Author Topic: Short review of countersinks.  (Read 39528 times)

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Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Short review of countersinks.
« on: August 08, 2010, 06:48 AM »
During my recent holiday I had the chance to call into Axminster?s  Nuneaton  store, they claim to have the biggest Festool display in the UK and I can well believe it. It was [jawdrop] ing.


While there I just had to buy some accessories for my growing collection. ;D
I needed to get a replacement 4mm bit for the one that comes with the T15 kit as I snapped the last one when it hit a hidden snapped off screw! [mad]
They just happened to be out of stock of the spares so I got the HSS4CE/MSET (493423)




This is okay as I have installed a brad point bit in the other one already. [big grin]

Then my eye caught the countersinks. Now when perusing the on-line catalogue they all look the same size and all look to be on the expensive side, leading one to stick to what is in use already.
I was pleasantly surprised at the size of the drill/countersink with depth stop. BSTA HS3.5mmCE (492523) The AA size battery is for scale purposes, as these are the same size worldwide, (it does not require a battery to use [laughing]).



A closer look revealed the thought gone into them and some nice engineering.The drill bit is adjustable, by using the supplied allen key and releasing it via the grub screw in the countersink part. This is accessed through one of the two holes in the moulded plastic depth stop. The Festool Blue depth stop rotates freely but stays in a fixed position on the shaft. Adjustment of the countersink is via the grub screw above the depthstop. There are lats milled onto both countersink and drill bit parts for the grubscrew, this negates the need to overtighten them and possibly damage the grub screw or allen wrench or both ( I think we've all been there!  [wink] )



I also got both snail type countersinks to replace my existing countersinks (though I'll hang on to them for the odd occasion I need to adjust hinges), so I can save on changing chucks over all the time, I know with the system on the chucks it?s not that arduous to do, it?s more the tightening and untightening of the chuck to fit each bit that takes time.



A test piece with each tool in front of the relevant hole.



You can hopefully see how the non-Festool ones tend to chatter, and to be fair and balanced in my remarks , I used to have a snail type by another company that was as good as the QLS ones and that cost as much as them, it was removed from my care some time ago. [sad]  However, it would not have fitted the centrotec chuck , and that is the point of my purchases.

I will be getting the 4.5mm BSTA next paycheck, I?ve promised myself that and will probably add a few more of the drill bits to the order. I am really impressed with the quality of these often overlooked bits of kit.

What I?d like to see are a couple of larger sizes of the BSTA range, say a 5.5mm and 6.5mm version with longer drill bits for window and door frame construction.

Thanks for looking in.

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline speed

  • Posts: 302
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 07:36 AM »
nice review, just looked at the price [eek] not much change from 100 gbp?

if you are going for more bits it maybe worth looking for a 07/08 centrotec sys set, they sometimes pop up on ebay for <200 it would work out cheaper than paying 6+ gbp per bit
has made the change. now 100%  T-loc :)

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 07:59 AM »
Thanks, Speed.
Oh, I spent more than that  [big grin] I also got a new blade for the TS55 and some other non-festool odds and ends I wanted. [laughing] ;D
The problem with the centrotec kit is the amount of stuff included that I will never use.
Buyng the drill bits in the packets means you get two spare drill bits, not so when you buy the boxed set or the systainer with the boxed set.
I did the math and think it's worth buying them this way, along with any driver bits that I will use.

The answer of course would be a Pick & Mix Centrotec systainer [laughing] so we could get what best suits our work.
Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 08:21 AM »
Another fan of the BSTA HS here.  Nice review, it's certainly obvious from the pictures but it's worth mentioning the other brand counter sinks were used and the Festool ones were new.  That can account for some of the difference in results.  How sharp are the use count sinks?
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 09:03 AM »
Brice, the two silver ones are little used, just the cutter pattern is (in my view) wrong for solid wood, they work better in MDF or Brass [wink] the one at the end is well used but honestly always performed less than I'd hoped (and I had a whole set of the beggars, thinking they were a good idea! These were the ones I used most, due to drilling the clearance hole and countersink in one operation.)
I know better now [big grin]
Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline EcoFurniture

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 11:09 AM »
Thank you very much for your review! I was thinking about getting one for quite some time.... Yes, they are very expensive, but when it comes to quality work, it just looks way better when all the countersunk holes look the same.

