Author Topic: A warning to dealers..  (Read 22223 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2653
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2014, 08:52 AM »


In Australia Tap and Go has recently been introduced for electronic card transactions up to (in most cases) A$100.00.

The state Commissioner for the Victorian Police force last week reported a significant increase in credit card thefts from homes, vehicles and letter boxes (new cards are posted). He was very critical of the banks who although they accept liability for customers, appear not to report fraudulent use to the police unless it is of a significant amount. Hence a lot of fraud and theft is going on under the radar.

Now I know $100A will not buy much in the way of Festool tools but it will buy some accessories!    [smile]
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 08:56 AM by Untidy Shop »
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2014, 09:03 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.

DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Sean Ackerman

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 1640
  • Festool Dealer near NYC - 10,000 sq feet!
    • Festoolproducts.com
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2014, 09:15 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month
Mistakes happen and any carrier is prone to them.  I wouldn't say that's the norm with Fedex, but we also don't ship Fedex per SOP.  I do recall an old shipment that got delayed with the status of "Train Fire & Derailment - Package Delayed".
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img

Offline Sean Ackerman

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 1640
  • Festool Dealer near NYC - 10,000 sq feet!
    • Festoolproducts.com
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2014, 09:19 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.
Stoli, you got it.  That's the point here.  The dealer, who is on the hook, needs to be given a notification and a heads up that the sale has been modified before the product has reached the end user.  The dealer then has time to reach out to the customer, which would result in contacting either the actual card holder (and subsequent cancellation of the order... we get product back and lose shipping) or contract with the thief.  I can tell you form multiple experiences, within seconds of being on the phone with a crook, it's clear as day.  A simple hello is almost enough to tell.

It's interesting to hear some of you talk about class action lawsuits.  I have no experience there, but I wonder if it's something to shine light on for a firm and see if they see it as a worthy project to investigate.

Happy Fathers day all.
Buy Festool Online" class="bbc_img

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2014, 09:28 AM »
Surely if you (the dealer) pay FedEx (or whoever) to deliver a package to a specific address, and they fail to deliver it to the address you specified, that's a breach of contract?

A customer shouldn't be able to re-direct a shipment, as the contract of delivery is between the dealer and the carrier. That contract has nothing whatsoever to do with the end recipient.

I'm probably (definitely) over-simplifying the problem, but it seems perfectly obvious and straightforward to me...



Oh, and on a related note - maybe things are different in the UK. I always thought that if something similar happened over here, the CC company was ultimately liable?
Festoolian since February 2006

TS55R EBQ saw - CTL26 - CTL Mini - OF1400EBQ router - KS120 Kapex SCMS - ETS150/3 sander - RO90 sander - DF500 Domino - PDC18/4 drill - PSC420 jigsaw - OFK500 trimmer

Wish list (in no particular order!): Anything not listed above....

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3394
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2014, 09:33 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month
Mistakes happen and any carrier is prone to them.  I wouldn't say that's the norm with Fedex, but we also don't ship Fedex per SOP.  I do recall an old shipment that got delayed with the status of "Train Fire & Derailment - Package Delayed".

What does SOP mean?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3394
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2014, 09:35 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.



Well done Stoli  [thumbs up]

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 3003
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2014, 09:38 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.



Well done Stoli  [thumbs up]


 Agree with all of the above, BUT at the least, the shipper must be notified. As Sean mentioned, one call to the thief and you van tell that this guy - USUALLY with a very heavy accent is not John Smith from Main St Ohio.

B
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3394
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2014, 09:51 AM »
Surely if you (the dealer) pay FedEx (or whoever) to deliver a package to a specific address, and they fail to deliver it to the address you specified, that's a breach of contract?

A customer shouldn't be able to re-direct a shipment, as the contract of delivery is between the dealer and the carrier. That contract has nothing whatsoever to do with the end recipient.

I'm probably (definitely) over-simplifying the problem, but it seems perfectly obvious and straightforward to me...



Oh, and on a related note - maybe things are different in the UK. I always thought that if something similar happened over here, the CC company was ultimately liable?

You'd think...

On the other hand, I've ordered stuff from suppliers who think their responsibility ends with turning the goods over to the shipper.

I used the FedEx version of re-direct years ago when the shipper put the wrong Zip code on the package and delivery failed. It was about to go back to the shipper when I found out and got the re-route sorted. I'm not sure now but it's possible I had to get the shipper involved in the re-direct. I did have to talk with them to figure out what went wrong.

Those were time sensitive supplies and if it had been UPS (at that time UPS reported package status only at the end of the day) instead of FedEx the project would have failed. Also, if I had depended on the supplier to sort it out the project would have failed.

So, I see both sides here. The re-direct protects me from lackadaisical venders but it puts good venders at risk.

Offline John_

  • Posts: 159
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2014, 10:28 AM »
Bob - what did UPS say when you mentioned your concerns to them?

