Author Topic: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?  (Read 9474 times)

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2018, 10:36 AM »
Hi Ron

I am going to borrow a CT VA from Festool UK. I assume that they are already in high demand and so my video may take a little while to come. I think that the key thing to remember with Festool kit is that they do their best to make new kit integrate with existing kit even it is just the ability to use the same hoses or fit one systainer on another.

An Oneida DD cyclone is going to be 300-400 mm from top to bottom for the 62 mm model. It appears that the Festool cyclone is going to be much flatter as it sits inside a systainer. I do not know if this will affect its efficiency but will try and report on this once I can play with one.

Peter

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Offline IndyMike

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2018, 10:41 AM »
I’ve already told my local dealer I want a cyclone and put my name on one. :-)
Mike

Offline Don Ware

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2018, 10:49 AM »
Yah I can do that. The clear bin on the CT Cyclone is 5.3 gallon and you can buy extra ether single or a three pack.
I can't do the video this weekend my wife has that all planed out for me. LOL !!!!
Don Ware
Anderson Plywood Sales
Culver City, California

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2018, 11:08 AM »
Recipe for performance test.

CT vac
CT Cyclone
Dust Deputy (identify style)
2 new main filters
2 new dust bags
Digital scale
Track saw
MDF

Weigh bags and dust bins

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach CT Cyclone
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach Dust Deputy
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Post results for smarter people than me to analyze

Offline M.András

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2018, 12:33 PM »
Recipe for performance test.

CT vac
CT Cyclone
Dust Deputy (identify style)
2 new main filters
2 new dust bags
Digital scale
Track saw
MDF

Weigh bags and dust bins

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach CT Cyclone
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach Dust Deputy
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Post results for smarter people than me to analyze

i would suggest testing it with mineral dust, brick or concrete, or just any powdered cement based product or gypsum in powder form, if that fine dust is separated fully and from a bucket worth of dust no discoloration can be seen inside the white bag then it can be considered good

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2018, 04:52 PM »
If these tests can be done then a group of typical tradesmen, who have to travel with their kit to a job site, need to be asked to vote on the better system not just based on any dust separation figures but also on the easy of use and portability. It may be that one system will be preferred even though it is 1% less effective at dust separation.

Peter

Offline Svar

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2018, 05:09 PM »
My educated guess on MDF dust collection: DD 99%, CT Cyclone 90%.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2018, 05:21 PM »
One thing I can say, Is this Cyclone has certainly sparked some interest. I havent seen this much interest in a new tool/accessory in quite a while.

Offline Don Ware

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2018, 06:17 PM »
If these tests can be done then a group of typical tradesmen, who have to travel with their kit to a job site, need to be asked to vote on the better system not just based on any dust separation figures but also on the easy of use and portability. It may be that one system will be preferred even though it is 1% less effective at dust separation.

Peter
Could not of said it better !!!!!!!!
Don Ware
Anderson Plywood Sales
Culver City, California

Offline Corwin

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2018, 06:40 PM »
The more tidy hose arrangement on Festool's new separator will be beneficial to those that use there tools in their shop too, not just those out in the field. There have been more than a few times that I wished that the hose going from the front of my CT up to the top of my early ClearVue cyclone was much less intrusive. Just saying'. It will be interesting to see a side-to-side comparison that addresses the various aspects of these 'cyclone' separators.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2018, 07:22 PM »
I bet even if the CT “Cyclone” is 10% less effective than the Dust Deputy it will still sell twice as many as the Ultimate Dust Deputy.

Offline Corwin

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2018, 11:53 PM »
I bet even if the CT “Cyclone” is 10% less effective than the Dust Deputy it will still sell twice as many as the Ultimate Dust Deputy.

I bet you're right.  [smile]
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline IndyMike

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2018, 01:37 PM »
One thing that looks nice is it looks like, if you wanted, you could still put another systainer on top of the Cyclone.  I imagine it'd become pain when you wanted to empty the bin - but doable none-the-less.
Mike

Offline Naildrivingman

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2018, 05:31 PM »
I have a UDD and it travels with me to my job sites. Generally, I am set up for a week or more on my sites, so my experience may not be as impactful to this discussion as those who set up multiple times per week.