Cheers,
Andreas

Offline richard.selwyn

  • Posts: 631
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 04:22 PM »
I use the Festool countersink almost daily.  It is excellent - my only criticism is that even the smaller one of the two has a drill bit which is a little on the large side for some jobs. (Ditto their hinge centring drill which is just too big for me)
Richard

Offline woodguy7

  • Posts: 2727
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 04:44 PM »
I really want to get the combined drill/countersink but just cant get over the high price.  Is it worth it ?

Woodguy
If its made of wood, i can make it smaller.
Shirt size medium
p.s- ive started reading these too

Offline justinmcf

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 05:23 AM »
i am currently in the process of installing a hardwood deck around a pool area.

i am using 75mm stainless steel batten screws.

the generic brand countersink only comes in 6mm and is leaving the batten screw loose until it starts screwing into the pine joist.

i think the festool bsta hs d5 would be perfect for this application. (i think the d5 stands for 5mm diameter drill bit.)

has anyone used the festool countersinks for 75mm batten screws in decking?

are the drill bits easily replaced with any non festool drill bits, or will i have to buy festool only?

cheers, justin.

 

Offline josephgewing

  • Posts: 115
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2010, 10:44 AM »
Another vote for the 2 Festool BSTA counter sinks.  The small one is ideal for #6 screws and the large one works well for #8 screws, altho the pilot hole does not fit as snugly.  Chatter is nil and I have made 100's of counter sink holes without noticing any degradation of sharpness.

Joe Ewing
Las Cruces, NM
Joe Ewing

Offline Wood_Junkie

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 11:44 AM »
I really want to get the combined drill/countersink but just cant get over the high price.  Is it worth it ?

Woodguy

Maybe... barely... probably.

I like it a lot.  Saves a lot of time versus changing bits.  I used to use a Snappy combo countersink/tapered pilot bit.  But there's no depth stop.  I have used the tape-on-the-bit method before, but it's not truly a precision method.  I have an aftermarket stop collar that fits it, but then it won't fit back into its case holder.  Ergo, attaching and removing the stop collar.

The BSTA really is the ultimate:  one step, precision depth, fantastic results.  I only got it about 3 months ago, and I've used it a lot in cedar, and also in red and white oak, black walnut, and hard maple.  Nothing but excellent, chatter free holes.

As is usual, I grimaced a bit when I bought it.  But, its the first one I reach for when I know the screw will be visible and I want quality results.
Based on recommendations from here, I got the 3.5mm to use with #8 screws (most common choice when using screws).  The screws fit snugly, but I haven't had any splitting occur.

Frankly, if you're burying the screw and are going to cover it with a plug or false tenon (so depth is not a main consideration), or some such, I'd recommend the Snappy or Lee Valley sets.

Offline Frank-Jan

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 12:32 PM »
Justin,
You are correct in your assumption of the 5mm drill. I can't see why another drill bit wouldn't fit, and there are no flat spots like on the replacements for the centrotec hss bits (because you can change the depth.

I have the the 5 mm version because it was part of the 2008 centrotec systainer, I haven't used it for decking because when we install decking (which we rarely do), we use screws that don't require predrilling (they have a self-drilling tip, and the head has ribs underneath so it also countersinks, if I recall correctly it also has some colored stuff on the tip that acts as lubricant)

But I really liked how it worked so I ordered the 3.5mm version aswell, which I use regularly and like a lot. I also have the "snail" type countersinks, but I get mixed results with those, I think they are only meant for bare wood.

