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Author Topic: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square  (Read 38328 times)

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Offline rst

  • Posts: 1755
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2014, 05:40 PM »
Don't bother with a square... make gauge blocks, one for the rail and one for the fence.  The MFT hole pattern is precise.  Using dogs and a precise measurement (preferably a digital caliper) to make a gauge block for both guides.  When ever you need to re-calibrate, use the blocks to to set your distances.

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Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2014, 06:03 PM »
Isn't that like building a house from the roof peak down? ???

 ???

Tom

Offline Charlie Mac

  • Posts: 365
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2014, 06:20 PM »
Maybe not a good an analogy Tom. Just saying a known accurate square to calibrate the table vs a known squared table to validate a square. And with that I'll stop creating background noise so the OP can get his MFT squared away.  [oops]

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2014, 06:23 PM »
For what it's worth, I have found that the only type of square which has an extremely high chance of actually being square is a machinist's square and then only when they are high quality and a little bit more expensive. Having said that, however, I have also found other squares that are really square, but the surprising thing to me was that, even with high end squares, you are not 100% assured of squareness if you are looking for complete perfection. That was definitely a surprise. Many are very close though. It depends on what you require and what satisfies your needs I think. I'm kind of a perfectionist (unfortunately for me).


That's crazy.  I'm with you.  You you charge a ton, and call it square, it should be square...

Offline crookedcutter

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2014, 06:24 PM »
Isn't that like building a house from the roof peak down? ???

I'm sorry, I don't understand.  Are you saying there's an issue with the order or process of my cuts?

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2014, 06:26 PM »
Without doing a 5 cut test you have no way of knowing whether it is the square, the fence or the rail. You have not established a true reference edge to work off of. Once you do a 5 cut and get the MFT dialed in you'll have a piece to check your square with.

Tom

Tom,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no pro, and there are a lot of things I don't understand.  I could very well be wrong, but, wouldn't the order of cuts that I made cause there to be LESS of an error than the 5-point method would?  If I'm getting this kind of error cutting in the order I am, wouldn't a 5-point cut just magnify the error?  Thanks for your insight...
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 06:31 PM by crookedcutter »

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2014, 06:30 PM »
I meant referencing the square from the edge of your plywood, strike a line. Then flip and repeat. It looks like you drew a line to reference from, which isn't very accurate since you have to eyeball the alignment.

Can you try again? Thanks.

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  The lines lined up perfectly.  Thanks,


104083-0

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2014, 06:34 PM »
Without doing a 5 cut test you have no way of knowing whether it is the square, the fence or the rail. You have not established a true reference edge to work off of. Once you do a 5 cut and get the MFT dialed in you'll have a piece to check your square with.

Tom

Tom,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no pro, and there are a lot of things I don't understand.  I could very well be wrong, but, wouldn't the order of cuts that I made cause there to be LESS of an error than the 5-point method would?  If I'm getting this kind of error cutting in the order I am, wouldn't a 5-point cut just magnify the error?  Thanks for you insight...

You re correct... The 4 cut (or 5 cut) method will amplify the error, generally it would be used to amplify small errors (1mm or less) but in your case, I would say it would be to verify your "offness".

I say you do it anyways.  If you aren't sure how to do it correctly, you can refer to this timely thread...  http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/5-cut-calibration-method/msg310894/?topicseen#msg310894
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline Charlie Mac

  • Posts: 365
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2014, 06:38 PM »
Isn't that like building a house from the roof peak down? ???

I'm sorry, I don't understand.  Are you saying there's an issue with the order or process of my cuts?

No, not at all. Sorry for the confusion.

Offline Festool USA

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2014, 07:17 PM »
Hi Shane.  Please see below.  The lines lined up perfectly.  Thanks,

Ok, good.

So, it looks like your square isn't the issue.

And, we ruled out the saw being the issue.

I'd like to rule out the guide rail next. Can you repeat scribing a line on your rail on side of the rail OPPOSITE the side you checked before, flip and repeat. See if those align. If they do, your rail appears to be the problem because it aligns on one side and not on the other. If they do not, then your rail is not the issue.

And, for those wondering, I come from an IT background. So, my methodology is to troubleshoot by systemically removing potential causes.

Shane

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2014, 08:29 PM »
Maybe not a good an analogy Tom. Just saying a known accurate square to calibrate the table vs a known squared table to validate a square. And with that I'll stop creating background noise so the OP can get his MFT squared away.  [oops]

How do you know the square is accurate? The manufacture told you so? I send all of my calibration out to a calibration lab once a year to be certified. I know my measuring devices are accurate down to 0.0005". Had one company I worked for we had to send our 25' tape measures to the cal lab to be checked.

