Author Topic: Festool quality?  (Read 31043 times)

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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2017, 05:45 AM »
All you can assume is festool don't give a monkey's
What would be good if some people on here would stop talking nonsense about step down transformers etc as they have already demonstrated their lack of electrical knowledge.combined with the fact that they are on the payroll makes them so transparent.
Just buy from other manufacturers stop wasting your energy on the kapex.

Interesting comment,

I've been running my entire 110V shop on a 3.3 KV converter/ tranny for the past 4 years with out a problem.

That includes Kapex, OF 2200 in the CMS, TS 75 in the CMS, TS 55 on guide rails. All ran with either a 110v American Ct 22 or Ct 26
Mines are all US tools BTW.

Maybe I just have good luck.

Just returned the tranny to my buddy as I borrowed it from him when I got here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 05:56 AM by jobsworth »
Loving the Calif sun....

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Offline LJD

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2017, 06:09 AM »
I use the little 10.8 drill set. Thats lovely. But never found I wanted to buy a bigger  Festool drill. My dewalts thunder into stuff really well. And i have heard people really say the precision festool is not that great ?

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2017, 07:01 AM »
All you can assume is festool don't give a monkey's
What would be good if some people on here would stop talking nonsense about step down transformers etc as they have already demonstrated their lack of electrical knowledge.combined with the fact that they are on the payroll makes them so transparent.
Just buy from other manufacturers stop wasting your energy on the kapex.

I haven't seen any nonsense regarding transformers in this thread. There are people that are using under-rated/low-quality transformers and assuming the equipment they plug in to them should work without issue. Get a properly rated transformer for the equipment being run and be mindful of the voltage drop when using long cable lengths.

I do take exception to your accusation that members posting in this thread are on the Festool payroll. Provide some evidence or recant and apologise for your remark. I refer you to the forum guidelines relating to "Be nice, or don't post" and "No flaming or trolling".

If you do have some evidence, then I would suggest you PM a moderator and respectively remind the member of the forum guidelines relating to "Full disclosure".

Offline charley1968

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2017, 07:48 AM »
I think this is why Peter called it the 'slap the arse and watch it ripple'-thread. Why is it that all such threads end in bad blood? Everone has an opinion that's exactly as worthy as anyone elses.
If you think your opinion is closer to the truth, put forward arguments. Not more opinions on other members abilities, sources of income aso. Why are you doing this, @Festoolfootstool?
In the same vein: do you really care for an apology, @GarryMartin ?
I dunno, but i recommend closing this thread as it only leads to further recreminations between members. I think the real sheep on the FOG are the members who have to make a fight out of every controversity.
Just for today..

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2017, 07:58 AM »
In the same vein: do you really care for an apology, @GarryMartin ?

I see your point @charley1968 but in this case, I do care for a public apology because otherwise where do we draw the line on just ignoring something rather than setting the record straight? There are forum guidelines for a reason, and if they're not being observed, there are remedies that should be enforced.

But we all get a little too heated or frustrated sometimes, and post things that in retrospect we shouldn't have. We should give @Festoolfootstool the opportunity to consider his comments and remedy that situation should he choose to do so.


Offline charley1968

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2017, 08:06 AM »
Got it and i agree.
Just for today..

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2017, 08:33 AM »
I have to say that I agree with Gary and Charley on this.  Who exactly is on the Festool payroll that is dispensing transformer electrical knowledge that is incorrect?

This seems like just baiting to me and is not OK on FOG.

Seth


Offline Festoolfootstool

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2017, 08:44 AM »
Not interested in baiting anyone.im interested in keeping issues with the kapex as factual as possible,that's it.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2017, 08:46 AM »
OK, then lets all stay on the facts in this topic before it gets out of hand.

Seth

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2017, 10:48 AM »
All you can assume is festool don't give a monkey's
What would be good if some people on here would stop talking nonsense about step down transformers etc as they have already demonstrated their lack of electrical knowledge.combined with the fact that they are on the payroll makes them so transparent.
Just buy from other manufacturers stop wasting your energy on the kapex.


