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Author Topic: Kapex life span  (Read 252717 times)

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Offline Ingebrigt

  • Posts: 26
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #300 on: March 09, 2016, 06:05 AM »
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences and concerns.

Based on the concerns mentioned in this thread, we’ve done some research, and this is what we have found. In the U.S, the Kapex does have a somewhat higher repair rate than the rest of our tools. However, it is still a very low percentage, based on the number of tools in service.  We attribute this slightly higher than average repair rate to the relative complexity of the tool, rather than any inherent design flaw or other issue. 

The anecdotal claims of issues mentioned on the FOG simply do not, in our opinion, create a reason to think that there is a widespread problem.  We are confident in the overall quality and performance of the Kapex, and believe that you should be as well.

I don't want to cause more arguments, but your assurances are meaningless without more detailed information to back it up. What does "somewhat higher" mean in numbers?

To be blunt, we're not going to be publicly releasing this kind of data. It's not because we have anything to hide. It's because that's not how this is done.

To be blunt: If Festool is gone use arguments like "that's not how this is done", then you shouldn't expect us to be any more factual. It sounds like a politician trying to twist out of any responsibility, but I guess it's a way of saying that we don't want to give you this information, and we don't want to tell you why. There's many things that can be said without giving out you're statistics, but when you hold your cards so tight to your chest, then you're not doing anything to correct what many of us are thinking and expressing here.

A chain is not stronger then it's weakest link. In this case that link is the motor, and even if the "overall quality and performance" is perfect, that doesn't help much. Statistics can be interpreted to say what you want them to, and the way they are presented doesn't convince me. There's much you can say to enlighten us without giving up you're statistics, but I'm sure the safest action is to silence this matter to death.

I think Festool's being cheap when you demand so much for repairing what (in my view) obviously is a design/component flaw. The least Festool should do is offer these repairs as cheaply as possible, and without any profit on the parts or the work. Many have mentioned that the price for this repair is half the price of the whole saw. I'm sure that the motor doesn't cost any more when Festool buy it as a spare part, then when bought to make new saws. I'm also sure changing the motor doesn't take half as long as making a new saw.

I think that many here is putting to much feelings into this. Make no mistake, Festool is here to make money on us, and we are here to get the best possible tools for the least amount of money. We don't owe it to Festool to accept a faulty product that we have paid a premium price for. I think it's stupid when some take it upon them self's to defend Festool. I feel much more responsible for nuancing the perfect picture of a faultless tool brand that many here are portraying in tool reviews on FOG, youtube, online stores, and elsewhere. New buyers deserve to know that the Kapex is prone to have the motor fail, that the repair is very expensive, and that Festool don't take any responsibility if the warranty is out. So I suggest that those who have had this experience write a review on online stores warning potential buyers about this, so that they can take an informed decision. If someone had done that for me I would have appreciated it, and steered away from this product. I don't think potential buyers will discover this thread. I have no intention of punishing Festool, but I will do what I can to steer them in the direction of taking responsibility for their products problems. I also want them to take a stance on whether they want to be a high quality brand, or a high volume (high profit) brand. If that's the route they are going I'll be looking at other brands from now on. Those who's uncritically defending Festool should reflect some more on their stance. I firmly believe that silently accepting poor quality is not good for Festool, but having demands and addressing problems in a proper way will.

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Offline Ajax

  • Posts: 193
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #301 on: March 09, 2016, 11:41 AM »
Love my Kapex.  Has worked very well.  The lasers are amazing.  The accuracy, ergonomics, and dust control are best in class.  The motor failure stories really worry me.  For what was spent (two to three times its competitors) it should NEVER have reliability issues.

Festool ignores this at their own peril.  All the goodwill and money spent on building the brand can be eroded with incidents like this.  This probably doesn't mean a recall, but at a minimum more transparency on the issue.
Kapex KS120, MFT/3, TS55 REQ, LS130, RTS400, RO90 DX FEQ, D90 Assortment, RO150 REQ, ETS 150/3, PRO5, D150 Assortment, DF 500, Domino 4/5/8/10 Assortment, DF700 XL, Domino 12/14 Assortment,  CT Midi, MFT/3, Kapex MFT, 2 x SysRoll

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 451
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #302 on: March 09, 2016, 03:13 PM »
So,when buying a kapex,place it on the workbench right next to the shipping container it came in.
 
