe not make stuff up.

Thanks for correcting me re the CT22, I guess that I had (incorrectly) assumed that it was Nilfisk given that they/WAP made the previous generations of festtol dust extractors.


Offline imaginarynumber

  • Posts: 60
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2016, 03:09 PM »
Not sure why there is so much animosity towards Nilfisk.

My Festool CT22 was made by Nilfisk and when I stuffed up the motor I saved 40% by purchasing the Nilfisk branded motor rather than buying the one in a Festool box.

Regarding antiistatic hoses... other than colour (and price), can anyone spot the difference between the Nilfisk hose on this link and the Festool branded one?

https://vacuumdoctor.com.au/products/nilfisk-alto-anti-static-hose-for-connection-to-power-tools

I had assumed that my Midi is made for Festool by Nilfisk, am I wrong?


I'm sure the motors are common to many Kraut mfr's, but Festo's vacs have been made by Kraenzle for many years.  Part of their greater fourth reich.  The CT22 is a model Ventos 25 in the Kraenzle stable.  I've also heard of ppl using "Makita" vac motors in their CT vacs!

To achieve full a/s performance, all fittings;  hoses, connectors & vac need to have a resistive electrically continuous chain, and the vac itself needs to be earthed too.  Do you have proper earth continuity in your power supply?

Given that the baby Rotex is, unlike the others, belt as opposed to direct/gear driven it MAY be acting as a mini Van Der Graaf generator:  a device that purposely generates electrostatic potential often exceeding a megavolt!  Certainly enough to generate a healthy spark, and perhaps energise the Nilfisk/Alto's protection circuitry.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Nilfisk/Alto/Wap vacs.  In fact my Festo SR5E vac was made by NAW & has been going strong since '95.

Thanks for the feedback aloysius

I am not the OP and thus don't have the issue with a build up of static electricity. That said, the 90mm  has been on my wish list for a while.

Ta

Online Gregor

  • Posts: 765
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 08:22 AM »
I am not the OP and thus don't have the issue with a build up of static electricity. That said, the 90mm  has been on my wish list for a while.
I can report after several cumulative days of useage for different projects that I'm completely unshocked by it and glad to have moved this little machine from the wish list to my shop

Offline mo siopa

  • Posts: 80
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 12:58 AM »
If I recall correctly, there were issues with the original Dust Deputies mounted to Festool CTs'.  Static was building up and frying their motors.  they quit making the DD for Festool- shortly before I tried to buy one- until they figured out how to address the static issue.

Also, insurance companies and building codes require spark arrestors in the dust collection systems of larger wood shops.  This isn't just a ploy.  Static electricity can cause a spark powerful enough to ignite wood dust and cause an explosion- albeit unlikely in the OP's case.
Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in where a man, dressed up as a bat, gets all of my press?

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2016, 12:21 AM »
@aloysius - while the ro90 does have a belt, I believe it is used for the Delta mode only.

I think it's still gear driven in its most aggressive mode.

Online Gregor

  • Posts: 765
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2016, 07:04 AM »
@aloysius - while the ro90 does have a belt, I believe it is used for the Delta mode only.

I think it's still gear driven in its most aggressive mode.
The belt connects the motor (located in the back portion) to the mechanic in the front (at least according to the drawings in the EKAT).

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2135
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2016, 09:49 AM »
@aloysius - while the ro90 does have a belt, I believe it is used for the Delta mode only.

I think it's still gear driven in its most aggressive mode.
  I thought the sander was belt driven regardless of what mode it's in since the motor in the rear is the prime mover/power unit and the 'gear box' up front just changes your sanding mode as you see fit.
 I see we moved this discussion over to Ask Festool........ [smile]
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:06 PM by leakyroof »
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: RO 90 Static electricity
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2016, 07:31 PM »
Tyler confirmed today that the whole shebang is driven by the belt.