Author Topic: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills  (Read 68849 times)

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Offline PaulW

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  • Michigan USA
C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« on: February 12, 2008, 10:48 AM »
Check out these three drills do battle with a 3 inch hole saw.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 11:02 AM by PaulW »

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Offline Michael H Hinkel

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 10:57 AM »
I see nothing  :o

Offline PaulW

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 11:05 AM »
You guys are fast...link fixed.
I read the tec review before I bought mine...what a tank.
My 19 year old son summed it up nicely after showing him the drill and explaining the features.
"That's how a drill should me made, using the technology that is available today"
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 11:27 AM by PaulW »

Offline Dave Rudy

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 12:51 PM »
That is impressive!

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 01:06 PM »
  I've you seen a few of Joseph's videos, some of them are kinda comical. His videos of the C12 are probably not Festool's idea of a good endorsement. Comparing a 12 year old drill and an inexpensive drill to the C12 isn't necessarily fair to any of the manufactures. Drilling a 3" hole in 1" oak is not the job of a cordless drill anyhow, well maybe for the larger cordless drills. Notice he got his hands on the vents of the drills, that not going to help keep them from burning up. I really like when he blows the dust out of the hole and back in his face.  :D

  I'm not trying to be overly critical of the guy, he has some nice articles on his site and he knows more about the construction trades than I do. But, be careful how you represent yourself on the Internet, people are reading and watching. This is a reminder for me to be very careful when I'm making my videos, I don't want to make good tools look bad.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline brandon.nickel

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 02:58 PM »
I've never seen a hole saw that had any decent evacuation capabilities.  Especially in man-made materials.  The teeth just get coated and the drill creates smoke, not a hole.  I think the process he shows here is not a very good example of driving torque.  Maybe a 1.5" Irwin auger or some such.  I don't think any drill will work well given the way he's attempting to drill those holes.
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Offline Dan Clermont

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 07:51 PM »
I already own the C12 and if I didn't own the C12 that video would not convince me to buy it.

Even though the 12 year old Dewalt had new batteries it is still an old drill!! It is tired, probably not worth buying new batteries for when you consider the replacement costs and todays drills/technology. The Hitachi isn't what I would consider a drill worth buying either.

Never considered using my C12 to drill a large hole in oak like that. I'd probably grab a corded drill with a 1/2" chuck.

Dan Clermont
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Offline PaulW

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 10:32 PM »
I guess I would have to agree.  You guy's have some good points.
I love my C20 regardless of peak power.
For me it was a combo of things that sold me, like the Brushless motor and the way it protects itself, the solid state switches and the convenience of all the chucks.
Allthough if I had a 1 1/2' Irwin auger lying about  ;)

Offline Tom Gensmer

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 10:48 PM »
I've never seen a hole saw that had any decent evacuation capabilities.  Especially in man-made materials.  The teeth just get coated and the drill creates smoke, not a hole.  I think the process he shows here is not a very good example of driving torque.  Maybe a 1.5" Irwin auger or some such.  I don't think any drill will work well given the way he's attempting to drill those holes.

I too have not been terribly impressed with hole saws. I periodically install bath fan ductwork, and have adopted the Lenox 4 5/16 One-Tooth holesaw for these large diameter holes. The large carbide tooth cuts a kerf wide enough that the body of the bit is less likely to bind in the hole, and it's relatively easy to resharpen. If I'm on the ground I'll use my big corded Makita DA4031 right angle drill, and if I'm up on the roof the Makita 18v LXT drill will run it reasonably well.

http://www.lenoxtools.com/enUS/Product/ONE_TOOTH_ROUGH_WOOD_HOLE_CUTTER.html
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Offline brandon.nickel

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 09:23 PM »
Aha.  A hole saw that includes a way to clear the kerf.  Good idea.  I bought a set in Germany that were a series of curved sheet metal arcs that slid into an upper ring.  Those worked pretty well, but I've never seen their like here in the US.  Unfortunately I had to leave that set there.  Now I have a  couple of sets (Irwin/Craftsman) and neither works well unless I constantly remove and reinsert the saw into the kerf after cleaning out the swarf.
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Offline Barry

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2008, 09:50 PM »
Maybe it is just me, but the biggest tool in the video was the guy wearing the flannel.....  Also he leaned pretty hard on that dewalt while cutting, which he didn't do with the C12.  Not to mention the fact that you heard the C12 cut off with a beep many times and yet he kept double slapping the trigger until it started back up.  Nothing useful could be gained by watching that video and I stopped half way through.  Matter of fact I want to know where to send the bill for the 4 minutes of my life I wasted watching that guy abuse cordless drills....
Central NJ

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2008, 11:49 PM »
Aha.  A hole saw that includes a way to clear the kerf.  Good idea.  I bought a set in Germany that were a series of curved sheet metal arcs that slid into an upper ring.  Those worked pretty well, but I've never seen their like here in the US.  Unfortunately I had to leave that set there.  Now I have a  couple of sets (Irwin/Craftsman) and neither works well unless I constantly remove and reinsert the saw into the kerf after cleaning out the swarf.


