Festool Owners Group

FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool Tool Reviews => Topic started by: mcooley on August 27, 2018, 01:31 PM

Title: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: mcooley on August 27, 2018, 01:31 PM
Given the recent debate over the new Festool cyclone has anyone posted a side by side performance review yet? If Festool claims superior performance then why haven't they produced their own video? Anyhow curious to see how they perform side by side etc.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 27, 2018, 01:39 PM
They are not identical products so a direct comparison is not possible.

If dust collection is your only interest just go ahead and buy the Dust Deputy.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Mario Turcot on August 27, 2018, 01:48 PM
I believe both are to save bags replacement. Not sure if the Festool cyclone add to the suction but I doubt it. That being said the DD is more bulky and is a better fit in shop where the Festool cyclone would shine better on site.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: mcooley on August 27, 2018, 02:02 PM
A comparison would still be nice even if they aren't identical. Their prices are not identical either. So it would make sense to weigh both in a comprehensive way. I am sure someone will do it.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Corwin on August 27, 2018, 03:54 PM
They are not identical products so a direct comparison is not possible.

What??? This statement seems meaningless to me. One compares two or more DIFFERENT items. There simply isn't anything to compare with two identical items. What the heck???
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 27, 2018, 04:43 PM
They’re both nominally dust separators but one is designed to be portable and other not so much. Assuming they are equal at their primary function it’s their other features that would lead you to make a choice.

Assuming the Festool is not equal to the DD as a dust separator there are still plenty of people who will choose it over the DD just because it’s more portable, or just because it looks better, or just because you can lock Systainers on top, or just because it’s made by Festool.

To me the differences outweigh the similarity so they aren’t really comparable.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: usernumber1 on August 27, 2018, 05:44 PM
i think its a reasonable request, not sure why the hostility.

performance test is what is asked for - not convenience, or a myriad of reasons listed here why individuals are justifying the festool to themselves
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Mario Turcot on August 28, 2018, 06:50 AM
@usernumber1 Welcome to the FOG, I agree that there is no room for hostility. Personally I do not find the FOG community to be hostile nor aggressive. I see the community as a bunch of people a like that have a lot in commun.

Folks on FOG try to expose their experience with what they have and what they know. Sometimes a discussion can go off the subject but this is something that can happen on any discussion forum unfortunately. If people reply to a simple question with a simple answer, a good portion of those questions would have zero answer. Not being a psychologist, I know that the perception a person can have from a no reply to a simple question is reject. You rarely see that on the FOG hopefully  [big grin]

Now the OP question: I am willing to make a review and comparison between the Oneida DD (I own one) and the Festool Cyclone, if Festool USA want to sent me a unit  [cool] I have a CT-26 and would even buy a second one just for that  [wink]... well okay, I may need a second one  [embarassed]
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: six-point socket II on August 28, 2018, 07:49 AM
Hi!

I'm pretty sure, once the "usual suspects" get their hands on the CT Cyclone there will be plenty of reviews, tests, comparisons ...

Kind regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Halle on August 28, 2018, 08:57 AM
It would be interesting for a review to be done between the two units, but perhaps that review really needs to be done with some forward thinking about how the units are designed and intended.

The Festool unit is in my mind clearly intended for a wide variety of work but primarily for mobile situations.  The Dust Deputy is really more designed for stationary or mobile only in the same workspace (shop, garage, etc.)

Festool mentions that in conjunction with the approved CT's it will meet the silica guidelines here in the US.  There is no mention of that from Dust Deputy as far as I know.  This would indicate to me that the design of the Festool product was more towards the portability needs of the carpenter / contractor who operates primarily outside of a semi-static environment.

I don't believe that these two products can be objectively compared on an apple to apple basis just like a standard big box circular saw can not be objectively compared to a track saw from any manufacturer.  They may do the same thing (cut wood) but their intended purposes are ultimately different as well as their setup and usage.

Just my thoughts.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Joe Felchlin on August 28, 2018, 09:47 AM
Peter: I agree with you.
The two products are “aimed” at two different market segments.
Ergo... Though they invariably will be compared - It’ll be an “apples and oranges” comparison.
One needs to view Festool’s new Separator in light of Festool’s continuing business model and market focus - Which is primarily the “on site” tradesman.
The entirety of their product line has always been dedicated to “portability” (even the fold-up MFT’s).
The “woodworking” segment of the tool business is minor in comparison to the potential/actual construction trade segment.