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 03:05 PM »
Justin, the 5mm counter sink bit is not a standard bit it a short series tungsten tipped bit ( from what I saw) for drilling stopped holes for fixing Euro hinge carcase plates and soft close fittings that use those short, almost grub screw like, screws that need a 5mm pilot hole.

You may be able to use a longer standard drill bit in the main body by creating a flat for the grub screw with a Dremel and an appropriate die grinder bit.
A flat is preferable as otherwise the risk of slippage or damage to the fixing screw/allen wrench is very real, and flippin annoying [wink].

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Frank-Jan

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 03:34 PM »
Rob, Justin was asking about the BSTA HS D5 CE, which is the 5 mm version of the drill/countersink with depth stop from your opening post.

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 03:51 PM »
Yes, undertood that, but the one I saw in Axminster Nuneaton did not have a drill bit like the 3.5 or 4.5 mm BSTA countersinks, it was similar to a TCT brad point bit. I thought it a bit strange at the time as it had a depth stop but no countersink part, there were the 5mm spring loaded self centering bits further along the display.
Please tell me I am not going prematurely senile, I'd ask Suzy, but she was busy checking out the Domino ( may be an early Xmas pressie  [drooling] )

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Frank-Jan

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 04:20 PM »
Rob, you are right aswell. I just looked it up on the Dutch festool site... (because I thought the drill/countersink depthstop thing only existed in 3.5 and 5, not in 4.5). The current versions are indeed 3.5 and 4.5, and the accessory you describe is called BTA HW D5 CE link

I couldn't navigate to the 5mm version anymore by means of the consumable list of a cordless drill, (only 3.5 and 4.5mm) but if I searched the site for the productname it still showed up : link and the productnumber of the 5 mm version is  496451

Offline justinmcf

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2010, 04:42 PM »
thanks rob and frank jan.

the countersink i have seen on the australian festool site is 496451.

i assume that it is still available here, otherwise they would not advertise it.

hopefully i can pick one up this morning.

thanks for the link to the other 5mm countersink for kitchen carcasses.

i need that one too!!

justin.

Offline Alex

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2010, 05:59 PM »
Yes, they are very expensive, but when it comes to quality work, it just looks way better when all the countersunk holes look the same.

I agree. I have the 3.5 and 4.5 mm countersinks now and they are the best I've ever used. You get such a nice, perfectly round hole, it's amazing.

my only criticism is that even the smaller one of the two has a drill bit which is a little on the large side for some jobs. (Ditto their hinge centring drill which is just too big for me)

I agree also ...... I want a 2.5 mm countersink as well. I use 3 mm and 3.5 mm screws a lot.

I just got the hinge centering bit and I found it's exactly the right size for doing window hinges. Only think the drill bit itself was a bit short. It only goes like 2.5 cm / 1 inch deep.

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 12:03 PM »
Frank-Jan, Thanks I'm not going doo-lally then [laughing] [laughing].

The 5mm with countersink does not show on the Festool UK site  [sad]

Alex, I believe the self centering bit you called the hinge centreing bit is actually designed for cabinet work where the fittings drawer runners, hinges etc. are fixed with those stubby (short) screws, so the drill bit does not need to be all that long. It would be nice if Festool made one for ordinary door hinges, say for 3" and 4" butts, the ones available over here have too much slop in them and when the wood swarth gets packed into them(due to poor design) the bit snaps!

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline neeleman

  • Posts: 1187
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 12:40 PM »
Hi Rob-GB

But the 5 mm with depth-stop and countersink does excist in the UK BSTA HW D5 (496451).

Look at Miles Tool Shop.

Strange enough there is also and only a D5 drill with depth-stop but without countersink BTA HW D5 (492522).

« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 12:44 PM by neeleman »
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Offline Guy Ashley

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  • Furniture & Cabinet Maker/Joiner
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 01:01 PM »
Frank-Jan, Thanks I'm not going doo-lally then [laughing] [laughing].