I will buy a kapex for the reasons already said,but will send it I. For service before the  warranty runs out and will keep the box to do so.
Charlie

Offline tomscf

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #303 on: March 09, 2016, 03:51 PM »
I will buy a kapex for the reasons already said,but will send it I. For service before the  warranty runs out and will keep the box to do so.
Charlie

I used my box as a play house for my 1 year old son in spite of Festool advising me to keep it for the reason Charlie mentions. Probably got more use out of the box than the saw to be honest!

In all seriousness, I would say that having any tool which costs this much is worth servicing as often as the demands you put upon it would reasonably require. You wouldn't (shouldn't) drive your car around like a stock car racer for 3 years and not expect it to go kaboom if you haven't given it a bit of tlc now and again.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #304 on: March 09, 2016, 06:47 PM »
I will buy a kapex for the reasons already said,but will send it I. For service before the  warranty runs out and will keep the box to do so.
Charlie

I used my box as a play house for my 1 year old son in spite of Festool advising me to keep it for the reason Charlie mentions. Probably got more use out of the box than the saw to be honest!

In all seriousness, I would say that having any tool which costs this much is worth servicing as often as the demands you put upon it would reasonably require. You wouldn't (shouldn't) drive your car around like a stock car racer for 3 years and not expect it to go kaboom if you haven't given it a bit of tlc now and again.

Please advice what services the kapex requires and what to service to avoid a kapex to go kaboom. ( use a sharp blade is just standard practise so I dont class that as part of the service it kinda equals to a car needing fuel...... Just incase you come back saying a sharp blade [tongue] )
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Online oneeyesquare

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #305 on: March 09, 2016, 09:06 PM »
Mine went in at 2 months old. Motor failure. The saw lives in high end trim jobs, blades swapped out frequently, etc, etc... I use it with the expectation that the motor will fail again. I have roughly a year and half of warranty left. What we be nice ;as well as reassuring, is if every Kapex with a warranty motor failure/repair would have the warranty clock restarted for each subsequent failure. Kind of like the 10 year motor warranty, but different. :)

Offline Chris Perren

  • Posts: 87
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #306 on: March 09, 2016, 10:02 PM »
Although a huge Festool fan, I do believe there is more to this issue that should be corrected by Festool. If it's not a problem then it should be minimum risk for Festool to a provide an extended warenty on just the motor.   

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5152
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #307 on: March 09, 2016, 10:22 PM »
Mine went in at 2 months old. Motor failure. The saw lives in high end trim jobs, blades swapped out frequently, etc, etc... I use it with the expectation that the motor will fail again. I have roughly a year and half of warranty left. What we be nice ;as well as reassuring, is if every Kapex with a warranty motor failure/repair would have the warranty clock restarted for each subsequent failure. Kind of like the 10 year motor warranty, but different. :)

I hate to post for fear of being put on the PETA list for beating a [dead horse]

However, this suggestion really does make sense. If the motor goes south 2 years into the warranty period , then when the motor is replaced under warranty, it should still be under warranty for the next 3 years. The lasers and the rest of the saw, no...but the motor and any other item that was replaced...yes, the parts are new and the warranty coverage is supposed to cover new items for 3 years.

This may alleviate some of the consumer angst that is very prevalent in this thread.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 889
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #308 on: March 09, 2016, 10:31 PM »
If you have a motor repair out of warranty and you pay for it haven't you just bought a new motor and as such it should be warrantied like any other tool purchase.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #309 on: March 09, 2016, 10:41 PM »
If you have a motor repair out of warranty and you pay for it haven't you just bought a new motor and as such it should be warrantied like any other tool purchase.

Agree. For example my car recently had the gear box replaced. Second hand gearbox with 12 months/12000km replacement Warrenty.

And from Makita Australia website -
Parts that have been replaced by an Authorised Makita Service Agent also carry a 3-month warranty against manufacture faults or faulty workmanship. In line with its commitment to service and backup support, Makita Australia’s service centre located at Eastern Creek, Sydney has professional technicians dedicated to providing world-class service for Makita power tools.

Admittedly it is 3 months.

http://www.makita.com.au/Warranty-Registration/warranty-service-and-repair
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 12:11 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6625
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #310 on: March 10, 2016, 01:57 AM »
Regarding the warrenty

 This was another reason I choose to go for a new kapex rather than Repair.

The repair was  at least 60% of the value of a new one or more but they only offer a 6months warrenty with the repair.

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Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #311 on: March 10, 2016, 02:35 AM »
Regarding the warrenty

 This was another reason I choose to go for a new kapex rather than Repair.

The repair was  at least 60% of the value of a new one or more but they only offer a 6months warrenty with the repair.