Given that consideration, neat as their new Separator is, other than the space saving “stackability” atop a Festool Dust Extractor - I, as a “workshop” woodworker - Won’t be inclined to trade my Dust Deputies in for this new product, neat as it apparently seems to be.
Were I an “on site” tradesman - Moving my tools/equipment about regularly - I be “chomping at the bit”, awaiting its availability.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Vondawg on August 28, 2018, 10:21 AM
I agree with both peter and joe...and think even a small shop, woodshop woodworker, could find the space saving advantage of placing a 26 and new cyclone under a MFT for example (not with the optional clear bucket) as it looks like it would fit
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 28, 2018, 01:58 PM
I think I'm going to add the CT Cyclone CT-VA-20 to my wish list for Christmas... I don't have a Dust Deputy or I'd do a comparison once I got the Cyclone.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: usernumber1 on August 28, 2018, 07:30 PM
what i'm noticing is the defense of festool cyclone as if there's a bias that it might not perform as well as DT .
there's a possibility that the DT does not perform anywhere near the CT cyclone does. that would be very interesting.


thanks for the welcome!

Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Halle on August 28, 2018, 07:51 PM
what i'm noticing is the defense of festool cyclone as if there's a bias that it might not perform as well as DT .
there's a possibility that the DT does not perform anywhere near the CT cyclone does. that would be very interesting.


thanks for the welcome!

I hope my post didn't help you come to your conclusion.  My post encouraged a comparison but mentioned that the two items were not direct competitors.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 28, 2018, 07:57 PM
I’m sure I’ll be happy with the cyclone but if somebody wants to send me a DT I’ll be happy to compare them when I get a cyclone. :-P
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: rmhinden on August 28, 2018, 08:18 PM
I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the two as well.   We have lots of other comparison videos, this would be useful.

Price wise the Festool one is a bit more expensive ($375 vs. $299), but not so much difference that I would pick one over the other based on price alone.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: pettyconstruction on August 28, 2018, 08:22 PM
As a mobile Reno contractor, I am not sure the CT version or the DD one is for me.
I like the idea of pulling the bag out and tossing it without the added dust from dumping a canister/systainer.
I currently don’t have either, so maybe I don’t know what I’m missing.
Charlie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on August 29, 2018, 11:13 AM
I've made two video's on the CT Cyclone on you-tube for Anderson Plywood,
I have the CT Cyclone but I don't have a Dust Deputy............
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 29, 2018, 11:17 AM
I've made two video's on the CT Cyclone on you-tube for Anderson Plywood,
I have the CT Cyclone but I don't have a Dust Deputy............
I have to wait until October to get my hands on one :(.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 29, 2018, 11:50 AM
As a mobile Reno contractor, I am not sure the CT version or the DD one is for me.
I like the idea of pulling the bag out and tossing it without the added dust from dumping a canister/systainer.
I currently don’t have either, so maybe I don’t know what I’m missing.
Charlie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Pretty sure you can line the clear container with a bag.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 29, 2018, 12:08 PM
Re performance comments, it’s pretty clear from the comments of people knowledgeable about cyclonic separators, the truncated form of the Festool CT Cyclone will not be as efficient as a Dust Deputy. But Don Ware’s tests indicated that it’s still pretty good. Better than he expected.

Base your buying decision on whatever features are important to you.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 29, 2018, 12:25 PM
Re performance comments, it’s pretty clear from the comments of people knowledgeable about cyclonic separators, the truncated form of the Festool CT Cyclone will not be as efficient as a Dust Deputy. But Don Ware’s tests indicated that it’s still pretty good. Better than he expected.

Base your buying decision on whatever features are important to you.
From just looking at it - I'd have to guess from a form dictates function standpoint - that it wouldn't be as effective.

Honestly my goal would be to be able to see when I need to empty it [clear container].  That alone I think makes it worth it :P.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: jobsworth on August 29, 2018, 12:39 PM
>>Honestly my goal would be to be able to see when I need to empty it [clear container].  That alone I think makes it worth it :P.<<

It is for me to. I went to Anderson plywoodlast week as they had a festool demo day there. I got to see the cyclone being used first hand. The fest tool rep used both a sander and a TS 55 to demonstrate the cyclones ability to collect dust.
It worked pretty darn good. Plus for me the ability se how full the bin is ( I always fuill mine to the point of the CT not sucking very hard to determine if its full or not) to just pop the top off and empty the the clear bin. I dont like having to seperate the halves of the CT 26 w boom arm assy which includes a handle). So popping the top off makes emptying it easy.

