Author Topic: KAPEX Poll regarding motor  (Read 25003 times)

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Offline JFitz

  • Posts: 6
KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« on: September 29, 2016, 02:51 PM »
I would like to ask for a simple poll regarding the Kapex.
Who has had to send their saw in for motor service or replacement within the 1st 3 years of ownership and who has had no motor issues within the 1st 3 years of ownership regarding the motor.
If you have had motor issues, I would also be interested in your service experience if it was positive or troublesome.
I have read plenty of positive and negative reviews regarding this saw, so I am not looking for reviews, just looking to compare numbers to see if more people who participate in this forum have had no motor issues, or more have had problems.
I really want this saw, since it has everything I am looking for except a reliable motor (Based on posted reviews).

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline copcarcollector

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 02:54 PM »
No issues with my saw

Offline ccarrolladams

  • Posts: 1465
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 03:19 PM »
I own the first and second Kapex delivered in Los Angeles as well as 8 other Kapex used by two businesses I founded. Some are used more hours per day than others. All receive ordinary preventive maintenance.

Not one of my Kapex has ever suffered a failure. All of the original motors continue to work fine.

I am good friends with many woodworkers. None of my Kapex owning friends has had motor problems.

Offline Arvid

  • Posts: 76
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 03:21 PM »
i have had two since the first month of introduction in the states. one seems weekly shop use one sees weekly job site use. never a problem with either motor.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 03:37 PM »
I've had my 240volt Kapex for over 2 years, never had a single problem with it!

Offline waho6o9

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 03:45 PM »
No issues with my saw either.



Offline cred

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 03:47 PM »
Had my Kapex for ~2 years with regular use, no motor (or other) issues at all

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 450
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 04:00 PM »
4 years, light hobby DIY use.  No issues.
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 04:08 PM »
Owner for 6 years - no issue

Peter
Scraps to Smiles.  To be continued.....  Stay Tuned.

Offline Festoolfootstool

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 04:23 PM »
You have read a lot about the saw. a poll is meaningless if you want one just go and buy one.
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline McNally Family

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2016, 06:30 PM »
I would like to ask for a simple poll regarding the Kapex.
Who has had to send their saw in for motor service or replacement within the 1st 3 years of ownership and who has had no motor issues within the 1st 3 years of ownership regarding the motor.
If you have had motor issues, I would also be interested in your service experience if it was positive or troublesome.
I have read plenty of positive and negative reviews regarding this saw, so I am not looking for reviews, just looking to compare numbers to see if more people who participate in this forum have had no motor issues, or more have had problems.
I really want this saw, since it has everything I am looking for except a reliable motor (Based on posted reviews).

Really?  A second thread regarding the same issue?  Why not focus on your original thread:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/kapex-looking-for-positive-reviews-before-purchasing/msg477664/#msg477664

Personally, I don't think anyone but you can make the decision to purchase this saw.  Armed with a 30 day return policy and a solid 3-year warranty, I'm not sure why you don't simply purchase the saw and start enjoying it's capability.  As already suggested, when you near the end of your 3-year warranty, if your still concerned, sell your saw and purchase another one.  If this is for business, you can write off the costs. 

GREEN: In order of purchase = C18 5.2 Set w/Centrotec Installer's Set | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set | RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set |  Won the CXS Li 2.6 90 Limited Edition on 06/20/2016 | Metric Parallel Guide Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | FS1400/2-LR 32 Guide Rail (x1) | MFT FX Set | Next  Purchase: Something else Metric |

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Offline Wittler1507

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 06:37 PM »
Absolutely no problems with mine, think it's coming on 4 yrs old now.

Offline John Bates

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 06:38 PM »
Mine required a new armature and field, very expensive but I enjoyed what the saw did for me.
If you want one, buy one. If you think it might go wrong, buy one that you think won't. Good luck.
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2016, 10:12 PM »
This isn't a poll. A real poll is better attached to the first thread and this thread eliminated.

I dont like the saw, but two threads on it? It makes no sense.

