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Author Topic: Kapex life span  (Read 246697 times)

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Offline Steve-Rice

  • Posts: 291
Kapex life span
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2016, 01:15 PM »
I find this entire thread extremely disheartening.  Although I am not a professional builder, I built a 4800 square foot house, two large storage sheds, several large decks and dozens of furniture pieces using the same DeWalt tools which I've had for almost 20 years.  The only problem I ever had with any of those tools was the pad on my DeWalt variable speed ROS had to be replaced.  All are still in excellent working condition.

After reading about Festool and watching numerous promotional and testimonial videos, I became convinced that Festool manufactured exacting tools, built for the demanding rigors of a professional environment. So when I decided to purchase a track saw, I thought I'd give Festool a try.  I was pleased with the performance of my TS55 REQ track saw and that tool was subsequently followed by a DF500 Domino, a Carvex, an ETS EC 150/3 sander and a CT26.  I am happy to say I have been quite satisfied with the performance of all my Festool tools.  However, I would expect that each of these tools last AT LEAST 10 full years, if not double that.  I will be extremely ticked if any of these tools fails within a few years.  To me, that's just bullsh*t.  I don't think it's the least bit unrealistic to expect a tool that costs two or three times that of a competitor tool to last two or three times longer than that competitor's tool. Any premature failure would definitely turn me off to the brand.

Although I still consider myself a very happy Festool owner, after reading this and other threads regarding the Kapex, there is no way I will consider purchasing one.  My 20 year old DeWalt compound miter saw still works like new and I'm perfectly happy sticking with it.

It would be interesting if there were some consumer agency that gathered statistics on these premature failures.  I'd hope to be reassured that these failures are just a statistical anomaly which occurs in any manufacturing environment and that the vast majority of Festool tools do stand the test of time, but obviously, such is not the case.  Perhaps someone should set up a survey to try and determine the satisfied vs. unsatisfied Kapex/Festool owners...

In any event, it looks like I'll be crossing my fingers and involuntarily tightening my sphincter every time I push the little green "on" button...   

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Offline jimbo51

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Kapex life span
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2016, 02:43 PM »
I think Festool should be replacing these failing machines with reconditioned returns and then doing an exacting teardown and analysis of what went wrong in the machines that failed.

For tools like the Kapex, Festool needs to maintain a reputation of top quality and reliability. Premature failures should be seen as totally unacceptable.

 

Offline Harvey

  • Posts: 135
Kapex life span
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2016, 03:35 PM »
The Kapex dates roughly to 2007. After nine years I think Festool has a good handle on it's weak points are.
Just a duffer

Offline GhostFist

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Kapex life span
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2016, 04:39 PM »
Good point. It kinda leads me to other thoughts. When a product is first released, it is usuallythis first sku that is most expensive to produce and more prone to faults. As years pass, bugs are worked out, manufacturing improves, and usually you can buy a better all around model for less than the original sku. Later on, a completely new version is built to keep up with competing tech. That's how it's done in the tech world at least, why not here?

Offline Steve-Rice

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Kapex life span
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2016, 06:49 PM »
I agree with Jimbo51 "Premature failures should be seen as totally unacceptable."

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Kapex life span
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2016, 07:20 PM »
I wont buy one until they have a longer warranty.  It's scary to me to buy a saw that is prone to problems. I have a Dewalt dual bevel that I have had for 10 years and it still cuts great.  For me 10 years for $350 I got my money's worth.  A longer warranty in my eyes will prove that they are serious that there saw has been fixed and there is no issues.  The saw cost more than double,  so why not double the warranty? 

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 430
Kapex life span
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2016, 08:23 PM »
I use the kapex everyday. I have been one the hardest critics of it.  It has grown on me. I used to hate lasers but I have come to see them and enjoy their use on the kapex. The larger arbor spins the blade truer than the other saws. It's compactness, weight,dust collection, and quietness do not make cuts better but make my life better. I bought it again and it is apart of my daily work flow. My local festool dealer says he has had only one motor failure. The owner admitted to pushing the saw to the limit in terms of blade sharpness. I think festool should introduce a 40 tooth low cost fast cutting blade for knock around work. I do feel the saw needs to be run with a sharp blade. I have many wish lists on the kapex but one stands out. Please add and make it an add on to the current kapex. A lock for the detente override. With the stiff but consistent turntable it lends itself to the bump method. Hold board with one hand - engage override - bump handle. Once you figure out a bump it becomes intuitive.