Suffice to say, I don’t mind transporting my UDD vs the FT cyclone. From the pictures, the FT appears to be as bulky as the UDD, so for me that does not make a difference. I will say that the connection between the UDD tower and collection box does concern me, so I am careful when handling it.

At this point, the FT version would have to far outperform the UDD in order for me to buy it.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2018, 07:25 PM »
I have a UDD and it travels with me to my job sites. Generally, I am set up for a week or more on my sites, so my experience may not be as impactful to this discussion as those who set up multiple times per week.

Suffice to say, I don’t mind transporting my UDD vs the FT cyclone. From the pictures, the FT appears to be as bulky as the UDD, so for me that does not make a difference. I will say that the connection between the UDD tower and collection box does concern me, so I am careful when handling it.

At this point, the FT version would have to far outperform the UDD in order for me to buy it.

Somehow I think that the essentially Festool try it for yourself warranty (30 days here in NA but different in other parts of the world) will be a perfect situation.  I might be trying it myself.

Peter

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2018, 09:14 PM »
I already have the UDD too. Don’t think I’ll be able to justify replacing it with the CT Cyclone even if it performs better than the UDD, which is unlikely.

If I were buying my first Cyclone I think the CT version would be a no-brainer.

Offline Grakat

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2018, 02:01 AM »
I am just running the CT at this point in time, but I think the Festool separator would work well for me particularly when routing.

I think one consideration that needs to be taken into account is what people are using already. If you have the UDD you'll be unlikely to change but if you are in the market for a solution then the comparisons suggested above will bear more weight imho.
Regards
Graham

Festool ETS150/3, TS55, CT26, DF500+ Domino set, PS300, HKC55, RO150

Offline Don Ware

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2018, 02:53 PM »
I still don't have a Dust Deputy to test with. But in this video I vacuum up 25 pounds of saw dust then weigh the bag and cut it open to see what's inside
Don Ware
Anderson Plywood Sales
Culver City, California

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 06:38 PM »
Good job Don. That pretty much tells the story.

Offline Don Ware

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2018, 08:40 PM »
And if ANYONE in Los Angeles has a Dust deputy and want's to bring it by, I will make the time and do the same test with the same saw dust, Same CT Head to Head !!!! We all want to see it !!!!!
Don Ware
Anderson Plywood Sales
Culver City, California

Offline Kodi Crescent

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2018, 07:27 AM »
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2018, 07:46 AM »
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.

@Kodi Crescent there is a long life bag for the Midi - 499704

Peter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2018, 03:27 PM »
considering the rate of going through bags, I question the idea of the long life bag. I would prefer the dust filtration of the regular bags, switching them out at what will be a very slow rate.I am impressed with  this mass separator,  I have seen it in the flesh and seen it work.  The idea and pursuit of trying to get to 0 consumables I think has diminishing returns. I would actual warn against it, in any condition where filtering is concerned. One of the reason to use Festool Vacs is the high filtration rate. I only have one set of lungs and derating my filtration is not high on my list. The separation that these separators are able to preform makes the effective consumable cost very light. Almost a couple of bucks per bag, if that, if you calculate actual filling and separation.

Offline Kodi Crescent

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2018, 12:39 PM »
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.

@Kodi Crescent there is a long life bag for the Midi - 499704

Peter

Thank you!

Offline Kodi Crescent

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2018, 01:04 PM »
considering the rate of going through bags, I question the idea of the long life bag. I would prefer the dust filtration of the regular bags, switching them out at what will be a very slow rate.I am impressed with  this mass separator,  I have seen it in the flesh and seen it work.  The idea and pursuit of trying to get to 0 consumables I think has diminishing returns. I would actual warn against it, in any condition where filtering is concerned. One of the reason to use Festool Vacs is the high filtration rate. I only have one set of lungs and derating my filtration is not high on my list. The separation that these separators are able to preform makes the effective consumable cost very light. Almost a couple of bucks per bag, if that, if you calculate actual filling and separation.