Can the moderator just add a real Poll Question and attach it to the original thread. Maybe questions could be:

Festool Kapex Poll

1) no issue with saw
2) issue with motor before warranty
3) issue with motor after warranty
4) other issue

Two threads on the same exact thing isnt going to make getting the OP's question answered in a way the results can easily be found, a poll will.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 325
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2016, 10:26 PM »
Buy the saw,use it for 2 years 10 mos ,and send it in for a fix.
Done


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Offline JFitz

  • Posts: 6
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2016, 10:26 PM »
Quote from: JFitz
link=topic=48360.msg477853#msg477853 date=1475175068
I would like to ask for a simple poll regarding the Kapex.
Who has had to send their saw in for motor service or replacement within the 1st 3 years of ownership and who has had no motor issues within the 1st 3 years of ownership regarding the motor.
If you have had motor issues, I would also be interested in your service experience if it was positive or troublesome.
I have read plenty of positive and negative reviews regarding this saw, so I am not looking for reviews, just looking to compare numbers to see if more people who participate in this forum have had no motor issues, or more have had problems.
I really want this saw, since it has everything I am looking for except a reliable motor (Based on posted reviews).

Really?  A second thread regarding the same issue?  Why not focus on your original thread:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/kapex-looking-for-positive-reviews-before-purchasing/msg477664/#msg477664

Personally, I don't think anyone but you can make the decision to purchase this saw.  Armed with a 30 day return policy and a solid 3-year warranty, I'm not sure why you don't simply purchase the saw and start enjoying it's capability.  As already suggested, when you near the end of your 3-year warranty, if your still concerned, sell your saw and purchase another one.  If this is for business, you can write off the costs.
The thread you referenced was me looking for positive feedback. I heard the negatives, heard the positives and now needed to quantify the numbers, that is where I find comfort in large purchases, which this is for me. It is not my intention to waste time, words or take up server space.
I like your sugestion about taking advantage of 30 day trial and warranty. It looks like that will be the route I take. Thanks to the forum for the feedback, time and patience

Offline David Stanton

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2016, 01:34 AM »
Over a year, moderate to light use...love it, never a problem.
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Offline Michael1960

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2016, 10:34 AM »
No problems in the last two + years

Offline Elmar50

  • Posts: 54
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2016, 10:55 AM »
2.5 years and an occasional brownout behavior but no failures. Does what I bought it to do- so far.

Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 169
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2016, 05:59 PM »
First Kapex had motor failure after 4 yrs. 2nd Kapex had motor failure after 18 months. Single user, 3/4 hardwood and sheet good trimming. Never used without dust collection, and never abused. Both repaired motors are louder than original motors....I'm crossing my fingers!!

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2852
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2016, 06:09 PM »
Morts10n, there has been some talk about how one uses the saw could have something to do with the motor's life expectancy. They say letting the motor get up to full speed before cutting is better than cranking and chopping.

Don't know if there is any truth to that but how would you characterize the way you used (quickly or slowly) the saw?

Offline KescoNY

  • Posts: 105
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2016, 06:13 PM »
Own (3) Kapex   1 in the garage with rare use and 2 on job sites constantly being used   Never had an issue with motors or anything else on them besides the laser sight needing occasional cleaning
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Offline Doug B

  • Posts: 47
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2016, 04:30 AM »
Coming up for 7 years, regular use, very pleased with the saw

Offline morts10n

  • Posts: 169
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2016, 02:14 PM »
Michael,
As I mentioned, saw is never abused. Saw gets up to speed first. Motor is never overworked by "chopping" into work piece. I wonder if using the saw with a dust collector strains the electronics in some way

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2016, 02:26 PM »
Michael,
As I mentioned, saw is never abused. Saw gets up to speed first. Motor is never overworked by "chopping" into work piece. I wonder if using the saw with a dust collector strains the electronics in some way

I imagine there are some people who think chopping is not abuse. Not me.

Offline MrGinCT

  • Posts: 102
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2016, 04:59 PM »
I bought mine used and I've had it 5 years now without any mechanical issues.

Offline Holmz

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2016, 08:17 PM »
... I heard the negatives, heard the positives and now needed to quantify the numbers, that is where I find comfort in large purchases, which this is for me. It is not my intention to waste time, words or take up server space.
...

There are 2 fundamental flaws with your approach:
1) This is a Festool Forum, and so it is likely that the poll will be biased.
2) There is Confirmation Bias .

For the first one, then ideally you need some poll, or statistics, from a more neutral distribution of owners.

