Author Topic: Kapex 60 review, part 2 including the mobile stand and test for flat and square.  (Read 18628 times)

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Offline David Stanton

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The second part to my walk through of the Kapex 60 and also the mobile stand with the amazing adapter plate is done. if you want to grab a coffee and take a seat for 20 minutes.
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Offline Pitto

  • Posts: 27
well covered, thanks dave
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Offline Untidy Shop

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Agree @David Stanton ,  that 'aged' Jarrah timber cut was the real test. Have you tried it on RedGum, Blackwood or non plantation [ie seasoned old growth] Mountain Ash?

Thanks for two very comprehensive videos.
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline David Stanton

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Agree @David Stanton ,  that 'aged' Jarrah timber cut was the real test. Have you tried it on RedGum, Blackwood or non plantation [ie seasoned old growth] Mountain Ash?

Thanks for two very comprehensive videos.

Not on any of those other timbers you mentioned. I thought that Jarrah would have been a very good representative of Australian hardwoods.
Click here for Dave Stanton on Youtube
KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, TXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK

Offline Untidy Shop

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Agree @David Stanton ,  that 'aged' Jarrah timber cut was the real test. Have you tried it on RedGum, Blackwood or non plantation [ie seasoned old growth] Mountain Ash?

Thanks for two very comprehensive videos.
Not on any of those other timbers you mentioned. I thought that Jarrah would have been a very good representative of Australian hardwoods.

Fair enough, certainly gave it a successful workout. Only asked as these other timbers are my favourites, [well apart from MP10 Pine!  [eek]].  [big grin]

@David Stanton
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 04:39 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 409
Thanks Dave! Another great video review.

I'm am pretty disappointed to realise that the KS 60 doesn't seem to have the capacity to comfortably cut a 45degree bevel on a 2x4. You said you measured about 42mm of clearance with the head of the saw tilted to the left (even less if tilted to the right)
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline David Stanton

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Thanks Dave! Another great video review.

I'm am pretty disappointed to realise that the KS 60 doesn't seem to have the capacity to comfortably cut a 45degree bevel on a 2x4. You said you measured about 42mm of clearance with the head of the saw tilted to the left (even less if tilted to the right)
Thanks mrb.
I think the Kapex 60 is aimed at the fixout carpenter, kitchen fitter, home hobbyist, handyman and renovator who want the best option available in that range more than a framing carpenter. But in saying that, the depth of cut for an 8.5 inch saw is still very impressive. It is not a 12 inch saw and I don't think that Festool had ever tried to put it forward as a competitor in that field.
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KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, TXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 409
Thanks for the quick reply Dave,  I totally get that, and framing is not exactly my thing.  But, I've never owned a 12" saw and I feel most of the cheapish saws I've owned will make a cut like that in a 2x4. I could be remembering wrong, but that is a cut I make from time to time, and I certainly don't remember having to finish off such cuts with a hand saw or flipping the material . . . I'll have to check mine when I'm back in the shop.


But thanks again for the great video review! This saw is definitely interesting me and your video has alleviated my worries created by a less favourable review from another FOG member who's opinion I normally trust. I think in at least one aspect his saw may have been a little defective. .

Cheers.

there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Hi,

If one intends to use the KS 60 in a workshop, you'd want the saw to be pushed back as far as possible. In such a case, does the dust extraction hose gets in the way ? or can it swivel to the side and allow the back of the saw to touch the wall ?

Offline David Stanton

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Hi,

If one intends to use the KS 60 in a workshop, you'd want the saw to be pushed back as far as possible. In such a case, does the dust extraction hose gets in the way ? or can it swivel to the side and allow the back of the saw to touch the wall ?
Yes tino. The hose will hit unless you use a right angle bend. 259881-0
Click here for Dave Stanton on Youtube
KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, TXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK

Offline Peter Parfitt

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I have looked at David's two videos and congratulate him on a very thorough piece of work. I am hoping to borrow one of these saws sometime soon and know that I will have to repeat some of David's work in order to have a stand alone video. I will try to provide some "value added" but know that it will be difficult to go beyond what he has done already.

