Ken Nagrod
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« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2012, 09:46 PM » |
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You people are acting like crazy women during an 80% off shoe sale! Don't knock each other over to get one.  |
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VictorL
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Location: South-Central CT Member Since: Feb 2007
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« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2012, 09:59 PM » |
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I guess that would be a great marketing strategy -- many, many would decide to own both models.  Crikey yes. $1000 and I'm in. Yep! this is magic number. I do have DF-500, and will use it mostly. I need DF XL-700 like ADDITIONAL tool, not primary or single tool. Intro price for $660 for DF-500 set back in 2007 was VERY important selling point. Ahh. and $200 for domino assortment systainer.... |
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andvari
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Location: Central NJ Member Since: Oct 2011
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« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2012, 10:13 PM » |
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I used to occasionally shop at a place called Filene's Automatic Bargain Basement in Boston. The women's clothing section didn't have dressing rooms, nor were they needed because the women would just try the clothes on in the aisles. The men's section had dressing rooms. The worst was when they had the annual bridal gown sale. That day you really needed to avoid the place before noon. Filene's calls it "the running of the brides". They camp out overnight to get a early jump, and the bride would bring a team of 'helpers' to scout out likely candidates. http://www.filenesbasement.com/running-of-the-brides/I never heard of team shopping before. |
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 11:24 PM by andvari »
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TS55, Domino 500, Domino Assortment, OF1400, CT36+Boom Arm, T12+3, FS3000, Parallel Guides, RO 90, ETS 150/3, Domino XL, Domiplate, LS130, RTS Guide Stop, CMS-GE
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John Stevens
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Location: Ardmore, PA Member Since: Jan 2007
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Ardmore, PA
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« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2012, 10:44 PM » |
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You can set the depth of cut to a minimum of 15mm and buy some of the long stock Festool will be selling to custom cut 8x30 Dominos. It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!! Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby! I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones. Regards, John |
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What this world needs is a good retreat.
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John Stevens
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Location: Ardmore, PA Member Since: Jan 2007
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Ardmore, PA
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« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2012, 10:50 PM » |
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Most people want to see the tenon all the way through, any issues blowing out the other side of the work piece? In my experience with the DF500, no. In fact, if you plunge slowly enough, you don't even need a backer board. Regards, John |
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What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart
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Kev
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« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2012, 12:50 AM » |
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Wow - that's just absolutely rude to every other sucker country on the planet - $1975 base in Oz and our dollar is buying about 1.09 US last I checked. So for equivalence I'm paying over $2100 for that same thing.
Festool just made me a very unhappy customer.
Good for you US guys, but sucking the blood out of the rest of the planet to subsidies US market penetration has got to stop NOW !
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RonWen
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« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2012, 03:12 AM » |
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Wow - that's just absolutely rude to every other sucker country on the planet - $1975 base in Oz and our dollar is buying about 1.09 US last I checked. So for equivalence I'm paying over $2100 for that same thing.
Festool just made me a very unhappy customer.
Good for you US guys, but sucking the blood out of the rest of the planet to subsidies US market penetration has got to stop NOW !
Of course you realize that none of us has the slightest clue of what the selling price will be, just all wishful thinking on our part. It might end up being $1675 or $1875 or who knows what...  |
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woodguy7
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Location: wick, scotland Member Since: Apr 2009
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« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2012, 04:38 AM » |
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Calm down Kev  . |
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If its made of wood, i can make it smaller.
Shirt size medium
p.s- ive started reading these too
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Kev
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Location: Australia Member Since: Nov 2011
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« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48 AM » |
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Calm down Kev . Perfectly calm - alway am ... but not particularly happy. I can see what the world is driven by (even the Festool part) ... but sadly it doesn't make it right! I have a lot of respect for the researchers, designers, engineers, manufacturers, quality control and support people. But as with most organisations ... the marketing and sales arms should be ... well ... I'm too polite to say. |
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GreenGA
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Location: Marlton, New Jersey, USA Member Since: Oct 2007
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JR
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« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2012, 08:46 AM » |
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Because I have done very little traditional M&T construction, here is a technical question for those more experienced than I.  As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material. Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension? If so, why? It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!! Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby! I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones.
