Author Topic: Kapex dust (Read 12382 times)

wtrimman · « **on:** March 04, 2015, 07:16 AM »

Used my kapex and mini ct yesterday for the time . Is there a table concerning where you turn your dial on the ct for more suction concerning the tool you are using? I was surprised that my ct didn't suck more dust down. I had to vacuum the kapex off before loading. My dewalt saw and rigid vacuum does just as good a job. Very happy with the rest of festool stuff.

Sometimewoodworker · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2015, 08:37 AM »

Quote from: wtrimman on March 04, 2015, 07:16 AM

Used my kapex and mini ct yesterday for the time . Is there a table concerning where you turn your dial on the ct for more suction concerning the tool you are using? I was surprised that my ct didn't suck more dust down. I had to vacuum the kapex off before loading. My dewalt saw and rigid vacuum does just as good a job. Very happy with the rest of festool stuff.

Turn it all the way up (hare) and use a 35mm hose

Rob Z · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2015, 09:29 AM »

Hi,

As suggested, larger diameter hose and max suction.

I don't think any saw will get all the dust (unless it's set up with an enclosure behind it like is done for radial arm saws with high CFM air movement), but my experience has been with the Kapex that the finer stuff is effectively collected by the DE, and the stuff that is left is the larger diameter dust that has fallen on the surface of the saw or the saw table.

It's the fine stuff floating around in the air that you breathe that you want to get, and I think the Kapex/larger hose/dust extractor combo gets most of the fine stuff right at the source of the cut.

wtrimman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2015, 11:36 AM »

Quote from: Rob Z on March 04, 2015, 09:29 AM

Hi,

As suggested, larger diameter hose and max suction.

I don't think any saw will get all the dust (unless it's set up with an enclosure behind it like is done for radial arm saws with high CFM air movement), but my experience has been with the Kapex that the finer stuff is effectively collected by the DE, and the stuff that is left is the larger diameter dust that has fallen on the surface of the saw or the saw table.

It's the fine stuff floating around in the air that you breathe that you want to get, and I think the Kapex/larger hose/dust extractor combo gets most of the fine stuff right at the source of the cut.

Correct. I was expecting a little more pickup . Ordered a hose .

Grasshopper · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2015, 12:39 PM »

Something else to note that while a shop vac may bring similar suction, its ability to keep the fine dust that you cannot see inside the canister without recirculating the fine dust back into the air can be an issue.

I'd suspect this is where the Festool CT's can shine.

mike_aa · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2015, 01:25 PM »

Quote from: Grasshopper on March 04, 2015, 12:39 PM

Something else to note that while a shop vac may bring similar suction, its ability to keep the fine dust that you cannot see inside the canister without recirculating the fine dust back into the air can be an issue.

I'd suspect this is where the Festool CT's can shine.

I do agree with you, however, before I had a Festool CT, I fitted my Rigid and other vacs with pleated HEPA filters to help with collecting some of the fine dust. They are available at the big box stores.

Mike A.

#Tee · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2015, 01:59 PM »

ya i used the 27mm and was disappointed, swapped out with the 36mm and there was much less crap flying around towards the front. cant get it all but i was happy.

Iceclimber · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:50 PM »

Funny,

People will not even go near another complain about the Kapex thread....

Yeah the dust collection leaves something to be desired.

Yes it kinda sucks as one of the big marketing points to the Kapex os dust collection. For those that think its going to be near the 90% Festool and the fanboys claim are in for major disappointment.

Im a contractor "carpenter" have been for 20 years. I purchased the Kapex for multiple reasons but will admit the idea of 90% dust collection was what first attracted me to the saw.

I often use a 12" yellow saw at work not connected to any dust collection " and its not" it makes a horrific mess. I don't often take the Kapex to work but i would never ever part with it regardless of the things many can find to complain about with regard to what it is and is not.

Imop its a pretty awesome saw. Is it everything its claimed to be or worth $1400 probably not. Like i said i would never give it back. And unless it dies in 5-7 years or something i would buy another one in heartbeat. Why because it is that much better than a yellow saw. Nope i cant really tell you why bit it is!

WoodWhisperer · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2015, 10:35 PM »

I was also a little disappointed with the DC. If u really what to see how much it really catches, take the hose off and make a few cuts! It's pretty messy:)

Sean

Charlie Mac · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2015, 11:41 PM »

The comparison to a saw with no dust collection is not compelling to me. I've had my Dewalt hooked to the CT48 for two years and it does OK. When it arrives, if the Kapex is not markedly better in this respect AND in accuracy, it (and the Midi) will probably be sent back. It's just too much to spend for a negligible to small improvement.