I am not sure how to address the second one.
(I really like the design as it is good on many levels, but I would not use one enough to 'need' it.)

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 258
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2016, 05:52 AM »
The only way to decide if there really is a problem or not would be to have direct access to data (both from Festool and from other manufacturers, to be able to compare): Machines sold, machines repaired (including state they were in), defective machines discarded (same data as for repairs) - all indexed with date and serial numbers.

We can't do that without being the NSA (and hopefully they can't too), so the only sane approach is to the following:

( how much is a certain device when you buy it minus how much will you'll get on average for it after warranty ends ) divided by length of warranty.

Lower numbers are better, offset the whole by what you get out of the machine (feature/ease of use/accuracy wise) and you'll know what machine is right for you.



Offline alice

  • Posts: 41
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2016, 03:17 PM »
My motor was replaced at 18 months 120 v

Offline WPeters

  • Posts: 199
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2016, 08:09 AM »
First motor burnt up within two years of purchase.  The second burnt up 9 months after the first.  The saw is taken care of and receives moderate use in our cabinet shop.  It has never been abused.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 532
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2016, 12:56 PM »
Mine gave up the ghost after 3 1/2 years. ~ $550 to repair.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline David Stanton

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2016, 05:23 PM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
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Offline Svar

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2016, 05:30 PM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.

Offline GOT8SPD

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2016, 05:31 PM »
Personally, I don't think anyone but you can make the decision to purchase this saw.  Armed with a 30 day return policy and a solid 3-year warranty, I'm not sure why you don't simply purchase the saw and start enjoying it's capability.  As already suggested, when you near the end of your 3-year warranty, if your still concerned, sell your saw and purchase another one.  If this is for business, you can write off the costs.

Not a bad idea.  With how popular used Festool products get snatched up, I'm sure you could buy a new one today for $1500, and in 3 years, sell it for $1000, and then buy another one.  $500 for 3 years of usage and "peace of mind" is a small price to pay.  $166.67 cost per year of usage, $13.89 per month.  Not a bad deal.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2016, 05:32 PM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.


Not true at all, I have used the Fein collectors and plugged a Kapex into them for years. Anyone with a Kapex mostly likely has a high end collector. There are several 3rd party dust collectors that come to mind that a Kapex would get plugged into. I  don't think  many with a Kapex use a shop vac or collector that doesn't have the auto on feature.

I
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 05:38 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Svar

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2016, 05:36 PM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.
Not true at all, I have used the Fein collectors and plugged a Kapex into them for years.
You meant "not necessarily true", that's why I said "likely". I'm sure most third party vacs are not Fein or Mafell. Besides, would't Fein maintain a constant power supply?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 05:39 PM by Svar »

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2016, 05:39 PM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.
Not true at all, I have used the Fein collectors and plugged a Kapex into them for years.
You meant "not necessarily true", that's why I said "likely". Besides, would't Fein maintain a constant power supply?

I think a anyone sends 1500.00 on a saw likely spends the money to get a collector that turn on with the saw, no matter the brand.

All I know is the Fein works fine, I have a Turbo on one right now in my brothers shop and has been on there for at least two different Kapex going back years.

All I care about is that the colletor turns on and off and collects the dust. I prefer the Fein and my old Festool CT 33 over over My CT 48, the darn thing turns off way too soon. The Fein and CT 33 stay on a nice full 6 seconds or so, the CT 48 barely 3 seconds.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 05:47 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline bobfog

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2016, 05:40 PM »
I would expect that any vac that has a take off for power would maintain constant power supply provided that the tool doesn't exceed the rated load for the vac.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2016, 05:54 PM »
The only issue with the Fein is they are very sensitive to turn on. if I use my Milwaukee slider and the little LED is on its enough to turn the Fein vac on, the Festool CT doesn't turn on unit I pull the trigger to the saw. As operation the Fein is a high quality tool, in some way I prefer them over the CT's. I don't know the ratings on the Fein auto start, but the saws and even the RO sanders and OF2200 don't effect the operation of the Fein Turbos or tools connected to them. No noticeable drain or anything like that.