Peter

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 409
^^^ Peter, you're review is still much anticipated!  It is truly great to have Dave now offering great quality video reviews on Festool, but when it comes to buying Festool I appreciate all the reviews, opinions, and videos I can get before I make my decision.

Very hard to eclipse the the reviews coming form the New Brit Workshop!
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline Peter Parfitt

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^^^ Peter, you're review is still much anticipated!  It is truly great to have Dave now offering great quality video reviews on Festool, but when it comes to buying Festool I appreciate all the reviews, opinions, and videos I can get before I make my decision.

Very hard to eclipse the the reviews coming form the New Brit Workshop!

You are very kind - I will do the video of course but I just wanted to highlight what an excellent job David had done and to make people aware that I will have to examine many of the areas that he has.

Cheers.

Peter

Offline thylaxene

  • Posts: 27
Thanks David for the reviews. Moving more towards the 60 over the 120.

Does any AU users know where the Kapex 60 set has gone from the Festool AU site? Can't seem to find it. Have they removed that option of buying the 60 with trolley etc?

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 05:01 PM by thylaxene »

Offline Untidy Shop

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Does any AU users know where the Kapex 60 set has gone from the Festool AU site? Can't seem to find it. Have they removed that option of buying the 60 with trolley etc?

Cheers.

@thylaxene , to my knowledge they have not offered the work stand as a package with the KS60. However the current promotion catalogue ending on March 31 offers a workstand promotion price of A$200 off. See page 3.

http://www.festool.com.au/WebRoot/Store/Shops/tooltechnic/MediaGallery/files/campaigns/Festool_Jan-Mar_17_Campaign_Spreads_low.pdf
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 06:41 PM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline tino_ale

  • Posts: 11
Yes tino. The hose will hit unless you use a right angle bend. [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
[/quote]

Thank you and, wow, what a design overlook, I'm quite surprised. I mean, isn't one of the reasons for the the front rail design to be able to push the saw as far back as possible when space is limited ?

I'm giving a shot at this saw nonetheless. Will return it if it falls short. My current saw does not even cut true when tilted, it has to go. I'll let everyone know what I think about the KS 60.

Offline DiscoStu

  • Posts: 152
I've used a Dewalt with the shadow for the blade line. The issue with that is that you have to start to lower the blade & have the blade guard lift out of the way before you can see it. This means you only have one hand free to move the wood.  I see the Kapex 60 has slots in the guard, so can you easily line the cut up using the light without having to lower the saw etc?


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Offline glass1

  • Posts: 345
this touches on the biggest flaw of the festool miter boxes ( and the Hitachi c10fsb). the blade guard retracts internally. All blade guards on all saws hang up and/or obstruct view from time to time. If one can not easily defeat the guard i.e. lift it out of the way with the thumb as one cuts or lines up the cut if becomes in effect an obstacle and in my world removed making the saw more dangerous. Furthermore the guard on festool miter saws is much closer to the blade so if it defects ... bam it hits the blade much easier than other saws. The bosch saws are difficult as well but doable. The milwaukee, dewalt and makita allow one to hold the blade guard up with the thumb when making long bevel cuts and chop cuts when visibility and hang up are paramount.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Quote from: Untidy Shop link=topic=50664.msg501257#msg501257 [font=arial
date=1489444782]
Does any AU users know where the Kapex 60 set has gone from the Festool AU site? Can't seem to find it. Have they removed that option of buying the 60 with trolley etc?

Cheers.