Offline jmbfestool

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Kapex life span
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2016, 03:12 AM »
I use the kapex everyday. I have been one the hardest critics of it.  It has grown on me. I used to hate lasers but I have come to see them and enjoy their use on the kapex. The larger arbor spins the blade truer than the other saws. It's compactness, weight,dust collection, and quietness do not make cuts better but make my life better. I bought it again and it is apart of my daily work flow. My local festool dealer says he has had only one motor failure. The owner admitted to pushing the saw to the limit in terms of blade sharpness. I think festool should introduce a 40 tooth low cost fast cutting blade for knock around work. I do feel the saw needs to be run with a sharp blade. I have many wish lists on the kapex but one stands out. Please add and make it an add on to the current kapex. A lock for the detente override. With the stiff but consistent turntable it lends itself to the bump method. Hold board with one hand - engage override - bump handle. Once you figure out a bump it becomes intuitive.


Strange your dealer has only had one motor failure.

Dealers ive spoken to have said that if there is a problem with a kapex its pretty much always the motor that has failed and that the 110v version is alot more prone to it than the 240v. Mine is 240v.  So i say good luck to 110v owners.

Mine has failed twice.....
A dealer has told me he has fixed a couple himself.....
I struggle to believe your dealer has only had one failure?!


 
Quote
"The owner admitted to pushing the saw to the limit in terms of blade sharpness.  I think festool should introduce a 40 tooth low cost fast cutting blade for knock around work. I do feel the saw needs to be run with a sharp blade"

So not only has your dealer only had one failure your suggesting it was the kapex owners fault. You do know dealers say little white lies?

You are suggesting that people like me are pushing the saw to hard.  You are just making up excusses for festool. 

As if like NO one every uses a blunt blade on any other brand chop saw.  As if no one pushing the other branded tools to their limit.

I dont know the figures but common sense tells me a much higher percentage  of people who have bought a kapex will be using sharp blades more than any other branded tool. Also a much higher percentage of people who own a kapex wont push it as hard as any other brand.
This is because these people have spent alot of money and these people tend to have the mentality to better look after their tools. 

 I am not suggesting only festool owners look after their tools. I am saying the precentage is more likely to be higher with a kapex owner because of the cost and the reason why the person decided to buy the kapex in the first place.

When i had my  makita.  I had a new blade and i used it till it couldnt cut any more.  It would normally be cutting MDF. Then I would be needing to cut oak and find my blade cant cut it but I didnt have another blade. So i carried on struggeling. Then got another blade when i was in town.

When i bought a kapex i was amazed how smooth it cut! Like butter!  After a while when the blade dulled. I missed the super smooth cutting. So i went and bought a couple of blades.  So i could always have a sharp blade on me for when i needed it. i did same with my TS55 i have about 5 blades for it.


 
Oh forgot the Makita i still have I think is 12years old. Still going.  It always has a blunt blade because my dad uses it to cut pallets up.  Mainly american pallets which are made of hard wood. Not like our european pallets soft wood.

 Companies dont like the american pallets because they weigh more and are a odd size to our european pallets so they skip them.


« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 03:18 AM by jmbfestool »
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Online travisj

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Kapex life span
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2016, 09:47 AM »
I asked my dealer and they haven't had any failures.

Offline GhostFist

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Kapex life span
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2016, 10:28 AM »
First, jmb has been posting his projects on here for years, I'm pretty confident he knows what the heck he's doing. Besides the point however. when you design a product, you design it to be used and consider faults with reason. If someone is using their kapex as a type of mallet to drive stakes, I would expect it to stop cutting wood properly, if at all. However, if you're cutting wood, dull blade or not I would expect better performance for the ticket price as opposed to motor disintegration.

The ts saws will not cut if the motor is overloaded. Their drills will not drill if there is an overload. The tech is available and in some ways pioneered by festool.  These motors should not fail

Offline Brice Burrell

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Kapex life span
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2016, 11:09 AM »
I asked my dealer and they haven't had any failures.

Dealers aren't necessarily the first point of service here in N. America, so they may not know if any of their customers had failures.
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Online travisj

  • Posts: 189
Kapex life span
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2016, 11:27 AM »
I asked my dealer and they haven't had any failures.

Dealers aren't necessarily the first point of service here in N. America, so they may not know if any of their customers had failures.

I wrote that in haste, I apologize.  I could have been more clear.  My dealer did not know of any failures with the armature or burning up the motors.  He did have some that were abused or had other issues.  They do a lot of service work on Porter Cable and Bosch tools, but obviously they do not repair Festool.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Kapex life span
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2016, 11:28 AM »
First, jmb has been posting his projects on here for years, I'm pretty confident he knows what the heck he's doing. Besides the point however. when you design a product, you design it to be used and consider faults with reason. If someone is using their kapex as a type of mallet to drive stakes, I would expect it to stop cutting wood properly, if at all. However, if you're cutting wood, dull blade or not I would expect better performance for the ticket price as opposed to motor disintegration.

The ts saws will not cut if the motor is overloaded. Their drills will not drill if there is an overload. The tech is available and in some ways pioneered by festool.  These motors should not fail

I'd guess Festool designed the Kapex with the most powerful motor they could and still have it work when plugged into their vacs.  I can't help but wonder if this compromise leaves the Kapex under powered for hard professional use.  So why not have the same overload protection that the drills and other tools have?  Well, maybe because the saw would shutdown far too often in normal use.... This is all speculation on my part.       
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 03:34 PM by Brice Burrell »
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Offline Nigel

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Kapex life span
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2016, 12:39 PM »
I have had a cheap an cheerful scms for years with the same blade - never been sharpened, just for rough cutting because it's not very accurate. I have cut loads of Oak and even old chestnut planks for firewood and it still goes the same but hellish noisy. I wanted to upgrade to a Kapex but I'm glad I didn't now and if I had I would of put a nice blade and kept it sharp! It's a lot to shell out for limited durabilty.

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Kapex life span
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2016, 02:53 PM »
Side note, re vacs. The starmix or rebranded metabo has a dial to set the amperage of the tool you're plugging into it. Nice idea

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Kapex life span
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2016, 03:01 PM »
...
I'd guess Festool designed the Kapex with the more powerful motor they could and still have it work when plugged into their vacs.
...

All I ever hear is "it is a system".

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 5698
Kapex life span
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2016, 03:35 PM »
Side note, re vacs. The starmix or rebranded metabo has a dial to set the amperage of the tool you're plugging into it. Nice idea

What is the benefit?

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Kapex life span
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2016, 03:43 PM »
Just throwing it out there.

Im not sure because i havent found the reciept yet. Ill have a look tomorrow.

I think the kapex is 6years old.  The motor failed just under 4 years i think and has now failed again.

If i add the cost of the kapex alone and repair
The kapex has cost me to date  £200 a year

If i decided to get it repaired again (which i am not going to)
Then it will have cost me to date £250 a year roughly.
It seems life expetancy is average 3years
So it will cost me £180 a year at best to own a kapex.

Seen as i am deciding to buy a different brand chop saw.
The UG-stand and arms will become obsolete which adds to the total cost loss.

The kapex to this day has cost me
£283 a year for 6 years.

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Offline harry_

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Kapex life span
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2016, 05:08 PM »
I have a Bosch 4412 SCMS that I have owned for at least a decade. I have had various plastic parts break on it over the years but nothing that ever kept it from performing. Even had it fall out of my truck and stayed true. Very much to my grateful surprise!

I'v had the Kapex on my list for years now and like many previous in this thread an others, I am left a little weary of that purchase.
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline GhostFist

  • Posts: 1556
Kapex life span
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2016, 06:18 PM »
Side note, re vacs. The starmix or rebranded metabo has a dial to set the amperage of the tool you're plugging into it. Nice idea

What is the benefit?
To prevent circuit overload

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 430
Kapex life span
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2016, 08:29 PM »
jmb.... I have known the dealer for twenty years. He is a personal friend. Said user is the one who admitted to using dull blades. Maybe it only lasts a few years. I sure hope not. I have hope festool extends the warranty on the motor. It should last 10 years. I feel your pain but none of the other new saws float my boat for various reasons.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Kapex life span
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2016, 09:17 PM »
jmb.... I have known the dealer for twenty years. He is a personal friend. Said user is the one who admitted to using dull blades. Maybe it only lasts a few years. I sure hope not. I have hope festool extends the warranty on the motor. It should last 10 years. I feel your pain but none of the other new saws float my boat for various reasons.


