Author Topic: A warning to dealers..  (Read 21080 times)

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Offline Bob Marino

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A warning to dealers..
« on: June 13, 2014, 01:53 AM »
  This comes as a piggyback to the recent discussion about stolen tools on Ebay.  Apparently UPS has a program which allows customers, NOT THE SELLER, to redirect a package after it has shipped. Up until recently, when a package is shipped, the only way to reroute is for the Shipper to request a UPS intercept. Now, with UPS MY CHOICE,  a customer can contact UPS and have the package intercepted  and shipped to another location - without the Shipper being notified. Well, on the face of it, sounds pretty customer friendly, but it doesn't take much imagination of those intent on stealing to turn this into a cash cow.

 

  I would urge dealers here - and elsewhere, who use UPS, to ensure that they the shipper be notified if a package is being redirected or better yet, to not allow MY CHOICE as an option for their packages.

  Bob
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 02:26 AM by Bob Marino »
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Offline Kev

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Re: A warning to dealers...credit card fraud........
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 02:21 AM »
Sadly services such as Shipito also have the potential to be abused for scams in a similar way to what Bob describes ... but they are a great way for international buyers to consolidate freight and leverage the service's bulk discount shipping rates.

If a seller is shipping to one of these services and does not already know the buyer, it's a good idea to ensure you've got the actual buyers home address and even potentially request a proof of Id.

Banking and financial services industries seem to take little responsibility for the absolutely massive fraud landscape they themselves have introduced with credit cards. They take little responsibility and place most of the risk on the seller.

Offline Reiska

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 03:00 AM »
Unfortunately this service is already actively exploited by some credit card fraudsters.

Unless the shipper can prohibit UPS offering this service to the customer there is little that the card brands, merchants or acquirers can do to prevent this type of fraud since the goods are ordered to the legitimate card holders address and after the fraud ranking has been done at transaction time and the authorization has been given by the issuing bank there is nothing the financial institutions can do.

As a merchant I would either find out if there is a box to tick in the senders paperwork to prohibit UPS redirection or change shipping company to one that doesn't have this service if you want to mitigate the risk.
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Offline Alex

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 03:23 AM »
Sounds a bit TOO customer friendly if you ask me. Sure, changing the shipping address afterwards might be useful on occasion, but if you weigh the number of clients who would actually use this verses the potential for misuse, then it doesn't look too good.

Especially when packages could be of some value, clear set conditions should be set before the buy, and not be able to be changed in transit.

Offline wow

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 03:52 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
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Online jobsworth

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 04:33 AM »
Thx for the heads up Bob.

I wonder what me as  a customer can do to prevent some fraudster from stealing my stuff?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:36 AM by jobsworth »
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Offline shed9

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 05:04 AM »
Sounds a bit TOO customer friendly if you ask me. Sure, changing the shipping address afterwards might be useful on occasion, but if you weigh the number of clients who would actually use this verses the potential for misuse, then it doesn't look too good.

Especially when packages could be of some value, clear set conditions should be set before the buy, and not be able to be changed in transit.

I totally agree, I also can't see the benefit of changing address outweighing the risk to both supplier and end customer.


Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 05:25 AM »
  I'm writing this post  chiefly to notify dealers of this program and to inform them that, as a dealer, you can request from UPS that this service not be offered to those ordering from you and perhaps put some pressure on UPS not to get rid of this program but at least to modify it so that a shipper is notified immediately before an address change can be made.  I can not see a reason why the shipper should not be notified of a change in shipping.
 Card holders  are always (rightly so) protected against loss, by the issuing bank.

Bob
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Online jobsworth

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 06:37 AM »
Thx Bob
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 06:51 AM »
To me the whole program seems like "a tail wagging the dog" designed to benefit a tiny amount of buyers.  With the usually short fulfillment time for orders - typically just a day or two, and also short shipping times, it would seem to me that that the risk of having such a program will only benefit those who choose to order without pre planning where they will be in about  a week and also those who have a legitimate emergency.

Peter


Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 07:29 AM »
To me the whole program seems like "a tail wagging the dog" designed to benefit a tiny amount of buyers.  With the usually short fulfillment time for orders - typically just a day or two, and also short shipping times, it would seem to me that that the risk of having such a program will only benefit those who choose to order without pre planning where they will be in about  a week and also those who have a legitimate emergency.