I am not so sure that anything in particular has been solidly determined about the Kapex issues. Whether it is small fast repetitive cuts. or something to do with power supply, or both, or something else, or nothing.

Not sure who you think is on the Festool payroll. The comments above make it look like you think someone is hiding the fact that they are being paid by Festool or hiding their affiliation with Festool.   Whether you intended that or not.   If you have an issue with the electrical information being presented that's fine, take issue with it. But can the slams.

This sort of taking veiled shots at people is not acceptable on this forum.


Seth

Offline antss

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2017, 11:53 AM »
"I am not so sure that anything in particular has been solidly determined about the Kapex issues. "

I think this is one of the issues that keeps negative publicity on Kapex at the top of the page. 

A year after an announcement that it was being looked into and we still have no resolution.   Not even a comment regarding progress.  That tries people's patience and is more than a reasonable amount of time to come up with something.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2017, 12:25 PM »

A year after an announcement that it was being looked into and we still have no resolution.   Not even a comment regarding progress. 


I think it would be a reasonable assumption that within a year's passage of time, both a progress report and a final cause determination or Kapex product use advisory report could be released.  [scratch chin]  [scratch chin]

However, these reports don't even start the clock if a product recall/update is Festool's preferred direction going forwards.  [eek]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 10:26 AM by Cheese »

Offline Dan1210

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2017, 01:32 PM »
Bought the new version of ts55 to replace a 10yr old version, imo the new one is not as good, the motor died on me within a year and i dont even push it hard, my old model cut wet joists and still soldiered on. With the old version i could happily cut timber worktop joints square everytime, the new model i cannot rely on so its always the router now.

My kapex 110v also died on me using a 3.3k transformer while cutting 8x2 joists, im very careful with it now and hardly ever cut anything other than trim and thin boards with it.

I was considering the maffell to replace the ts55 but i really value the plug it system.
Festooligan since 2006

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2017, 05:55 AM »
...
I was considering the maffell to replace the ts55 but i really value the plug it system.

A descent electrictian can put a "plug it" on, and they sell the plug-it assembly in the UK I think.

A somewhat better option is to put a "Neutrix TrueOne Powercon" on a cord and use that or... that cord on another compete hose.

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2017, 06:27 AM »
I have a neutrik cord and plug on my Erika. So much better than traditional because of the twist locking water proof seal it makes.

Offline Naildrivingman

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2017, 04:55 AM »
The only knowledge I have about the Kapex problems is what I've read on this thread, so my apologies up front if I don't cover all the specifics. My comments here are based on what is contained in this thread only.

The transformer issue:  I've never needed one, but I would never trust a transformer bought at a big box store vs one purchased at a reputable electrical supply company.  Accessories must be of a quality that meets or exceeds the quality of the tool it augments, especially if that accessory's failure could compromise the tool it enhances.

The extension cord issue:  I exclusively use 12 gauge cords for all my activity whether I run a 4 amp tool or a 15 amp tool. I also try to limit the length to 25'.

The Kapex quick cut issue:  I don't know what this means exactly. Does it mean repetitive cuts with the motor constantly running or is the saw being started and stopped with each cut?  I have done rabbets and dados with other saws in a state of constant on and those motors got pretty warm. I have also done quick chops with the motor starting and stopping, which also made the motor pretty warm.  Personally, I don't think either activity is an appraise use of the tool. Yes, it can be done; but should it be done?

If the number of problems were small, then I would look at how the tool was used. If the number is higher, then I would look at how the tool was manufactured.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Dance with who brung ya...

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2017, 01:04 PM »
On instagram Dave Reinhold's second Kapex blew up and MK Holdings blew.  Two in one week that I know about.  Still no response from Festool!

Offline SouthRider

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2017, 08:49 PM »
I'm in the local woodworkers guild, and a friend approached me for buying advice because he knows I'm a festaholic.

