Author Topic: A warning to dealers..  (Read 22219 times)

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Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 12:28 PM »
There is always potential for abuse, but I don't think new ideas should be stifled because we're afraid of a few bad apples.

I travel for work (construction producer for home makeover TV), and there have been many a time when I needed to change the delivery address, sometimes even the delivery state!  It's a convenience for customers.

I don't think the dealers have too much to worry about, since you need a tracking number and a UPS login account to make the change.  If a thief has that information, they probably have a bunch of other info about you, too.  It's probably on par with the UPS guy leaving a package in front of your garage door and a thief wandering by and picking it up.



 In this case, not so, the thieves use their own email address, not the card holders. So tracking comes immediately to the thief. From there, they redirect to an address more suitable to where they can either have it delivered to a friend or be close by and simply wait for the package to arrive. If you know the usual UPS delivery times for that street it's easy pickings.

B
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Offline previouslyK119Phil

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2014, 01:51 PM »
Ouch.. multiple XLs stolen.... sorry for your loss Bob [crying]

I think I'll poke the elephant in the room with a thousand dollar cattle prod -- and of course I can only speak for K-119, but when an item gets stolen, it's a total loss for us.  UPS doesn't pay.  Whistling the State Farm tune doesn't make a guy appear out of thin air to make things right.  (I've tried)

K-119 is an old school retail store from the 70s.  I guess people back then had less sticky fingers, but as the new guy at the store trying to bring things online, this is definitely the very slippery slope I am still learning to navigate, and the very reason why I have yet to launch K-119's online store -- I'm terrified of the potential for fraud.

We do keep a log of serial numbers for all tools leaving the store, and report to manufacture on stolen items.  I vaguely recall that we may have recovered a stolen OF1400 when it made its way back to Festool for repair. 

But yea, shipping cost and fraud prevention are the two areas that apparently even the best (Bob and Sean) still struggle with :-\
Philip Sun
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Offline iamnothim

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2014, 02:10 PM »
I've done this with FedEx a couple times when I've had a couple missed delivery attempt tags on my door.
However the only option is to redirect to a FedEx store.

It's a great option and helps when I'm not going to be home.

The cost benefit of the UPS redirect service is way out of whack.
My reputation pre-deceases me.

Offline jimmylittle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2014, 02:26 PM »


In this case, not so, the thieves use their own email address, not the card holders

B

That is a crazy loophole for UPS to leave in the system!  It seems that if you want the option of changing shipping, you should need to be a registered UPS customer and all correspondence goes through the registered email address that is anonymous to the public.  The email and tracking number should match before UPS changes anything! 

It takes more effort to change a Craigslist posting, which does require verification of email and does provide anonymous email forwarding so the public can't see your real email, which is usually your login.

I had no idea it was that open wide.  That being said, I still do like and use the option.  It should require more verification, though.
Using a good tool to do a good project for a good client makes me feel good.  Remove any of the three and things aren\'t so fun anymore.

Online copcarcollector

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2014, 02:54 PM »
Bob (or Sean or Phil), this is more of a retailers question - with the fraudulent orders received, was there an AVS match on the credit card? It would seem that if there was a match, you should have a little more evidence on your side when that dreaded chargeback comes through. Just curious.

For those not in the know, AVS is an Address Verification used when processing credit cards, it matches the address and zip code provided on the order against your billing information. Its supposed to be one more level of security, especially for the retailer. Some retailers / processing systems will not finalize an order with an AVS mismatch.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2014, 02:59 PM »
Bob (or Sean or Phil), this is more of a retailers question - with the fraudulent orders received, was there an AVS match on the credit card? It would seem that if there was a match, you should have a little more evidence on your side when that dreaded chargeback comes through. Just curious.

For those not in the know, AVS is an Address Verification used when processing credit cards, it matches the address and zip code provided on the order against your billing information. Its supposed to be one more level of security, especially for the retailer. Some retailers / processing systems will not finalize an order with an AVS mismatch.

 Yes, their sure is AVS verification.  You can't place an order on my site without it.

Bob
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Offline Dovetail65

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2014, 03:07 PM »
For me there are options, a retailer does not have to use all or any of the checks. I use  3, some use none, some use more.

I use the (AVS)address, zip and 3 numbers on back of card, if ALL 3 don't pass then the buyer gets a message to try again.. I could also use phone number(to match card used on billing) if I wanted. BUT, my processor gives me the option to use ZERO checks, it's all up to me. XXX sites are required to use all checks, they have different rules for different businesses, at least my processor does.