Peter


It's strange Peter and you make a good point.  The purpose of the program is a bit silly and I don't see it being legitimately used by many.  We've ensured that this service is no longer available to our buyers, which does stink for the few of you that may find it useful, as we were caught out a few times earlier this year by fraud. 
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2014, 08:02 AM »
I have to chime in here. I am a UPS Choice Customer and love the benefits of it! In fact, I have an order scheduled to be delivered today from Tool Nut (Sean) and just checked and verified that I have the ability to change the delivery address if I want to. It may be that if I proceeded through the menus it would at some point prevent me from executing the change (I am home today so do not wish to change it). I have also purchased a number of items from Bob over the years.

While I understand the concerns and challenges you dealers face this is a hugely convenient tool (pun intended) for me. I travel a great deal for my work and more than several times I have had to request my packages be redirected once shipped. Frankly, a dealer who prohibited me from using my Choice benefits might lose my business for that purchase and maybe more.

From my standpoint if a dealer elects to prohibit address changes and that is not made very obvious to me at time of purchase and it is a circumstance where address change is needed I would be a VERY unhappy customer and would likely never purchase from that dealer again. As dealers you are also painfully aware that 1 unhappy customer will tell 7 to 9 other people. Depending on my travel schedule if notified at time of purchase could not be used I would simply purchase elsewhere.

I share this because you guys (Bob and Sean) are outstanding dealers and think you should be aware that your reactions to one problem (depending on how many UPS Choice members purchase from you) might cause unintended consequences. 

Thanks for all you do!
  Jack

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2014, 08:16 AM »
Jack, no way!  Right off the bat someone who uses it.  Ha, how about that. 

Interesting note that it seems to be active.  I just double checked to ensure it's in fact not, thank you for the heads up.

From our perspective, and I'd be curious what Bob has to say, CSD (customer service department) tells me the percentage of orders that utilize my choice that have NOT been fraud, is nearly non existent.  You may be one of the many few.

When I take taht into consideration, it's tough to say yes to a program like that.  I'm sure you can understand.

I'm curious with your last paragraph.  You mentioned taht dealers who don't offer this service would lose your business and in fact make you an unhappy customer.  Have you found, with other purchases, that ALL UPS accounts offer this service.  Possibly it's a default feature that has to be turned off, not initially turned on, so you've been able to use it when and where you please.
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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2014, 08:32 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 08:35 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 08:42 AM »
Sean,

I haven't paid a lot of attention to it but I don't recall a UPS shipment that did not have the "delivery change" button on it. I only click on the button when I need to use it though so it is entirely possible some functionality is restricted based on dealer elections.... I just checked my package again after your change and it shows delivery address change not available due to dealer request but all other options are available. Still, if I got called to leave town yesterday I would have changed the delivery address to my son's who lives several miles from me as I don't want the high dollar order coming from you to sit on my front porch nor would I want to change delivery date as I would be back late Friday evening and would want to play with my toy Saturday morning ;-) Under the aforementioned circumstance had I found out about your restriction only when I needed to change it I would have come close to blowing a gasket. I could still have had it delivered to the local UPS Store but UPS pops you $5 and the Store adds $5 as well.

Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack

Jack, no way!  Right off the bat someone who uses it.  Ha, how about that. 

Interesting note that it seems to be active.  I just double checked to ensure it's in fact not, thank you for the heads up.

From our perspective, and I'd be curious what Bob has to say, CSD (customer service department) tells me the percentage of orders that utilize my choice that have NOT been fraud, is nearly non existent.  You may be one of the many few.

When I take taht into consideration, it's tough to say yes to a program like that.  I'm sure you can understand.

I'm curious with your last paragraph.  You mentioned taht dealers who don't offer this service would lose your business and in fact make you an unhappy customer.  Have you found, with other purchases, that ALL UPS accounts offer this service.  Possibly it's a default feature that has to be turned off, not initially turned on, so you've been able to use it when and where you please.

Offline Sean Ackerman

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 08:43 AM »
Thanks so much for the insight Jack.
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 08:47 AM »
Of course the dealer can also be contacted and asked to redirect.  Just my thought.