Hi,

  I am sure I have seen this type somewhere in the US. Sorry I don't remember off hand. 

  I havn't used hole saws a lot. But I have a 4 1/2" milwaukee, and a nice carbide tipped blue 3" one ( forget the brand now). In any case I put them in a big , heavy duty, corded 1/2" drill-  that makes it no problem.   Except getting the core out of it :(


Seth

Offline PaulW

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 01:00 AM »
Sorry Barry for wasting four minutes of your life ::)
But anyway, after watching the video again the other day I to noticed the difference in pressure he was putting on the different drills.  I respect the mans knowledge as well but trying to force the outcome of a test is shamefull and I am embarrassed in how quickly I was fooled. :'(

Offline Barry

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 06:27 AM »
Sorry Paul, that was meant to be more tongue in cheek than it came across.  Just cracking a bad joke when I was a little tired.  For what it is worth I have many dewalt drills and will run a small self feed auger and the occasional hole saw, but if I have more than one or two holes to do I grab the right tool for the jobs, something with a cord attached...

I'm sure the C12 is a great drill, but when I can have multiple drills all chucked up for different purposes for the same price it looks a little less attractive.
Central NJ

Offline PaulW

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2008, 01:10 AM »
Just poking a little fun at you Barry, no offence taken  ;)
I do agree Barry there is something to be said about grabbing the right tool for the job. I have no plans to sell my 3/8" or 1/2" corded drills.

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2008, 03:54 PM »
Well it seems like some of you boys are a bit too critical of the video I made to show case my C12 and some of you seem to like to poke fun at the fat guy in the flannel . . .  Well luckily for you Barry, after 10 years on-line and being the king of the flame war I developed a pretty thick skin to remark s like yours. So consider this a pass.

The purpose of the video was to show what most people perceive as quality tools vs a truly quality tool.  Both those 18 volt drills would do quite well in just about any task you asked of them but the most demanding, and drilling a 1" piece of oak with a 3" hole saw is pretty demanding to say the least.
 
The fact that the C12 preformed better than a perceived "more powerful" tools is the entire point. Brice made the comment about me covering the vent holes on the other drills and that was true because of the design of the drills, the vent holes are right where you'd like to put your other hand when you'd need to apply some additional force (the back end). If he would have looked at his C12 he would have noticed that the vent holes on it are on the side and mid way down so if you put pressure on the back end of the drill the majority of the vents are not covered.  Someone at Festool was thinking about it. . .

Also hearing the drill beeping and clicking was a valuable part of the video as it showed how the engineering of the drills internal electronics prevented it (and the operator) from destroying tool which was clearly not the case with the other two drills.

Now in all honesty when I watch it myself, I kinda crack up a bit as it's a good exercise in how not to take one's self to seriously. . . Something that may be lacking with a few of you. . .
 
Joe Fusco.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 04:02 PM by Jack Rafter »
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
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Offline mastercabman

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2008, 04:49 PM »
i,to think the video is not really a fair comparison,but i can relate to it.
before i got my c12,i worked with a 12v.hilti and a 18v. milwaukee.
(you can't beat a hilti!)i smoked the milwaukee,that supposed to be more powerful and last longer.
i still have my hilti( needs new batteries,8 years old).the milwaukee,in the trash!
i never liked the drill anyway so i didn't bother with to get it repaired.it was 11/2 year old.
i used the milwaukee mainly for drilling,3/16 solid bit,hole saw from 1" to 3"but usually on 1/4" panel and sometime 1/2 ply or part.board.
festool claims that you can't hurt the motor on the c12. working with the c12 for almost 3 years now,i believe it!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 05:10 PM »
Paul,

I hope you don't believe that I was trying to sway the results of the test I did because I wanted the C12 to look good. I can assure I did not. The reason why I applied that much force on the Dewalt was that If I didn't, it just won't cut. If you look back on the Hitachi you'll see I didn't need to apply nearly as much force. Once again I can only say that I wanted to show that in an extreme situation this drill preform very well. Also I'm not the poster boy for Festool, since I paid the near $8000.00 for their "stuff' I can say pretty much what I feel about their tools as just about anyone here can. There are somethings I like and there are others that are well, less than what I'd like.

Now ask me how I fell about this drill/driver as a driver and I'd say it's better than any other drill/drive but it can't compare to my $130.00 12V Hitachi  Impact Driver I bought from Lowes or any other impact drive on the market. Impact drivers just drive screw better than drills and that's a fact. So, if you can afford the now $550.00+ price tag for the complete drill set and you want a drill that can stand up to the punishment of extreme tasks, than a C12 might be for you. But if you want  to just drive screws than you can do a lot better than a C12 and I don't care how long the screw is.
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
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Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 05:19 PM »
Mastercabman,

Just how do you mean?
There really isn't a cordless drill/driver in the same league as the C12 so in theory any comparison is with fault.
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
www.josephfusco.org www.constructionforumsonline.com
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Offline mastercabman

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2008, 05:45 PM »
jack,i guess you are right,i think maybe if the other drill was built like the c12 it would be more of a fair test.
brushless motor
electronic torque control
auto shut off when the motor gets a too hot.and maybe more,but i do like to see that the c12 is capable to do as good or better than those higher voltage drill.
sorry for the comfusing.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2008, 06:15 PM »
Mastercabman,

Well with that being the case than we'd only be able to compare C12's with other C12's  ;D
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
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Offline SRSemenza

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2008, 06:26 PM »
Mastercabman,

Well with that being the case than we'd only be able to compare C12's with other C12's  ;D

      Will we start seeing hopped up C12s now :)

            I think the test does a great job of showing that
                                                - a). The C12 could do the job if asked to.
                                                  b).  The protection Circuitry really does keep the drill from killing itself.
                                                  c). That it has amazing power and torgue for its size and voltage.