The 5mm with countersink does not show on the Festool UK site  [sad]

Alex, I believe the self centering bit you called the hinge centreing bit is actually designed for cabinet work where the fittings drawer runners, hinges etc. are fixed with those stubby (short) screws, so the drill bit does not need to be all that long. It would be nice if Festool made one for ordinary door hinges, say for 3" and 4" butts, the ones available over here have too much slop in them and when the wood swarth gets packed into them(due to poor design) the bit snaps!
Rob.

Spot on Rob!!

I make and fit hardwood doors and the ones you refer to as snapping make me "Snappy"  [tongue] when it happens on site as you spend an age digging the broken bit out, redowling the hole, redrilling it with a normal brad bit.

The springs go very sloppy very quickly even if only used on softwood frames so come on Festool, those of us who use your kit are giving you a heads up on a piece of kit that would be "snapped up" if you offered it.

Good chip clearance, strong spring, strong non deflecting drill bit, adjustable depth and a in a variety of sizes.

Too much to ask?
DIPLOMACY:

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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 04:39 PM »
.......It would be nice if Festool made one for ordinary door hinges, say for 3" and 4" butts, the ones available over here have too much slop in them and when the wood swarth gets packed into them(due to poor design) the bit snaps!

Rob.

I completely agree.  I've got a few Vix brand self centering bits that are nice but a Centrotec version would be great.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Guy Ashley

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 05:42 PM »
Brice/Rob

These look like they are good quality and perhaps fit the bill, but these are NAIUK, but have found them on Ebay US,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-Pcs-S-E-Vick-5-64-13-64-Self-Centering-Vix-Bits-/220615609329?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335db70bf1

Brice are they better than the ones that "snap"?

Guy
DIPLOMACY:

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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 07:30 PM »
Guy, the Vix-bit brand is my first choice, but that price on that Ebay set seems high to me.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline bonesbr549

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2010, 11:55 PM »
At a trade show a few years back I bought a set of snappy bits.  Started with some countersinks then purchased there centerbits (vix style).  I've been very pleased.  The quality si outstanding.   

http://www.mcfeelys.com/search.aspx?q=snappy&src=M8GLPTA&s_kwcid=TC|4266|snappy%20bits||S|p|6679048405&gclid=CMyt76nCsKMCFQTXnAodVXxh5w


Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 766
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2010, 07:16 AM »
Does anyone know if the Festool countersink has carbide cutters? I have been using the Snappy carbide cutter countersinks and have had very clean cuts in all materials, just no depth stop.

John

Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2010, 11:23 AM »
Does anyone know if the Festool countersink has carbide cutters? I have been using the Snappy carbide cutter countersinks and have had very clean cuts in all materials, just no depth stop.

John

They are not carbide, John, but do cut very nicely.  [big grin]

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Alex

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2010, 03:57 PM »
Does anyone know if the Festool countersink has carbide cutters? I have been using the Snappy carbide cutter countersinks and have had very clean cuts in all materials, just no depth stop.

No centrotec stuff has any carbide cutters, but it isn't standard HSS either. You can tell by the touch and feel and sound of it that it's extremely hard metal, and every centrotec piece, be it a wood or a metal drill bit or a countersink, gives you extremely clean cuts. I've never used or seen any better stuff.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2010, 04:12 PM »
At a trade show a few years back I bought a set of snappy bits.  Started with some countersinks then purchased there centerbits (vix style).  I've been very pleased.  The quality si outstanding...   


Snappy makes some nice stuff but I prefer the Vix-Bit brand. For one thing the sleeve that centers the bit is more round and tapers more than other brands and this gives the bits a better fit in a great range of hinges and other hardware.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Guy Ashley

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2010, 04:27 PM »
Any of you on that side of the pond know of a Vix bit retailer who is likely to ship to the UK?

Anyone else use these Vix bits and can recommend them?