John
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Never use a 2x4 when a 2x6 will do just as well
SYS-Lite, CMS/GE, TS55, KAPEX, MFT/3, CXS Kit, C15 Set, TI 15 Set, C12 Set, CT48 w/Boom Arm, HL850, RO90, RTS400, DTS400, LS130, DX93, RO150, ETS 150/3, RAS 115/4E, RS2E, Domino Classic, OF1010 EQ, OF2000E+, OF1400, MFS700, LR 32-SYS+97" rail, 2011 Centrotec, Zobo Forstner Bit Set, Guide Rail Kit, Parallel Guides, Tradesman Cleaning Set, Shinex, lotsa 'tainers (Sorts, Attics, Classic, New and Blue).
Coming Attractions: MFK700 Kit, Workcenter, Domino XL Kit, Carvex 420 & Accessory Kit
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VictorL
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Location: South-Central CT Member Since: Feb 2007
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« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2012, 08:57 AM » |
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Because I have done very little traditional M&T construction, here is a technical question for those more experienced than I. As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material. Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension? If so, why? It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!! Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby! I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones.
John
Did not get it either. 70mm deep is 2 4/5" so you can cut through 2 3/4" stock. 8mm is the smallest bit, but there are 10mm (3/8") 12mm (1/2") and 14mm bits. |
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RonWen
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« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2012, 09:12 AM » |
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My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths? e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.
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keithjfuji1439
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Location: Hockessin, DE, USA Member Since: Oct 2011
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« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2012, 09:52 AM » |
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My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths? e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.
The 8mm cutter is "only" capable of 50mm depth. The 10, 12 and 14mm cutters are 70mm. |
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TS 55 EQ, OF 1400, Domino XL 700, RTS 400 EQ, RO 90 DX, RO 150 FEQ, MFT/3, Guide Rail 800, Guide Rail 1080, Guide Rail 1400(x2), Guide Rail 3000, Parallel Guide Set, LR32 Set, MFS 400, CT 26 E and all sorts of sundry little pieces...
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RussellS
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« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2012, 11:54 AM » |
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As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material. Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?
The loose tenons could be a fraction of a fraction of less than 1% less strong than a traditional tenon. With the traditional tenon the tenon is part of the wood with the grain running the same direction. With the loose tenon the tenon is glued into both pieces of wood. Grain does not match. So in theory it could be less strong. But glue is actually stronger than the wood, so it would not be much less strong. The problem with all the way through loose tenons is that the wood is a different species. Its a beech loose tenon. While the wood you are using is cherry, walnut, oak, maple, etc. So the Domino loose tenons won't match too well if they are a loose tenon. Concealed loose tenons, no problem. Exposed through tenons, wood won't match. |
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andvari
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Location: Central NJ Member Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 333
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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2012, 12:12 PM » |
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Some third party outfit sells an item "Tuffer Tenons" that are supposed to be Domino compatible in a variety of wood species - oak maple etc.
I haven't tried them, but perhaps they would be more suitable in through tenon designs.
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TS55, Domino 500, Domino Assortment, OF1400, CT36+Boom Arm, T12+3, FS3000, Parallel Guides, RO 90, ETS 150/3, Domino XL, Domiplate, LS130, RTS Guide Stop, CMS-GE
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Rick Christopherson
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« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2012, 01:00 PM » |
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My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths? e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.
I hadn't noticed it until Keith mentioned it, but the shank on the 8mm bit does have a shorter shoulder location. This will limit the depth to about 50mm. Unlike the 4mm cutter, all of the DF700 cutters are the same overall length. |
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GreenGA
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Location: Marlton, New Jersey, USA Member Since: Oct 2007
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JR
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« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2012, 01:10 PM » |
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So, leaving aside differences in wood species because of color and grain orientation when using a through tenon, the resultant connection would be almost the same.  As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material. Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?