Seth

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 06:28 PM »
Seth,

Ditto!
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
www.josephfusco.org www.constructionforumsonline.com
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2008, 07:30 PM »
  Hey Joe thanks for sharing your side of the story. If you guys get a chance check out Joe's site, he has some great articles and videos. And Joe I really like your setup to help clamp the stock and rail for the LR32 hole drilling system.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 07:31 PM by Brice Burrell »
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline alg

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2008, 08:09 PM »
Joe,

I stayed up late last night watching your videos before I read this thread. Good thing. I went and bought the C12 set.
Not long ago, I tried using my Makita 18V LXT lithium ion hammer drill with a new 2 1/2" hole-saw (Greenlee) through 3/4" MDF. It barely made it and took the better part of 2 minutes. I had to use my Milwaukee corded drill, took less than 30 seconds with no black marks.

Bill, from FestoolSupply, has 3", 4" hole saws that he uses a C12 to make holes in granite and corian. Your video confirmed what I expected... the C12 can and others are questionable.
Good job, keep doing what you are doing, there are people like me who just want to see the tool in action and don't need a scientific design of experiment done.

thanks from Seattle,

Al
Seattle, WA. USA.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2008, 08:21 PM »
Hi,

     Joe,
   I would be interested to see, or at least read (dial up here), a comparison of these drills when using a bit size in the upper end of the range that would be considered normal use for a cordless drill.   Maybe something like a 1" - 1 1/2" spade, auger, or forstner?   If you feel like doing another test. 


Seth

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2008, 08:22 PM »
Brice,

No problem, I've watched some of the stuff you do/did and a laugh out loud sometimes. As I'm sure you know, that like you it's not done with any malice. The biggest part of doing things like this is that not everyone sees the world in the same color. I really thought that the test of the drills was a practical one with a real world demanding application. Does anyone really want to see another 14" screw driven into something? ::)

Anyway thanks for the plug, and keep up the nice work and demo's you do. ;)

« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 08:35 PM by Jack Rafter »
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
www.josephfusco.org www.constructionforumsonline.com
MFT1080:TS55:FS1080/2:FS1400/2(2):FS2700/2:CT33E:OF1010:OF1400:OF2000E:LR32:RO150E:EST150-3:PS300EQ:VS600:C12:HL850E

Offline Joe Fusco

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2008, 08:29 PM »
Al,

I'd just like to sent a thanks back at you. ;D

Seth,

I've got a bunch on board already like finishing my basic cabinet making videos (finished end panels, drawer boxes, doors and finishing), some more on crown moulding and then another big project on roof cutting. But considering that that test would be small and quick I'm sure I can do it. If you subscribe to my YouTube page you'd be notified every time a new video was put up.
Former Fat Guy with a C12. . . .
www.josephfusco.org www.constructionforumsonline.com
MFT1080:TS55:FS1080/2:FS1400/2(2):FS2700/2:CT33E:OF1010:OF1400:OF2000E:LR32:RO150E:EST150-3:PS300EQ:VS600:C12:HL850E

Offline Chris N

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2008, 10:10 PM »
I really enjoyed the video(s).  Joe - you seems like a very practical guy and I appreciate your candor and your ideas.  The MFT repair is a really good idea.

Last year I had to drill almost 40 4" holes in a soffit (for ventilation) using a 4" hole saw.  I was working on a ladder, above my head.  I started with my 3/8" corded drill, and cooked the gears.  I then used my 1/2" panasonic cordless until could get my neighbors 1/2" corded bosch.  The panasonic survived, and I found out the bosch had a clutch to protect the gearbox.  That clutch probably saved me from a broken wrist, or worse.

I found out (about 20 holes into it) that if I started with the hole saw, then drilled 1-2 relief holes (1/2" or 3/4" with a speedbore bit, inside the 4" circle), and then continued with the hole saw the hole was finished in less than 1/2 the time and less than 1/2 the effort as compared to trying to do the whole (or hole?) thing at once with the 4" saw.  I was drilling through 1" thick aluminum clad pine, so it was not all that hard, but I think the impact would be similar in oak.  The relief holes made a huge difference.

Chris


Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: C 12 Drill VS two 18v drills
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2008, 01:32 AM »
Joe,
How about the c12 vs a decent drill like the 14.4 Revolithium Panasonic. It has a brushless motor and advanced electronics very much like the c12. I bet the Panasonic runs circles around the C12. And at half the price of the C12 you get the most advanced battery system on the market.

Eiji