The usual stuff here in the UK are imports from the Far East whereas the Vix bits are US made and so I would imagine the quality control is better.
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Offline Deansocial

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2010, 04:31 PM »
Does anyone know if the Festool countersink has carbide cutters? I have been using the Snappy carbide cutter countersinks and have had very clean cuts in all materials, just no depth stop.

No centrotec stuff has any carbide cutters, but it isn't standard HSS either. You can tell by the touch and feel and sound of it that it's extremely hard metal, and every centrotec piece, be it a wood or a metal drill bit or a countersink, gives you extremely clean cuts. I've never used or seen any better stuff.


is it HCS then?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2010, 04:48 PM »
Guy,

I have used the vix bits for years.  Here is a link:  http://www.woodcraft.com/Search/Search.aspx?query=vix

If you need some assistance with shipping, these guys should be easily shipped.  Just let me via PM if I can help you.

Peter

Offline Guy Ashley

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2010, 05:05 PM »
Peter

Thank you, the set of three I need, a good price and they take Paypal and ship to the UK.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=7427&ss=b357d284-ed48-4cc3-a718-2b79f9833aea

No more breakages I hope.

Thanks again

Guy
DIPLOMACY:

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Offline Alex

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2010, 06:04 PM »
Does anyone know if the Festool countersink has carbide cutters? I have been using the Snappy carbide cutter countersinks and have had very clean cuts in all materials, just no depth stop.

No centrotec stuff has any carbide cutters, but it isn't standard HSS either. You can tell by the touch and feel and sound of it that it's extremely hard metal, and every centrotec piece, be it a wood or a metal drill bit or a countersink, gives you extremely clean cuts. I've never used or seen any better stuff.


is it HCS then?

I have no idea. Festool never gives any specs. By the way, I've never even heard of HCS steel either.  [blink]

Offline RonWen

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2010, 06:05 PM »
Good information & good review.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2010, 06:15 PM »
HCS just means high carbon steel

Off the web:

The HCS steel Standards are: AISI D6 ; W nr. 1.2436 ; JIS SKD2

Elements and composition

Iron = about 83%

Carbon = 2.05%

Chromium = 12.7 %

Manganese = 0.8%

Silicon = 0.3%

Others = 1.1%

High performance tool steel with high wear resistance and toughness.

Hardness approx. HB = 240
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 06:19 PM by nickao »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Alex

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2010, 06:27 PM »
Ah, thanks for the explanation nick. But I still don't have any idea what the magic ingredient is. But it works.

Offline justinmcf

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2010, 05:35 AM »
i just received my 5mm countersink this evening.

i look forward to using it tomorrow. i think the maximum drill depth of 28mm will be an issue with a 75mm batten screw.
i will know more tomorrow.

justin.

Offline johnb

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2010, 03:14 PM »
I have Famag countersinks which are tct and adjustable but no depth stop. I have 90 and 180 degree versions, brilliant, best quality I have used.

Offline Deansocial

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2010, 04:01 PM »
high carbon steel is harder than hss but not as hard as tungsten

Offline tdfiver

  • Posts: 92
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2010, 02:51 PM »
I'd love a 3.5 or 4mm hinge centre as the 5mm is a bit big although the quality is really good..  I have lost count of the cheapo types that I've binned for either falling to bits or jamming up as they don't clear the chaff.

I have the 08 Centrtec outfit and find it very good, the drill bits are really good quality, although it could do with a few blank spaces for hinge centres and countersinks. With a bit of shuffling around its possible to store a few extra bits in there as well.

 It is really handy to take drill and Centrotec together on the job rather than run back and forth to my van for drill, screw driver bits etc. That's what I love about Festool they seem to have a system for all of their gear.