At least there was a repair warranty. After reading this thread AND checking the Festool Aust site, I could not find any reference to Warrenty on repairs, and yet on the Makita Aust site it was very easy to find.  Just looked at Festool UK site and there it is, 6 months.

Given that your tools are a business expense, I can only support your decision to purchase new rather than repair @jmbfestool  .

« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 04:41 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3665
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #312 on: March 10, 2016, 03:35 AM »
Altho I do not have a Kapex, I have been exposed to the hype along with several demos.  I have read all about the stability, accuracy, the lasers, the angle gauge, the clamp, and the extensions; but the strength of the motor has not been mentioned.  This is from memory, so it is possible i have missed something, but the advertising has not impressed into my 39 year old mind how great the motor is on the Kapex.  I wonder why. 
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline tomscf

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #313 on: March 10, 2016, 12:13 PM »

Please advice what services the kapex requires and what to service to avoid a kapex to go kaboom. ( use a sharp blade is just standard practise so I dont class that as part of the service it kinda equals to a car needing fuel...... Just incase you come back saying a sharp blade [tongue] )

God knows. If I knew what was entailed in overhauling a chop saw motor, I'd save myself a few pennies and do it myself.
To continue the already "tired" car analogy (Ho Ho), I would guess things like lubricating all moving parts that are otherwise inaccessible (oil change) and perhaps checking/adjusting any components that have loosened?
I suppose if I were a Festool technician and I secretly knew what was causing this undisclosed percentage of motors to fail and one came in for a service, one might get lucky and the kindly gentleman might put it right before sending it back out?? It would be worth a shot.
Anyway - I don't want to play devil's advocate here. I know I've spoken up for the Kapex and for Festool as a company  but it's really only because I was finding it frustrating hearing so many people griping about a saw they don't own and have no intention of owning,  yet seem to be the ones shouting the loudest on the whole issue.
I have not been without an issue or two myself and one of them was a static electrical build up in my ts55. I found this forum invaluable in diagnosing the issue and then being able to use anecdotal evidence to request a specific replacement part.
I think that for the very same reason, this thread should indeed keep going so when these motors start popping and going kaboom all over the World (though touch wood they won't) whether within warranty or not, a private case with Festool could perhaps reasonably be resolved to bring down the cost of motor replacement outside of warranty or force a recall of specific batches or whatever.
But again, to use anything as evidence against a person or company, you have to be certain of facts. And if Joe public is having to trawl through 11 pages of people saying how their 300 year old DeWalt still works, it is not entirely helpful when trying to build a case.
I don't want the thread to die a death, I just want those directly affected by issues to state what the saw had been used for, what service they may have had(if any), the symptoms of the problem and any diagnosis they were given and the customer service they then had from either Festool or their dealer or both.
If Festool could then be a bit more specific with what part of the motor seems to be causing the failure then perhaps it would be useful but if I owned a company, the "no smoke without fire"(or burning motors) would probably be better PR than "our motors have armatures made of butter so cross your fingers and hope for the best". I don't expect them to currently do any more than they are doing.
Trust me, if my Kapex blows up 4 or 5 years down the line, I'll be the first one scrutinising this thread and citing various people to back up my requests from Festool and I wholeheartedly sympathise with anyone who has had it happen to them. Don't give up the fight...unless you buy a Milwaukee...in which case you deserve each other  [wink] ...don't lynch me, I'm joking.

Offline safety1st

  • Posts: 139
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #314 on: March 10, 2016, 04:54 PM »
as a kapex owner i am concerned about this thread, like many others i am sure.

i was wondering if anybody has compared failure rates between kapex motor vs say a ts55/ts75 motor?
just to have an apples to apples comparison. maybe a poll on this forum would help?

thanks.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3596
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #315 on: March 10, 2016, 04:57 PM »
Although I'm sure it's happened a number of times, I can only recall seeing two or three mentions of motor failure on the TS in the year and a half I've been on the FOG.  Part of it obviously has to do with the different usage of the machine -- constant running of the TS vs. the stop and start of the mitre saw, which taxes the motor more.  But still, good point.

as a kapex owner i am concerned about this thread, like many others i am sure.

i was wondering if anybody has compared failure rates between kapex motor vs say a ts55/ts75 motor?
just to have an apples to apples comparison. maybe a poll on this forum would help?

thanks.
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Offline DB10

  • Posts: 911
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #316 on: March 10, 2016, 05:16 PM »
Has this this thread lasted longer now than the average Kapex? 