As far as the Kapex motor, mine never went out. I returned three of them over the years myself for other reasons, but the one at my brothers shop still works and the motor seems to be perfectly fine, it's 2 or 3 years old.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Cheese

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2016, 10:13 PM »
As operation the Fein is a high quality tool, in some way I prefer them over the CT's.

I agree, I use a turbo for my Kapex...no problems and we're going on 3 years.

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2016, 10:41 PM »
I really don't think the problem with the Kapex is start up speed, vacuum type, abuse, power, etc...

It's a motor issue!! A $1900 saw with a poorly designed motor!!

How many more saws will die before Festool steps up and comes up with a real fix..?

Offline Cheese

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2016, 11:02 PM »
I really don't think the problem with the Kapex is start up speed, vacuum type, abuse, power, etc...

It's a motor issue!! A $1900 saw with a poorly designed motor!!

You are correct, and Festool is fully aware of the problem...however as it was explained to me, they don't know if it's a vendor issue or if it's a design issue. And unfortunately that puts the problem in the Bermuda Triangle arena which means it may or may not be solved.

Offline rowka

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2016, 05:09 PM »
How could it possibly be a vendor issue?

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2016, 07:51 PM »
How could it possibly be a vendor issue?

Hi,

  Welcome to the forum!  [smile]

      I think Cheese probably means vendor of a part of the tool.

Seth

Offline Cheese

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2016, 11:04 PM »
I think Cheese probably means vendor of a part of the tool.

So first things first...[welcome] to the FOG.

Seth nailed it, very few manufacturers are vertically integrated. Meaning, (as an example) Festool doesn't fabricate the individual parts themselves and then assemble the parts to make equipment, rather, they sublet the parts to be manufactured out to various manufacturing entities and they rely on the integrity of their vendors, the robustness of the engineering specification and the correct sampling level in the QA (quality analysis) process to determine the winner of that sublet bid, it is usually determined by price or delivery or both.

FWIW...The only manufacturing group that is vertically integrated is the mechanical watch industry. Rolex in particular, which means each and every part is produced in-house so that they have total control over every part that hits the production floor. This is an extremely costly process and thus why 99% of the manufacturing facilities do not follow this example.

So, the question Festool asks in those brainstorming sessions, that I would love to be a part of...is the design of the saw compromised or are the supplied parts compromised? The old chicken or the egg conundrum.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 08:37 AM by Cheese »

Offline David Stanton

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2016, 06:44 AM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.
Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?
Click here for Dave Stanton on Youtube
KAPEX 120, ROTEX 150, ETS 5 150, TS55, 800-1400-2700 TRACKS,  PDC 18-4 TEC, DOMINO XL, CXS, EHL 65, SYSLITE, HKC 55 EB, PSC 420 EB, CTL SYS, SYSROCK

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3633
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2016, 06:48 AM »
A question for all who are responding to this thread. Are you using the kapex with a festool vac or another brand or no vac at all? I ask because I believe that the Festool vacs maintain a constant power supply to the kapex when it is under load and Third party vacs do not.
If you use a third party vac you likely plug your saw it into the wall and not the vac.
Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

In harmony or harmonics?
It is effectively like plugging it into the wall, it should not be black magic or require Maxwell's understanding of electricity and magnetics.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 258
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2016, 03:57 PM »
Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?
The minimal electronics needed to implement auto-on with delayed-off for a vac consist basically of a coil around one wire of the live socket for the tool (to detect power flow through it through induction), a transistor (that amplifies the induced current from that coil) that drives a triac (switching the line voltage to the vac motor), a capacitor (to keep driving the triac for a while after the transistor switched off) and a few resistors (to limit currents so the transistor survives). Total material cost <5$.

That setup should, unless botched by an unqualified engineer, be agnostic against whatever is connected to the auto-on socket and relieably trigger as soon as a current above a set threshold (to allow for some drain so eg. electronics of the tools in standby dosn't trigger but switching on the motor does) is flowing through the socket.

In case a vac with auto-on dosn't work with a tool with an electronically driven motor: it (the vac) is defective.