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2010, 03:04 PM »
Rob, do you have any pictures of this store and their huge display?  Would love to check it out.  Always looking to improve.
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Offline Guy Ashley

  • Posts: 662
  • Furniture & Cabinet Maker/Joiner
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2010, 03:26 PM »
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:29 PM by Guy Ashley »
DIPLOMACY:

"The art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades in such a way that they positively look forward to the journey"

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2010, 03:38 PM »
Sean

Try this link

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tool-centre--nuneaton-warwickshire-artlstorenuneaton/

Also Healey's Tools have a good display which is shown on this link

 http://www.healystool.co.uk/catalog/new_festool_shop.php

Guy

Awesome, thanks Guy!  We just redid our display yesterday.  Pretty psyched on it!  I'll try to load up pictures
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Offline Rob-GB

  • Posts: 1072
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2010, 04:44 AM »
Sean, I don't have photo's, sorry. In terms of floor space it is not huge, but they do have pretty much all that Festool sell in the UK on display and in stock.
They even have the large boom arm that costs several thousand GBP! (you have to look up to see it as it is fixed to the back wall and reaches out across showroom.) The layout is well thought out and there is plenty of walk space between the displays and shelving units.
I am glad I don't live as close to it as the Sittingbourne Axi' as I would end up there most Saturday's and spend too much!

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline jvsteenb

  • Posts: 363
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2010, 01:15 PM »
The Festool Centrotec bradpoint bits "feel" like a very decent quality HSS-G but don't "look" like it.
Usually HSS-G ( a very high quality HSS substrate with a substantially heightened Cobalt content ) has a slightly bronze tint that develops during the tempering process.
As the tempering process has a negligeable affect on the sizing, HSS-G tools are usually tempered after grinding, the coloration serves as a distinction from "normal" lower grade HSS steels.
It is however entirely possible to (re) grind after tempering, that would leave a standard blank steel appearance.

HSS qualities vary wildly. Even steels that show a perfectly similar composition when analysed via mass-spectography, can vary in edge retention as much as 1000(!) percent...
It's all in the grainsize and temperature control.
Good HSS rocks! Bad HSS..... not so much. HSS is developed to significantly "up" the edge retention in higher temperatures.
That USED to mean "when drilling in steel and the likes" but who hasn't trashed a CV bit losing it's temper in hardwood? Especially high-silica species like Teak and the likes ?
The Festool Centrotec bradpoint bits are top-notch. Edge retention is super, even when "the goin' gets tough". This leads to lower cutting temperatures, and cleaner cuts.


Regards,

Job
TS55, OF1010, RO150, RTS400, PS300, T15+3, CTL22E, CMS-TS55+Basis5A (OF1010), MFT/3, MFS400/700, FS800-1080-1400-1900, Centrotec-SYS 09, DF 500 full set, some accessories :)

Offline Redfox

  • Posts: 182
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2010, 04:54 PM »
I use the 3,5mm adjustable countersink drill bit to help me in making precise assembly of loudspeakercabinets for a friend's rental-disco-something.
Works very nice and it seems more precise contrary to normal buy it Saturday-afternoon-stuff. So I'm satisfied.
Sometimes I use the two seperate countersinks when looking carefully at small narrow stuff that I have to keep control of. Very nice and sharp too. No marks or scruffs.

Cheers,
Jacques.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1832
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2010, 01:06 PM »
The Festool Centrotec bradpoint bits "feel" like a very decent quality HSS-G but don't "look" like it.
Usually HSS-G ( a very high quality HSS substrate with a substantially heightened Cobalt content ) has a slightly bronze tint that develops during the tempering process.
As the tempering process has a negligeable affect on the sizing, HSS-G tools are usually tempered after grinding, the coloration serves as a distinction from "normal" lower grade HSS steels.
It is however entirely possible to (re) grind after tempering, that would leave a standard blank steel appearance.