I'll accept your point.  If I were sanding lead-based paint or something else with a greater health concern, or I was doing this for a living, I may not choose to use the long-life bag.  With my Midi, I'm primarily sanding drywall.  I haven't looked up any health effects related to drywall dust.  When sanding drywall, I get about a half a cloth bag's worth of use before the suction drops off.  Replacing Midi bags at half-full isn't very cost-effective at $5+ per bag. 

I wear a respirator with dust cartridges during this operation anyhow, as there isn't an effective way to capture all the errant dust. If I don't wear the respirator while sanding drywall I seem to end up with some malady such as Strep or Walking Pneumonia a couple weeks later.  So this has become SOP for me during this operation.

Otherwise, I'm primarily pulling in sawdust while cutting or from shop clean up.  I have a ready-made spot for stowing my CT-26 that allows me to use it unobtrusively.  I don't have room for add-ons like a cyclone.  It's nice to be able to use it, and then take it out and clean up tools and the shop, then dump the bag contents into the trash without an extra cost or worry about having a replacement bag.

Something also not mentioned, the Hose/Systainer garages on the vacuums aren't very durable and deteriorate over time.  One good spill down a few steps busted my Midi garage beyond use or repair.  Pulling one of my other vacuums out from storage tore a chunk off of another one.  The cyclone becomes a lot less convenient when that happens.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2018, 01:54 PM »
I think that the point that @tallgrass is making is that any bag, whether normal throw away or long life, will eventually get clogged. In the case of the disposable bag that does not matter but with a long life bag it is the end of an expensive journey. Perhaps a long life bag can go in the washing machine or go through some process to de-clog it !

The normal Festool Clenatec bags are really good as they keep filtering until the very end. I cannot image how drywall/plaster dust can go into a long life bag and not degrade its performance even after being carefully emptied.

I am quite happy to be proved wrong but has anybody actually done a thorough test of a long life bag?

Peter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2018, 02:15 PM »
I understand that drywall dust and such are not a concern. however why breath it in the first place? Let us say an average bag has a replacement cost of 15 dollars. The separation that the mass separator provides is easily 50-1, from what I have seen. I have seen the one running at Anderson plywood. With this attached the actual cost per hour of operation is reduced by easily 2 orders of magnitude. I understand that costs are always a concern. not everyone is a "professional".
However we all have lungs. This mass separator makes the effective bag cost, what $15 divided 50?  It turns the bag effectively into a timed replacement component. Much like the hepa filters. What, should we replace those with gym socks, we don't really need those. ,, joking. I have a shop vack from "home cheapo " for that. We can all decide how and what we pay for. I pay for top drawer safety equipment, eyes and ears and so on. I can't afford to try to replace those.

Offline Gregor

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2018, 05:07 PM »
Problem with drywall dust is that moisture will turn the sanded plaster particles (that sit in or infront of the pores of the bag) into mud - and you'll pull plenty of air (that is more or less moist) through the filter. Apart from that special property of plaster: clogging is mainly caused by the fine particles, exactly the fraction which the mass separator (compared to a cyclone) isn't that great at. So for sanding drywall an AC CT might be a good idea even when using the pre-separator.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2018, 09:11 PM »
A mass separator and a cyclonic separator are the same thing. it is the differential between the fluid "air" and the particles in the fluid. It is the angular velocity and deceleration relative to the flow of the fluid that makes these things work.. The "cyclone" is simply the means of creating the high energy environment thereby  creating the differential. The reason I simply say mass separator is that as the fluid density changes the "efficiency " changes. Dry wall dust is most likely the worst case for this type of device. Moisture that increases the density of the fluid and particles of irritatingly "negligible" mass. In the Lab where i work we use fluid vapor injection into the cyclone portion of the separator for the very reasons you mention. Though we are not dealing with dry wall dust but fine particles that behave frustratingly in the same fashion. we actually use dry wall dust and perfume to test the system. I have not seen a commercial unit that works this way. probably for good reason. Our separator generates toxic sludge that probably could kill cockroaches.

Offline Kodi Crescent

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Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2018, 10:56 PM »
It could be.