I already primed my kids to get me cyclone for my xmas present from them.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 29, 2018, 12:59 PM
I already primed my kids to get me cyclone for my xmas present from them.
My GF the other day said, "No more buying any tools!"

I was like, "What did you just say?"

She then said, "If you keep buying tools I won't have anything to get you for Christmas!"

I was in a bad marriage for nearly a decade where I made all of the money but wasn't 'allowed' to buy anything / get what I wanted - so for a moment I was like Wait, what? Excuse me?

That said - that wasn't the issue :).

Now I just need to drop the hint, a lot, about a Festool Cyclone haha.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: jobsworth on August 29, 2018, 08:51 PM
@IndyMike

The hint I dropped was I sent them a link to it and told them this is what I want for Xmas.

Usually by the time Xmas rolls around Ive bought myself everything thing I need/wanted. But this year I thought hey the kids are all working now so its my turn , Hey kids.......

Thyre good about it, they all pitch in 3 ways so its not bad. Then for my B-day theres that DF 500 connector set Ive been jonesing for....
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on August 29, 2018, 10:33 PM
@jobsworth
Hey buddie you deserve it, Your Good people !!!!!
And the 500 Domino connector's are so easy to use. The 700 Dominos are heavy duty. I've messed up moving the height of the fence and wrong depth...…… ( Just have to be smarter than a piece of wood …. ) The 500 with the drilling jig is hard to mess up. And the CT Cyclone you saw works great. I so like things that work like they should...….
Be good Buddie !!!!!!!!!! ( I'm sure Santa will have Goodies in your stocking )
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: jobsworth on August 29, 2018, 11:39 PM
@Don Ware

I got to use that 650mm rail yesterday. hehehehehe

yea Santa better get me that cyclone, Ill rip his beard out if he dont  [eek]
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on August 30, 2018, 02:58 AM
Given the recent debate over the new Festool cyclone has anyone posted a side by side performance review yet? If Festool claims superior performance then why haven't they produced their own video? Anyhow curious to see how they perform side by side etc.

I have not seen the Festool cyclone yet but have read the pre-release and current product description on the Festool web site.

Festool have been very honest about expected performance with different materials "...up to 80% mineral dust and 95% of coarse particles". I don't think that is claiming superior performance. I do not remember seeing any quantitative claims by Oneida.

My UDD performs really well with general woodworking tish but I have not tried it with mineral dust.

I somehow doubt whether anyone will measure the performance of these devices in order to check Festool's (modest) claim.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: jobsworth on August 31, 2018, 10:23 AM
@Peter Parfitt,

When I got to play with the cyclone at Anderson Plywood  the other day. I was impressed at the amount of dust it captured both fine sanding dust and dust collected from the TS55. Now the % of dust collected I have no Idea. But I was able to see the dust sucked into the clear bin and it impressed me to where Im going to get me one.

I really doubt if festool or Oneida will do a comparison. It would prolly have to come from a FOGGer who has one and borrows the other.

But personally I dont care. Bc the idea of being to see the bin being able to see that its full and just lifting it up and emptying it and easily putting it back is enough for me. Plus if I end up doing a large job I can either easily empty the full bin and cyclone and the CT bag. which inceases the overall storage capacity.

@Don Ware
Don would it be possible to make another video showing how this cyclone increases the storage capacity of the CT?

That would be great.

Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on August 31, 2018, 10:36 AM
Hi Ron

I am going to borrow a CT VA from Festool UK. I assume that they are already in high demand and so my video may take a little while to come. I think that the key thing to remember with Festool kit is that they do their best to make new kit integrate with existing kit even it is just the ability to use the same hoses or fit one systainer on another.