He was about to order a Kapex for his shop. I talked him into the big Bosch Glide saw instead.

This is causing Festool business.

Offline Gregor

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2017, 12:03 PM »
This is causing Festool business.
Sounds more like it is costing them business.

Offline SouthRider

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2017, 11:39 AM »
Yup - thanx autocorrect....

Offline holtpreston

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2017, 01:50 PM »
I'm another owner of a burnt up Kapex. Woodcraft is taking care of me and sending it off for repair as well as letting me use their demo Kapex in the mean time. I'm really considering selling it when it gets back.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2017, 07:06 PM »
I'm another owner of a burnt up Kapex. Woodcraft is taking care of me and sending it off for repair as well as letting me use their demo Kapex in the mean time. I'm really considering selling it when it gets back.

I would use it until the warranty is up and sell it.  Or sell it now and re coop as much as cash as possible.   Either way sell it!  Festool is not doing or saying anything to reassure it current customers or future customers for the kapex. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2017, 01:38 PM »
All of these recent Kapex updates are sadly just more fuel for this tragic, many years long, Kapex inferno.  [dead horse] [dead horse]

Time was, when individual Kapex owners would grudgingly post their mitre saw issues on the FOG, but they did so with the intent of making others aware of the problems along with hoping that their newly offered awareness may prompt Festool Corporate into investigating the Kapex issues and ultimately fix the problems. That was the norm then...but still nothing happened.  [mad]

The "nothing happened" part then slowly became like an abscess and gave us the new norm, which is that average Festoolians, that used to encourage engagement with Festool customer service, have become so incensed with Festool's lack of leadership on this Kapex issue, that they are now actively engaging and imploring fellow friends & woodworkers to purchase any competing manufacturer's mitre saw over the Kapex and encouraging friends & woodworkers to sell their Kapex to anyone, before it takes a dump. This is a lock-step change in attitudes and Festool Corporate should seriously reflect on what this attitudinal change means for their future business model. [tongue]

This weekend I made 70-80 "small repetitive cuts" while trimming some Jatoba HVAC vents to fit the existing oak/maple floor openings. Every time I pulled the trigger and heard the Kapex spool up, instead of having thoughts of how enjoyable the Kapex is to use, I kept hoping that the cut wouldn't end in a puff of white smoke.  [scared]

So...over the years, even my attitude has changed because of the Kapex debacle. However, it doesn't have to be like this and Festool could change this attitudinal shift if they decided to put their "big boy pants on" and just do the right thing. A good place to start is by directing Engineering resources to resolve the Kapex motor issues rather than squandering the Engineering resources on designing a new twist-lock connecter for the vacuum hose.  [eek] [eek]


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2017, 02:04 PM »
I do not worry about my 5 year old Kapex, even though I paid the "fixed" price for it then rather than the opportunity for discounts that we have now.

I use it every day, am often in a hurry as I am going from one video prep to another. I admit that it is not hit as hard as a machine in a busy commercial shop but I have seen those and they are no different than mine.

I cannot even guess at the number of Kapex sold over the last 3 years - some dealers might give a hint at their figures, Festool cannot give such commercially sensitive information away but I bet it is in the many tens of thousands of machines. Anyone in that period with a faulty motor can get it fixed - I accept that there will be some anecdotes about either lost emails, lost parcels or unanswered phone calls but the numbers are not enough to dissuade anyone from just evaluating the saw on its merits and making up their own mind.

Those with machines out of the 3 year "all inclusive" period with faults may just be the victims of bad luck. How many are there? Are their numbers so statistically significant?

I know that people with a machine that has failed will feel aggrieved and can justify making a fuss here or elsewhere but we need to make sure that the facts do not get exaggerated or misrepresented by others who have not had the experience themselves.

I would have no hesitation in replacing my current Kapex with a new one if it failed.

Peter

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2017, 02:48 PM »
Peter

WORD
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2017, 05:35 PM »
...I cannot even guess at the number of Kapex sold over the last 3 years ...