EDIT: fixed logic in last sentence and more exact wording in the part list.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 08:21 PM by Gregor »

Offline Xoncention

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2016, 07:07 PM »
 
Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

I have a Virutex vacuum that works just fine with an auto on/off with my Kapex plugged into the front of the machine.  Although they are not matched as well as I would like (there is a second longer delay at startup) - and an even longer one when the Kapex is turned off.  They work mostly in harmony.  8)

Offline Dochawthorne

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2016, 08:09 AM »
My kapex has always been used with festool vac first ct22 and now ct36 I'm a professional carpenter that's why I spent the $ my tools make me $. My saw was about 4.5 years old and I was working out of town and it would barely run Sparks, smoke. I sent it in and festool pretty much rebuilt it and didn't charge me a dime I was very happy with service and that I had spent $ on that saw. Last week I was working out of town again and kapex did it again Sparks, smoke so I lost a day of work had to drive an hour to buy new makita and stand to finish the week and then an hour back to job. It has only been around a year sense my kapex was rebuilt. I'm taking it in this week so we will see what happens if it's going to be $900 to fix I will be selling 7 or 8 blades kapex stand and Fastcap out feeds and using the makita I just bought.
Kapex-TS55-PS300-RO125-ES125-RO90-OF1010-CXS-C15-C12-LR32-parallel guides-HL850-Midi-CT22-Traidsman set-MFT800-Rails+4-Systainers+alot

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3633
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2016, 05:13 PM »
Just about every shop vac has an automatic powerpoint on it these days. The Kapex has MMC electronics which is supposed to deliver power under load. I was under the impression that the festool vacs worked in harmony with MMC. Third party vacs MAY not. How many people would plug into a wall if the cheap third party vac has auto on in the offer?

I have a Virutex vacuum that works just fine with an auto on/off with my Kapex plugged into the front of the machine.  Although they are not matched as well as I would like (there is a second longer delay at startup) - and an even longer one when the Kapex is turned off.  They work mostly in harmony.  8)

^Yours is a shop I would like to see^... (between the variety of tools, and your work.)

Offline Acrobat

  • Posts: 464
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2016, 05:57 PM »
Sent mine in for a service about a year or so ago, as it was not cutting correctly at mating 45's, and the base is not flat to the sides and the dust extraction is not what i was led to believe. I still have to do a clean up.  Motor is and has always been fine.
Nearly always hooked up to a festool vac.
I really like using this saw but I'm a DIYer so it isn't getting a thrashing as a full on job site everyday use saw would. Had it a few years now.
Don't wake me, I'm livin' the dream!

Online Huxleywood

  • Posts: 121
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2016, 06:31 PM »


[/quote]


FWIW...The only manufacturing group that is vertically integrated is the mechanical watch industry. Rolex in particular, which means each and every part is produced in-house so that they have total control over every part that hits the production floor. This is an extremely costly process and thus why 99% of the manufacturing facilities do not follow this example.


[/quote]

Don't forget Grand Seiko, even more in-house than Rolex, down to producing their own lubricants and ink to print their manuals.  But in any event, highly vertical integration only works on either a massive scale or very high margin items like Veblen goods.  Rolex is somewhat both since they produce more mechanical watches than any other manufactrer (save possibly the Chines cheapy market) and GS is most likely a halo product sold at very low or no margin.  The higher end watches can't support this level of vertical integration.

Honestly, if it weren't for the "motor issue" I would probably own a Kapex but not making a living with it and mainly using a CSMS to break down lumber it would be a mere luxury, while not against that sort of thing in my shop the niggling of a potential motor meltdown keeps me from replacing my Milwaukee when the Kapex can't do the jobs I ask of a CSMS any better.  Now if I made a living with it making precision cuts on site I think I would probably roll the dice, just the difference in weight hauling it in and out would be enough to pay the roughly 50 cents a work day over the course of the 3 year warranty. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2016, 07:30 PM »
...the niggling of a potential motor meltdown keeps me from replacing my Milwaukee when the Kapex can't do the jobs I ask of a CSMS any better.


Nothing wrong with the Milwaukee slider, I've used one for over 20 years with a Forrest blade and never had an issue. The only reason I switched to Kapex is because as I get older, the Milwaukee gets heavier and clumsier.  [eek]

FWIW...the Milwaukee has cut wood, plastic, aluminum, 1/2" thick copper, brick, cement board strips and some steel and she still rocks with the original armature, field coils and brushes.