I also have the option to ONLY ship to the address of the buyers card or the transaction gets denied, I don't use that option as many of my items go to job sites not the owners address.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:11 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline pyleg

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 03:35 PM »

  I would urge dealers here - and elsewhere, who use UPS, to ensure that they the shipper be notified if a package is being redirected or better yet, to not allow MY CHOICE as an option for their packages.

  Bob

I don't suppose it should influence your business decision, but I once had a circumstance where such a service would have been useful.  A high-end tool company had a problem with its internal database and had shipped an order to an old address I'd since changed on their website.  By the time I discovered this, it was the night before delivery, the company was closed for the night and no amount of begging UPS would get them to let me change the no signature delivery from my old address.  I ended up having to go to my old apartment and collect it from the street-facing stoop.  I potentially saved the company several hundred dollars but it was stressful.   

Offline Tinker

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2014, 03:50 PM »
From my standpoint if a dealer elects to prohibit address changes and that is not made very obvious to me at time of purchase and it is a circumstance where address change is needed I would be a VERY unhappy customer and would likely never purchase from that dealer again. As dealers you are also painfully aware that 1 unhappy customer will tell 7 to 9 other people. Depending on my travel schedule if notified at time of purchase could not be used I would simply purchase elsewhere.

I share this because you guys (Bob and Sean) are outstanding dealers and think you should be aware that your reactions to one problem (depending on how many UPS Choice members purchase from you) might cause unintended consequences. 

Thanks for all you do!
  Jack

In all fairness, if you take that 'tude, it should work both ways.  If you suspect you might chose to make an address change, you should let the dealer know in advance of your own possible intentions. If you plan on further dealings, perhaps giving out a list of the possible addresses you know you might use would be of help. (I am not in the retail business, nor do I have any such intentions, but I can see their problems as presented with this conversation)

These dealers are sending dozens of orders out every day.  Every time they send an order, they are taking a risk, maybe even all of the risk.  A couple of misdirected $1000 items in a week could really mess up a man's day.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Online copcarcollector

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2014, 04:13 PM »
I ship with or without AVS verification, but I am not selling $1K Dominos, still it's a risk. I just asked my Fedex rep to turn off customer initiated redirects though. Honestly I had never considered this until this topic---

And you US based dealers may be "lucky" in a way, I ship worldwide, which opens up a whole new set of issues about delivery, damage, chargebacks---- fun!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:24 PM by copcarcollector »

Offline SoonerFan

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2014, 08:39 PM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...

I don't ship much but when I do it goes FedEx.  Better, faster  and cheaper results at least for me.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2014, 09:18 PM »

Offline jtwood

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2014, 11:40 PM »
I have been a UPS My Choice customer for several years, and it is valuable to me.  I live in a remote area where I don't get mail service.  I have a mail delivery box at a store that is 15 miles away from me that also accepts UPS and Fedex shipments for me.  Much of the merchandise I purchase, whether for woodworking or other, is delivered to me that way.  Products/merchandise that are large and/or heavy are delivered to my home.

My Choice lets me find out when I can go pick up the merchandise that is not delivered to my home, and to change delivery to or from my home.  I have never had a problem with something not being delivered to me.

One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.

Steve


Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 12:29 AM »
I have been a UPS My Choice customer for several years, and it is valuable to me.  I live in a remote area where I don't get mail service.  I have a mail delivery box at a store that is 15 miles away from me that also accepts UPS and Fedex shipments for me.  Much of the merchandise I purchase, whether for woodworking or other, is delivered to me that way.  Products/merchandise that are large and/or heavy are delivered to my home.

My Choice lets me find out when I can go pick up the merchandise that is not delivered to my home, and to change delivery to or from my home.  I have never had a problem with something not being delivered to me.

One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.

Steve



 The reports I'm getting are that the cards have been stolen. In every instance, these were not orders placed by any of my existing customers. When the card is stolen, they use that info, but use their own email address and phone number to redirect and get updated tracking info. Perhaps the most frustrating of all is that the credit card companies/banks don't lift a finger to help the shipper and report this to the authorities, actually they run like a  when asked to do so.