An Oneida DD cyclone is going to be 300-400 mm from top to bottom for the 62 mm model. It appears that the Festool cyclone is going to be much flatter as it sits inside a systainer. I do not know if this will affect its efficiency but will try and report on this once I can play with one.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on August 31, 2018, 10:41 AM
I’ve already told my local dealer I want a cyclone and put my name on one. :-)
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on August 31, 2018, 10:49 AM
Yah I can do that. The clear bin on the CT Cyclone is 5.3 gallon and you can buy extra ether single or a three pack.
I can't do the video this weekend my wife has that all planed out for me. LOL !!!!
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 31, 2018, 11:08 AM
Recipe for performance test.

CT vac
CT Cyclone
Dust Deputy (identify style)
2 new main filters
2 new dust bags
Digital scale
Track saw
MDF

Weigh bags and dust bins

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach CT Cyclone
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach Dust Deputy
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Post results for smarter people than me to analyze
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: M.András on August 31, 2018, 12:33 PM
Recipe for performance test.

CT vac
CT Cyclone
Dust Deputy (identify style)
2 new main filters
2 new dust bags
Digital scale
Track saw
MDF

Weigh bags and dust bins

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach CT Cyclone
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Install new main filter and bag in CT vac
Attach Dust Deputy
Make 20 long rips in MDF
Weigh bin and bag to find net weight of debris in each

Post results for smarter people than me to analyze

i would suggest testing it with mineral dust, brick or concrete, or just any powdered cement based product or gypsum in powder form, if that fine dust is separated fully and from a bucket worth of dust no discoloration can be seen inside the white bag then it can be considered good
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on August 31, 2018, 04:52 PM
If these tests can be done then a group of typical tradesmen, who have to travel with their kit to a job site, need to be asked to vote on the better system not just based on any dust separation figures but also on the easy of use and portability. It may be that one system will be preferred even though it is 1% less effective at dust separation.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Svar on August 31, 2018, 05:09 PM
My educated guess on MDF dust collection: DD 99%, CT Cyclone 90%.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: jobsworth on August 31, 2018, 05:21 PM
One thing I can say, Is this Cyclone has certainly sparked some interest. I havent seen this much interest in a new tool/accessory in quite a while.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on August 31, 2018, 06:17 PM
If these tests can be done then a group of typical tradesmen, who have to travel with their kit to a job site, need to be asked to vote on the better system not just based on any dust separation figures but also on the easy of use and portability. It may be that one system will be preferred even though it is 1% less effective at dust separation.

Peter
Could not of said it better !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Corwin on August 31, 2018, 06:40 PM
The more tidy hose arrangement on Festool's new separator will be beneficial to those that use there tools in their shop too, not just those out in the field. There have been more than a few times that I wished that the hose going from the front of my CT up to the top of my early ClearVue cyclone was much less intrusive. Just saying'. It will be interesting to see a side-to-side comparison that addresses the various aspects of these 'cyclone' separators.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on August 31, 2018, 07:22 PM
I bet even if the CT “Cyclone” is 10% less effective than the Dust Deputy it will still sell twice as many as the Ultimate Dust Deputy.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Corwin on August 31, 2018, 11:53 PM
I bet even if the CT “Cyclone” is 10% less effective than the Dust Deputy it will still sell twice as many as the Ultimate Dust Deputy.

I bet you're right.  [smile]
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: IndyMike on September 01, 2018, 01:37 PM
One thing that looks nice is it looks like, if you wanted, you could still put another systainer on top of the Cyclone.  I imagine it'd become pain when you wanted to empty the bin - but doable none-the-less.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Naildrivingman on September 01, 2018, 05:31 PM
I have a UDD and it travels with me to my job sites. Generally, I am set up for a week or more on my sites, so my experience may not be as impactful to this discussion as those who set up multiple times per week.

Suffice to say, I don’t mind transporting my UDD vs the FT cyclone. From the pictures, the FT appears to be as bulky as the UDD, so for me that does not make a difference. I will say that the connection between the UDD tower and collection box does concern me, so I am careful when handling it.

At this point, the FT version would have to far outperform the UDD in order for me to buy it.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Halle on September 01, 2018, 07:25 PM
I have a UDD and it travels with me to my job sites. Generally, I am set up for a week or more on my sites, so my experience may not be as impactful to this discussion as those who set up multiple times per week.

Suffice to say, I don’t mind transporting my UDD vs the FT cyclone. From the pictures, the FT appears to be as bulky as the UDD, so for me that does not make a difference. I will say that the connection between the UDD tower and collection box does concern me, so I am careful when handling it.