Peter

Agreed, a person with a proven track record like Jack that shouldn't be a problem to allow a redirect.  
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Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 08:54 AM »
.......Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack



Well, you are now aware of the glaring shortcoming of this program, do you still really think this it is outstanding?
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Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 08:56 AM »
 
 Jack,

 Thanks for the kind words earlier, but as Peter mentioned, any package can redirected by the shipper/dealer upon a customer's request. Not 15 minutes ago, I received  an email from a customer requesting an address change. All that needs to be done is to call or email the shipper/dealer.
 Yes, of course MY CHOICE  can be a convenience in some cases and I would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more accepting of that program if the dealer/shipper needed to be notified beforehand, so he can verify that it is the actual card holder, not some thief who is requesting that address change, instead of finding out a month or 2 later that the card was stolen and you as a dealer basically are on the hook for that stolen product.  

  Bob
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Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 09:03 AM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...

I think Fed Ex has had that option for years. At least they used too...

Offline rvieceli

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 09:13 AM »
Yup... FedEx has it too. FedEx Delivery Manager

Offline Bob Marino

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 09:30 AM »
  Just another comment - and I have plenty, believe me.  My concern is that MY CHOICE has now been made into a tool which enables a bad guy to steal with impunity. I say that as a dealer who has had some XL's stolen recently using MY CHOICE.

 Bob
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Offline lawhoo

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Re: A warning to dealers
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 10:45 AM »
It's not customer-friendly if it leads to theft.  For most, it turns out to be either an irrelevant or a customer-hostile "service".  I realize that there are the rare customers, like Jack, who actively use this option, but it seems (at least anecdotally) that it's used more to redirect packages from the people who pay to the ones who steal, leaving the paying customer and the dealer as victims.

Offline gkaiseril

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 11:04 AM »
UPS and I believe FedEx on the delivery attempt notice allow for a change of address but it also needs to be signed by the customer. Granted this is not much of deterrent but if the driver scans or keeps the notice it is some documentation.

Another way to use this would to only allow changes in address to a UPS or FedEx store or distribution site where the recipient needs to not only sign for the package but also show a photo ID.

For large dollar purchases I either have them shipped for pickup at a local store or to work.
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Offline Claimdude

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 11:07 AM »
Brice,

As a customer I am still of the opinion it is outstanding service. If I were a dealer probably not so much. The gotcha for me in this is the lack of information up front about the limitations (rightly so) for some dealers. Now I know a simple call to Bob or Sean would get the redirect done but frankly wouldn't have thought of that prior to today AND that when I buy from them in the future I will need to contact then directly for package redirect. Information is KING!

Thank you guys for all you do!!

Jack


.......Full disclosure up front before order is placed and/or exempting established customers from the restriction is a much better solution in my view. The UPS Choice program is outstanding service in my opinion.

Jack



Well, you are now aware of the glaring shortcoming of this program, do you still really think this it is outstanding?

Offline ivanhoe

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2014, 11:28 AM »
Great info here! I used the re-direct function with FedEx recently when I had some expensive tools being delivered that had to have
a signature upon receipt. (Package was delayed, and no one would have been home at the new time) I  had it re-directed to a local FedEx
center, not another residential address. It was very convenient and I assume somewhat safer for the dealer and customer as I still needed to provide I.D.
to pick up the packages.  

I do see the dealer's point of view on this and thanks to the info here, now know I can call the dealer and get the redirect completed. Up until
now I didn't know that route was possible.

Rod
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 11:31 AM by Ivanhoe »

Offline wrightwoodwork

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2014, 11:52 AM »
To me what is wrong with having good neighbors if I'm not going to be in any of the neighbour's will take the package in. It might be old fashioned but works. It's always handy to have someone that you can trust to collect things

Offline jimmylittle

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2014, 12:04 PM »
There is always potential for abuse, but I don't think new ideas should be stifled because we're afraid of a few bad apples.

I travel for work (construction producer for home makeover TV), and there have been many a time when I needed to change the delivery address, sometimes even the delivery state!  It's a convenience for customers.

I don't think the dealers have too much to worry about, since you need a tracking number and a UPS login account to make the change.  If a thief has that information, they probably have a bunch of other info about you, too.  It's probably on par with the UPS guy leaving a package in front of your garage door and a thief wandering by and picking it up.
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Offline johninthecamper

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Re: A warning to dealers..
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 12:16 PM »
I'd be switching to FedEx ground in a heartbeat...
fedex ground has taken 12 bus days,with 3 to go,for my pkg to go thirty frigging miles.
calender day to calender day,im looking at is over three weeks,add four days to pack and ship in the begining.
totals almost a month