With the 5 cut method, if you get the rail to fence set where the difference between the two ends of the 5th cut is 0.0005" or less you have a square piece to check your square against. The 5th cut on my MFT is out 0.0000 in just under 24", so I know my MFT is as square as possible. I can check any square against the cut piece. If the square does not align perfectly the square is off, can't be anything else.

I would like to see someone with 4 dogs do a 5 cut to check the accuracy of the hole pattern on the MFT, we all assume it is perfect. A test would be nice to confirm that is the case. I'd do it but I don't own any type of dogs for the MFT.

A simple 5 cut test will identify the problem quickly and allow the OP to begin to make the proper adjustments. By using only the MFT to set itself you have removed the square from the equation.

By the way, I do build from the ridge down. Supporting the roof properly is the most important part of framing layout.

Tom

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2014, 09:29 PM »
Hi Shane.  Please see below.  The lines lined up perfectly.  Thanks,

Ok, good.

So, it looks like your square isn't the issue.

And, we ruled out the saw being the issue.

I'd like to rule out the guide rail next. Can you repeat scribing a line on your rail on side of the rail OPPOSITE the side you checked before, flip and repeat. See if those align. If they do, your rail appears to be the problem because it aligns on one side and not on the other. If they do not, then your rail is not the issue.

And, for those wondering, I come from an IT background. So, my methodology is to troubleshoot by systemically removing potential causes.

Shane

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...


104137-0

104139-1

Offline Festool USA

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2014, 09:44 PM »
Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...

I'm not going in any particular direction. I'm just asking questions to try to find the source of the problem. My last test was actually to make sure your guide rail was straight and parallel on each side. Had there been a taper to the rail or the spline that the saw rides on, those lines would have been trapezoidal.

But, wait a second. Back in reply #9, you checked one side of the rail for me using this method and got different results. You showed a 3/16" difference over 22". What has changed? This test actually seems to show that the issue is potentially resolved. What has changed to make that 3/16" error go away?

Shane

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2014, 09:47 PM »
Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...

I'm not going in any particular direction. I'm just asking questions to try to find the source of the problem. My last test was actually to make sure your guide rail was straight and parallel on each side. Had there been a taper to the rail or the spline that the saw rides on, those lines would have been trapezoidal.

But, wait a second. Back in reply #9, you checked one side of the rail for me using this method and got different results. You showed a 3/16" difference over 22". What has changed? This test actually seems to show that the issue is potentially resolved. What has changed to make that 3/16" error go away?

Shane

I this case I didn't press the plywood against the fence.  I drew the two lines, and then lines up ONE SIDE ONLY, and then drew the other two lines.  (I lined it up against the splinter guard side, since you were checking the back side.)

Offline Festool USA

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2014, 10:00 PM »
Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2014, 10:21 PM »
Crookedcutter:
What were the results of your 5 cut test?
Tim

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2014, 10:33 PM »
Check to see if the non-hinged end of the rail support is on plane with the MFT top. Any pitch will throw the MFT out of square.

Tim, I'm guessing he isn't going to do a 5 cut test. So far that there is nothing wrong with anything-----------------but the cut results. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 10:38 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline crookedcutter

  • Posts: 14
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2014, 11:20 PM »
Check to see if the non-hinged end of the rail support is on plane with the MFT top. Any pitch will throw the MFT out of square.

Tim, I'm guessing he isn't going to do a 5 cut test. So far that there is nothing wrong with anything-----------------but the cut results. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom

Sorry fellas...I've been crazy busy at work lately.  I haven't taken the time to do the cut test - I'll get 'er done and let you know the results.  I truly do appreciate all the help everyone has offered.

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2014, 11:47 PM »
If/when you get around to the test cut, mark the fence end then post the width of the fence end and start end. The distance from fence to the rail support bracket, post that also.

Tom

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2014, 01:33 AM »
Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

I am sorry but unless I have missed it - you must check that the reference edge of the piece of plywood is straight.

If the OP has not got a reliable straight edge he could use the rear fence of the MFT but would have to use it twice. Once using one side of the fence and the second time using the opposite side and halve the difference.

Again going back to the work I am doing right now. I had some dodgy results after cutting a drawer side and eventually checked the reference edge of the piece with my straight edge. It was very slightly convex which meant that when it went on the Kapex and I pushed it against the fence (using my let hand) the cut was not square to the part of the edge nearest the cut (on the right) - which is precisely where the square goes when checking the cut. A couple of swipes with my Jack plane and the problem was solved.

Check the reference edge of that piece of ply before you tear your MFT apart or start exchanging gear at the retailer's store.

Peter

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 07:54 AM »
. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom
Your standards are falling, I would have thought you could have achieved 0.00000 in 24" for sure... [wink]
Tim

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2014, 08:08 AM »
Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

I am sorry but unless I have missed it - you must check that the reference edge of the piece of plywood is straight.

If the OP has not got a reliable straight edge he could use the rear fence of the MFT but would have to use it twice. Once using one side of the fence and the second time using the opposite side and halve the difference.