Come on Festool...you can do better...over the last 6-8 years, materials have improved, manufacturing methods have improved, FEA analysis along with QA analysis have improved, so where are the stumbling blocks?  Just camp on the vendors' doorstep and don't accept anything less than a viable answer for the Kapex electrical motor issues.

Hey Festool, think of it this way...it's only your manufacturing reputation that's at risk.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 08:35 PM by Cheese »

Offline T. Ernsberger

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2016, 08:02 PM »
Im definitely considering the Kapex.   I am really worried about the motor issues that I have read about on FoG and Festool hasn't said anything to reassure me that the motor will last.   I will be using the Kapex everyday and don't want a $1400 paper weight.  My miter saw just died the other day and I'm using my back up.  My plan was to buy myself a new miter saw for Christmas.   Not sure what I'm going to do. 

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7541
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2016, 08:25 PM »
I have a ~4 year zero issue DIY use 240V KAPEX.

I love the KAPEX features, but I'd probably look to something different if I was setting up a fixed mitre station .. as a portable with the UG cart it's a winner on features.

Price and longevity always have to be factored against productivity if it's a business (or personal cost saving) application .. and against enjoyment or if it's for pleasure.

Looking into some of the patterns ... a reasonable number of failures across the globe would be expected. The seemingly high number of US 110V failures appear to have impacted a cross section of machines that could very well relate to a vendor component failure (I say this due to the very reliable testimony of several long term 110V KAPEX users on this forum having zero issues).

We won't know the facts unless Festool share them and we may never know.

If you were to buy a 110V KAPEX in the US right now I'd highly doubt that you'd get anything other that exceptional service if you had an issue.

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2016, 09:37 PM »
Is it worth spending a large amount of money on a saw that might be a 50/50 chance of being a lemon? I can't justify the repair at this point. I own a very large and expensive paper weight, any buyers? No one knows the real numbers but Festool. If this was a safety issue with the saw there would be no problem. Recall! No one gets hurt from a motor issue... well only our wallet. 

Offline cabinetman803

  • Posts: 33
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2016, 09:24 PM »
No motor problems here.  I bought my Kapex about 4 years ago and have run it with my CT26 the whole time.  Had to send the saw back once because the saw head would go down with the cut but would not spring back up.  Had to manually lift it back up. 
Fast forward a year later and noticed that my miters weren't quite right.  The "Stop" (part 103) on Ekat is not linear.  Called the service department and was told I need to send it in.  "Probably a user issue"  I guess my cabinet shop is so hot in the summer time that it bent a cast metal part.   [scared]
Since i'm past the warranty, I get to be without a saw and shell out a couple hundred dollars to get it fixed.
Other than that, I love the saw. 
I am not a rocket surgeon.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 258
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2016, 03:54 AM »
Is it worth spending a large amount of money on a saw that might be a 50/50 chance of being a lemon?
My Domino XL burned out after making ~1k mortices. Why would I get another since they are 100% lemons (deducting from the sample size of the one I had).  [embarassed]

Seriously: can we please stop pulling numbers out of thin air?

Find someone trustworthy here on the forum, then each and everyone having had a problem with the Kapex can supply a photo of the serial number tag (this contains the product#, serial number and production date) and copies of the invoice (purchase date and location) and repair bill from service (even when it's 0.00, since it lists what has been done). That one could then build some statistics about all them to look for correlation (bad batch when produced, problems related to a certain kind only, whatever).

Simply stating some made-up numbers without any relation to reality isn't helpful.

Offline antss

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2016, 07:14 PM »
Gregor - seems the whole point of this thread is to give some sort quantification to the group.

No other Festool has the sort of complaints that the 110v Kapex does.  If dominos start failing in significant numbers , I'm sure we will hear about it.  I am assuming yours was fixed under warranty ?  If you had to pay for the repair and it cost you 50% of the tool's cost or more - would you be happy ?

Additionally, if there was an alternative to domino and it cost half as much and lasted twice to ten times as long as your domino - would you be happy then ?

This is why people on this side of the pond are unhappy.  Kapex dying early does not seem to be a fluke, or isolated incident. This saw is very expensive in comparison to the competition and a 3-5 year lifespan does not reflect well on a company that positions themselves as the top of the pile.  Festool has cryptically hinted there may be an issue but has not been forthcoming with details in a timely manner. So , there does appear to be a smoking gun.

