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Author Topic: Kapex life span  (Read 241579 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3590
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #270 on: March 08, 2016, 08:54 AM »
Thanks for the update @TylerC For your birthday we should get you one of those flak jackets they give reporters when broadcasting from active combat zones.

No delibaeration on this? An update after your meeting would be nice tylerC.

We're looking into several things and should have an update soon. We're working with several departments to look at the actual number of Kapex service/repair claims, the nature of those claims, how that compares with the actual number of Kapexes that are in the market, and how that percentage compares to Festool and industry standards. (FWIW, we constantly track and monitor the repair percentages for each tool, but -- due to concerns brought up here -- we're going a bit more in-depth.)

We want to be thorough and considerate when looking into this, and I'm hoping to have more to share later today. Thanks for your patience.
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Offline tomscf

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #271 on: March 08, 2016, 09:36 AM »
I figured I'd weigh in on the conversation as I'm off work today and have had enough time to go through the pages of this thread.

I fit a lot of £20-30k kitchens and most of my tools are Festool and the ones that aren't will probably be replaced with their equivalent as and when I can afford to. This is not necessarily because I believe Festool to be so vastly superior to other brands but because everything sits together so well and the accuracy is something that matters to both me and my customers and I do find them to be spot on.

I use my cxs for just about everything because it's powerful enough for what I need it for and when I'm driving tiny little screws into stuff it's probably the truest running and most accurate drill I've ever owned (and I've owned a few!).

Similarly I use my Kapex for plinths/kick panels, cornice and light pelmet because It's powerful enough to do it and I can cut anything with virtually no tear out and know that it's going to fit together with a nearly invisible joint. The lasers are spot on (or at least they were until, in some moment of madness I decided to lubricate the blade using WD40 while the blade was running and made them all blurry!...I'll sort it out at some point).

I've recently purchased the of2200 for counter tops because , although I believe I could use the of1400, I figure that probably won't be good or healthy for a smaller motor and I'd rather not put that kind of strain on my incredibly expensive tools.

Back when I fitted shops, I used any old tool I could get as long as it could withstand abuse. I don't know how many tools I got through - especially drills. I was on the Makita impact drivers all day long snapping bits and screws tearing things up with an old DeWalt chop saw. They all did what I needed them to do and probably did withstand more abuse than my Festools ever would but the work wasn't pretty...it didn't need to be.

Now when I'm working, there's hardly any noise but for BBC radio 4 talking to me while I carefully manoeuvre units into place and line everything up. Now and again, usually towards the end of the job, the Kapex and the TS55 come out and instead of customers wincing and wondering if I know what the heck I'm doing, they are impressed by how little dust there is and want to know everything about my tools. It just makes the whole experience a lot nicer for everyone.

I assure you that all that was just preamble really. There's been so much ranting in this thread that I figure maybe it'd make a change to cool off a bit and read some of what I'm about as I haven't posted on here much.

This whole thread seems to have gone down a road that borders on incitement to riot. I think it very dangerous for so many to hop on a band wagon of scaremongering when only a very small percentage of people appear to have had issues with their Kapex.
The facts as I see them are that of all the people posting here, only 7 have had any failures of their saw. 2 of those were within their warranty period and to date don't appear to have failed again(?).
One failed after 8 years and was "used for everything" within that time.
The rest could well be justified in being frustrated as they appear to have failed just outside of the warranty period.
But even here, we don't know the facts completely. We don't know how these saws were treated and one person at least had already cracked the housing through an unfortunate error. Could other faults have arisen through error of another sort?

I would say here that clearly there are "tales" from friends of friends or other companies people have heard from or dealers but this is all basically heresay and as no one involved directly in those cases is here to put forward their case, I would dismiss them again due to lack of facts.

Most of the posts here that have been made from people who ACTUALLY OWN a Kapex have been very positive. The person who started the post and in spite of being given a bit of a runaround has gone and bought another one!

Those that are here who don't own one and have been scared away by a few horror stories, firstly - You have no real justification in "demanding and answer from a Festool representative" as you are not the ones with a faulty tool. And Secondly, don't be so quick to judge a machine you don't own. The majority of us seem to be very happy as it does what we need it to do and we aren't prepared to make a compromise when it comes to the benefits of this particular saw over some others. Whether that be weight, accuracy, kudos or whatever.