At this point, the FT version would have to far outperform the UDD in order for me to buy it.

Somehow I think that the essentially Festool try it for yourself warranty (30 days here in NA but different in other parts of the world) will be a perfect situation.  I might be trying it myself.

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on September 01, 2018, 09:14 PM
I already have the UDD too. Don’t think I’ll be able to justify replacing it with the CT Cyclone even if it performs better than the UDD, which is unlikely.

If I were buying my first Cyclone I think the CT version would be a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Grakat on September 02, 2018, 02:01 AM
I am just running the CT at this point in time, but I think the Festool separator would work well for me particularly when routing.

I think one consideration that needs to be taken into account is what people are using already. If you have the UDD you'll be unlikely to change but if you are in the market for a solution then the comparisons suggested above will bear more weight imho.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on September 16, 2018, 02:53 PM
I still don't have a Dust Deputy to test with. But in this video I vacuum up 25 pounds of saw dust then weigh the bag and cut it open to see what's inside http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeihbzUhKlU&t=154s
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on September 16, 2018, 06:38 PM
Good job Don. That pretty much tells the story.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Don Ware on September 16, 2018, 08:40 PM
And if ANYONE in Los Angeles has a Dust deputy and want's to bring it by, I will make the time and do the same test with the same saw dust, Same CT Head to Head !!!! We all want to see it !!!!!
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Kodi Crescent on September 29, 2018, 07:27 AM
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Halle on September 29, 2018, 07:46 AM
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.

@Kodi Crescent there is a long life bag for the Midi - 499704

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on September 29, 2018, 03:27 PM
considering the rate of going through bags, I question the idea of the long life bag. I would prefer the dust filtration of the regular bags, switching them out at what will be a very slow rate.I am impressed with  this mass separator,  I have seen it in the flesh and seen it work.  The idea and pursuit of trying to get to 0 consumables I think has diminishing returns. I would actual warn against it, in any condition where filtering is concerned. One of the reason to use Festool Vacs is the high filtration rate. I only have one set of lungs and derating my filtration is not high on my list. The separation that these separators are able to preform makes the effective consumable cost very light. Almost a couple of bucks per bag, if that, if you calculate actual filling and separation.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Kodi Crescent on October 01, 2018, 12:39 PM
I had a DD for the Festool Vacs.  It tipped over during assembly and the top of the cyclone cracked severely before the first use.  Oneida wouldn't warranty it and said too bad for me.  Woodcraft did allow me to return it for a refund. 

I used the money from the return to buy a Festool Long-Life bag for my CT-26.  Very happy with that purchase.  I wish they made one for the Midi.

@Kodi Crescent there is a long life bag for the Midi - 499704

Peter

Thank you!
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Kodi Crescent on October 01, 2018, 01:04 PM
considering the rate of going through bags, I question the idea of the long life bag. I would prefer the dust filtration of the regular bags, switching them out at what will be a very slow rate.I am impressed with  this mass separator,  I have seen it in the flesh and seen it work.  The idea and pursuit of trying to get to 0 consumables I think has diminishing returns. I would actual warn against it, in any condition where filtering is concerned. One of the reason to use Festool Vacs is the high filtration rate. I only have one set of lungs and derating my filtration is not high on my list. The separation that these separators are able to preform makes the effective consumable cost very light. Almost a couple of bucks per bag, if that, if you calculate actual filling and separation.

I'll accept your point.  If I were sanding lead-based paint or something else with a greater health concern, or I was doing this for a living, I may not choose to use the long-life bag.  With my Midi, I'm primarily sanding drywall.  I haven't looked up any health effects related to drywall dust.  When sanding drywall, I get about a half a cloth bag's worth of use before the suction drops off.  Replacing Midi bags at half-full isn't very cost-effective at $5+ per bag. 

I wear a respirator with dust cartridges during this operation anyhow, as there isn't an effective way to capture all the errant dust. If I don't wear the respirator while sanding drywall I seem to end up with some malady such as Strep or Walking Pneumonia a couple weeks later.  So this has become SOP for me during this operation.