Even if the problems are an outlier, the perception is that this saw does not last anywhere near its price tag would suggest - which is the most expensive priced saw of its type in this market. 

Offline Johncarlo

  • Posts: 55
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2016, 09:25 PM »
Gregor, please read the entire paragraph. No one knows the real numbers but Festool as I said! The only number I know is I have a $3000 saw and stand collecting dust. There are many on this forum talking about the repair dying after about a year. If you think about that... the amount of saw issues must be high with the repair failing. I have no problem paying for the repair because I'm out of warranty.  The only thing I would like to know is that there is a proper fix for this debacle.

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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3633
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2016, 03:36 AM »
Gregor does have a point. But at least the 50/50 is within the bounds of reason, which is a probability bounded by zero and 1.

Offline Gregor

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2016, 08:25 AM »
But at least the 50/50 is within the bounds of reason, which is a probability bounded by zero and 1.
You can, in practice, have a defect rate of >100% in case the replacement(s) also fail, something I personally experienced with a certain harddrive vendor.

Any % numbers thrown around here are being estimates based on a data set that is massively biased toward the cases having a problem with the product (as I tried to illustrate through my completely bullshit statistic that I solely based on my one defective device), they're not only useless but IMHO contraproductive.

My suggestion would be, instead of continuing an endless speculation in an echo-chamber, to collect hard (and proveable) facts as an effective base for any further discussion with the supplier in question. Which, in my experience, works better toward archiving a positive reaction (or change of behaviour) from a company as compared to an unsubstantiated approach.

Offline Holmz

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2016, 08:52 AM »
I Agree

Offline antss

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Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2016, 09:05 AM »
Gregor - talking and speculating is not useless from the perspective of those with failed motors.

It puts pressure on the manuf. to solve the problem - which seems to be at a standstill here. 

I've seen the same thing happen with a German auto maker that stonewalled replacing a defective , but very expensive part on a very limited run. It's a sound financial play from a risk management perspective because the individual rarely has the resources to challenge the mother ship. And, when the amt. of  owners is small they can't avail themselves to a class action that an attorney will front.

That's where a media campaign - especially social media can have some teeth. Everyone researches everything these days . If the first few hits are how your product sucks because it's blowing up or failing or the brakes don't work or it fails shortly after the warranty expires - that gets managements attention.

Even if the underlying claim is untrue.

Offline Dochawthorne

  • Posts: 27
  • Live life by the two tear theory
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2016, 09:59 PM »
OK got my kapex back it took 1 week and they replaced the armature and brushes basically everything they did 1 year and 4 months ago.  The best part is it was all covered under warranty, I was not charged a dime again. I'm very happy again and I love the saw but now still debating on selling it because I don't know if this is going to happen again in a year and a half? I use my miter saw more than anything else and need to know it's going to work for me. Right now I could sell it for good money but if this happens again and I find out it's going to cost me $900 to fix it, which I would not do, then I'll just have a used stand and blades that I couldn't sell for as much.
Kapex-TS55-PS300-RO125-ES125-RO90-OF1010-CXS-C15-C12-LR32-parallel guides-HL850-Midi-CT22-Traidsman set-MFT800-Rails+4-Systainers+alot

Offline Dogger

  • Posts: 1
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2016, 06:39 PM »
I own two kapex on stands and four vacuums. I had noticed one saw on site had developed a very loud whine and decided to bring the second saw to site to replace the whining saw and for that day we would use two saws on site. The second saw died on site after an hour. so now it has to go back and the whining saw needs to go as well. One is 4 and the other 2. I will not pay much to fix them. The spring in both of mine quit doing their job right away and we always had to lift saw after each cut. We always use the CT26 with the saws. I have 3 and one 33. The 33 needs to be shipped as well.

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 439
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2016, 07:16 PM »
Gregor - talking and speculating is not useless from the perspective of those with failed motors.

It puts pressure on the manuf. to solve the problem - which seems to be at a standstill here. 

I've seen the same thing happen with a German auto maker that stonewalled replacing a defective , but very expensive part on a very limited run. It's a sound financial play from a risk management perspective because the individual rarely has the resources to challenge the mother ship. And, when the amt. of  owners is small they can't avail themselves to a class action that an attorney will front.