And those who are reading who don't comment but who remain sceptical, I'd say you need to assess your needs. If you can live with a saw that costs half as much but weighs twice as much, go for it! Why wouldn't you?! Providing it's well set up and has a sharp blade in it, you'd be a fool to think that a Kapex would be so significantly better than anything else in one particular area. For me, and many others I imagine, it's more about it being slightly better in the areas that matter more to us.
So don't pay too much attention to the nay-sayers or harbingers of doom but similarly don't get bowled along by the brand. Just make sure that whatever you decide, that your decision is ONLY based on facts.

We have no numbers on Kapex's sold vs Kapex's broken and then no further information on ones fixed within and outside of warranty period and even less information about specifics of each individual case of those that have encountered problems.

I think that we see it as being all too easy to want to rally the troops and get bowled along by a feeling of hatred and disgust against something. With the World in the turmoil as it is, maybe we're all feeling like we want everything to run smoothly with no hiccups or isolated incidents but sadly that's just not the way it is.

I would just choose to trust that my saw will be fine for years to come. Will I be gutted if it blows up outside its warranty period, of course. But would I also be gutted if something fell on my hand in work and broke my knuckle? Definitely. And given the trades that most people here are in, I'd say that a work related accident is far more statistically likely...in fact, it's the reason I'm off work today and why I was off yesterday so it's already cost me hundreds of ££!
But I'll go back to work once I'm fixed, the same as I'd buy another Kapex if it blew up. You take your chances and you hope for the best.

Keep smiling  [smile] [smile] [big grin]

Offline Dave Reinhold

  • Posts: 529
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #272 on: March 08, 2016, 12:35 PM »
I just shipped out my kapex this morning, $110 for shipping!!!  Hopefully the repair cost isn't too bad. It stinks that the motor went on my kapex. I know a ton of guys with old hitachi and dealt saws that are well over 10yrs old with no issues. This is the 3rd time my kapex has been in for service, this is the first time out of warranty and with motor issues. I will keep everyone updated once I hear what's wrong with my kapex and the cost of repairs.

Dave
check out www.youtube.com/user/DaveReinholdTV for new tool demos every week

Offline TylerC

  • Festool USA Employee
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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #273 on: March 08, 2016, 03:07 PM »
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences and concerns.

Based on the concerns mentioned in this thread, we’ve done some research, and this is what we have found. In the U.S, the Kapex does have a somewhat higher repair rate than the rest of our tools. However, it is still a very low percentage, based on the number of tools in service.  We attribute this slightly higher than average repair rate to the relative complexity of the tool, rather than any inherent design flaw or other issue. 

The anecdotal claims of issues mentioned on the FOG simply do not, in our opinion, create a reason to think that there is a widespread problem.  We are confident in the overall quality and performance of the Kapex, and believe that you should be as well.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #274 on: March 08, 2016, 03:30 PM »
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences and concerns.

Based on the concerns mentioned in this thread, we’ve done some research, and this is what we have found. In the U.S, the Kapex does have a somewhat higher repair rate than the rest of our tools. However, it is still a very low percentage, based on the number of tools in service.  We attribute this slightly higher than average repair rate to the relative complexity of the tool, rather than any inherent design flaw or other issue. 

The anecdotal claims of issues mentioned on the FOG simply do not, in our opinion, create a reason to think that there is a widespread problem.  We are confident in the overall quality and performance of the Kapex, and believe that you should be as well.

What is the main source/cause of these repairs that are higher than average (by your own admission)? If it's primarily the motor, then I don't really understand how the complexity of the tool has any bearing on that.

I don't want to cause more arguments, but your assurances are meaningless without more detailed information to back it up. What does "somewhat higher" mean in numbers?

So, for example:

If 5% of all quadrive PDC drills got repaired within 10 years of manufacture due to the clutch, gearbox, chuck, motor, trigger, battery, etc. across the board, with each cause being evenly distributed, that's one statistic.

Now let's say 8% of Kapex's get repaired (i.e. somewhat higher) but of that 8%, 90% of repairs were down to the motor, the headline of the Kapex repairs being somewhat higher but due to overall complexity doesn't tell a fraction of the story.