Offline Rick Christopherson

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 1569
    • http://www.rts-engineering.com/
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2014, 11:11 AM »
I hear what you are saying, Bob, but it sounds like you really want more than a notification of a redirect -- you really want veto power or even the ability to recall back to the shipper.

Here are the possible scenarios:

1) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  No notification to shipper, and package is sent to crook.  Bob loses.  This is the current situation.
2) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and package is still sent to crook. Bob loses.
3) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient returns package.  Bob loses shipping on both ends, but not the XL.
4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.
5) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper issues a recall.  Bob loses shipping but not the XL.


Actually, #4 is a completed sale. The buyer (victim of stolen CC) could not claim the loss to his CC company if the goods were shown to be delivered to his address. Even though the CC victim wasn't originally a legitimate buyer at the beginning, he became the equivalent when he accepted the product.

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 3003
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2014, 11:40 AM »
Bob - what did UPS say when you mentioned your concerns to them?

  My warehouse manager spoke to the UPS rep in charge of the fulfillment center and essentially other than implementing the things we are now doing - matching area codes to zip codes, possibly calling a suspect order's phone and holding off on MY CHOICE. They were able to suppy us with the delivered address of the last stolen XL, but then the onus is on me tp persue further - which I will.


Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 11420
  • Another Avatar Coming Soon
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2014, 11:53 AM »
Michael.

SOP= Standard Operating Procedures

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2014, 02:48 PM »

4) After shipping, crook submits a redirect.  UPS informs shipper, and shipper vetoes redirect.  Package is sent to original address where it shows up as an unrequested package.  Original recipient does not return package.  Bob loses.


Actually, #4 is a completed sale. The buyer (victim of stolen CC) could not claim the loss to his CC company if the goods were shown to be delivered to his address. Even though the CC victim wasn't originally a legitimate buyer at the beginning, he became the equivalent when he accepted the product.

From the consumer end, how can we tell the difference between fraud and unsolicited goods?  If a package ends up at my doorstep that I did not order, I am under no obligation to purchase or even return the package.

"Acceptance" is also pretty loose here -- UPS may just leave the package at the house when no one is present.  Does that count as "acceptance"?

Either way, my point was really that vendors really need more than just notification.  I think they need to be able to recall when they suspect fraud.
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3643
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2014, 02:06 PM »
This whole problem seems to be very complicated.  There are many opinions about how to solve.  Some i understand and some leave me more confused.

The one solution that aggravates me is (from some, but not all replies) the attitude that if something goes wrong, the customer will discontinue doing business with the supplier.  A very dogmatic position to say the least.  It was not the suppliers fault.  The supplier is the loser all around.  Would it be a better solution to stop doing business with the shipper, and maybe even the CC who will not help out in any way. 

I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3591
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2014, 02:39 PM »
I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

Tinker


My bank (USAA) has been wonderful when I have been hit with fraudulent charges.  They even called me one afternoon and asked where I was.  I told them, "Sitting in my living room."  "You're not in the UK?" "No, I'm in Virginia."  The bottom line is that my card was cancelled and replaced immediately and no fraudulent charges have ever hit my pocket.  I can't say enough good about their services.  It appears to me that the shipping companies that allow this to occur without permission from the vendor are the problem. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline shed9

  • Posts: 457
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2014, 02:57 PM »
My bank (USAA) has been wonderful when I have been hit with fraudulent charges.  They even called me one afternoon and asked where I was.  I told them, "Sitting in my living room."  "You're not in the UK?" "No, I'm in Virginia."  The bottom line is that my card was cancelled and replaced immediately and no fraudulent charges have ever hit my pocket.  I can't say enough good about their services.  It appears to me that the shipping companies that allow this to occur without permission from the vendor are the problem.

That is actually quite common for a lot of banks, the problem is that they are not addressing why they need that service in the first place.

Offline Stoli

  • Posts: 354
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2014, 03:39 PM »
Note that Bob (a dealer) intended this to be a warning to other dealers.

If it was your card used in this type of fraud, the bank would likely cancel the charge. However, the XL has still been shipped to the thief, and I seriously doubt that the bank is going to pay the dealer anything.  So the dealer loses.  This was Bob's warning.
DF500; OF1400; ETS125; CXS; installer Kit;  Kapex

Offline shed9

  • Posts: 457
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #78 on: June 18, 2014, 04:34 PM »
Note that Bob (a dealer) intended this to be a warning to other dealers.

If it was your card used in this type of fraud, the bank would likely cancel the charge. However, the XL has still been shipped to the thief, and I seriously doubt that the bank is going to pay the dealer anything.  So the dealer loses.  This was Bob's warning.

I think most of us understood that Stoli [smile], however this isn't always a victimless crime from a customer perspective, hence the related comments.