That's where a media campaign - especially social media can have some teeth. Everyone researches everything these days . If the first few hits are how your product sucks because it's blowing up or failing or the brakes don't work or it fails shortly after the warranty expires - that gets managements attention.

Even if the underlying claim is untrue.

Well if it helps, after reading through this thread I would not be inclined to buy a Kapex.  Not that I'm in the market, as I currently have a beastly sized Bosch 12" that is a shop fixture and has just worked for 10 years.  I keep it tuned up, with good blades, and it returns the favor with good cuts.  Given that experience, the Kapex experience seems pretty frightening.

Offline Spiff

  • Posts: 107
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2016, 07:57 PM »
Attention Festool:
I AM in the market for a Kapex and was very close to spending £1,400 on the full kit.  But knowing the issues that exist I will not part with my precious money because I just cannot afford the risk of problems and downtime.  Confidence is important, and the Kapex does not currently give me it, sadly  [sad] I suspect many others feel the same way. 

I'd have loved to buy a Kapex but I'm going to have to buy a Metabo Xact SYM instead.

Over to you Festool...

Offline Spiff

  • Posts: 107
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2016, 08:07 PM »
I meant to say also - the Metabo has a brushless motor, which theoretically has a longer service life.  There are no brushes to wear out, this arrangement creates a lot less heat in the armature (no arcing) and less current is used, again creating less heat in the windings.  Maybe Festool ought to consider a switch to a brushless motor for the Kapex too.  Might just solve the reported issues...

Offline Festoolfootstool

  • Posts: 2076
  • The trouble with Bob is its all about Bob
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2016, 03:50 AM »
Attention Festool:
I AM in the market for a Kapex and was very close to spending £1,400 on the full kit.  But knowing the issues that exist I will not part with my precious money because I just cannot afford the risk of problems and downtime.  Confidence is important, and the Kapex does not currently give me it, sadly  [sad] I suspect many others feel the same way. 

I'd have loved to buy a Kapex but I'm going to have to buy a Metabo Xact SYM instead.

Over to you Festool...

Spiff it's festool that you should have no confidence in, as they refuse to stand behind their products.
Just stating they will be repaired within the three years period is very telling.
Even all the guys on the gravy train and the fanboys have stoped trying to defend the kapex and have disappeared.
It will be replaced shortly with a new model.then all the old models will be completely worthless .
If the milk turns out to be sour, I ain't the kind of **** to drink it.......

Why do Festool accessories only have a two month guarantee here in the UK ?

Offline john5mt

  • Posts: 81
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2016, 05:50 PM »
Ive had my saw since 2012 only time ive had to send mine is was the sliding fence starting hanging up a few weeks into use. Still my daily saw.
Smoking the green crack

Offline Whatsupdoc

  • Posts: 7
Re: KAPEX Poll regarding motor
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2017, 11:14 AM »
I posted the following on another thread regarding my Kapex saws.

I own 2 Kapex saws and love most of their features although I have had issues.  The compound dial is hands down the most practical I have ever used.  In my opinion, the accuracy is worth the extra cost combined with it's light weight.  The plastic handle on the back that you lift up to disengage the compound lock however, has it's drawbacks.  I have replaced 3 of the plastic hinges.  They always seem to break at the most inconvenient times like there really is a good time.  I keep a supply of no less than two on hand now for back up.  They are cheap and relatively quick to put on.   Now the bummer, I have had two motors go out.  The first was on a brand new saw less than a month old, the second was three days ago on that saw's replacement which was just over a year old.  I just boxed it up tonight to ship off.  My original saw is still going strong except for brushes replaced at just over 3 years old.  I purchased it in 2012.  I am hesitant to buy another because of the motor issue.  I routinely have 2 kapex's and one 12 inch Milwaukee scms set up on a trim job.  My guys will always default to the kapex unless they are cutting large crown or tall base standing up.  I have been doing high end finish work for nearly 25 years so I've got to use all the other colors of saws for reference.
2 Kapex120, Ets125, RO125,Df700, Df500,ts75,ts55,Of1010,Ro90,Ras115,Dts400,Ct36,Ct26,SysLight,Cxs drill,Mft3,Lr32,FS800,FS1400,FS1900,FS2700,FS1400/2LR32,FS2424/2LR32