Those with machines out of the 3 year "all inclusive" period with faults may just be the victims of bad luck. How many are there? Are their numbers so statistically significant?

... I know that people with a machine that has failed will feel aggrieved and can justify making a fuss here or elsewhere...

People are well skilled in holding beliefs that are not based upon evidence, but in this case we have some anecdotal evidence that there is a problem.

ˆCorrectˆ...
- We have no statistical basis for the total numbers and the failure numbers.
- Whether the machines are burning up or not, there is now a perception that it is 'a quality issue' that is the cause of these failures...
- Whether or not the failures are statistically significant has also not been presented.

Basically no evidence has been presented that the saws are good and well designed in the motor department. Evidence should be easy to accomplish if the manufacture wanted to do so.
For instance they could provide the statistical '% of failure' over time...

So we have a bunch of users complaining that there is a problem with seeming believable stories of multiple failures.
And we have the manufacture that is not countering these claims in any meaningful way, other than a survey a year ago.

On the surface of it most people assume that where there is smoke there is fire.
And there is also confirmation bias the other way where we want to believe that what we paid for was a wise decision, and defence of the quality of their tools.

I am an evidence and numbers guy, and I have not seen a lot of proof that the saw is good... But like Fox Mulder's office poster, "I want to believe".

Offline antss

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 05:52 PM »
Peter - I know we're on opposites sides of this view, and I can see your side.

You are not as exposed because your saw is 220v and those have very few problems associated with them motor wise. And you really like some of the features.

But if you'll put yourself in my shoes for a second with a 110v saw........

The ones that do have motor problems that get mentioned here and elsewhere.  If they sell tens of thousands of these ( which I doubt, but maybe - 1000 saws X 10 years is possible.  So perhaps as a total #sold).   My point is , I don't think it's as many 110v saws as you think it is.  Making the % of early deaths more significant.

The ones that have a history of crapping out during AND after warranty.

Putting my $1600 or 1200£ at risk for a saw that has KNOWN and REPEATIVE failure that hasn't been addressed is asking more than many people want to gamble or chalk up to "bad luck" as you say.

The very high cost premium for kapex doesn't really warrant the risk for the few features it brings. Coupled with the blade availability in NA and the buy in gets even steeper for something that doesn't have a rock solid quality reputation.  Deserved or not , and Festool has done little or nothing to calm the fears. 

No one questions Porter Cable's 75xx routers for being workhorses and able to last decades in production environments.  Ditto with Makitas mitersaws.  And those examples aren't their company's highest priced tools or even the most expensive in their class - which kapex is.

That's what most here in NA are bitchin about.  Features are nice, but you have to build something that lasts if you want to command high prices.   The number of failures is "statistically significant" when it's my $1600 and year four rolls around.  Most buyers can't or won't choose to afford a roughly $500 capital expenditure EVERY year for the rest of their lives to ensure they have a working and warranted kapex. 

Kinda like Range Rovers : great vehicles until the warranty expires. But if you want something you can DEPEND on long term you buy a LandCruiser.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 06:02 PM by antss »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 06:15 PM »
@antss , Just curious - but it does add to the discussion - Do you own one or more Kapex in your successful business or personally?

Peter
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline antss

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 07:39 PM »
Not anymore , I got rid of it for a variety of reasons.    ::) 

My pops still has the one I bought him.  At the time, it was the only model that could be placed against a wall.  It gets used about 5 times a year.

I currently use a dewalt, milwaukee, craftsman, and a battery operated makita.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 08:45 PM »
It's sorta hard in my option for Festool to get an accurate failure rate bc people use their saws for different cuts,  professional vs hobby.  In my research the people that have the most issues are trim carpenters that use their saws all day long and making a lot of cuts.  Festools marketing says "Tools for the Toughest Demands".   That should mean that it will hold up to cuts all day long.  Festools silence is doing nothing but hurting them.  Arrogance in my option is the issue.