@thylaxene , to my knowledge they have not offered the work stand as a package with the KS60. However the current promotion catalogue ending on March 31 offers a workstand promotion price of A$200 off. See page 3.

http://www.festool.com.au/WebRoot/Store/Shops/tooltechnic/MediaGallery/files/campaigns/Festool_Jan-Mar_17_Campaign_Spreads_low.pdf

@thylaxene. Whilst browsing a Melb dealer's web site just now I found -
https://www.justtools.com.au/festool-slide-compound-mitre-saw-trolley-ks60-kapex-574788-ks60e-ug-set/

They offer free freight, so if interested you could contact them via their website.
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline David Stanton

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Quote from: Untidy Shop link=topic=50664.msg501257#msg501257 [font=arial
date=1489444782]
Does any AU users know where the Kapex 60 set has gone from the Festool AU site? Can't seem to find it. Have they removed that option of buying the 60 with trolley etc?

Cheers.
Free freight is common place these days for festool products. The prices quoted are nothing special, they run with the promotion until March 31. Carbatec offer free freight on items over $200. Same price pretty much where ever you buy.

@thylaxene , to my knowledge they have not offered the work stand as a package with the KS60. However the current promotion catalogue ending on March 31 offers a workstand promotion price of A$200 off. See page 3.

http://www.festool.com.au/WebRoot/Store/Shops/tooltechnic/MediaGallery/files/campaigns/Festool_Jan-Mar_17_Campaign_Spreads_low.pdf

@thylaxene. Whilst browsing a Melb dealer's web site just now I found -
https://www.justtools.com.au/festool-slide-compound-mitre-saw-trolley-ks60-kapex-574788-ks60e-ug-set/

They offer free freight, so if interested you could contact them via their website.
Click here for Dave Stanton on Youtube
KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, TXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK

Offline ach_78

  • Posts: 42
I've used a Dewalt with the shadow for the blade line. The issue with that is that you have to start to lower the blade & have the blade guard lift out of the way before you can see it. This means you only have one hand free to move the wood.  I see the Kapex 60 has slots in the guard, so can you easily line the cut up using the light without having to lower the saw etc?
According to this video, not at all. The shadow becomes clear only as you lower the blade until you almost touch the pencil line. Then only, there is contrast thus precision (IF you are actually looking at the shadow of a tooth and not the blade body which is recessed compared to the kerf of the cut).



Another problem I see with the shadow system is that you can't precisely line up with a pencil line that has been made on the side of a thick wood stock, since you won't be able to lower the blade until it close to the pencil line. Imagine using the shadow in the configuration you have at 5:00 in the video above.

I'm pretty sure the shadow thing is a serious step backwards compared to properly adjusted lasers (although the laser don't seem dead on in the video above). Festool may have switched to shadow 1/ because of cost and or 2/ to avoid trips to the service center just because misaligned laser.

I think the light should still be adjustable as it could very well be out of alignment with the plane of the blade. It's just that since you have to almost touch the line to get a reading it will be much less visible and problematic.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 05:33 PM by ach_78 »

Offline DiscoStu

  • Posts: 152
I was very keen on the 60 until I read that. Having used the Dewalt I find the shadow line a great idea but completely flawed. It seems to cut very accurately along the shadow and I love that. However the fact that I have to lower the blade to remove the cover so that the line shows makes the shadow almost redundant. I might as well just line up the blade as I've only got one hand free to move the stock in either scenario. With a laser you can carefully align the stock using both hands without having to touch the saw. My current Mitre saw is a cheap saw with a decent blade and a dual laser which I've spent some time adjusting and I find this far easier than the £600 Dewalt that I've been using recently. Oh and the Makita that we've been using is not square. We've tried to square it up etc but something is out. I think it might be the fence.

Not sure what to get if the 60 isn't going to be for me.


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Offline Peter Parfitt

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I would caution anyone not to get too transfixed by the shadow line based on a few shots in a video. Go and look at a machine yourself and either have a go or at least watch someone else demo it in front of you.

I have seen it in the flesh and I don't see the problem.

I would ask anyone with a real issue with this to tell me what degree of accuracy they would expect from a laser line and what they realistically achieve in day to day woodwork. For vitally accurate cuts I either use my Incra saw stop arrangement or I lower the non spinning blade to a pencil line before making the cut.