Offline Reiska

  • Posts: 1160
  • Hackers build things, Crackers break them.
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2014, 02:36 AM »
I know the CC's have a tremendous leverage and it really gets my dander up when they will not help. My own CC has notified me almost instantly when a fraudulent purchase was made.  The most recent was to the tune of $3600.  While we were discussing the problem, the lady said, "OMG, here is another one for the same amount showing up on the screen!"  I don't know what they did on their end but they cancelled my card right away and sent me a new one (different #) Apparently they don't do that all the time from what I am reading here. 

It depends on the issuing bank how they set up their fraud control rules. In Finland we do very proactive card closures and re-issuance on the slightest indication of the card number or mag.stripe image being exposed to criminals.

We receive these indications both from the authorities and card brands as well as through our own heuristic and behavioral monitoring systems and act accordingly. Some banks have higher risk acceptance limits and especially in large card holder data leakage cases the renewals need to be planned and risk assessed thoroughly due to logistics and related costs involved in manufacturing massive amounts of new cards.

What you describe is a typical example of proactive monitoring kicking in when a non-conforming transaction has tripped the behavioral monitoring system alert and the CC rep called you before the second attempt even came through. In these cases there are really no other options than cancel the current card and re-issue a new card when active exploitation is underway.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline Bob Marino

  • Festool Dealer
  • *
  • Posts: 3003
    • bobmarinosbesttools.com
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2014, 10:15 AM »
 

 Here is a PM I sent to a customer about a week ago -  he gave me permission to share with Forum members.

 I wanted to PM  you about the MY CHOICE thing before I write another response on the FOG. I very much appreciate a customer wanting to have this option and I take very, very seriously anything that limits or negatively affects their buying experience from me. And of  course, the overwhelming amount of customers, like yourself are honest people, who would never think of using this program fraudulently. However, it seems there are a tiny amount of people who have discovered this program and this has enabled them to blatantly and successfully steal from dealers. We have discussed this with our rep at UPS and for now, having that huge loophole of not even informing or getting the dealer's permission, needs to be closed, so in affect, we decided - with some hesitation to block that program.

 The rate of stolen tools, in this case  XL's, at this point is literally unsustainable. It's somewhat akin to having a major renovation to your house with a half dozen people having your keys and months after having finished up, you find something stolen and the next month another item stolen and so on. After making a report to the police, you'd change the keys. Right now, some people have that key in hand and I must change the key.

   Best Regards,

 Bob


 As an aside, about a week ago, I received a phone call from another Festool dealer whom I have known for many years. Of all things, he asked if I were having an issue with credit card fraud! Nope, he did not read the posts here on the FOG, this was totally out of the blue.  In almost every one of the  (6) instances he mentioned, the item stolen was the XL. He has since tightened up some security (holding orders over a certain amount, calling for some verification, etc.) and has not had a problem since. He uses FedEx, but was also unaware  - of the customer redirect program. He's checking with his FedEx rep to see if that was the vehicle used to enable the fraud and will get back to me on that. He thanked me for that heads up.

 As mentioned here by myself and others, the dealer was left on the hook for the XL's and had zero help from the credit card companies. This lack of assistance in reporting to the authorities fraud and criminality is in my opinion and should be a criminal offense in itself. At the very least, they have (along with programs like MY CHOICE) enabled the thieves and helped to make credit card fraud the problem it is. Sometimes, its the simplest of things (reporting the details - where the stolen item was delivered to, IP address, phone numbers, etc.) that can have the most dramatic of effects.

Bob
Festool  Dealer since 2002; user well before that!
            http://bobmarinosbesttools.com
                   Service As It Should Be

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3643
Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2014, 11:57 AM »
Quote from Bob Marino >>> As mentioned here by myself and others, the dealer was left on the hook for the XL's and had zero help from the credit card companies. This lack of assistance in reporting to the authorities fraud and criminality is in my opinion and should be a criminal offense in itself. At the very least, they have (along with programs like MY CHOICE) enabled the thieves and helped to make credit card fraud the problem it is.  <<<

I agree to that.
The Cc's can come down on us very hard if a mistook is made.  I learned something many moons ago (way back when I was only 38) that if my accounts are in the same bank as my credit card, the CC can raid my checking account.  I was pretty angry when I told them to raid my savings account instead of the checking.  That way, the problem gets sorted between two of us instead a whole group when checks start bouncing like rubber balls.  "Oh, we can't do that." 

"Well then give me a call to let me know there is a problem."

"We can't do that either."

"How much do I have in each of my accounts?"

"Why?"

"I am withdrawing EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW."

End of problem.  For the last 100 years or so since, I have made certain to NOT have any credit card with the same bank as my checking account.  For good measure, I don't have my savings account with the same bank as my credit cards either.  Every now and then, thru the years, a couple of my credit card banks have merged.  If I have any of my savings or checking with either of the merged banks, some changes are made IMMEDIATELY. It has happened.
Tinker

Wayne H. Tinker