The loose tenons could be a fraction of a fraction of less than 1% less strong than a traditional tenon. With the traditional tenon the tenon is part of the wood with the grain running the same direction. With the loose tenon the tenon is glued into both pieces of wood. Grain does not match. So in theory it could be less strong. But glue is actually stronger than the wood, so it would not be much less strong. The problem with all the way through loose tenons is that the wood is a different species. Its a beech loose tenon. While the wood you are using is cherry, walnut, oak, maple, etc. So the Domino loose tenons won't match too well if they are a loose tenon. Concealed loose tenons, no problem. Exposed through tenons, wood won't match. |
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Never use a 2x4 when a 2x6 will do just as well
SYS-Lite, CMS/GE, TS55, KAPEX, MFT/3, CXS Kit, C15 Set, TI 15 Set, C12 Set, CT48 w/Boom Arm, HL850, RO90, RTS400, DTS400, LS130, DX93, RO150, ETS 150/3, RAS 115/4E, RS2E, Domino Classic, OF1010 EQ, OF2000E+, OF1400, MFS700, LR 32-SYS+97" rail, 2011 Centrotec, Zobo Forstner Bit Set, Guide Rail Kit, Parallel Guides, Tradesman Cleaning Set, Shinex, lotsa 'tainers (Sorts, Attics, Classic, New and Blue).
Coming Attractions: MFK700 Kit, Workcenter, Domino XL Kit, Carvex 420 & Accessory Kit
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stairman
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Location: Bonita Springs FL Member Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 143
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« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2012, 01:18 PM » |
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So who is going to use this to make window sashes and wooden storm windows?
Most people want to see the tenon all the way through, any issues blowing out the other side of the work piece?
I don't really see the XL as a jobsite tool, which correlates with my, I can get a mortiser and tenoner for about what the XL would cost.
I beg to differ. I'll begin assembling 2 stairs with it next week, 12mm dominos for treads and 4x14mm for ea newel. Once I finish milling the handrails and fittings, I'll use it with the handrail fence to join handrail parts. there's no guessing about it, it WILL save a lot of time while providing a better product, -but that's what Festool is all about (& I need not mention the part about looking a lot better while doing it  ) |
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Kapex on a UG, TS75, OF1400 (x2) OF2000,,HL850, Domino, RO90, RO125, LS130, RAS115, MFT3, C12 Set, CXS Set, LR32 Set, arsenal growing as fast as I can afford it!
Looking to buy: RO150EQ+ ; LR32 guide rails, 3000mm guide rail, parallel guide set ; another TS55 to replace the 1 I sold... OF1010 and additional Festool Routers ; RS2 ; and a FESTOOL BS105 BELT SANDER SET
OK, let's face it, I'm always looking for any Festools / accessories.
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Rick Christopherson
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Location: Central U.S. Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 736
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« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2012, 01:18 PM » |
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Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?
Floating tenon is the correct term, and it just means that the tenon joint is comprised of 3 members instead of two. With all other things being equal, unless the tenon length into the parallel grain is short, there is no difference in strength. With all things NOT being equal, sometimes a floating tenon like Domino can actually be stronger. Specifically, instead of a single wide tenon, there would be several smaller tenons with a web of material in between them. This remaining web of material keeps the two joining pieces stronger. Of course you can do the same thing with a traditional tenon. Another thing that improves the strength of a Domino tenon joint is how tight the mortise and tenon fit together. When the DF500 first came out, a lot of people complained about how tight the tenons fit, but didn't realize that this is what made them so good. Glue by itself has no strength. It is only the close contact of the joining surfaces with the glue, that makes a glue joint stronger than the surrounding wood. |
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Rembo
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Location: Russia Member Since: Jan 2012
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« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2012, 02:19 PM » |
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Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?
Floating tenon is the correct term, and it just means that the tenon joint is comprised of 3 members instead of two. With all other things being equal, unless the tenon length into the parallel grain is short, there is no difference in strength. With all things NOT being equal, sometimes a floating tenon like Domino can actually be stronger. Specifically, instead of a single wide tenon, there would be several smaller tenons with a web of material in between them. This remaining web of material keeps the two joining pieces stronger. Of course you can do the same thing with a traditional tenon. Another thing that improves the strength of a Domino tenon joint is how tight the mortise and tenon fit together. When the DF500 first came out, a lot of people complained about how tight the tenons fit, but didn't realize that this is what made them so good. Glue by itself has no strength. It is only the close contact of the joining surfaces with the glue, that makes a glue joint stronger than the surrounding wood. I conducted an experiment with homemade spikes. this is what came of it .. |
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Rembo
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Location: Russia Member Since: Jan 2012
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« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2012, 02:35 PM » |
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the next test will be shaking. Props to a sports club (fight)
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stairman
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Location: Bonita Springs FL Member Since: Sep 2011
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« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2012, 02:37 PM » |
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 Argh! I'm already way past the half hour I take -but here I go getting sucked in again...  I, too have glued up some test pieces, only had a chance to test one 8mm joint and one 14mm joint... I use a hydraulic press for my "volunteers" -and I am careful as possible about keeping all things equal for accurate interpretation I'll have a camera setup for the full testing sequence, but for a reference and a brief description: Hard Maple-Cope & Stick joint, -the cope and stick profile shatters and splinters most of the joint remains, but the joinery area is toast 6mm dominos AND the 8mm I tried this AM, the wood broke behind the mortise with the grain, nothing cross-grain 14mil by 140mm, something surprised me, the ram penetrated through the assembly and blew out the bottom. looks like it was blasted with a 10ga slug! any thoughts on this?
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Kapex on a UG, TS75, OF1400 (x2) OF2000,,HL850, Domino, RO90, RO125, LS130, RAS115, MFT3, C12 Set, CXS Set, LR32 Set, arsenal growing as fast as I can afford it!
Looking to buy: RO150EQ+ ; LR32 guide rails, 3000mm guide rail, parallel guide set ; another TS55 to replace the 1 I sold... OF1010 and additional Festool Routers ; RS2 ; and a FESTOOL BS105 BELT SANDER SET
OK, let's face it, I'm always looking for any Festools / accessories.
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GreenGA
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Location: Marlton, New Jersey, USA Member Since: Oct 2007
Posts: 629
JR
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« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2012, 03:10 PM » |
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Folks, I realy apprecaite the M&T education. It was..., ah..., educational.  |
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Never use a 2x4 when a 2x6 will do just as well
SYS-Lite, CMS/GE, TS55, KAPEX, MFT/3, CXS Kit, C15 Set, TI 15 Set, C12 Set, CT48 w/Boom Arm, HL850, RO90, RTS400, DTS400, LS130, DX93, RO150, ETS 150/3, RAS 115/4E, RS2E, Domino Classic, OF1010 EQ, OF2000E+, OF1400, MFS700, LR 32-SYS+97" rail, 2011 Centrotec, Zobo Forstner Bit Set, Guide Rail Kit, Parallel Guides, Tradesman Cleaning Set, Shinex, lotsa 'tainers (Sorts, Attics, Classic, New and Blue).