Baremeg55 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2015, 12:04 AM »

Quote from: Charlie Mac on March 06, 2015, 11:41 PM

The comparison to a saw with no dust collection is not compelling to me. I've had my Dewalt hooked to the CT48 for two years and it does OK. When it arrives, if the Kapex is not markedly better in this respect AND in accuracy, it (and the Midi) will probably be sent back. It's just too much to spend for a negligible to small improvement.

Well Charlie, the jury is still out for me on the Kapex with regard to dust collection. I haven't been overly impressed with the dust collection, I thought it would capture more dust than it does..... The only thing I haven't tried yet, and I will do it tomorrow, will be to shorten my 36mm hose. Okay, two things I could try, the other being the new bristle design recently announced, but that could apply to my DeWalt saw and improve its dust collection also....

My deal is, I do not really need the slider, my miter saw never leaves my shop, and my non sliding DeWalt Cuts very accurately, and with the blade I have on it now, it cuts great too.... And I can hook up my 4" dust collector to my present DeWalt set-up and capture as much if not more than the Kapex.

If not satisfied, I might put my Kapex up for sale. At least I can claim a level surface and straight fences on my Kapex, which should help it sale fast if/when I decide...

Charlie Mac · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2015, 01:37 AM »

I appreciate the frank assessments put forward in this thread. Since placing my order on the 27th, I've been considering the dust issue and am now thinking there's only so much a sliding miter saw can do. The blade guard, the kerf trough, and the rubber scoop. It looks like the rubber scoop on the Kapex is significantly wider and a little longer then that on my DeWalt. Right now I feel fortunate for Festool's 30 day policy and a little annoyed about the "no end in sight" back order situation.

Doug S · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2015, 02:23 AM »

Using the correct cutting technique does make a big difference on the kapex dust extraction, so does the shape/size of the stock you as cutting.

Doug

Iceclimber · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2015, 08:32 AM »

After now using Festool for a bit of time on a whole the dust collection across the line of Festool tools is not what i was lead to believe. That is only due to marketing, salesman, and fanboys as i am not saying the dust collection is not a huge improvement over brands. The dust collection imop is great and has greatly improved the joy i get working as i really enjoy a clean work area.

I am not saying the dust collection is a farce but rather that a few tools in the line really shine with regard to dust collection and a few will really let you down.

I think its pretty simple. Certain tools due to "form and function" will only collect well regardless of manufacturer. With so many manufactures now designing dust collection into their tools the playing field with regard to dust collection imop is becoming more level.

Few market the dust collection as aggressively as Festool though hence i think some peoples disappointment when it does not perform heads and shoulders above the competitions dust collection.

For me it is like this. I replaced my whole shop of tools with Festools for the most part. I did the whole thing, multiple CT's all the way down to tools like drills that don't even collect dust. My opinion is the dust collection issue really becomes most apparent when every tool you use is capable of dust collection. What i am trying to say is some tools in the line really shine with regard to dust collection and others not so much. But they all collect more dust than a tool with no dust collection. When used exclusively the overall reduction of dust in the shop is significant.

One tool used or interspersed among other brands and "if that tool is not one of the ones that shines like the track saw or sander" vrs the Kapex or a router and you might not notice how significant the dust collection on Festools really is.

Again the competition has caught on to the dust collection trend. Im not saying they do it as well but they are gaining momentum and imop this will to a large degree neutralize at least some of the appeal of Festool.

I kept all my prior hand tools and use them in the field for various task at various stages of progress throughout a project. Right now i am working on a 8K sq foot new construction uber custom home. To date we are trimming out the exterior and siding with cedar. We are also doing the roof with cedar shakes although that is kinda at a stand still as here in Boston we are buried under 9ft of snow. Other than that we are making various interior changes to the framing and structure as the designers get picky and do their thing as they do

in a few short months the interior finish work will commence and the Festools will be broken out and the yellow, blue and red tools put away for the most part. The point is every tools has its place and none of them are magic.

DB10 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2015, 06:42 AM »

I need to get a new mitre saw.
But It's for these reasons and a few others, why I won't pull the trigger on a new Kapex. the risk is just too high. Over here it would cost me nearly $3k for the full set up, then the cost of a 36 hoses and if I'm not happy with the saw there is no return policy, I'll be stuck with it. there are some good deals going on with the Bosch professional range and a good set up could be had for $1k, it's tempting.