Otherwise, I'm primarily pulling in sawdust while cutting or from shop clean up.  I have a ready-made spot for stowing my CT-26 that allows me to use it unobtrusively.  I don't have room for add-ons like a cyclone.  It's nice to be able to use it, and then take it out and clean up tools and the shop, then dump the bag contents into the trash without an extra cost or worry about having a replacement bag.

Something also not mentioned, the Hose/Systainer garages on the vacuums aren't very durable and deteriorate over time.  One good spill down a few steps busted my Midi garage beyond use or repair.  Pulling one of my other vacuums out from storage tore a chunk off of another one.  The cyclone becomes a lot less convenient when that happens.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Peter Parfitt on October 01, 2018, 01:54 PM
I think that the point that @tallgrass is making is that any bag, whether normal throw away or long life, will eventually get clogged. In the case of the disposable bag that does not matter but with a long life bag it is the end of an expensive journey. Perhaps a long life bag can go in the washing machine or go through some process to de-clog it !

The normal Festool Clenatec bags are really good as they keep filtering until the very end. I cannot image how drywall/plaster dust can go into a long life bag and not degrade its performance even after being carefully emptied.

I am quite happy to be proved wrong but has anybody actually done a thorough test of a long life bag?

Peter
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on October 01, 2018, 02:15 PM
I understand that drywall dust and such are not a concern. however why breath it in the first place? Let us say an average bag has a replacement cost of 15 dollars. The separation that the mass separator provides is easily 50-1, from what I have seen. I have seen the one running at Anderson plywood. With this attached the actual cost per hour of operation is reduced by easily 2 orders of magnitude. I understand that costs are always a concern. not everyone is a "professional".
However we all have lungs. This mass separator makes the effective bag cost, what $15 divided 50?  It turns the bag effectively into a timed replacement component. Much like the hepa filters. What, should we replace those with gym socks, we don't really need those. ,, joking. I have a shop vack from "home cheapo " for that. We can all decide how and what we pay for. I pay for top drawer safety equipment, eyes and ears and so on. I can't afford to try to replace those.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Gregor on October 01, 2018, 05:07 PM
Problem with drywall dust is that moisture will turn the sanded plaster particles (that sit in or infront of the pores of the bag) into mud - and you'll pull plenty of air (that is more or less moist) through the filter. Apart from that special property of plaster: clogging is mainly caused by the fine particles, exactly the fraction which the mass separator (compared to a cyclone) isn't that great at. So for sanding drywall an AC CT might be a good idea even when using the pre-separator.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on October 01, 2018, 09:11 PM
A mass separator and a cyclonic separator are the same thing. it is the differential between the fluid "air" and the particles in the fluid. It is the angular velocity and deceleration relative to the flow of the fluid that makes these things work.. The "cyclone" is simply the means of creating the high energy environment thereby  creating the differential. The reason I simply say mass separator is that as the fluid density changes the "efficiency " changes. Dry wall dust is most likely the worst case for this type of device. Moisture that increases the density of the fluid and particles of irritatingly "negligible" mass. In the Lab where i work we use fluid vapor injection into the cyclone portion of the separator for the very reasons you mention. Though we are not dealing with dry wall dust but fine particles that behave frustratingly in the same fashion. we actually use dry wall dust and perfume to test the system. I have not seen a commercial unit that works this way. probably for good reason. Our separator generates toxic sludge that probably could kill cockroaches.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Kodi Crescent on October 01, 2018, 10:56 PM
It could be.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Steve1 on October 02, 2018, 10:13 AM
By bet is going to be on the Festool cyclone.   A cyclone separator size needs to be matched to the airflow going through it.   As I recall, all the Festool CT vacuums use the same motor/blower, so Festool should be well matched. 
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on October 02, 2018, 01:57 PM
matching airflow is the prime consideration. I really would be surprised is there is any real world difference in the "efficiency" in these separators. They work very well practically, They are a good addition to the festool ecosystem.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Gregor on October 03, 2018, 04:04 AM
I really would be surprised is there is any real world difference in the "efficiency" in these separators.
I really would be surprised if there wouldn't be any real world differences in "efficiency".

Here (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/equipment.cfm#Separators) some background information on the reasoning behind my expectation.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on October 04, 2018, 01:37 AM
Quote from: tallgrass on October 02, 2018, 12:57 PM
I really would be surprised is there is any real world difference in the "efficiency" in these separators.
I really would be surprised if there wouldn't be any real world differences in "efficiency".