B
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Offline Paul G

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 01:01 AM »
I didn't know of this feature, there's plenty of times I wish I could change the shipping address midstream simply because often when placing the order I'm not sure where I'll be to receive it. So I typically default to my residence but UPS is in the bad habit of leaving stuff outside my door. To make matters worse our neighborhood has occasionally been hit by a package thief who simply follows big brown around and helps himself, neighbor even got the prick on camera. Regardless, it's absurd the seller isn't notified of a change of address, at that point UPS should be liable but no doubt they've covered themselves in the fine print.
+1

Offline GrinningShark

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2014, 03:24 AM »
I use the service also, but not to redirect packages.  I like how their app allows notifies me of upcoming deliveries and also allows me to pick a delivery time window or tell the driver where to leave a package on my property.  Since I am legit, if someone else were to signup for this service and attempt to use my address to signup for the service themselves, I will be notified.  I find that to be a good thing.  Been on the program since it was introduced over a year ago.  Note that some of the features of the service do require a paid subscription or one time payments.

Honestly, if a business were to block a legit customer just because they use the service for the couple of things ai mentioned above, that would be a shame.  I have bought a few thousand bucks work of stuff from both Bob and Sean and it has been handy getting the delivery alerts and notificatioms without having to do anything at all.  And, being able to tell tne driver where to leave a package has been handy.  Until this program, our driver was lazy and would just dump a package in fromt of our garage and I missed a delivery one day and came home to a package soaked in the rain.  Now I have it set to leave om the porch if we are not there (although we are there for the pricey stuff).  Part of the problem too, is that half the time the drivers do not ring the bell, they just drop the box and run.  The only time I have been asked to sign is when a dealer has flagged a package as requiring a signature.

If a business were to block me just because I am on the service, they would lose my business.  Seems harsh, but I am an honest customer and it would be harsh to get punished because of other dishonest fraudsters.

Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2014, 03:44 AM »
So I typically default to my residence but UPS is in the bad habit of leaving stuff outside my door.

I've seen a fair bit of this in the UK as well with various carriers.

Several times I've come home to find expensive items on my front door with the added insult of the online delivery status showing 'my' signature. I usually find it's worse during holiday seasons when extra drivers are drafted in or when firms have short term driver contracts.

Should be liable but no doubt they've covered themselves in the fine print.

Yup, I've had to go through the fine print several times myself and it is shocking where a carriers liability ends.

A tip for the UK members on here, one thing to note with some UK carriers is that if the carrier doesn't have the exact delivery address (as given by you) in their system and needs to amend their records, even slightly then their insurance is null and void in the event of loss. 

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2014, 04:38 AM »
One thing I have not seen in this discussion is how the "bad guy" finds out that there is a shipment he can divert?  Is it being purchased with a stolen credit card or stolen information?  If it is stolen information, who's computer is being hacked?  UPS?  The dealer?  The customer?  The shipment info has to come from somewhere.  My Choice requires that you log into it if it doesn't recognize the computer that is accessing it; in other words, if I use my netbook computer while I'm traveling instead of my home computer, I have to provide my user name and password to log in and check or change anything.
The croocks have a fledgind market of both card holder and PII data available on the black market after the massive data breaches that have hit us in recent years.

They basically purchase a dump of cards with address and cardholder name info and go shopping for high-value merchandise that is easy to sell and use the stolen, but correct cardholder information during the checkout process except putting in their own phone/email address and then redirect at the shipping company once they see that the package has left the merchant from tracking information. Depending on if organized crime is involved or not they redirect to either package mules (people who are recruited to act as packet logistics assistants for a small wage, typically dumb house wives, unemployed, etc.) or to empty houses on quiet streets where collection is safer.

Organized crime is very efficient in their logistics for example in this case where items were bought in Denmark and shipped to packet mules in Poland and forwarded to Lithuania / White Russia / Ukraine hitherto.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline RKA

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2014, 07:44 AM »
So if I'm understanding this correctly, if the CC processors and companies kept approved email addresses and phone numbers on file and that was required and verified at checkout, that should minimize the issues?

I think retailers might be able to forbid the package redirection for the short term, but eventually legitimate use by customers may force a change in that policy.  I haven't signed up for My Choice yet.  I remember objecting to something in the terms (can't recall what that was), and since I didn't have an immediate need, I just dismissed it. Normally I plan my purchases so they arrive when someone is home that evening.  But the day will come where I will need to redirect to the office or my parents house.  It's just a matter of time.
-Raj

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 08:12 AM »
Well, collecting and keeping track of something like an email address or phone number @ issuer banks could theoretically be used for such things as well, but frankly that information is considered so volatile that it is not even collected most of the time. Also implementing Yet Another Verification Method requirement will push merchants to the brink of suicide...  [unsure]

I for example have several email addresses for online use only and also multiple phone numbers I can be reached. It would be a nightmare to try to remember which ones I have signed up with which card brand and webshop.