John_ · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2015, 11:54 AM »

You mean all these claims that you can use the Kapex on your kitchen table while eating dinner are not true

I guess I will have to stick with my Bosch Glide - although I did buy the Bosch Vac to go with it instead of another Festool CT (totally price for the vac and the saw - slightly over $1,100)

JZ Bowmannz · « **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2015, 12:37 PM »

The dust created by Kapex is nothing different from other miter saws. It might be getting too technical, but here is something I drawn up to explain it.

The saw dust travel in direction perpendicular to the tooth angle. Right after the cut, the initial speed of the dust is very high so that it appears that all dust are at Y direction, and the X direction is barely taking any effect, but it still there. So the dust is flying out. Unless the dust shroud very close to the cutting point and wrap around saw blade (Kapex is designed better than the rest), the dust will fly out.

The finer dust are very light and very easy to change the travel direction causing by air movement (dust collection), so they got sucked in (those are our major concern). The larger particles in the other hand are not very easy to change the direction will hit the dust shroud bounce out or fall onto the cutting table.
The more air movement (DC) the better chance to get all the particles. That's the reason for D36 hose instead of D27 because of the size of the air pass cross section. I used Shopvac with 2 1/2" hose to increase the volume of the air flow, but limited by the opening size of the Kapex dust port. (I think it's way to boring to show any air pressure and aerodynamic calculation so I am skipping that part

) Thus, technically you can only do so much.

But a simple bigger shroud with do much better job.
Kapex DC Shroud

I did some work for my other miter saw too. The above thread showed the 12" Ridgid, it did a better DC job than Kapex without the shroud modification. Below pictures were from the 12" Bosch SCMS before I had my Kapex 3 years ago, it was as accurate as the Kapex. I used the Bosch to cut stuff indoor with CT22 or Shopvac hooded up, never had problem.

The reason for the Kapex is because the weight, size and space needed behind the saw for shop set up, not because of the DC capability, and 12" Bosch glider just too big and heavy for any mobility consideration.

Iceclimber · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2015, 12:51 PM »

My solution to better miter saw dust collection.

I used a old or damaged MFT top for a few reasons. The biggest being a down draft table being installed bellow the saw along with the hose to the back of the saw.

Dont hand out to me for the fancy babied shop. As i spend 40hrs a week on a dirty dust ridden pile of a jobsight. At home i like things neat organized and clean as possible. It makes things feel less like work

ianrose · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2015, 07:49 PM »

I have the Kapex and use a Rigid 16 gallon with an ivac switch as well 1" 7/8 diameter - 6' orange hose .No complaints!

Mustang2004 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 16, 2015, 04:53 PM »

Recently picked up a Kapex for the following reasons: accuracy and ease of cuts, all the extra features, ability to place close to a wall, and the light weight.

I too was a little disappointed on the dust collection, went with the larger hose hooked up to my CT22 much improved. I'm wondering if the overall structure of COmpound Mitre Saws with more open space vs. a standard chop saw is tougher on dust collection. The overall dust collection is consistent with my old DeWalt 704 chop saw.

WarnerConstCo. · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2015, 07:29 AM »

Peter Halle · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2015, 07:44 AM »

Quote from: Jeff2413 on May 28, 2015, 07:21 AM

I purchased the Kapex and the UG cart when the 10% sale was going on. I should have known something was up for Festool to discount any of it's items. Seemed odd to me but I took advantage of the savings. Needless to say, I returned both items 2 weeks later. Major disappointment in both products.

This saw is sort of a joke IMO. Dust collection is fair at best. However, dust collection on any SCMS isn't great. However, the design of the saw just doesn't promote dust going up that crazy, restricted chute. Oh yea, buy yet another hose. Forgot to tell you that will help a bit more. If the Kapex gets 90% with the 36MM hose then my $500 Hitachi gets 85%. And the new 10" Bosch glide gets 95%. Sub-fence is mandatory for cutting small moldings or be prepared for flying objects. Power of the saw was pathetic. This saw ran like it was on a 14g cord strung across about 4 football fields. And there wasn't anything wrong with my saw as I compared it to the display model. Awkward as heck handle design. Found myself hating the saw more and more each time I made a cut. At the time I was building 16 recessed panel columns. Each had 8 panels with a glazing bead. Setting a stop on my Sawhelper made this simple but constantly getting my forearm/hand/wrist in that weird position was really annoying.