Coming Attractions: MFK700 Kit, Workcenter, Domino XL Kit, Carvex 420 & Accessory Kit
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Rick Christopherson
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Location: Central U.S. Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 736
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« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2012, 03:12 PM » |
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When the goal is to create the strongest joint, then you need to make sure that all aspects of strength are equal. In other words, you do not want to have a weak link in the chain. If you take away strength from one component to bolster another, then you create a weak link. The entire joint then becomes no stronger than the weak link. An example of this is discussed in the Domino DF500 Manual. If your tenon is harder/stronger than the substrate material, then you should reduce the thickness of the strong tenon to improve the strength of the soft substrate. Ideally, at failure, both the substrate and tenon would fail simultaneously. Another example I brought up a few posts above is regarding wide tenons. The wide tenon remains very strong, but the substrate of the wide mortise becomes very weak. Spreading the mortise/tenons out to leave a little webbing between them keeps all three components at a similar strength. The mortise is no longer the dramatic weak link. |
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John Stevens
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Ardmore, PA
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« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2012, 10:59 PM » |
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Did not get it either. Hi Victor. If the part you didn't understand was why I cared about floating vs traditional tenons, my concern was appearance, not strength. I'm satisfied that I can design any piece of furniture to be adequately strong for normal use with a floating tenon. That leaves as my only concern the oval cross-section of the domino rather than the rectangular cross-section of a traditional through-tenon. I prefer the appearance of a rectangular cross section, but not all that much, so I'm not sure whether I'll expend the time and effort to square the ends with a chisel and make my own rectangular tenon stock. (BTW, I'm not the biggest fan of James Krenov, but some of his furniture had through-tenons with oval cross-sections.) I guess I could have been a lot more clear about what I meant. After all, a traditional tenon can have an oval cross-section, and a floating tenon can have a rectangular cross section, even though they typically they don't. Sorry for your understandable confusion over my poor writing. Regards, John |
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What this world needs is a good retreat.
--Captain Beefheart
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Rembo
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« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2012, 02:39 PM » |
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I do not know to date device or machine that with such ease and precision will be able to raise the door of this design
in place of plywood will be glass. and the door anymore.
a small sample for the customer.
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Rembo
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« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2012, 02:50 PM » |
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another question, as not to allow the glue to come out ..
decided to do so.
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RussellS
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Location: USA Member Since: Nov 2011
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« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2012, 04:34 PM » |
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That leaves as my only concern the oval cross-section of the domino rather than the rectangular cross-section of a traditional through-tenon.
I prefer the appearance of a rectangular cross section, but not all that much, so I'm not sure whether I'll expend the time and effort to square the ends with a chisel and make my own rectangular tenon stock.
I'm sure its been mentioned before, but you can create fake through tenons if you use the Domino to make hidden loose tenons. Just rout and square up a small rectangle where the tenon would go through the piece. 1/8 to 1/4" deep is enough. Then glue in a thin piece of wood with end grain showing. Extra work to create the appearance of a through tenon. But likely easier than cutting a through tenon with the Domino and then trying to accurately square up the corners for a real square tenon to fit. |
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keithjfuji1439
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Location: Hockessin, DE, USA Member Since: Oct 2011
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« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2012, 09:18 AM » |
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That leaves as my only concern the oval cross-section of the domino rather than the rectangular cross-section of a traditional through-tenon.
I prefer the appearance of a rectangular cross section, but not all that much, so I'm not sure whether I'll expend the time and effort to square the ends with a chisel and make my own rectangular tenon stock.
I'm sure its been mentioned before, but you can create fake through tenons if you use the Domino to make hidden loose tenons. Just rout and square up a small rectangle where the tenon would go through the piece. 1/8 to 1/4" deep is enough. Then glue in a thin piece of wood with end grain showing. Extra work to create the appearance of a through tenon. But likely easier than cutting a through tenon with the Domino and then trying to accurately square up the corners for a real square tenon to fit. I'm building a Arts & Crafts style coffee table this week. I had originally planned all traditional through tenons, but when I got the XL I thought of using it and making false fronts for the through tenons. It's great to see I actually had a good idea that others have thought of too! |
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TS 55 EQ, OF 1400, Domino XL 700, RTS 400 EQ, RO 90 DX, RO 150 FEQ, MFT/3, Guide Rail 800, Guide Rail 1080, Guide Rail 1400(x2), Guide Rail 3000, Parallel Guide Set, LR32 Set, MFS 400, CT 26 E and all sorts of sundry little pieces...
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Oldwood
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Location: Alberta, Canada Member Since: Oct 2009
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Alberta, Canada
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« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2012, 10:37 AM » |
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I do not know to date device or machine that with such ease and precision will be able to raise the door of this design
in place of plywood will be glass. and the door anymore.
a small sample for the customer.
Rembo, That is a great idea!! The split rails would also allow you to pre-finish before installing the glass. Thanks Gerry |
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Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius
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