Fraudulent use of credit cards would be most efficiently mitigated by having everyone signed up for Verified by Visa and Mastercard Secure Code hardholder ID verification services. This way even if your details were stolen the crooks would get stuck @ VbV/McSC authentication in most cases and fail the authorization.

The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2014, 10:48 AM »
I use the service also, but not to redirect packages.  I like how their app allows notifies me of upcoming deliveries and also allows me to pick a delivery time window or tell the driver where to leave a package on my property.  Since I am legit, if someone else were to signup for this service and attempt to use my address to signup for the service themselves, I will be notified.  I find that to be a good thing.  Been on the program since it was introduced over a year ago.  Note that some of the features of the service do require a paid subscription or one time payments.

Honestly, if a business were to block a legit customer just because they use the service for the couple of things ai mentioned above, that would be a shame.  I have bought a few thousand bucks work of stuff from both Bob and Sean and it has been handy getting the delivery alerts and notificatioms without having to do anything at all.  And, being able to tell tne driver where to leave a package has been handy.  Until this program, our driver was lazy and would just dump a package in fromt of our garage and I missed a delivery one day and came home to a package soaked in the rain.  Now I have it set to leave om the porch if we are not there (although we are there for the pricey stuff).  Part of the problem too, is that half the time the drivers do not ring the bell, they just drop the box and run.  The only time I have been asked to sign is when a dealer has flagged a package as requiring a signature.

If a business were to block me just because I am on the service, they would lose my business.  Seems harsh, but I am an honest customer and it would be harsh to get punished because of other dishonest fraudsters.


  I so do hear you and other legit customers about the convenience derived from this program, but for the amount of fraud occurring and all of it high value items - XL's, the way MY CHOICE is currently configured, most importantly that the SELLER IS NOT NOTIFIED IF THERE IS A REDIRECT  is the glaring loophole that makes offering MY CHOICE literally unsustainable for my business to survive. Any and every dealer knows how may XL's you need to sell to make up for that loss AND paying shipping costs on top of  that.

 Two months ago, I got a call from a a man - not my customer, asking about a package that was delivered to him  - name and address were correct.  I asked him to open the box and sure enough it was an XL 700. I then checked and saw that he was charged for the item. I said thanks, notify your credit card company about the stolen card and we will issue a UPS pick up label for shipping back to my Ohio warehouse. Well, for whatever reason, we did not ship that label for another few days. He then called me and said that he was just notified by his credit card company and they informed him that his card was tried and declined when the thief was attempting to pay the UPS for the MY DIRECT program to redirect to another address. In this instance, I was lucky as it was a timing issue. In this instance, the thieves messed up, but again, UPS CHOICE was  the program that would have enabled him to steal the tool.
 
 Actually, if I had the time, money and patience - all of which I don't have, I would speak to a lawyer and file a class action suit against UPS for continuing to offer a program that so blatantly and easily enables fraud. I would like to see MY CHOICE continue, but please modify it so that the seller is informed when there is a redirect.
 And, again, as mentioned, if any of my customers need a redirect or hold, they can call or email me and I will (and have) make the changes, no problema.
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2014, 11:22 AM »
Bob, I doubt many of the supporters of the re-direct option realize you are the one who looses
when this happens as part of a fraudulent purchase.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2014, 11:30 AM »
Bob, I doubt many of the supporters of the re-direct option realize you are the one who looses
when this happens as part of a fraudulent purchase.

  Good point, Michael.

 Correct on fraudulent charges, the dealer is left holding the bag and is totally out of pocket for the items stolen. No recourse, currently.

 Bob
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Offline Wonderwino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2014, 11:41 AM »
Does UPS provide the shipper with the redirected address?  Or is this a "privacy issue?"   [sad]  If they do, it should be easy to get the FBI involved if it is interstate felony fraud.
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Offline billbunton

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2014, 11:59 AM »
Just to throw in my two cents worth, as a My Choice customer I think this ability is great.  I've never used it, the last time I needed it it didn't exist, but would have saved me loss of some items, and would have saved a vendor from losing my business forever.