 BTW, If you have one and all is well, then just enjoy using it, there is no point trying to speculate when a motor will go boom. It's all just a law of averages.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 585
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #317 on: March 10, 2016, 07:31 PM »
Has this this thread lasted longer now than the average Kapex? 

 BTW, If you have one and all is well, then just enjoy using it, there is no point trying to speculate when a motor will go boom. It's all just a law of averages.


Even though my saw is one of the ones that just blew up I found a whole lot of hilarity on your post!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #318 on: March 11, 2016, 02:25 AM »
Well I just took a brand new 80 tooth Kapex blade out of it's cardboard packaging to find it covered in rust.

Don't expect your KrAPEX motor to have satisfactorily lubricated bearings if they can't even put a protective film on their mega expensive saw blades [mad] [mad] [mad]

Here in oz ...

494605 KAPEX 80 tooth blade is $312
561288 KAPEX KS120 is $1,895
561415 KAPEX KS120 UG Set is $2,795

Metabo 1800 Watt 254mm Sliding Compound Mitre Saw With Induction Motor is $1,149

A FLAI Mustang 254mm blade is about $245 (IMO this is a blade that makes any of the Festool offerings look amateur)

The Metabo actually has quite good DC (Induction motor version only available in 240v to my knowledge)

If I was another tool manufacturer (like Metabo) I'd be going ape crazy designing a UG style cart and extensions to steal this premium market and use it as a wedge for their other offerings. Take it another step and build a little auto on DC into the stand and BLAM !!

I am of the opinion that my 240v KAPEX is less prone to issues and my light usage is "unlikely" to put me in the failure camp, but in a while I expect to start hitting the KAPEX hard and it's already beyond warranty [eek]

I was trying to be positive .. but the rusty new blade has just tipped me back over the edge [sad]

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #319 on: March 11, 2016, 03:26 AM »
Surely that eager new Festool Sales person at Northern Abrasives will take it back/swap it Kev?!

@Kev @Locky

_______

 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 06:02 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Festoolfootstool

  • Posts: 2076
  • The trouble with Bob is its all about Bob
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #320 on: March 11, 2016, 03:57 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline mwahaha

  • Posts: 110
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #321 on: March 11, 2016, 04:19 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

With convicts used for packaging peanuts. Actually convict sweat could explain the rust. [wink] [wink] [wink]
Makin' chips since ages ago

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #322 on: March 11, 2016, 04:20 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

 [big grin] [big grin]

You'd think they'd at least keep the blade above water on the journey [huh]

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #323 on: March 11, 2016, 04:21 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

With convicts used for packaging peanuts. Actually convict sweat could explain the rust. [wink] [wink] [wink]

YUCK [eek] [scared] ... I touched that blade with my fingers [sad]

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #324 on: March 11, 2016, 04:21 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

 [big grin] [big grin]

You'd think they'd at least keep the blade above water on the journey [huh]

I recall that scene from Kenny.

Offline mwahaha

  • Posts: 110
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #325 on: March 11, 2016, 04:32 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

 [big grin] [big grin]

You'd think they'd at least keep the blade above water on the journey [huh]

Maybe it came via the Arafura Sea 
Makin' chips since ages ago

Offline Davej

  • Posts: 630
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #326 on: March 11, 2016, 05:21 AM »
You have to accept things like this, each blade is sailed to Australia on it own 40ft yacht hence the price.

 [big grin] [big grin]

You'd think they'd at least keep the blade above water on the journey [huh]

The rust is probably caused by sea spray while your blade was sunbathing on the fore deck
I dont mind growing old but i refuse to grow up

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2673
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #327 on: March 11, 2016, 05:59 AM »
Re Metabo and Festool mitre saw stands, here you go Kev [well close!?] Trouble is this is a UK image and after 30mins of looking I can not find it on an Australian web site. Can anyone else find it down here?



@Kev
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:01 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #328 on: March 11, 2016, 10:35 AM »
Re Metabo and Festool mitre saw stands, here you go Kev [well close!?] Trouble is this is a UK image and after 30mins of looking I can not find it on an Australian web site. Can anyone else find it down here?

(Attachment Link)

@Kev


@Untidy Shop

Seen that .. waiting for the motorised version [eek]

Offline Dave Reinhold

  • Posts: 529
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #329 on: March 11, 2016, 01:56 PM »
I checked my tracking number and my kapex has arrived at the Festool service center. I will keep updating this thread with what's going on with my kapex. Hopefully it's not crazy expensive  [eek]

Dave
check out www.youtube.com/user/DaveReinholdTV for new tool demos every week