HSS qualities vary wildly. Even steels that show a perfectly similar composition when analysed via mass-spectography, can vary in edge retention as much as 1000(!) percent...
It's all in the grainsize and temperature control.
Good HSS rocks! Bad HSS..... not so much. HSS is developed to significantly "up" the edge retention in higher temperatures.
That USED to mean "when drilling in steel and the likes" but who hasn't trashed a CV bit losing it's temper in hardwood? Especially high-silica species like Teak and the likes ?
The Festool Centrotec bradpoint bits are top-notch. Edge retention is super, even when "the goin' gets tough". This leads to lower cutting temperatures, and cleaner cuts.


Regards,

Job


This is quite right. HSS is still high-carbon steel, but with alloys that make it more heat resistant. But in the end, these are very generic terms as Job has pointed out. It is a little bit like the old Crocodile Dundee line, "That's not a knife, this is a knife." Festool spec's a very high quality HSS that has pretty good edge retention at elevated temperatures, but the most important criteria for long life in any steel tool is keeping heat generation down, followed by avoiding mechanical shock like hitting a nail or concrete. We tend to think the cutting edge 'burns up' on these materials but it is really blunted by mechanical shock, and then the now dulled edge generates excess heat before we can react and shut it down. If one could catch the damage on the first impact it would look quite different than it does after two or three more revolutions. Hardness is only one variable in performance and not the most important in most cases.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 99
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 12:47 PM »
Can the Centrotec Drill bit with Countersink also do counterbores for holes that will be plugged?


thanks

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1832
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2018, 05:19 PM »
Can the Centrotec Drill bit with Countersink also do counterbores for holes that will be plugged?


thanks

In a word, no. I think a good way to create counterbores is to start the hole with a Brad point bit that matches the diameter of your plug. Drill to the depth you want for the plug and then drill the hole for the screw. You can make it as complicated as you want depending on the type of head on the screw, meaning whether it has a flat shoulder or a head that requires a countersink. If you have room a square shoulder screw will require less work as it can bear on the flat at the bottom of your plug diameter.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 335
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2018, 09:18 AM »
AA's aren't all the same size, there is quite some variation. The Sanyo Eneloops are a fair bit smaller than the GP 2700 AA's to the point that the latter don't fit an AA Maglite but the Eneloops do. Nominal size should be D14 x 50 [mm]  [tongue]

nice review, just looked at the price [eek] not much change from 100 gbp?

if you are going for more bits it maybe worth looking for a 07/08 centrotec sys set, they sometimes pop up on ebay for <200 it would work out cheaper than paying 6+ gbp per bit

For 100 GBP you get two of the 492523?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4344
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2018, 10:00 AM »
Can the Centrotec Drill bit with Countersink also do counterbores for holes that will be plugged?

I also follow the method that Greg outlined. 🙏   By drilling the recess for the plug first with a brad point drill, you now have a center for the pilot hole.  [big grin]  For screws, I just use Torx drive flat head screws manufactured by GRK or Spax.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 10:03 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3288
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2018, 09:49 AM »
@Rob-GB any changes in your opinion of Festool countersink bits?

Has the availability or range changed since this was first posted in 2010?

I will very shortly need to precisely drill and countersink hundreds of holes in 10mm custom bent acrylic panels for 5mm flathead screws and I want to line up the best tools for the job.

Any advise is appreciated!


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4344
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2018, 10:23 AM »

Has the availability or range changed since this was first posted in 2010?

I will very shortly need to precisely drill and countersink hundreds of holes in 10mm custom bent acrylic panels for 5mm flathead screws and I want to line up the best tools for the job.


Initially I really liked the Festool offerings, however after a little aluminum work I find they dull rapidly. I feel they're a wood only countersink. [sad]

I now use KEO zero flute countersinks for aluminum, plastic & brass. They're made from cobalt so they hold up really well. They're also cheaper than Festool, are made in the USA and come in 7 different sizes along with 4 different angles. The only downside is the traditional round shank.

https://www.mscdirect.com/FlyerView?pagelabel=200&search=45117488&contentPath=/sales-catalogs/big-book

For deeper countersinks, I've used spotting drills, they're a lot faster than a countersink and are more suited for the application. Specifically Hertel in cobalt with an 82ยบ angle. That's the same angle as a typical flat head machine screw.