I ordered a couple items that were back-ordered.  When they hadn't arrived by the time I moved, I emailed the vendor my new address, and asked by be shipped to the new address.  After the move, I got notification from the vendor that the items had shipped, and to my previous address.  I again emailed the vendor, asking to have it redirected to the new address, and in the meantime ordered another set.  I was charged shipping (which was supposed to be free), plus expedited shipping (which I hadn't asked for), and never did get the original order (later I was told the emails were never received, and I should have called instead).

I also like very much being able to delay delivery.  If I'm going to be out of town, rather than having a pile of boxes left on my door, I can simply set a vacation period and nothing will be delivered until after I'm back.

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2014, 03:06 PM »
Due to the idiotic delivery schedules of the packet companies (no residential evening deliveries in Finland) I order all my stuff to the office where I have a reception 8-17 every day to sign for the packages and not have to worry about parcels left @ the door.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline GrinningShark

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2014, 10:18 PM »
I so do hear you and other legit customers about the convenience derived from this program, but for the amount of fraud occurring and all of it high value items - XL's, the way MY CHOICE is currently configured, most importantly that the SELLER IS NOT NOTIFIED IF THERE IS A REDIRECT  is the glaring loophole that makes offering MY CHOICE literally unsustainable for my business to survive. Any and every dealer knows how may XL's you need to sell to make up for that loss AND paying shipping costs on top of  that.

 Two months ago, I got a call from a a man - not my customer, asking about a package that was delivered to him  - name and address were correct.  I asked him to open the box and sure enough it was an XL 700. I then checked and saw that he was charged for the item. I said thanks, notify your credit card company about the stolen card and we will issue a UPS pick up label for shipping back to my Ohio warehouse. Well, for whatever reason, we did not ship that label for another few days. He then called me and said that he was just notified by his credit card company and they informed him that his card was tried and declined when the thief was attempting to pay the UPS for the MY DIRECT program to redirect to another address. In this instance, I was lucky as it was a timing issue. In this instance, the thieves messed up, but again, UPS CHOICE was  the program that would have enabled him to steal the tool.
 
 Actually, if I had the time, money and patience - all of which I don't have, I would speak to a lawyer and file a class action suit against UPS for continuing to offer a program that so blatantly and easily enables fraud. I would like to see MY CHOICE continue, but please modify it so that the seller is informed when there is a redirect.
 And, again, as mentioned, if any of my customers need a redirect or hold, they can call or email me and I will (and have) make the changes, no problema.


UPS could change a few things to reduce or eliminate the fraud.  They could just check the credit card address against the address being registered for My Choice.  Also, a card could be sent with a code to the address that is being registered and require that before the service is activated.  Or, although this could be annoying... require a new signup to go to a UPS store amd present a valid ID with the right address on it to complete activation of the service.  Many ways to fix this... 

I do not use the redirect feature and feel for the businesses that lose money on this kind of fraud.  It is crazy that businesses are left holding the bag.

Offline icecactus

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2014, 07:34 AM »
Bob, I am curious as to what good notifying the seller would do?
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Offline JD2720

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2014, 08:22 AM »
Well, the dealers that are getting ripped off by the UPS system & doing nothing are getting what you deserve.
One dealer even stated that he did not have the time to fight it.
WOW, must be making gobs of money.

UPS is an accesssory to interstate theft. That is a Federal Crime.
File a complaint with the US attorney's office.
Also it is not hard to find an attorney to file a class action lawsuit against a large corporation.

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2014, 08:42 AM »
Well, the dealers that are getting ripped off by the UPS system & doing nothing are getting what you deserve.
One dealer even stated that he did not have the time to fight it.
WOW, must be making gobs of money.

UPS is an accesssory to interstate theft. That is a Federal Crime.
File a complaint with the US attorney's office.
Also it is not hard to find an attorney to file a class action lawsuit against a large corporation.

 Well, that would be me and no not making gobs of money.  And, as mentioned, you have to sell quite a few XL's to make up for one that is stolen; that's painful.
The credit card companies offer zilch help and tracing the phony one time use emails and phone numbers are impossible, especially since you are usually informed months after the fact.  However, on the last stolen XL, we have tracking from UPS to a condo complex and filing a report to the state's AG is exactly what is in progress. Why the credit card companies and UPS/FedEx are not in the lead in fighting this battle - they have huge data bases at their finger tips, is beyond me. Again, in the last case where we have some definite information, we are persuing it, but again, the cc companies really need to take the lead here.

Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
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