It's only a 3% difference overall, but it's a huge difference when you drill down into the data.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:34 PM by bobfog »

Offline Dave Reinhold

  • Posts: 529
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #275 on: March 08, 2016, 03:31 PM »
All I can say is my saw should have lasted longer then it has lasted.  I take care of my tools, always wait for the motor to come to full speed before cutting and 90% of the time plug the ct vac directly into an outlet. I know the other guys I work with have different brand miter saws that they had before I got my kapex and those saws are still working. The other brand saws are mainly used for framing and azek work while my kapex is babied and used indoors. I'm interested to see how Festool works with me on the repair of my kapex. The expensive shipping rate did make me cry a little this morning!!! 

Dave
check out www.youtube.com/user/DaveReinholdTV for new tool demos every week

Offline Festoolfootstool

  • Posts: 2076
  • The trouble with Bob is its all about Bob
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #276 on: March 08, 2016, 03:36 PM »
If festool sold paint it would probably be whitewash
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #277 on: March 08, 2016, 03:47 PM »
@tomscf - Noice mate. Well done.

Offline TylerC

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #278 on: March 08, 2016, 04:06 PM »
I don't want to cause more arguments, but your assurances are meaningless without more detailed information to back it up. What does "somewhat higher" mean in numbers?

To be blunt, we're not going to be publicly releasing this kind of data. It's not because we have anything to hide. It's because that's not how this is done.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #279 on: March 08, 2016, 04:13 PM »
I don't want to cause more arguments, but your assurances are meaningless without more detailed information to back it up. What does "somewhat higher" mean in numbers?


>
[wink]

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #280 on: March 08, 2016, 04:24 PM »
I don't want to cause more arguments, but your assurances are meaningless without more detailed information to back it up. What does "somewhat higher" mean in numbers?

To be blunt, we're not going to be publicly releasing this kind of data. It's not because we have anything to hide. It's because that's not how this is done.

I appreciate and fully expected that. It was rhetorical. But as per my example, headline statements do nothing to quell the problem.

Human nature is such that people naturally want to like and feel good about the things they spend their money on. Internet forums such as this breed "fanboy" cultures, yet despite these two things in Festool's favour, the Kapex seems to get more widespread criticism than any other tool, save for maybe the Carvex. So you have to realise that the idiom that there's no smoke without fire, is hard to ignore with regards to this tool.

I'm not one to rubbish Festool unnecessarily, but nor am I one to blindly drink the Kool-Aid. I hope that in a few years there is a new or revised Kapex introduced with a new motor (along with I suspect some other minor changes to give Festool plausible deniability that the motor was faulty and needed redesigning) so I can buy one. But for now I can't allow myself to part with that much cash with all uncertainty about it's reliability, so for now a combination of my heavy old Bosch slider and small Makita will have to do.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 04:35 PM by bobfog »

Offline Jak147

  • Posts: 113
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #281 on: March 08, 2016, 04:38 PM »
@tomscf well said sir.

Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3303
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #282 on: March 08, 2016, 05:19 PM »
no body expects festool to release the stats.

but from my perspective any kapexs failing prematurely is a definetly a huge problem.
I would expect every one of my tools ( I only buy good tools) to last 10 years minium
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 860
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #283 on: March 08, 2016, 05:59 PM »
If Festool stands behind the Kapex why not a longer warranty?  A $1500 miter saw is expensive.   I have owned a Dewalt for 8 or 9 years and it gets used hard every day.  I keep a quality blade on it and it still cuts true.  I paid around $350 for it and have been impressed with its life span.

In my opinion it's hard to evaluate life span/the repair issues with the Kapex being that users vary.  I would guess that the majority of the users are not using the saw every day, all day long. 

Offline T. Ernsberger

  • Posts: 860
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #284 on: March 08, 2016, 06:02 PM »
All I can say is my saw should have lasted longer then it has lasted.  I take care of my tools, always wait for the motor to come to full speed before cutting and 90% of the time plug the ct vac directly into an outlet. I know the other guys I work with have different brand miter saws that they had before I got my kapex and those saws are still working. The other brand saws are mainly used for framing and azek work while my kapex is babied and used indoors. I'm interested to see how Festool works with me on the repair of my kapex. The expensive shipping rate did make me cry a little this morning!!! 

Dave

Does this mean your next tool review is a Bosch Hinge Saw.  :)

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #285 on: March 08, 2016, 06:08 PM »
What im getting from this is that Festool as a company feels it is acceptable to have the motor burn out on some of these saws within 4 years. By your statement that nothing is going to be done you are effectively stating that you are ok with this.

