Author Topic: Festool quality?  (Read 30800 times)

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Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2017, 09:52 AM »
It's sorta hard in my option for Festool to get an accurate failure rate bc people use their saws for different cuts...

The rate is #-failed / time. They have the returns - so they would,know the rate.

The mechanism for failure may be related to how they are used, or maybe not... Who knows?
One needs some model of reality, and the science of failures and quality control has been pretty well understood for many decades.

If they wanted to understand it, they certainly could.
If they wanted to advertise what they understand, then they could.

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2017, 10:47 AM »
There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.

We FOGgers might share the odd anecdote about our own mishaps and sometimes share a picture.

Would any professional woodworker publish details of the customers that have not been satisfied, the number of jobs that they have had to return to after completion or the number of jobs that they have started but been sacked from for whatever reason?

Building and maintaining a business is about success not broadcasting failures.

Peter

Offline Svar

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #92 on: May 26, 2017, 10:50 AM »
There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.
I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

Offline kevinculle

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #93 on: May 26, 2017, 12:01 PM »
I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

Failure rates analogous to the Kapex issue are not easily available, what is available are the JD Powers et al quality surveys which assess customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the features and build quality of vehicle models.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2017, 12:54 PM »
There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who would publish failure rates.
I think failure rates in automobile industry are easily available.

Some may be but again the manufacturers will not be the ones spreading the news.

I discovered my X3 had to go in for a recall which BMW did not tell me about and it was not publicised in any way. It was for re-welding the Iso-Loc fixing points for child seats. We have 6 grandsons and for me this was a big deal. BMW referred to it as something like a "cosmetic" or "comfort" adjustment.

Has there been any manufacturer of woodworking kit that has published failure rates for any of their gear? .... Silence !

Peter

Offline Robertooo

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2017, 01:34 PM »
So, going back to the original question...I think Festool tool quality is outstanding overall.  If there is another manufacturer providing a similar range of tools of an even higher quality level I would certainly be interested to have a look!  On FOG there are often references to Mafell as being greatly superior, but I must say - as Mafell KS300 owner myself and also owning a rather big stack of Festool systainers at the same time... - I don't see a really obvious difference in pure "quality" there either.  For me, Festool means high quality, well engineered tools - just as you would expect ze Germans to deliver.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2017, 06:04 PM »
I think there are several kinds of quality.  What this thread seems to be about is reliability, which is one kind of quality.  While the jury is still out on this one pending more data, for my part I have purchased ten Festool tools, none more than two years old, and have sent two of them in for repair.  Festool repair has been very quick to repair them, so downtime (yet another measure of quality) has been minimal, and at virtually no cost.  However, as the three year warrantee periods expire, future repairs will become more expensive.

It seems to me that where Festool excels is at yet another measure of quality - fitness for use.  The integrated design for dust collection and design for use at customer sites with minimal impact on the site and relatively easy transportability are all characteristics of this measure of quality.  So far I'm not impressed with Festool reliability, since both my Milwaukee and DeWalt tools have been much more reliable over a much longer period.  However, the quality of the design for dust control is useful enough to me that I will continue to buy/use Festool - as long as the cost of reliability does not become too burdensome.

As a counter example to my overall happiness with Festool fitness for use, I will shortly be posting my C18 for sale in the classifieds because (1) it broke under moderate use and has had to be repaired, (2) it is not integrated into the Festool dust collection system, which is the primary fitness of use category for me, and (3) while it is well designed for fitness of use for drilling, that aspect of fitness of use does not outweigh the potential for reliability issues in the long run, at least for me.  Add to that the lack of a Festool solution for 1/4" ball detent bits.   I can do what I need to do perfectly well with my Milwaukee and DeWalt drills, at the same dust levels, without having to buy new bits.  However, by offering it in the classifieds at some future date, I'm assuming that others of you out there will disagree with my calculations, and think that the quality of design offsets the potential unreliability, whatever you think that might be.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 06:10 PM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2017, 09:44 PM »
There is no manufacturer or supplier in the World who "would" publish failure rates.
...

Maybe none that have, but some could.
If the rate was zero it seems pretty noteworthy.
One can market this in a number of ways. (For instance the Volvo still crash, and have fatalities, but their marketing leaves an impression)

Secrecy and silence is not aiding in calming conspiracy theorists.

Offline kevinculle

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #98 on: May 27, 2017, 08:21 AM »
Imagine Festool proceeded to publish Kapex failure rate data in as detailed a format as possible and the failure rate was quite low (<<1%) and it did not show a pattern with build year, etc.  Objectively that might suggest that Festool had done due diligence and that there was no justification for a recall or special warranty policy.  Do you imagine that this would resolve the issue for owners who had experienced failures and that they would be satisfied??  Of course not!  So even if the data is relatively clean there is little for Festool to gain by releasing it.

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #99 on: May 27, 2017, 08:40 AM »
I think Festool needs to come out with a new saw.  A improved version of the Kapex.  Stop wasting time on the new "improved" hose ends.  The Kapex now has a tarnished name.  In my option they can't fix it at this point.  How long will the silence go on for? 

Offline Jaybolishes

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2017, 10:00 AM »
Absolutely the Kapex needs a total re design.  Make it 12" with more power, as the current one seems very underpowered.  The Contractors here are used to dewalts, Bosch and others, so one cut with a kapex tells them this saw will not hold up. But I guess it's only a trim saw which is another problem.  It's no wonder the saws motors fail, people plunge into wood like they are used to with their previous saws so the kapex I believe may be failing due to its weak motor.  People with nothing but time on their hands probably don't see motor falures because they have time to let the blade do the cut.  Contractors with a house to build aren't going to make a thousand cuts nice and slow and then also wait for the blade to stop.  Which is another issue. Many people have said to get the kapex to not throw off cuts you should wait for the blade to stop, which is ridiculous as the other saws don't require this at all, at least my Bosch axial and dewalt don't.   Which is another the issue, the problem with some saws having a low turret, like my friends had with his he was using.  The Kapex is a dog with fleas and a very expensive one.  It's also just a trim saw by design.  So they should beef it up to be  more versatile. Maybe they could redisign the handle to be able to flip from vertical to hozizontal, that would be a nice feature.
  If festool just bit the bullet and listened to the feedback and came out with a new saw, they wouldn't be able to keep them on the shelves. Unlike my dealer now who says kapex's never sell.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 10:11 AM by Jaybolishes »

Offline LJD

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2017, 02:13 PM »
I would never buy a kapex  having used one. Its nothing special and  very over priced .

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2017, 07:11 PM »
Imagine Festool proceeded to publish Kapex failure rate data in as detailed a format as possible and the failure rate was quite low (<<1%) and it did not show a pattern with build year, etc.  Objectively that might suggest that Festool had done due diligence and that there was no justification for a recall or special warranty policy.  Do you imagine that this would resolve the issue for owners who had experienced failures and that they would be satisfied??  Of course not!  So even if the data is relatively clean there is little for Festool to gain by releasing it.

The confirmation bias of the people that have them thinking they are great, and the people with burnt out units thinking they are crap will not likely change.

Perhaps the people in the middle who are not buying one would be changed.

At this point I am no longer interested in the Kapex, but I do not know what and how others think.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2017, 07:35 PM »
@Holmz ,  based on your previous posts about the Kapex I am surprised that that it came to this point that you are no longer interested in the Kapex.  Based on earlier posts, I thought you were there a long time ago.

People are free to choose their tools from a multitude of manufacturers.  Perhaps Mafell, or Matebo, or Bosch, or ... will have an offering that suits your needs and then if you have an issue with that product you will post your constructive comments on their user website.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 06:42 AM by Peter Halle »
Disclaimer:  I have been involved with the development of some TSO Products.  I have offered thoughts and ideas freely.  I am not paid but I may receive products during the development process or afterwards.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Festool quality?
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2017, 07:58 PM »
@Holmz ,  based on your previous posts about the Kapex I am surprised that that it came to this point that you are no longer be interested in the Kapex.  Based on earlier posts, I thought you were there a long time ago.

People are free to choose their tools from a multitude of manufacturers.  Perhaps Mafell, or Mateo, or Bosch, or ... will have an offering that suits your needs and then if you have an issue wither product you will post your constructive comments on their user website.

Peter

Well I like to have nostalgic moments recalling the past, and that was fostered further watch "Big Wednesday" last night.
Plus I also do not often need a SCMS.
But the kapex was the tool that I thought, "wow, that looks handy", and Mrs 1/2-wanted it.

Basically if my (0.02-€) perspective helps you and Festool then great.
That is what a constructive criticism comment is intended for.
If not...  then continue to be in denial that at least the perception of the Kapex having trouble is moving people towards looking elsewhere.


I have not had issues with the Mafell tools breaking so I cannot post In the way you suggest.

I have Festool Mirka and Mafell tools because each company has a niche where they excel.

Enjoy the Memorial Day weekend sir, and the sacrifices made.