I agree.  All other saws dont float my boat either.

They are to heavy, to big, poor dust extraction, slide to the rear etc

I love the kapex and i really would love to buy another one but i just cant afford nor justify a tool with a 3-4year life span. When others can easily last 6-7years +

Had it lasted the 6 years i would be down the shop now buying another one... Maybe even two
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Offline harry_

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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2016, 12:43 AM »
jmb.... I have known the dealer for twenty years. He is a personal friend. Said user is the one who admitted to using dull blades. Maybe it only lasts a few years. I sure hope not. I have hope festool extends the warranty on the motor. It should last 10 years. I feel your pain but none of the other new saws float my boat for various reasons.


I agree.  All other saws dont float my boat either.

They are to heavy, to big, poor dust extraction, slide to the rear etc

I love the kapex and i really would love to buy another one but i just cant afford nor justify a tool with a 3-4year life span. When others can easily last 6-7years +

Had it lasted the 6 years i would be down the shop now buying another one... Maybe even two

But what were your gains in production in the time that you did have it?
Disclaimer: This post is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental. Void where prohibited. Some assembly required. Batteries not included. Contents may settle during shipment. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. This is not an offer to sell securities. May be too intense for some viewers. No user-serviceable parts inside. Subject to change without notice. One size fits all (very poorly).

Offline Kev

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Kapex life span
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2016, 03:15 AM »
Any appliance insurance companies over there that'd offer a +5 years ?

Offline TomE

  • Posts: 131
Kapex life span
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2016, 08:30 AM »
Common practice in the US to offer extended warranties on most anything, for a fee of course.

I have extended warranties on my new kitchen appliances primarily because the 'not so old' appliances they replaced failed to the point where repair was almost as costly as new replacement. I still have a freezer that's over 40 years old going strong.... simpler times I suspect.

 If there is a circuit board involved anywhere, you' re probably going to suffer failure there first. In turn, that failure can lead to failure of the parts under it's control.

This stuff reminds me of a situation, sometime back, when out-of-spec capacitors caused failures to a small batch of product produced by highly touted major manufacturers of computer motherboards.

Word of problems got out and users could check their systems visually for fat or leaking capacitors. I was lucky and didn't have problems but the small group of users who lost their systems were unhappy to say the least.

The problems with these motherboards showed first for overclockers, those folks tinker with their systems to gain max speed, usually for gaming. However, plain ol' business users who just want stuff to work, could suffer the same failures over time.

Nothing showed during testing and quality controls, the problems only showed after 'real world' use.

Don't know if Festool or affiliates offer extended warranty insurance, maybe they should.






 

 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 08:33 AM by TomE »

Offline Holmz

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Kapex life span
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2016, 08:35 AM »
...
I agree.  All other saws dont float my boat either.
...

For me it is either a Kapex or use an Erika.
I actually have 30M or architraving (skirting and moulding) to mitre this weekend.... so I'll use a track saw and MFT.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3659
Kapex life span
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2016, 09:22 AM »
I have had only one SCMS, a Hitachi 8-1/2".  It is probably oover 20 years old by now.  I used it often up until I came home with a ATF 55, MFT 1080 and CT 33.  From there, it was only used sporaticly.  I never had a problem with it and it does, after taking time to adjust to perfection, still cut dead on at square.  Only a hair off at 45º.  The only saws i can compare for longevity with every day use have been my Milwaukee circular saws.  The 8-1/4 was used and abused fr over 30 years before it finally caught fire. That saw was used for cutting bricks, blocks, concrete, stone and nial and concrete impregnatd lumber.  It fell off of scaffolding and off of a moving truck on the highway.  Until it caught fire, it never quit.  My 7-1/2" Milwaukee also lasted for 330 years until i gave it to my son for his work. That was about 4 or 5 years ago and as far as i know, the saw is still in use. I have not the confidence that my Festool saws will last as lonng, even tho they will never be put to the hard work and abuse that those old circular saws from way back years ago. 

I have played with several Kapex saws and I like the ease of operation.  They operate on a different set of concepts than my Hitachi SCMS.  On my Hitachi, the only piece of plastic I can find anywhere it the little tab behind the blade to capture dust.  I have not looked to see if there are any plastic parts on the Kapex.