I can understand that the % may not be high enough to warrant a recall or precautionary measures. I'd also be ashamed of myself if something i produced died right outside of the warranty time.  You sell the most expensive miter saw on the market by a wide margin and now you have MULTIPLE customers coming to you saying their motors have all died. Your response is that its not statistically significant enough to do anything? You've lost me as a customer right there, you don't back your product and I'll exercise my right to not buy from you again.


Offline jbasen

  • Posts: 724
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #286 on: March 08, 2016, 06:13 PM »
If Festool stands behind the Kapex why not a longer warranty?  A $1500 miter saw is expensive.   I have owned a Dewalt for 8 or 9 years and it gets used hard every day.  I keep a quality blade on it and it still cuts true.  I paid around $350 for it and have been impressed with its life span.

In my opinion it's hard to evaluate life span/the repair issues with the Kapex being that users vary.  I would guess that the majority of the users are not using the saw every day, all day long.

I was thinking the exact same thing.  If there really isn't an issue with the motors on the Kapex Festool could have turned this entire discussion around by saying some thing like "our statistics show that there isn't an issue with this tool  However, perception is sometimes more important than reality so to show that we stand behind the tool we are going to extend the warranty on just the motor by an additional 3 years".    If there really isn't an issue with the motor than this would cost them very little; probably less than the loss in sales of the Kapex from this thread.

In addition, while I would not expect Festool to release specific details about their repair histories they could have said we compared motor failures of the Kapex to the closest tool we manufacture, track saws, and there were only x% more (or even less) Kapex motor failures than failures of motors on our track saws.  This is why we don't see that there is an issue with the motor on the Kapex. 

Finally, lets be honest, this wouldn't be nearly as big an issue if the replacement motor for the Kapex was $100-$200.  The fact that the cost of a replacement motor will buy you a brand new saw from another manufacturer is a significant part of the problem

My $.02

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4076
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #287 on: March 08, 2016, 06:16 PM »
10 pages of grown men crying?

If mine burns up BFD, I will have it fixed.  I have more important stuff to do then spend my time speculating on a forum about this.


Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 582
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #288 on: March 08, 2016, 06:45 PM »
Im not speculating, my motor burned up. Soild addition to the conversation though.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #289 on: March 08, 2016, 06:48 PM »
10 pages of grown men crying?

If mine burns up BFD, I will have it fixed.  I have more important stuff to do then spend my time speculating on a forum about this.

Like posting on a forum, to let us know that you have more important things to do than speculate about it, but apparently not more important than letting us know that you don't have time to speculate about it?

Offline Brandon

  • Posts: 215
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #290 on: March 08, 2016, 07:02 PM »
I had posted on a similar thread a couple years ago but mine burned up in less than a year as well. Festool obviously repaired it but disappointing none the less. I've had no issues with it since, probably about 2 years but I would certainly not buy another. Of all the tools I own, which is a lot, I've never had a motor burn out. Minus a router trim motor on my Holzher edgebander and that's fairly common.
I think the failure rate on the Kapex, regardless of how small a percentile they claim, is unacceptable given the cost and quality we expect from Festool

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 429
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #291 on: March 08, 2016, 07:59 PM »
I think that the Festool response to the failure rate is the important issue. If Festool just takes the attitude that the rare failure is something the customer just has to deal with, then I would be very leery about buying an expensive, complex piece of Festool machinery.

As I have said before, I think that Festool should replace the units with failing motors. If they cannot determine what the problem is and correct it, then they should give an extended warranty to the motors.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #292 on: March 08, 2016, 08:44 PM »
I bought an electric range with a whole bunch of features.  I paid about $1600 USD.  I could have bought a range that would cook my food perfectly fine for $700.  Both had a 1 year warranty.  I then bought an extended warranty AT EXTRA COST to give me piece of mind.  Ranges have a lifespan and might need repairs before the end of their lifespan.

Oh, sorry.  I went off topic and we were talking about the Kapex here.

Peter

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 189
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #293 on: March 08, 2016, 08:52 PM »
So bringing Peter's comments back on topic, what about an extended warranty...

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 189
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #294 on: March 08, 2016, 08:53 PM »
And yes I realized the humor in Peter's comments.

Offline Saskataper

  • Posts: 278
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #295 on: March 08, 2016, 09:20 PM »
Ok this just ticks me off and I call B.S. Friend of mine just shipped theirs out for repair and it wasn't even 2 years old. Then talking to contractors on site about it yesterday say yeah the one other guy they know with a kapex had to send it back a couple times for new motors. On top of that my dealer has mentioned having to send back saws for that reason.
Now considering the kapex is a pretty rare beast in these parts that is a pretty high failure rate.
I was really hoping to hear that festool would extend the warranty on the saw to give owners and prospective buyers some peace of mind.
Luckily for me the price of it has gone up so much in the past three years I should be able to sell it for what I paid for it.
I bought this saw for the occasional custom job I do, justifying the cost for the most part on the fact that it should be a one time purchase and the quality should pay for itself over the years.

Offline Dave Reinhold

  • Posts: 529
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #296 on: March 08, 2016, 09:28 PM »

[/quote]

Does this mean your next tool review is a Bosch Hinge Saw.  :)
[/quote]

I would like to try the Bosch saw but it's huge and dust collection is poor. I would strongly consider one for a shop environment.
check out www.youtube.com/user/DaveReinholdTV for new tool demos every week

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #297 on: March 08, 2016, 09:29 PM »
Statistics can be used to tell any story if you're the one holding them and drawing the conclusions. The reality is we have a response from Festool and it effective says "all is good and we're not making any changes to the KAPEX or to the KAPEX warranty".

We now trust or distrust the response.

I'm going to choose "trust" as I honestly don't have a personal issue with any of my Festools and they're not heavy use by me either.


Offline glass1

  • Posts: 420
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #298 on: March 08, 2016, 09:39 PM »
Let's takes Warner's advice. Time to take action and not speculate. Seems many motor failures on this forum plus many know others with motor failures.  Is it time for legal action.  Maybe a forced recall. I am not sure but it is an option. Maybe it's time for festool to offer a 10 year warranty on the motor.  Cars come with 36000 bumber to bumber with 100000 on engine and powertrain. Festool could do the same with 3 year bumber to bumber and 10 years on the motor. If there are truly few motor failures like festool says than it costs them little plus comes a marketing plus for sales, Festool Kapex the only saw on the market guaranteed against motor failure for 10 years!

Offline andy5405

  • Posts: 401
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #299 on: March 09, 2016, 02:12 AM »
It's an interesting thread on so many levels. It would certainly stop me from buying a Kapex but I was already in the highly unlikely category anyway.

It does seem that the motor on the Kapex isn't that great but without proper stats from the users or manufacturer it is hard to properly assess that. What does interest me is the mob mentality. I'm wondering whether some people are expecting Festool to put one of their own employees in stocks so disgruntled owners can throw rotten fruit and veg at them?

That said there does seem to be a cause for concern here and FOG is obviously a double edged sword for Festool at times like this. They are more than happy for users to talk about the love story between themselves and their tools. I'm sure any other manufacturer would easily consider a 7 figure sum for a resource like FOG. It should never be forgotten by users that Festool started the love story with their great tools but by the same token Festool should never forget that they would be far worse off without the millions of positive words of solid gold advertising that the FOG community creates. True love never runs smooth and occasionally the community will be demanding, sometimes it will be justified and sometimes it won't. In both cases I would expect a better response than the one Festool have provided so far.

Like all great love stories, you inevitably get to the bit where you have the conversation "you're not the person I married, I'm leaving you for a Makita chopsaw". Festool probably have changed on the back of the price fixing debacle. They set the margins back then but also determined the quality. We are paying lower prices now but maybe we are determining the quality by doing so. We maybe have a choice to make if we want the Festool we fell in love with. Would this motor issue have been resolved under the old regime? Is it considered an acceptable failure rate nowadays under the new regime? If you look at the prices of a lot of Festool gear nowadays we are not really paying that much of a premium if you look at similar offerings from the other manufacturers. Sometimes Festool can even be the cheaper option. What should we realistically expect?

I think it might be folly to consider Festool as the premium brand it once was. It is still a premium brand but the emphasis might be shifting towards the volume market. They had their pants round their ankles with the TS55 release and were forced to act. You might just have to put up with the "Kapex issues" and expect mass market responses.

All the above is rampant speculation but might be useful food for thought. A bean counter in an ivory tower somewhere in Germany will have all the answers. That bean counter might laugh derisively at every single one of my words but I'm right because I'm the customer!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:46 AM by andy5405 »