In summary I absolutely love my Festool stuff and I really wanted to love this saw. The portability, capacity, dust collection were strong selling points to me. However, at nearly $2000 with cart I honestly felt like a sucker. Thank goodness for the 30 day guarantee! Since then have purchased the LR32 boring system. This I can't say enough good things about!

Sorry to hear that your second experience ended up being much like your first experience which ended in selling your previous Kapex in the classified section here back in 2012.

The return period does allow you to see if the saw is to your liking.

Peter

Holmz · « **Reply #22 on:** May 29, 2015, 04:15 AM »

Quote from: JZ Bowmannz on March 08, 2015, 12:37 PM

The dust created by Kapex is nothing different from other miter saws. It might be getting too technical, but here is something I drawn up to explain it.
...

In general ^that^ is a very good clear explanation. I like your work!

However there may also be some windage effects like air stuck to the blade and vortex like things happening??
I suspect that a "scraper" around the blade with an air jet could largely remove the remaining swirl that would be mostly the fine dust as you pointed out.

It would either take some empirical work like a high speed movie, or some computational fluid dynamics to work it out.
It could be a great research project for an academic.

SittingElf · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2015, 05:02 AM »

Quote from: Iceclimber on March 08, 2015, 12:51 PM

My solution to better miter saw dust collection.

I used a old or damaged MFT top for a few reasons. The biggest being a down draft table being installed bellow the saw along with the hose to the back of the saw.

Dont hand out to me for the fancy babied shop. As i spend 40hrs a week on a dirty dust ridden pile of a jobsight. At home i like things neat organized and clean as possible. It makes things feel less like work

What a great idea!

It just happens that I have a Grizzly Downdraft table that I haven't used in ages. I was thinking about selling it because the Festool sanders hook directly up to a CT, and I do very little other sanding that would strongly benefit from the table.

This table has a working height of 32", so only 22mm higher than the Festool Kapex MFT. Workable! It's wide enough, and deep enough to fit the Kapex easily, and the sides fold down, so it would be easy to add extensions. Table width is 31 1/2" and depth is 28 1/2". The Kapex dimensions are 28" x 19 3/4" x 18 1/2". No problem!

Powered by an impeller with 1300CFM, and then if I also attach the Kapex to my CT-Mini with 36mm hose, I should be able to eliminate virtually ALL the dust....at least I think!

Glad you thought of the idea, and made me think of a great use for an otherwise unused machine in my shop!!!

Cheers,

Frank

leakyroof · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2015, 02:23 PM »

Quote from: SittingElf on May 29, 2015, 05:02 AM

Quote from: Iceclimber on March 08, 2015, 12:51 PM
My solution to better miter saw dust collection.

I used a old or damaged MFT top for a few reasons. The biggest being a down draft table being installed bellow the saw along with the hose to the back of the saw.

Dont hand out to me for the fancy babied shop. As i spend 40hrs a week on a dirty dust ridden pile of a jobsight. At home i like things neat organized and clean as possible. It makes things feel less like work

What a great idea!

It just happens that I have a Grizzly Downdraft table that I haven't used in ages. I was thinking about selling it because the Festool sanders hook directly up to a CT, and I do very little other sanding that would strongly benefit from the table.

(Attachment Link)

This table has a working height of 32", so only 22mm higher than the Festool Kapex MFT. Workable! It's wide enough, and deep enough to fit the Kapex easily, and the sides fold down, so it would be easy to add extensions. Table width is 31 1/2" and depth is 28 1/2". The Kapex dimensions are 28" x 19 3/4" x 18 1/2". No problem!

Powered by an impeller with 1300CFM, and then if I also attach the Kapex to my CT-Mini with 36mm hose, I should be able to eliminate virtually ALL the dust....at least I think!

Glad you thought of the idea, and made me think of a great use for an otherwise unused machine in my shop!!!

Cheers,

Frank

You suck Frank. although in a helpful way.......

Jealous that you have that much room to be able to have that table in the first place. Show us your 'rigged' Kapex table when you get done. Just don't go to great lengths and repaint that Grizzly Green to match the Festool colors....

shed9 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 30, 2015, 04:15 AM »

Dust aside, I'm surprised no one has mentioned kick back yet...

The Kapex is the only saw I've ever had that has kicked back on me during normal use. In reality this has actually worked in my favor as it's forced me to use all saws more safely, i.e. wait for the blade to stop and using fences where possible. This in itself has had a knock-on effect of improving dc as well.