https://www.mscdirect.com/FlyerView?pagelabel=181&search=59919027&contentPath=/sales-catalogs/big-book

The photos below show some dominos I made from 10mm x 20mm aluminum with a spotting drill used for the countersunk holes.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 12:10 PM by Cheese »

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 178
Re: Short review of countersinks.
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2018, 06:28 PM »
Although it doesn't feature a carbide countersink, I wonder how Wolfcraft's (a.k.a Reisser's) German-made 2544000 3.2-12mm depth-stopped countersink stacks up?



It receives decent reviews on Amazon.de and is also available via Amazon USA.

Then there are the various-sized Colt/Fisch/Riss French-made "Zeromark" versions:



Famag also sells individual and a set of non-TCT depth-stopped countersinks (the latter of which, like the Fisch design, utilizes a single interchangeable depth stop and different sizes of counter sinks/pilot bits). However, Famag doesn't manufacture them. Instead, I'm guessing Fisch does given that the design of the Zeromark is patented and the Famag-branded version - brass depth stop not withstanding - looks incredibly similar to the Zeromark. here's the relevant page in their latest catalog.

Alternatively, it might be possible to pair the correct size of the following Japanese-made Star-M depth stops (drill bits not included) with your existing countersink(s):



Either way, all of the above feature bearings that the stops spin on and are, depending on the make, about half (or, in the case of the Wolfcraft, even less than half) the cost of the Festool offerings. However, again, none feature carbide cutters. But, come to think of it, neither apparently do Festool's.

Amazon sells the Wolfcraft: https://www.amazon.com/Wolfcraft-2544000-3-2-12mm-Starter-Countersink/dp/B002OHNH16#customerReviews

...as does the folllowing eBay seller:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wolfcraft-2544000-3-2-12mm-Screw-Starter-with-Countersink-and-Depth-Stop/152732476385?epid=28012065012&hash=item238f90a3e1:g:m6QAAOSwrP9Z1783

The Colt & Riss offerings, however, are a little more difficult to find. There is one ebay.de seller that may, if asked, ship to the U.S.:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Colt-Terassenbohrer-Senker-Kpl-Kugelgelagert-4-6mm-Bohrsenker-n-Wahl/201961925985?hash=item2f05de6d61:m:mbDB8XJheuOMheROHm4cxgg

The differently named but identical product to the Colt version (known as the Risch Flooring Kit) - which is a nice idea since since it includes a single depth stop that can be fitted to any of the included countersinks - can be purchased from Dieter here:

https://www.fine-tools.com/terrassendielenbohrer.html

Also, according to the Colt website, there are two U.S. importers, though not sure if they stock the countersink. They are:

http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/

...and:

http://www.woodhat.com/

On the other hand, Star-M depth stops can be had at closeout pricing here.

As far as the market goes for depth-stopped countersinks that feature carbide cutters (and, in at least one case, carbide pilot bits) I know of a couple made in Australia options:

CARB-I-TOOL SMART TUNGSTEN CARBIDE - Numerous Australian eBay sellers are willing to ship to N.A. (examples).

[Pilot bit and counter sink are both TCT and the tool is listed as "impact ready"] Sutton Tools/P&N Quickbit TCT Cut-Smart - available via eBay here.

Finally, by far the least expensive carbide-tipped ("TCT") option (at least for those of us in N.A.) are the two versions (as available in multiple sizes) that are produced by the Israeli fabricator WPW Engineering and that are distributed by Amana Tool (and sold by ToolsToday and ToolsToday, Lee Valley and Amazon (and here), among others). Depending how one feels about about the goals of the BDS movement, I suppose these might possibly be considered an option.

I think that the version sold by festoolshop.ca under the brand "AtMac" is one and the same, albeit with the addition of a Centrotec shank.

 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 08:12 PM by TinyShop »