Here some background information on the reasoning behind my expectation.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:13 AM by Gregor »


That is very interesting. Fairly straight forward boiler plate information. Very informative if one is looking into these and trying to understand how they work.

However what is over looked in your source material is that these are not real integrated systems. What we are discussing here is not an integrated system that is engineered to meet certain specifications. What were are looking on is a an augmentation to an existing vacuum, or dust extraction system. These systems are not going to be used in an optimized environment. As such they are a general solution.  The one advantage that Festool has is that their system is designed to operate with a given set of dust extractors. This will allow the appropriate design that matches their machine specs. This is in contrast to the dust deputy that has to work within a range of possible dust extractors. Which they do quite ably. 

I am not suggesting that there will not be differences in efficiency, rather that the nature of their utilization will not render these differences meaningfully noticeable. What is more, how is the end user going to appreciate or even notice this? What will the nature of this increase or decrease represent in a mixed bag of saw dust and shop crud? Considering that a truly optimized solution is optimized to deal with a particular environment. None are magnificent across all condition.

I understand the  consequences in the industrial environment. Where specifications of performance can be measured and adjusted for. In the portable environment the design is so compromised In favor of size that I truly think there are to many variables in play to really fuss over. For example, simple humidity variations could cause issues depending on what separated. Sanding vs sawing, the mass differential alone their would be an issue, if one was hunting for a "%" of efficiency. .The physics of these separators limits what can be achieved. How would you even translate a 5% variation?I am an engineer, I get going down the rabbit whole of the math and theory.  In this case, however I think it is a forest for the trees. We are talking about bring the benefits of a separator to an existing ecosystem of extractors. I would bet the benefits far out way the the compromises. Pick the system that suits you and enjoy.

don't let this stop anyone from trying to quantify the efficiency across all work shop environments and dust extraction media. I would actually find it fascinating.  [big grin]
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Kodi Crescent on October 04, 2018, 09:04 AM
@tallgrass

I was going to ask if you were an engineer, then I got to the final paragraph.  What engineering field did you study?
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Vondawg on October 04, 2018, 12:40 PM
I’ve had the DD for Festool on my 26 for some time and have been really happy with it. I liked the new cyclone idea a lot and ordered one...received it and IT IS GREAT..one thing that jumps out with me is the compactness of it....no gangly hoses catching on stuff..still observing the difference between them but heck both work great. Been using a midi and a mini in the field and both seem to loose a bit of suction when the bags are @ 8o-85% full so I don’t get to fill them all the way....so....I installed the cyclone on and I think this is going to be the ticket for me on the road.
Sawing,routing &sanding so far are working really nice...haven’t checked the bag but everything seems to be in the bag/clear compartment, and I can plug an extra tool in the yellow three way cord and just dump the bin when full. And save on bags.
Note: there is nothing that holds/clamps the clear Bin in and it moved around a little, but a strip of foam mat (like non slip rug mat) firmed it up perfectly.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Michael Kellough on October 04, 2018, 12:50 PM
@Vomdawg. So you simply cut a hole in the back of the Mini hose garage so use the (otherwise too short) supplied hose? Well done and thanks for the review.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: tallgrass on October 04, 2018, 02:11 PM
Mechanical. It is a sickness. :) I have to remind myself..... " put the pencils down and step away from the bench. " What is worse is that I have my own machine shop. IT is easy to loose sight of improvements in search of incremental gains. The law of diminishing  returns should never be forgotten.  I actually thing when it comes to the festool separator the square shape may be a benefit. That will require more thought.
Title: Re: Dust Deputy vs CT Cyclone performance tests?
Post by: Gregor on October 05, 2018, 02:25 AM
Note: there is nothing that holds/clamps the clear Bin in and it moved around a little, but a strip of foam mat (like non slip rug mat) firmed it up perfectly.
That's one of the things I hate with that thing: It isn't integrated that well into the systainers as you can't one-hand lift it with a bin mounted (as the bottom will fall off) and handling the bin separate leads to it eating excessive amounts of space in the car.

The bins also seem to like building static charge (from what I have seen when unpacking one in my shop), leading them to attracting dust and small chips on the outside that contaminate the place you carry it toward.

Pricing... let's better not talk about that. Sufficient to say that I'm happy to not live in a country that allows price fixing.