Brice has mentioned the possibility of a problem in running the Kapex thru the CT vacs.  Is it possible a bigger vac would help to prevent such burnouts as what is discussed in this thread. Is it the fault of the CT, the Kapex or at the panel. I had a RAS for years.  Even with no dust vac hooked up, it would often tip the fuse box and i had to wait til it cooled down.  I don't think such overloading did the saw any good even tho it trip at the panel.  Maybe Festoy needs to rethink the CT where the Kapex is being run thru them.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Kapex life span
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2016, 09:45 AM »
jmb.... I have known the dealer for twenty years. He is a personal friend. Said user is the one who admitted to using dull blades. Maybe it only lasts a few years. I sure hope not. I have hope festool extends the warranty on the motor. It should last 10 years. I feel your pain but none of the other new saws float my boat for various reasons.


I agree.  All other saws dont float my boat either.

They are to heavy, to big, poor dust extraction, slide to the rear etc

I love the kapex and i really would love to buy another one but i just cant afford nor justify a tool with a 3-4year life span. When others can easily last 6-7years +

Had it lasted the 6 years i would be down the shop now buying another one... Maybe even two

But what were your gains in production in the time that you did have it?

Im not sure.

I think.... Not to sure but mates have  dewalts, makitas or metabos ,when we are on site together only one of us sets up.  Sometimes its me sometimes its them.   When im using theirs i dont feel like it has taken me any longer to do the jobs.

I think the kapex just makes my life easier and more enjoyable but i dont think it has made a big impact on productivity.
Remember the UG stand didnt exist when i bought the kapex. I bought the mft top with the arm
Extentions and it was rubbish to many parts.

The UG stand to me is what has set the kapex more apart from other chopsaws.


I went to my dealer to day.  I had a look at the bosch glide.  Its bit big and heavy but the dealer is sending me one for a week to Try out.

Hes said i should send the kapex off and see what they come back with. I might aswell because i was only got to skip it. 

Hes coming round later to pick it up from mine personally and then sending it festool. I better get the kettle on for him!

« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 09:47 AM by jmbfestool »
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Kapex life span
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2016, 09:54 AM »
...Brice has mentioned the possibility of a problem in running the Kapex thru the CT vacs.  Is it possible a bigger vac would help to prevent such burnouts as what is discussed in this thread. Is it the fault of the CT, the Kapex or at the panel. I had a RAS for years.  Even with no dust vac hooked up, it would often tip the fuse box and i had to wait til it cooled down.  I don't think such overloading did the saw any good even tho it trip at the panel.  Maybe Festoy needs to rethink the CT where the Kapex is being run thru them.
Tinker

I don't think it's the vac, it's possibly the saw that is the problem.  My guess is the motor on the Kapex is not powerful enough for hard professional use, so eventually it burns out for some users.  It has "less powerful" motor so it can be run through the vac and not trip the circuit the saw/vac is plugged into.  Not plugging the saw into a vac won't help because the saw's motor is still too underpowered for hard use. This is all speculation on my part.     
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Offline Tinker

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Kapex life span
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2016, 10:03 AM »
...Brice has mentioned the possibility of a problem in running the Kapex thru the CT vacs.  Is it possible a bigger vac would help to prevent such burnouts as what is discussed in this thread. Is it the fault of the CT, the Kapex or at the panel. I had a RAS for years.  Even with no dust vac hooked up, it would often tip the fuse box and i had to wait til it cooled down.  I don't think such overloading did the saw any good even tho it trip at the panel.  Maybe Festoy needs to rethink the CT where the Kapex is being run thru them.
Tinker

I don't think it's the vac, it's possibly the saw that is the problem.  My guess is the motor on the Kapex is not powerful enough for hard professional use, so eventually it burns out for some users.  It has "less powerful" motor so it can be run through the vac and not trip the circuit the saw/vac is plugged into.  Not plugging the saw into a vac won't help because the saw's motor is still too underpowered for hard use. This is all speculation on my part.     

Your speculation comes from more first hand experience than from my point of the question.  I seem to recall some pretty hefty beams that JMB showed in some of his projects.  Maybe in his case, he was on the right track when he mentioned loking at radial saws. 
Tinker
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