Again going back to the work I am doing right now. I had some dodgy results after cutting a drawer side and eventually checked the reference edge of the piece with my straight edge. It was very slightly convex which meant that when it went on the Kapex and I pushed it against the fence (using my let hand) the cut was not square to the part of the edge nearest the cut (on the right) - which is precisely where the square goes when checking the cut. A couple of swipes with my Jack plane and the problem was solved.

Check the reference edge of that piece of ply before you tear your MFT apart or start exchanging gear at the retailer's store.

Peter

This is why a 5 cut test is the best way (should be the only way) to test and square any table saw, miter saw, radial arm saw, swing saw, MFT........................

You've removed any outside influence/tool and every reference face is created by the same "machine". Any other procedure or method is a lesson in futility (as witnessed in this thread) and will not produce the desired results.

As I stated earlier, once you get the "machine" set up properly you have a test piece to check your squares.

An extra feather key really helps when setting up the MFT.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2014, 08:17 AM »
. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom
Your standards are falling, I would have thought you could have achieved 0.00000 in 24" for sure... [wink]
Tim

My test tools are not certified to that decimal place, so I cannot in good conscience state the MFT is that accurate. ;)

I used to test and set an EDM that had a tolerance of 0.0005 in the X,Y and Z axis @ 36". You had to place the tools in the climate controlled room 24 hours prior to checking the machine. If you held the tool for more than a minute you had to set that one down and let it stabilize. Setting the upper blade on the stainless steel sheer was fun also, had to set a 0.0015" curve in the 6' long blade, the 12' meal sheer was easy, that was a 0.005 curve in 12'.

Tom

Offline grbmds

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2014, 09:27 AM »
So this 5-cut test will work with the size you can work with on the MFT table? Your responses talk about squareness within 24", but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted. I believe it's less than that. You guys have me concerned now. I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.
Randy

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2014, 10:00 AM »
... but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted.

I currently have mine set up to cut 24". My Fence is about as far back as it can go and I have about 1" in front of a 24" panel. The saw rests on the leading edge of the rail supported by the guide rail supports.

I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.

Sounds like you are good, so no worries.
A small engineers square makes it more time consuming to set up the rail. When adjusting the rail to 90 degrees to the fence against a small surface of the square you can sometimes introduce small errors in square because of leverage in the rail can move it out a couple degrees.

It is irrelevant where the fence is in relationship to the table, what is important is the relationship of the rail to the fence. As long as the rail is 90 degrees to the rail fence, you will get a square cut.
So in other words the rail can be a 30 degrees to the table or dog holes but as long as the fence is 90 degrees to it you will make a square cut.

fixed rail to rail circular argument...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 10:14 AM by Tim Raleigh »

Offline gkaiseril

  • Posts: 329
Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2014, 10:26 AM »
This must be the woodworkers theory of Relativity!
George Kaiser

TS 55 REQ, RO 90, RO 150, CT 26, PSB 420, MFT/3

Offline grbmds

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2014, 10:52 AM »
... but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted.

I currently have mine set up to cut 24". My Fence is about as far back as it can go and I have about 1" in front of a 24" panel. The saw rests on the leading edge of the rail supported by the guide rail supports.

I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.

Sounds like you are good, so no worries.
A small engineers square makes it more time consuming to set up the rail. When adjusting the rail to 90 degrees to the fence against a small surface of the square you can sometimes introduce small errors in square because of leverage in the rail can move it out a couple degrees.

It is irrelevant where the fence is in relationship to the table, what is important is the relationship of the rail to the fence. As long as the rail is 90 degrees to the rail fence, you will get a square cut.
So in other words the rail can be a 30 degrees to the table or dog holes but as long as the fence is 90 degrees to it you will make a square cut.

fixed rail to rail circular argument...

I actually find that there is an advantage to squaring the fence to the holes. It means I can use dogs (like Parf dogs) as the fence for 45 degree cuts without changing fence and checking squareness again later. Sinc I don't do that many 45s this is an easy way to do them. I did a larger picture frame late last year using the dogs as the fence and the mitered corners were the most accurate I've ever done.
Randy

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2014, 07:46 PM »
Any size piece you can comfortably work with will be okay.

Ultimately when I'm done with the 24" piece ends up about 23-3/4" in length and I cut off about 3/4" to measure. Once you get the MFT dialed in it should not come out of square.

Tom


Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2014, 12:49 PM »
This must be the woodworkers theory of Relativity!


...Well maybe just my theory of relativity... [big grin]

Offline jafenske

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Re: TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2014, 12:20 AM »
I also recently got a mft/3 and I was having a difficult time getting a square cut. I followed the information in this thread and I pleased to report that I am 1 thousandth out of square over 24 inches. I used the 5 cut method and the Half inch shy method to get there. Thanks.