I am hoping to get hold of a demo machine later this month and will make sure that this is shown clearly in the video.

Peter

Offline glass1

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Shadow line and light on Dewalt is intuative because one can lift the blade guard up with the thumb of the trigger hand greatly increasing its intensity on the wood.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Shadow line and light on Dewalt is intuative because one can lift the blade guard up with the thumb of the trigger hand greatly increasing its intensity on the wood.

I appreciate that one can do that, do you recommend this to everyone as a safe way of using that tool?

Peter

Offline lunchman

  • Posts: 77
Shadow line and light on Dewalt is intuative because one can lift the blade guard up with the thumb of the trigger hand greatly increasing its intensity on the wood.

I appreciate that one can do that, do you recommend this to everyone as a safe way of using that tool?

Peter

I was a bit mystified by that statement as well Peter, as I've never had to do anything special to see the blade shadow on my Dewalt miter saw - simply lower the blade, the guard lifts out of the way and the shadow line becomes clearer as the blade gets closer to the  wood.

Other than my jigsaw, I don't own any tools which incorporate lasers, so I can't compare laser vs. LED. Outside in direct sunlight, it can be a bit tricky to see (if at all), but otherwise it works as I expect it to.

-Dom

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 345
Maybe it's safer to cut wood with a butter knife. Like I said guards that empede can be more dangerous. The shadow line is also most accurate when the blade is spinning. Lowering the spinning blade and moving wood can be dangerous. Lifting the guard slightly allows one to lower spinning blade less. 99.99% of cuts made on the scms are not done under the type of controlled situation I see on your videos using the hold down clamp etc... most of us on the job sites must produce. I stick with my statement, that safeties that empede are more dangerous as they hang up and hit the blade and or bind or get removed altogether. It's a poor design on the festool and hitachi alike.

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 345
most argue that the best safety system added to table saws is either the sawstop or the bosch. Neither, its the quick release riving knife on the dewalt saw. Pull the lever pull it out. Vice versa. This makes it much more likely the riving knife will be used when it should be on most cuts. The more user friendly the safety is the more its used. Most of are not retired lawyers and doctors turned hobbyist woodworkers. Festool advertises professional tools for professionals, its time to cater to us, are you listening festool, forget these weekend warriors and get serious. Sorry to say it as I see it.

Offline DiscoStu

  • Posts: 152
My issue with the Dewalt is not seeing the line but seeing the line without having to move the guard either by hand or by lowering the blade. If I have a piece of 3m long 6x2 I really need both hands to try and get the material in the right place. I have been happy with a well aligned laser and I'm sure I would be happy with a shadow line as long as I can see it.

Looking at the 60 there are some slots cut out of the guard that look like they're there to allow the light out and cast the shadow with the guard in place. I'm hopeful that this is the case. I might have to go and try one out.


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Offline David Stanton

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A couple of things to be aware of.
1. The material support arms on the kapex 60 stand are the same as the kapex 120 stand but there are 2 differences, the tape measure and the clamp underneath. The kapex 60 stand has a plastic support tray that the 60 is fastened to. This support is wider by around 200mm than the kapex 120. the connection points for the material supports are therefore approx 100mm further away from the blade either side. In other words, they are interchangeable but the tape measure becomes redundant. But as I say in the video, this gives you 5 metres of support overall. The clamps to lock the material support arms to the support tray are larger to give a more solid connection.
2. The mobile base/stand for the kapex 60 comes with the plastic support tray. The mobile base for the kapex 120/88 comes with the plastic connectors the are machine screwed to the underside of the kapex 120/88 feet, not interchangeable at all.
The mobile base itself is a new design that requires 4 screws to assemble and now arrives in a smaller box. Even though it may be a little confusing, the mobile base/stand is the same up until the different connectors to the relative saws.
3. The last thing is that I am told that the crown mold stop will not connect to the kapex 60 support tray although I am yet to test it...will do so next week.
Click here for Dave Stanton on Youtube
KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, TXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK